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Old 3rd August 2023, 12:02 AM   #121
Skeptic Ginger
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I didn't say you did.
The exchange went thus:
Originally Posted by SG
No crow on the menu today, there was no reason he didn't move sooner. And now there is more of a time crunch ... could be a real mess.
Originally Posted by Stacy
You're making an assumption. And the claims were that Garland would never indict Trump not whether he did it fast enough or not.
Perhaps I didn't track the exchange back far enough but that seems to me to be part of your argument against my making unfounded assumptions about Garland's prosecution delay.

I get it you think people shouldn't have an opinion on this because we don't know. Well that's crap. People have lots of opinions without knowing all the circumstances.

I look at what I see and Garland, yes needed to take time and care. But the other side of that decision is the weight one applies to the mess created when Trump's trial gives him excuse after excuse to delay the proceedings well into the election.

It's going to be a mess. So where is that 'takes time, careful case building' going to be then?


Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
As for the needless delay, should I change that to 'no good reason'? Or IMO it was a mistake?
Again, you are making an assumption as you have no idea what Garland was thinking, what his tactic may have been, or what was going on behind the scenes.
I spelled out the assumption I'm making and it isn't the one you have applied to my opinion.


Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Yes, they did. And the J6 investigation was the biggest and most complex in the country's history which means it took a lot of time to get it right. Rushing it before it was ready and coordinating it with the other investigations took time.

Agreed, it IS A HUGE DEAL! /All the more reason for it not to be rushed. As for what possible reason could Garland taking so long to assign a special counsel, I don't know and you don't know. But do think he had his reasons which we are not privy to.
You are welcome to your opinion, obviously. I think you are neglecting to look at the whole picture, leaving an important factor out while you step ever so lightly, giving Garland the benefit of the doubt for a decision that you don't know what he was thinking either.


Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
It's easy to say 'Garland needed to get this case moving sooner' but that doesn't change the fact that you do not KNOW why he made the timing decisions he did because you don't KNOW what all was happening. I rather suspect Garland KNEW and KNOWS that the primaries and election are looming on the horizon and how important that is. I seriously doubt he was unaware of that!
Round and around here, you can suspect he knows things we don't, and I can conclude he didn't apply enough weight to the election timeline.
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Old 3rd August 2023, 02:55 AM   #122
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Pence tweeted

Quote:
President Trump and his gaggle of crackpot lawyers asked me to reject electoral votes and chaos would have ensued. To keep faith with the oath that I made to the American people and to Almighty God, I did my duty that day.
https://twitter.com/Mike_Pence/statu...GfgPOva4g&s=19
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Old 3rd August 2023, 04:25 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
Once-elected, twice-impeached, thrice indicted.
Should be four times indicted in a few weeks.
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Old 3rd August 2023, 04:49 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Andy_Ross View Post
Do you want that on your tombstone when you get lynched by the MAGA mob?
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Old 3rd August 2023, 04:52 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
He just said that he didn't know about the fake elector scheme until the indictment was published.

WHAT?


url]https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/pence-trump-indictment/story?id=101953368[/url]

Pence is still trying to have it both ways. He said he hoped the American people would decide instead of the justice system on whether Trump is guilty.
Exactly.

Everyone knows Trump is guilty. Any actual doubt is either ignorance or just not a reasonable doubt.

Pence is the most naive and delusional politician I have ever seen. He thinks he can somehow become President. But any chance of that disappeared on January 6th when Trump and half the Republican party turned on him.

I doubt it was ever possible. But it seems he believes that his party will turn to him when they quit their love affair with His Orangeness.
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Old 3rd August 2023, 04:59 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Pence did a lot of things wrong. Both in the view of the MAGA-CHUDS and in my view.

The MAGA-CHUDS don't care about the law, the Constitution or doing what is right. Pence put doing the right thing above being loyal to His Orangeness.

In my view Pence failed after he did his job on January 6th. He tried to have it both ways. He stood up for democracy and then stood up for the turd who attacked it. The man whose acts led to hundreds of people searching to hang him.

This makes him look weak and unprincipled.
The immediate period surrounding the January 6th beer hall putsch is the the only time in his life when Pency boy has done the right thing.
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Old 3rd August 2023, 05:16 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Let me be a little bit optimistic for a second...

There are states with GOP legislatures who might try to manipulate their electoral college votes. But the way I see it, those states that might try that are probably already red states and probably already voted for Trump.

Any moderate or even left-leaning state that voted for biden probably won't want to change their electoral college votes, because either they are controlled by the democrats, or even if they have republicans in control, they still won't act because they would harm their own chances in the next state election.

