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Old 6th November 2023, 09:47 AM   #81
Leumas
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
I have no particular axe to grind with the PLO/PNA right now. (the PLO -- Fatah -- is not equal to the PNA, but rather, one party in a coalition of government, which, honestly, also includes the political branch of Hamas!)
So you have an axe to grind with the terrorists called Hamas... but not with the other terrorist called PLO?? Even though they are in together on their terrorism past and present?

Wow!!!

Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
It was you, however, that indicated they are wrong.
The very fabric of their existence is wrong.


Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
I merely suggested you could contact them, and explain your position.

I do not need to contact a terrorist organization, whose address you seem to know well, in order to explain why their very existence is an atrocious wrong.


Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
Be sure to say that you're providing the correct information to them in order to dispel "the propaganda and lies repeated even by the ignorant clueless Palestinians themselves."

I am amazed at how much you want to defend this terrorist organization's errors... wow!!!


Why?

ETA: that is a rhetorical question... I know exactly why.

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Old 6th November 2023, 10:01 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
Hercules56, you apparently misunderstand the nature of HAMAS.

The head of the CIA William Burns has now arrived in Israel. Also, an unusual announcement was made by the Pentagon that a nuclear-armed sub is now positioned in the eastern Med.

If you think that this war is just an exercise in futility by the IDF, I'm pretty sure you're going to find out otherwise.

Israel is fighting for it's life. That's just the way it is. We cannot continue with this threat over our heads (literally).
It is a mistake for pundits to invent scenarios that assume a “day after” as if this were a conventional war that will clearly and cleanly give way to agreed or imposed postwar arrangements.

Gazan governance may be so seriously undermined that political disintegration accompanied by social and economic deterioration are far more likely than any ideal (or even manageable) arrangements.
This is a SSGN, which essentially is equipped witth cruise missiles, most of which (if not all) will have conventional war heads. They are also equiped to deliver special forces, there is a possibility they may be there to potentially deliver a SEAL team as part of a hostage rescue mission, but more likely just for the added ability to deliver cruise missiles.
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Old 6th November 2023, 10:14 AM   #83
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Leumas, I have indicated already that Hamas is a political/religious group and they will likely have some level of influence in any future configuration of PalestineState organization.
Personally, I feel they can add a lot to the post-war efforts, provided they stick to purely adminstrative tasks (issuing driver's licenses and building/zoning permits and such).

PLO is asking not to be considered anymore a terrorist group.
https://www.thenationalnews.com/mena...east-jerusalem

I easily got that address from google.
Apparently, there is actually no office open currently because the PLO is not allowed by American law to have such a mission in the USA.

It's a good thing you aren't gonna let them have a piece of your mind, the letter would have been returned "Addressee Unknown"

The POTUS visited and sat down with AbuMazen, cordially and with respect.
I'm OK with that.

Who do you think is going to run things in the NewState of Palestine, should such an entity arise?
Got a name to offer? I recall, years ago, during Arafat's reign, there was a guy, Khaled Salaam (Muhammed Rashid). I liked his style. Corrupt to the core, but he got things done, and greatly influenced Arafat to return from exile in Tunisia and enter Gaza. In fact, the entire impetus of that period in 1994 was "Gaza First" along with Jericho, where Salaam became a partner with Sol Kirzner in the Oasis Casino there).
https://greenolivetours.com/the-tale...s-oasis-casino
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Old 6th November 2023, 10:19 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
This is a SSGN, which essentially is equipped witth cruise missiles, most of which (if not all) will have conventional war heads. They are also equiped to deliver special forces, there is a possibility they may be there to potentially deliver a SEAL team as part of a hostage rescue mission, but more likely just for the added ability to deliver cruise missiles.
How do you know this?
What is the name of that sub? The Pentagon did not announce it publicly.
There are 14 Ohio-class vessels equipped with ballistic missiles. It could be one of those, or it could be one of the 4 retrofitted with cruise-launch capabilities.

If you somehow have details about which particular sub is now in the area, that would be a 'scoop'

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Old 6th November 2023, 10:34 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Please explain why the Palestinians are not Arabs,

It is called HISTORY and FACTS of reality... instead of propaganda and distorted myths.


Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
... and its offensive and ignorant to label them as such.

You still have not read my post... please read it... slowly and carefully and show me where I said your strawmanning of it?

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Old 6th November 2023, 10:36 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
How do you know this?
What is the name of that sub? The Pentagon did not announce it publicly.
There are 14 Ohio-class vessels equipped with ballistic missiles. It could be one of those, or it could be one of the 4 retrofitted with cruise-launch capabilities.

