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Old 3rd August 2023, 05:36 PM   #161
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Trump is a religion?
Trump isn't a religion, but Trumpism/MAGA is. It's a cult.
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Old 3rd August 2023, 05:43 PM   #162
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Trump has pled not guilty.

Trump "sat stern-faced with his hands folded, shaking his head at times as he conferred with an attorney and occasionally glancing around the courtroom as his court appearance began. He stood up to enter his “not guilty” plea, answered perfunctory questions from the judge and thanked her at the conclusion of the arraignment."

https://apnews.com/article/a79f2d368...635c9b3d870070
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Old 3rd August 2023, 05:44 PM   #163
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The next hearing in this case is on August 28.
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Old 3rd August 2023, 05:45 PM   #164
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Aw ye of piddling faith

Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Trump isn't a religion, but Trumpism/MAGA is. It's a cult.
I've GooGooed for "a prayer to Trump," but haven't come up with one. Yet.
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Old 3rd August 2023, 05:45 PM   #165
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Quote:
He was released on conditions, including that he he not have contact about the case with any witnesses unless attorneys are present.

“If you fail to comply with any conditions of your release, a warrant may be issued for your arrest,” Magistrate Judge Moxila A. Upadhyaya told him.
https://apnews.com/article/e64fbee9c...8edb5265d12b07
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Old 3rd August 2023, 05:47 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You're not taking into account all those people that live in a right wing bubble. That only get their news (I'm being generous calling it news) from FOX, OAN, NEWSMAX, etc.

Remember what Paul said.

I have squandered my resistance
For a pocketful of mumbles
Such are promises
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest
The refrain is quite appropriate here, too.

Lie, la Lie.
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Old 3rd August 2023, 06:51 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You're not taking into account all those people that live in a right wing bubble. That only get their news (I'm being generous calling it news) from FOX, OAN, NEWSMAX, etc.

Remember what Paul said.

I have squandered my resistance
For a pocketful of mumbles
Such are promises
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest
Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
The refrain is quite appropriate here, too.

Lie, la Lie.
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Old 3rd August 2023, 07:45 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
I've GooGooed for "a prayer to Trump," but haven't come up with one. Yet.
Our MAGA, who art in Florida
Hallowed be thy name
Thy presidency come, thy whim be done
On Earth as it is within these United States of America
Give us this day our daily truths
And mock those who are weaker
As we mock those who are weaker than us
For thine is the presidency, the power and glory
For ever and ever
Amen.
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Old 3rd August 2023, 09:33 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Our MAGA, who art in Florida
Hallowed be thy name
Thy presidency come, thy whim be done
On Earth as it is within these United States of America
Give us this day our daily truths
And mock those who are weaker
As we mock those who are weaker than us
For thine is the presidency, the power and glory
For ever and ever
Amen.
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Old 3rd August 2023, 11:34 PM   #170
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More from Pence

Quote:
President Trump was wrong in saying that I had some right to overturn the election. My duty on January wasn’t a belief, it’s the law and the history of this Country.
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Old 4th August 2023, 07:38 AM   #171
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https://s3.documentcloud.org/documen...0-election.pdf

I just read the whole indictment. Trump and Co. did indeed attempt to send FAKE electoral votes to Pence, to be viewed as alternate slates of electors, which was ILLEGAL as there is a legal way to do this, and the Gov and Secr of State of each state has to sign of on this, which was not done. This was indeed election fraud.

Did Trump encourage the mob on 1/6 to go to Congress and stop their certification of Biden as the winner? Yes. It does seem that way. Even though he urged them to be peaceful (after they were violent for some time), he still urged them to go to Congress and obstruct the legal preceedings to count the only legally submitted electoral votes. Trump also repeatedly urged Pence to violate the law and the ECA, and reject the legal electoral votes on his own, which he had no authority to do.

So yeah, it seems the indictment for the fake electors, threatening the GA Secr of State and Governor, and the indictment for his actions specifically on 1/6 are legit.

He is toast.
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Old 4th August 2023, 07:57 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Trump is a religion?
More or less. The unifying trait in MAGA world is religious zeal. And Trump is worshipped like a demigod.
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Old 4th August 2023, 08:01 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by Hercules56
He is toast.
Agreed. Virtually guaranteed to get a firm swat on the butt with a rolled up newspaper, then back to being fellated by legions of supporters, except Melania.