And perhaps the number of people that are getting jailed over the January 6 terrorist attacks will make others nervous about joining in next time Stubby McBonespurs tries to install a dictatorship.
There are a number of left leaning states which have been gerrymandered hard enough that a tiny cabal of republitraitor party politicians are ruling over them like tinpot dictators.
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Old 3rd August 2023, 05:58 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I don't believe I posted anything about he'll never indict.

As for the needless delay, should I change that to 'no good reason'? Or IMO it was a mistake?

The Jan6 Committee did a very thorough job of laying out the case against Trump. This is one of the most important cases in the history of this country. We're not talking here about trying to spy on the members of the other party or having a slush fund to pay burglars to break into a psychiatrist's office. Though people may have forgotten just how much Nixon did abusing his office and that case was critical.

Trump tried to subvert the election outcome. IT IS A HUGE DEAL! A fair amount of the case was already developed. What possible reason could Garland have had for taking so long to assign a special prosecutor? Was Smith not yet available?

Yes Stacy, I can say Garland needed to get this case moving sooner. Having it complete before the GOP Primary was pretty damn important. There are going to be some serious complications if the trial(s) drag out too long and voters don't know the outcome(s) before they vote.

So I do not have blind faith that Garland might have had a good reason. Unless Smith was not yet available, I could see waiting for such a skilled prosecutor.
An astute legal talking head on MSNBC -- I forget who -- postulated that the congressional investigation needed to happen before DOJ in order to prime the public, and that Garland's approach was wise.

But even if true, DOJ could have been investigating. I dunno.
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Old 3rd August 2023, 06:58 AM   #129
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New York Times reporting that Co-Conspirator 6 is Boris Epshteyn.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump...b03d9b515f7073
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Old 3rd August 2023, 07:24 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
New York Times reporting that Co-Conspirator 6 is Boris Epshteyn.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump...b03d9b515f7073
What a pity this stinky, sloppy turd is not being indicted.
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Old 3rd August 2023, 07:32 AM   #131
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Adverting one last time to that snivel war that'll break out:

Yes, there are viable targets for the MAGA Rouge, i.e., targets they'd like to hit, but how vulnerable will they be? Does anyone doubt that security and, especially, surveillance won't be increased? or haven't been already?

And those bestarred (and besotted) generals we hear about will, as they always do, think damned hard about what will happen to their careers if they brush too close to the scum rising to the top of Thrump's little bucket.

BTW, nobody has ever called me Ginger and got away with it.

Until now.
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Old 3rd August 2023, 08:00 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
What a pity this stinky, sloppy turd is not being indicted.
The six have not been indicted yet. I'm going from a talking head on CNN yesterday, but there are multiple things that can happen regarding the co-conspirators.

1. Cooperate fully. May be a way to avoid future indictment.
2. Stick to silence. An indictment may or may not be brought in the future.
3. Keep arguing the election was stolen (Giuliani is stupid enough to do this).

There is nothing stopping future indictments of the six. Personally, I don't see how you can NOT indict more than 1 person in a conspiracy if they don't cooperate.
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Old 3rd August 2023, 08:02 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
The six have not been indicted yet. I'm going from a talking head on CNN yesterday, but there are multiple things that can happen regarding the co-conspirators.

1. Cooperate fully. May be a way to avoid future indictment.
2. Stick to silence. An indictment may or may not be brought in the future.
3. Keep arguing the election was stolen (Giuliani is stupid enough to do this).

There is nothing stopping future indictments of the six. Personally, I don't see how you can NOT indict more than 1 person in a conspiracy if they don't cooperate.
First rat gets the cheese. If anyone is going to cooperate, doing so now rather than later is probably the best way to maximize any leniency. The proverbial starter pistol has fired and all six of these people have definitely heard it.
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Old 3rd August 2023, 08:05 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost View Post
First rat gets the cheese. If anyone is going to cooperate, doing so now rather than later is probably the best way to maximize any leniency. The proverbial starter pistol has fired and all six of these people have definitely heard it.
Correct. They may have already been told. The other thing is they can agree now to plea in the future, and we won't hear about it for a while. If they do testify against Trump, you can bet the prosecution is not letting them off the hook yet.
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Old 3rd August 2023, 08:15 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
Correct. They may have already been told. The other thing is they can agree now to plea in the future, and we won't hear about it for a while. If they do testify against Trump, you can bet the prosecution is not letting them off the hook yet.
A few true believers like Powell might go down with the ship, but I wouldn't hold my breath about these federalist society mercenaries and Republican party operatives falling on their swords.

I'd bet money that John Eastman will take any opportunity to save his own skin, it's more a question of whether he will be given a choice or whether the prosecutors want to size him up for a noose too.
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Old 3rd August 2023, 10:05 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
The six have not been indicted yet. I'm going from a talking head on CNN yesterday, but there are multiple things that can happen regarding the co-conspirators.

1. Cooperate fully. May be a way to avoid future indictment.
2. Stick to silence. An indictment may or may not be brought in the future.
3. Keep arguing the election was stolen (Giuliani is stupid enough to do this).

There is nothing stopping future indictments of the six. Personally, I don't see how you can NOT indict more than 1 person in a conspiracy if they don't cooperate.
My impression is while this conspiracy involves a lot of people, Jack Smith intends to limit the number of defendants. (At least at first.) The reason is he wants to get it to trial as soon as possible. Each additional defendant slows the process down almost exponentially. Nail the big Orange first and then deal with his cabal.
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Old 3rd August 2023, 11:46 AM   #137
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Is somebody in place to make sure he doesn't try to grab the steering wheel and strangle the pilot?!
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Old 3rd August 2023, 12:24 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Any thoughts of Civil War aren't being just echoed by the Federalist, who state that the indictment is a declaration of war, the war obviously begun in the minds of some: https://thefederalist.com/2023/08/02...erican-voters/

Sharpen your pitchforks, and recall I warned about the making of martyrs long before this crap ever happened.
I fully expect some if not many attempts at terrorism by some MAGAts. But no war.
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Old 3rd August 2023, 12:25 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
An astute legal talking head on MSNBC -- I forget who -- postulated that the congressional investigation needed to happen before DOJ in order to prime the public, and that Garland's approach was wise.

But even if true, DOJ could have been investigating. I dunno.
That was 8 months ago. Garland named Smith in Nov 2022. It's not like the final report was the first time anyone knew about their findings.

CNN Dec 2022: FINAL REPORT Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol

Garland names Smith - Nov 2022
Made up by me quote: "Oh my goodness, will you look at the time", Garland said.
Quote:
“Based on recent developments, including Trump’s announcement that he is a candidate for president in the next election, and the current president’s intention to be a candidate in the next election, I have concluded it is in the public interest to appoint a special counsel,” Garland said at a news conference.

Garland could have waited for the documents request to be finished.
Quote:
Trump's prosecution is the culmination of a nearly two-year-long effort by the U.S. government to recover records from his South Florida property, Mar-a-Lago, after his presidency ended in January 2021.
But there's no reason that couldn't have gone faster.


Chris Hayes agrees with my POV: Chris Hayes Says New Trump Charges Are Also ‘an Indictment of Merrick Garland’
Quote:
“We all saw the crimes committed and we know that there was no predicated investigation at the Department of Justice.
Not sure how he knew that but it's more than "you [me] don't know" yada yada.

Quote:
We sat here one year ago at this table, and we watched 85% of the facts, I would say, somewhere in that range, laid out before the nation,” Hayes said, referring to the House of Representatives’ January 6 Committee. “[They] did incredible job and in fact, I think this indictment reads as an endorsement of their work in many ways.”

“We’re now in a tighter space, a year later, about a guy who’s running for president to stay out of prison — He is literally running for his freedom — than we would have been a year ago,” Hayes continued.

“You know, there’s ‘hindsight is 2020,’ and Merrick Garland has a very difficult job. And I would grant him that. But, ” Hayes added, “this makes me think that the year when there was apparently not very much happening at the department of justice, about a criminal conspiracy that happened on live television, as we all watched, was maybe not the greatest thing.”

I'm done with this, I hope. Someone remind me I said that if I answer any followup posts, which of course are fine. Someone else can have the last words.

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Old 3rd August 2023, 12:28 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Is somebody in place to make sure he doesn't try to grab the steering wheel and strangle the pilot?!
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Well, that will be tragic for the crew, and possibly for some people on the ground, but it will sorta solve the whole problem, as I don't suppose Donny is able to steer an airplane safely. And where would he fly to, anyway?

Hans
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Old 3rd August 2023, 12:28 PM   #141
Skeptic Ginger
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
What a pity this stinky, sloppy turd is not being indicted.
Yet.

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Old 3rd August 2023, 12:31 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post
I fully expect some if not many attempts at terrorism by some MAGAts. But no war.
If anyone gets assassinated we will be all the more like a banana republic.
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Old 3rd August 2023, 12:38 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Everyone knows Trump is guilty. Any actual doubt is either ignorance or just not a reasonable doubt.
Correction.

Everyone knows Trump is guilty. Any actual "doubt" is just a cover for daring us to do something about it.