We are toast.
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Old 4th August 2023, 08:07 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Did Trump encourage the mob on 1/6 to go to Congress and stop their certification of Biden as the winner? Yes. It does seem that way. Even though he urged them to be peaceful (after they were violent for some time)...
That he wanted his mob to be peaceful is debatable.

Yes, Trump did at some points use words that sounded like he wanted non-violent action. But:

- He also used phrases like "fight like hell", and "you won't have a republican party if you don't get tougher". Phrasing like 'fight' and 'tough' are contradictory to the phrasing of 'peaceful'.

- He suggested they disconnect the metal detectors at his rallies (because "they aren't here to hurt me", hinting that he knew the crowd had weapons)

- He knew what his supporters were like (remember, once of them sent a pipe bomb to media organizers after all his "fake news" claims). "My pit bull has rabies, but I told him to sit and be good, so I can't be blamed if he attacks someone"

- He has called for violence in the past (for example telling people that if the assault protestors at his rallies he will pay for their defense). Even if he called for "peace" THIS time, some of his supporters probably remember the times where he did say "violence is good'.

- once violence DID occur he did nothing to curtail it for over an hour (no tweets asking people to pull back, no emergency new broadcast asking people to leave the capitol building, etc.) despite being urged to by multiple people. Which means that at the very least he approved of the violence while it was happening. "I didn't initially want them to beat up police but its cool that they did" isn't a very good defense.

- At the very end, after multiple police officers were assaulted, after windows were smashed and feces smeared on the walls, he told the protestors he "loved them". And he has suggested he will pardon some/all of the terrorists.
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Old 4th August 2023, 08:12 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
That he wanted his mob to be peaceful is debatable.

Yes, Trump did at some points use words that sounded like he wanted non-violent action. But:

- He also used phrases like "fight like hell", and "you won't have a republican party if you don't get tougher". Phrasing like 'fight' and 'tough' are contradictory to the phrasing of 'peaceful'.

- He suggested they disconnect the metal detectors at his rallies (because "they aren't here to hurt me", hinting that he knew the crowd had weapons)

- He knew what his supporters were like (remember, once of them sent a pipe bomb to media organizers after all his "fake news" claims). "My pit bull has rabies, but I told him to sit and be good, so I can't be blamed if he attacks someone"

- He has called for violence in the past (for example telling people that if the assault protestors at his rallies he will pay for their defense). Even if he called for "peace" THIS time, some of his supporters probably remember the times where he did say "violence is good'.

- once violence DID occur he did nothing to curtail it for over an hour (no tweets asking people to pull back, no emergency new broadcast asking people to leave the capitol building, etc.) despite being urged to by multiple people. Which means that at the very least he approved of the violence while it was happening. "I didn't initially want them to beat up police but its cool that they did" isn't a very good defense.

- At the very end, after multiple police officers were assaulted, after windows were smashed and feces smeared on the walls, he told the protestors he "loved them". And he has suggested he will pardon some/all of the terrorists.
Never has a man so obviously turbulent priested without knowing the word "turbulent".
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Old 4th August 2023, 08:13 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
That he wanted his mob to be peaceful is debatable.

Yes, Trump did at some points use words that sounded like he wanted non-violent action. But:

- He also used phrases like "fight like hell", and "you won't have a republican party if you don't get tougher". Phrasing like 'fight' and 'tough' are contradictory to the phrasing of 'peaceful'.

- He suggested they disconnect the metal detectors at his rallies (because "they aren't here to hurt me", hinting that he knew the crowd had weapons)

- He knew what his supporters were like (remember, once of them sent a pipe bomb to media organizers after all his "fake news" claims). "My pit bull has rabies, but I told him to sit and be good, so I can't be blamed if he attacks someone"

- He has called for violence in the past (for example telling people that if the assault protestors at his rallies he will pay for their defense). Even if he called for "peace" THIS time, some of his supporters probably remember the times where he did say "violence is good'.

- once violence DID occur he did nothing to curtail it for over an hour (no tweets asking people to pull back, no emergency new broadcast asking people to leave the capitol building, etc.) despite being urged to by multiple people. Which means that at the very least he approved of the violence while it was happening. "I didn't initially want them to beat up police but its cool that they did" isn't a very good defense.

- At the very end, after multiple police officers were assaulted, after windows were smashed and feces smeared on the walls, he told the protestors he "loved them". And he has suggested he will pardon some/all of the terrorists.
Unfortunately in our current ****** political discourse, terms like "fight" are very often metaphors for strong aggressive non-violent action. I think Trump has some plausible deniability regarding accusations that he literally called for violence.

He can claim that he meant he wanted folks to go into the Senate chamber and demand that he me made President, or that the electoral votes be sent back to the states, or that the 6 states get debates by Congress, etc, without violence. Just yelling and screaming and peaceful pressure. Which is of course illegal as its illegal to disrupt the electoral count process.
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Old 4th August 2023, 08:21 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Unfortunately in our current ****** political discourse, terms like "fight" are very often metaphors for strong aggressive non-violent action. I think Trump has some plausible deniability regarding accusations that he literally called for violence.

He can claim that he meant he wanted folks to go into the Senate chamber and demand that he me made President, or that the electoral votes be sent back to the states, or that the 6 states get debates by Congress, etc, without violence. Just yelling and screaming and peaceful pressure. Which is of course illegal as its illegal to disrupt the electoral count process.
What’s the alternative interpretation of “fight like hell” when said to a mob just before directing them to the Capitol where an election certification they’ve been told is fraudulent is taking place?

Last edited by johnny karate; 4th August 2023 at 08:27 AM.
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Old 4th August 2023, 08:22 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Never has a man so obviously turbulent priested without knowing the word "turbulent".
Or priest.
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Old 4th August 2023, 08:28 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Unfortunately in our current ****** political discourse, terms like "fight" are very often metaphors for strong aggressive non-violent action. I think Trump has some plausible deniability regarding accusations that he literally called for violence.

He can claim that he meant he wanted folks to go into the Senate chamber and demand that he me made President, or that the electoral votes be sent back to the states, or that the 6 states get debates by Congress, etc, without violence. Just yelling and screaming and peaceful pressure. Which is of course illegal as its illegal to disrupt the electoral count process.
First of all, how words like 'fight' are interpreted will depend on context. As I said before, his supporters have been known to engage in violence in the past, (and Trump himself has encouraged it as well), so the word 'fight' will be taken in a different light than if (for example) an Amish person uses it.

Secondly, it seems like you have ignored other points I made... in particular how he failed to react to the violence once it started and how he told the terrorists he loved them. That indicates an approval for their violent actions (If he really did want things to remain peaceful, he should have jumped on twitter the moment the first window was broken with a "Cool it guys, that's not what I wanted".)
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Old 4th August 2023, 08:40 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Unfortunately in our current ****** political discourse, terms like "fight" are very often metaphors for strong aggressive non-violent action. I think Trump has some plausible deniability regarding accusations that he literally called for violence.

He can claim that he meant he wanted folks to go into the Senate chamber and demand that he me made President, or that the electoral votes be sent back to the states, or that the 6 states get debates by Congress, etc, without violence. Just yelling and screaming and peaceful pressure. Which is of course illegal as its illegal to disrupt the electoral count process.
I can cherry pick too. Violent or not from that speech alone it's a mixed message at best.

Turn off the metal detectors, they aren't after me.

And the clincher, waiting almost 3 hours to put a stop to it.

Oh, and there was a purposeful effort to limit police backup IIRC from the committee testimony.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 4th August 2023 at 08:43 AM.
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Old 4th August 2023, 08:40 AM   #181
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I wonder, will the DOJ witnesses include the guys who, in their own Jan 6 trials, testified that the reason they went into the Capitol building is because Trump told them to?

We can debate over what he said and stuff, but if the question is whether his words incited people to riot, we actually already have testimony from federal court that says they did.
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Old 4th August 2023, 08:49 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
What’s the alternative interpretation of “fight like hell” when said to a mob just before directing them to the Capitol where an election certification they’ve been told is fraudulent is taking place?
You know very well that "fight like hell" need not be taken literally to mean "punch and kick".
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Old 4th August 2023, 09:51 AM   #183
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Trump's defense lawyer went on Fox News and described Trump doing exactly what he's accused of in the indictment.