This will change as much as the last... I stopped ******* counting times he was indicted and the two impeachments and the releasing of his tax records and this investigation and that investigation and all the other things that mean he was finally doomed that never mattered.
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Old 3rd August 2023, 12:57 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The exchange went thus:

Perhaps I didn't track the exchange back far enough but that seems to me to be part of your argument against my making unfounded assumptions about Garland's prosecution delay.
You're right; you didn't track it back far enough. No, it was not part of my argument at all. I clearly told you: "And the claims were that Garland would never indict Trump not whether he did it fast enough or not."

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I get it you think people shouldn't have an opinion on this because we don't know. Well that's crap. People have lots of opinions without knowing all the circumstances.
No, you don't get it at all. People are entitled to their opinions but they are not entitled to their own facts. You stated that "there was no reason he didn't move sooner," which is stating it as a fact, not an opinion. Sure, people have lots of opinions and pointing out it's an assumption based on virtually no knowledge is perfectly valid.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I look at what I see and Garland, yes needed to take time and care. But the other side of that decision is the weight one applies to the mess created when Trump's trial gives him excuse after excuse to delay the proceedings well into the election.
True. But do you think Garland was not perfectly aware of Trump's well-known tactic of delay, delay, delay? Do you think that bringing a case to trial BEFORE it was airtight would have somehow made it less easy for Trump to use that tactic? Do you think the indictment is not specifically geared to neuter that tactic? To that end:

Quote:
As Smith said at his post-indictment press conference, a speedy trial is imperative for the health of our democracy. To that end, he and his team have produced an indictment defined by clarity and relative simplicity.
Beyond the uncomplicated factual narrative, Smith has also kept the indictment as legally straightforward as possible. Although many statutes could potentially apply to this case, he charged the entire plot under just three statutes
.
Quote:
By charging Trump alone, Smith emphasizes his centrality — and keeps the indictment simple.
Smith also avoids the most complicated aspects of having to prove Trump’s state of mind.
Quote:
This approach allows Smith to present the clearest and fastest possible case to a jury, reducing the potential procedural complications and delays that come with a more sprawling case with multiple defendants. Moreover, this indictment does not prevent Smith from bringing charges against other individuals at a later date, just as he did in the recent superseding indictment in the classified documents case.
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It's going to be a mess. So where is that 'takes time, careful case building' going to be then?
And that is your opinion. And not one that I share nor does the article I provided above.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I spelled out the assumption I'm making and it isn't the one you have applied to my opinion.
You stated: "There was no reason he didn't move sooner." THAT is what I said you were assuming. Unless you can provide evidence that Garland had 'no reason' then you are making an assumption. Period.


Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You are welcome to your opinion, obviously. I think you are neglecting to look at the whole picture, leaving an important factor out while you step ever so lightly, giving Garland the benefit of the doubt for a decision that you don't know what he was thinking either.
You've moved the goalpost here, SG. I never said I knew what Garland was thinking unlike you declaring he had "no reason" for the "needless delay." In fact, I clearly said I did not know what he was thinking: "As for what possible reason could Garland taking so long to assign a special counsel, I don't know and you don't know. But I do think he had his reasons which we are not privy to."


Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Round and around here, you can suspect he knows things we don't, and I can conclude he didn't apply enough weight to the election timeline.
My suspecting Garland knows things we don't know is far more plausible than your concluding he didn't apply enough weight to the election timeline.

You took a post regarding 'eating crow' by those who claimed Trump would never be indicted and applied it to Garland not moving fast enough. I pointed out that misapplication to you and said your statement that Garland had 'no reason' not to move sooner was an assumption. Which it is unless you know something we all don't.

You apparently took offense to having that obvious fact pointed out and instead of just acknowledging that it was an assumption, just dug in.
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Old 3rd August 2023, 01:03 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
My impression is while this conspiracy involves a lot of people, Jack Smith intends to limit the number of defendants. (At least at first.) The reason is he wants to get it to trial as soon as possible. Each additional defendant slows the process down almost exponentially. Nail the big Orange first and then deal with his cabal.
That seems to be the consensus. As I provided Skeptic Ginger above:

Quote:
This approach allows Smith to present the clearest and fastest possible case to a jury, reducing the potential procedural complications and delays that come with a more sprawling case with multiple defendants. Moreover, this indictment does not prevent Smith from bringing charges against other individuals at a later date, just as he did in the recent superseding indictment in the classified documents case.
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Old 3rd August 2023, 02:28 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
An astute legal talking head on MSNBC -- I forget who -- postulated that the congressional investigation needed to happen before DOJ in order to prime the public, and that Garland's approach was wise.

But even if true, DOJ could have been investigating. I dunno.
I had a long chat with my Sister (who is a practicing attorney) last night, and everybody in the firm she works for laughs at all the second guessing of Garland you see on the internet. They have no idea how much work it is to build a case for a normal trial...let alone one like this.
As one of her collegues put it: 'A lot of these jokers have a law degree from the University of Law and Order".
People really think things happen as quickly in the real legal world as they do on that show.
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Old 3rd August 2023, 02:30 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
What a pity this stinky, sloppy turd is not being indicted.
And you have your law degree from.....
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Old 3rd August 2023, 02:31 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
That seems to be the consensus. As I provided Skeptic Ginger above:
I also think there are some mind games being played in hopes of getting one of the six to do a Joe Valachi and rat on Trump.
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Old 3rd August 2023, 03:30 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I had a long chat with my Sister (who is a practicing attorney) last night, and everybody in the firm she works for laughs at all the second guessing of Garland you see on the internet. They have no idea how much work it is to build a case for a normal trial...let alone one like this.
As one of her collegues put it: 'A lot of these jokers have a law degree from the University of Law and Order".
People really think things happen as quickly in the real legal world as they do on that show.
[off-topic]
To be fair to the makers of that show, if you watch carefully and pay close attention, you will often see that it compresses into a one hour show, events that clearly take place over months. For example, a person with severe facial injuries from a beating has completely healed by the time they testify; a witness or a defendant has left the state or country and needs to be extradited - this takes weeks, sometime months, yet that extradited person appears in court in the next couple of scenes.

Its really a just a perception of the inattentive audience that the cops can finish their investigation of a complicated crime by half way though the show in, and the DA gets a verdict by the time the credits roll.
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Old 3rd August 2023, 03:33 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Is somebody in place to make sure he doesn't try to grab the steering wheel and strangle the pilot?!
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

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Old 3rd August 2023, 03:34 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
... someone send this to Randy Rainbow!!
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Old 3rd August 2023, 03:49 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Correction.

Everyone knows Trump is guilty. Any actual "doubt" is just a cover for daring us to do something about it.

This will change as much as the last... I stopped ******* counting times he was indicted and the two impeachments and the releasing of his tax records and this investigation and that investigation and all the other things that mean he was finally doomed that never mattered.
You're not taking into account all those people that live in a right wing bubble. That only get their news (I'm being generous calling it news) from FOX, OAN, NEWSMAX, etc.

Remember what Paul said.

I have squandered my resistance
For a pocketful of mumbles
Such are promises
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest
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Old 3rd August 2023, 03:53 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post
I fully expect some if not many attempts at terrorism by some MAGAts. But no war.
Well, Civil War is not always a "war" in the sense you might be thinking.

The Troubles in Ireland wasn't a "war" (although plenty of people consider it to have been a civil war), but there were over 16,000 bomb attacks, over 47,000 shootings, almost 37,000 people injured and 3,720 people were killed.
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Old 3rd August 2023, 04:11 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Well, Civil War is not always a "war" in the sense you might be thinking.

The Troubles in Ireland wasn't a "war" (although plenty of people consider it to have been a civil war), but there were over 16,000 bomb attacks, over 47,000 shootings, almost 37,000 people injured and 3,720 people were killed.
The analogy doesn’t work. This ain't the "troubles." This isn't a religious war.

The problem is the MAGA-CHUDS have zero philosophy that guides them outside a ridiculous loyalty to a rich man who never actually cared about any of them. Outside of the militia groups like the Oath Keepers and the Proud Boys, few of them want to go to war.

I believe there will be acts of domestic terrorism. But it will be limited.
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Old 3rd August 2023, 04:26 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The analogy doesn’t work. This ain't the "troubles." This isn't a religious war.

The problem is the MAGA-CHUDS have zero philosophy that guides them outside a ridiculous loyalty to a rich man who never actually cared about any of them. Outside of the militia groups like the Oath Keepers and the Proud Boys, few of them want to go to war.

I believe there will be acts of domestic terrorism. But it will be limited.
Yes, it is a religious war
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Old 3rd August 2023, 05:00 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by Andy_Ross View Post
Yes, it is a religious war
Trump is a religion?
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Old 3rd August 2023, 05:01 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Trump is a religion?
Yes.
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Old 3rd August 2023, 05:01 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Trump is a religion?
He meets all the criteria.
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Old 3rd August 2023, 05:24 PM   #159
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I'm So Indicted YouTube video.
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Old 3rd August 2023, 05:30 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by jt512 View Post
I'm So Indicted YouTube video.
Fantastic!
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