(Link is to Lawrence O'Donnel on MSNBC.)
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Old 4th August 2023, 09:58 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
You know very well that "fight like hell" need not be taken literally to mean "punch and kick".
In the abstract, yes. But we’re talking about a very specific context. In that context, what is the non-violent interpretation?
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Old 4th August 2023, 10:04 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
https://s3.documentcloud.org/documen...0-election.pdf

I just read the whole indictment. Trump and Co. did indeed attempt to send FAKE electoral votes to Pence, to be viewed as alternate slates of electors, which was ILLEGAL as there is a legal way to do this, and the Gov and Secr of State of each state has to sign of on this, which was not done. This was indeed election fraud.

Did Trump encourage the mob on 1/6 to go to Congress and stop their certification of Biden as the winner? Yes. It does seem that way. Even though he urged them to be peaceful (after they were violent for some time), he still urged them to go to Congress and obstruct the legal preceedings to count the only legally submitted electoral votes. Trump also repeatedly urged Pence to violate the law and the ECA, and reject the legal electoral votes on his own, which he had no authority to do.

So yeah, it seems the indictment for the fake electors, threatening the GA Secr of State and Governor, and the indictment for his actions specifically on 1/6 are legit.

He is toast.
Does not matter if it was peaceful. He was attempting to defraud the electorate. The people that voted for the other guy. Including me. He attempted to defraud me.

I actually think if anything we are taking this far, FAR, less seriously. Because its Trump, and he's been spouting crazy ass terrible BS since before he was elected in 2016. If this had happened in isolation, back in more normal times, I think whoever did it would be already be in prison. But he's conditioned us to accept a level of crazy we never did before.
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Old 4th August 2023, 10:07 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
In the abstract, yes. But we’re talking about a very specific context. In that context, what is the non-violent interpretation?
Verbally and emotionally "fight like hell" to get the Congress to not accept the electoral count of the 6 states. Yell, scream, protest, sit on the Senate chamber floor and have a hissy fit.

Or Trump could finally explain what EXACTLY he wanted his protestors to do.
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Old 4th August 2023, 10:15 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Verbally and emotionally "fight like hell" to get the Congress to not accept the electoral count of the 6 states. Yell, scream, protest, sit on the Senate chamber floor and have a hissy fit.

Or Trump could finally explain what EXACTLY he wanted his protestors to do.
And how were these people supposed to get into the Senate chamber - where they were not legally allowed and was guarded by law enforcement - non-violently?
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Old 4th August 2023, 10:19 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
…. Those states where GOP legislators control the voting certification could be a real problem….
The Dems must factor that into which states they devote how many resources.
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Old 4th August 2023, 10:25 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I just think Democracy in the US is a lot toughter then a lot of people here think.
Perhaps, and we don’t want to find out where its breaking point actually is.
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Old 4th August 2023, 10:38 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
BTW, nobody has ever called me Ginger and got away with it.
It takes a Ginger to call another Ginger Ginger.

h/r Tim Minchin
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Old 4th August 2023, 11:00 AM   #191
Paul2
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Trump is a religion?
Our Trump who art the REAL President,

hallowed be thy name.

Thy dictatorship come.

Thy will be done 
in Washington DC as it is on the Left Coast. 

Give us this day our daily crumbs, 

and forgive us our doubts about all your lies, boorishness, unindicted crimes, indictments, fines, and convictions,

as we never forgive those who trespass against us, 

and lead us not into democracy, 

but deliver us from classic liberalism.

For thine is the Administration
and the power,
and the glory, 

forever and ever.

Fake news.
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It's nice to be nice to the nice.

Aristotle, so far as I know, was the first man to proclaim explicitly that man is a rational animal. His reason for this view was one which does not now seem very impressive: it was, that some people can do sums. - Bertrand Russell
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Old 4th August 2023, 11:03 AM   #192
Paul2
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Our MAGA, who art in Florida
Hallowed be thy name
Thy presidency come, thy whim be done
On Earth as it is within these United States of America
Give us this day our daily truths
And mock those who are weaker
As we mock those who are weaker than us
For thine is the presidency, the power and glory
For ever and ever
Amen.
Ninja’ed! Rats. Combine our two and we’d have one solid contribution.
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Aristotle, so far as I know, was the first man to proclaim explicitly that man is a rational animal. His reason for this view was one which does not now seem very impressive: it was, that some people can do sums. - Bertrand Russell
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Old 4th August 2023, 11:24 AM   #193
Segnosaur
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Quote:
Verbally and emotionally "fight like hell" to get the Congress to not accept the electoral count of the 6 states. Yell, scream, protest, sit on the Senate chamber floor and have a hissy fit.
And how were these people supposed to get into the Senate chamber - where they were not legally allowed and was guarded by law enforcement - non-violently?
Couldn't the protestors just tell the police to "stand down"?

(I have seen people claim that the January 6th terrorists weren't guilty because "they told police to stand down", a claim that is as dumb as it sounds.)
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Old 4th August 2023, 11:36 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
You know very well that "fight like hell" need not be taken literally to mean "punch and kick".
And as I pointed out before... How a person will take a phrase like 'fight like hell' depends on context.

A group of people beholden to Trump, many of whom had engaged in violence before, and who had chanted "hang mike pence" are more likely going to take words like 'fight' to mean "punch and kick" than your average non MAGAchud..

Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Verbally and emotionally "fight like hell" to get the Congress to not accept the electoral count of the 6 states. Yell, scream, protest, sit on the Senate chamber floor and have a hissy fit.
As another poster pointed out... how exactly were they supposed to accomplish his goal of "stopping the count" WITHOUT violence. The room where the votes were counted had limited access. Yelling and screaming would not likely have been heard. And they could not get in to sit on the senate floor without breaking past the police.
Quote:
Or Trump could finally explain what EXACTLY he wanted his protestors to do.
The fact that Trump told the terrorists he "loved them" AFTER they had assaulted police, broke windows, and smeared feces on the walls of the capitol, is a pretty good indication that the protestors were doing exactly what he wanted them to do.
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Old 4th August 2023, 12:17 PM   #195
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Trump deliberately couched his speech in terms that would give him plausible deniability. "Fight like hell", as pointed out, can be interpreted as figurative and literal which is why he used it. Arguing over what he 'really' meant is a waste of time. He wasn't charged with 'inciting a riot' because he made no clear and overt statements of promoting or calling for violence. We can believe, as I do, that his intention was for the crowd to do exactly what they did, but it cannot be proved BARD due to the wording he so carefully used.


"(b) As used in this chapter, the term "to incite a riot", or "to organize, promote, encourage, participate in, or carry on a riot", includes, but is not limited to, urging or instigating other persons to riot, but shall not be deemed to mean the mere oral or written (1) advocacy of ideas or (2) expression of belief, not involving advocacy of any act or acts of violence or assertion of the rightness of, or the right to commit, any such act or acts.
(18 USC Ch. 102: RIOTS
From Title 18—CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE)
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Old 4th August 2023, 01:28 PM   #196
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Trump says the government is interfering with elections. His electing himself back. What about the rest of us? Trump voters are only 40%.

He should have thought of that while he could still make himself a dictator.
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Old 4th August 2023, 01:41 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by Tero View Post
Trump says the government is interfering with elections. His electing himself back. What about the rest of us? Trump voters are only 40%.

He should have thought of that while he could still make himself a dictator.
The two Federal indictments would have come months or even years earlier if Trump didn't stall the process with constant motions to stop witness testimony due to Executive Privilege and other failed legal schemes to muck up the process.
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Old 4th August 2023, 11:36 PM   #198
Orphia Nay
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Point 87 of the indictment document has Trump repeatedly urging his supporters in late December to go to Washington on Jan 6 to protest the "stolen election". "Will be wild".

The "fight like hell" is not a lone item, which is good for the prosecution.
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Old 5th August 2023, 12:47 AM   #199
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For the Conspiracy Charge, it's perfectly sufficient to show that his speech was in furtherance of his efforts to pressure Pence and Representatives into illegally stopping the certification, through intimidation and/or violence.

It is not necessary to show that Trump wanted them to hang Pence.
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Old 5th August 2023, 02:24 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Point 87 of the indictment document has Trump repeatedly urging his supporters in late December to go to Washington on Jan 6 to protest the "stolen election". "Will be wild".

The "fight like hell" is not a lone item, which is good for the prosecution.
Yes, there's also "I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard."
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