If you somehow have details about which particular sub is now in the area, that would be a 'scoop'
I actually came to the same conculstion that Planigale did. He's probably right. But, we don't know that. Theres simply no reason to put one of the 14 SSBN's in the eastern med. However, its just speculation, I do not hold a security clearance and have no proof.
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Old 6th November 2023, 10:54 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
How do you know this?
What is the name of that sub? The Pentagon did not announce it publicly.
There are 14 Ohio-class vessels equipped with ballistic missiles. It could be one of those, or it could be one of the 4 retrofitted with cruise-launch capabilities.

If you somehow have details about which particular sub is now in the area, that would be a 'scoop'
An SSBN in the Med wouldn't make sense. An SSGN would. I call this an appeal to credibility.
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Old 6th November 2023, 11:00 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Hmmm, even the UN calls them "Palestinian Arabs".

https://www.un.org/unispal/history/

Yes... and they also call the Moroccans and Algerians and Tunisians and Egyptians and Syrians and Mauritanians and the Somalis and the Sudanese the same thing... do you know anything about history or geography?

These writings were written ca 430 BCE (that is before common era)....

Originally Posted by THE HISTORY OF HERODOTUS BOOK I , by Herodotus ca 430 BCE
THE FIRST BOOK OF THE HISTORIES, CALLED CLIO
  • 105. Thence they went on to invade Egypt; and when they were in Syria which is called Palestine, Psammetichos king of Egypt met them; and by gifts and entreaties he turned them from their purpose, so that they…

Originally Posted by THE HISTORY OF HERODOTUS BOOK II, by Herodotus ca 430 BCE
THE SECOND BOOK OF THE HISTORIES, CALLED EUTERPE
  • 104. For the people of Colchis are evidently Egyptian, and this I perceived for myself before I heard it from others. So when I had come to consider the matter I asked them both; and the Colchians had remembrance of the Egyptians more than the Egyptians of the Colchians; but the Egyptians said they believed that the Colchians were a portion of the army of Sesostris. That this was so I conjectured myself not only because they are dark-skinned and have curly hair (this of itself amounts to nothing, for there are other races which are so), but also still more because the Colchians, Egyptians, and Ethiopians alone of all the races of men have practised circumcision from the first. The Phenicians and the Syrians who dwell in Palestine confess themselves that…

  • 106. The pillars which Sesostris of Egypt set up in the various countries are for the most part no longer to be seen extant; but in Syria Palestine I myself saw them existing with the inscription upon them which I have mentioned and the emblem. Moreover in Ionia there are…

Originally Posted by THE HISTORY OF HERODOTUS BOOK III, by Herodotus ca 430 BCE
THE THIRD BOOK OF THE HISTORIES, CALLED THALEIA
  • 5. Now by this way only is there a known entrance to Egypt: for from Phenicia to the borders of the city of Cadytis belongs to the Syrians who are called of Palestine, and…

  • 91. From that division which begins with the city of Posideion, founded by Amphilochos the son of Amphiaraos on the borders of the Kilikians and the Syrians, and extends as far as Egypt, not including the territory of the Arabians (for this was free from payment), the amount was three hundred and fifty talents; and in this division are the whole of Phenicia and Syria which is called Palestine and Cyprus

Originally Posted by Meteorology , By Aristotle ca 350 B.C.E
Book II Part 3
Again if, as is fabled, there is a lake in Palestine, such that if you bind a man or beast and throw it in it floats and does not sink, this would bear out what we have said. They say that this lake is so bitter and salt that no fish live in it and that if you soak clothes in it and shake them it cleans them. The following facts all of them support our theory that it is some earthy stuff in the water which makes it salt.

Originally Posted by Greek Histories, Polemon of Athens ca 150 BCE
In the time [reign] of Apis son of Phoroneus a part of the Egyptian army was expelled from Egypt, who took up their abode not far from Arabia in the part of Syria called Palestine

Originally Posted by Agatharchides ca 130 BCE
Quoted in Diodorus Siculus's Bibliotheca Historica ca 35 BCE and in Strabo's Geographica ca 7 BCE
Near (Tiran) island is a promontory, which stretches towards the Rock of the Nabataeans and Palestine.

Originally Posted by The Poems , by Albius Tibullus and Sulpicia ca 30 BCE
Why tell how the white dove sacred to the Syrians flies unharmed through the crowded cities of Palestine?

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Old 6th November 2023, 11:10 AM   #89
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Can you please leave the scripture quotes etc for the religious sub-forum?
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Old 6th November 2023, 11:31 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Can you please leave the scripture quotes etc for the religious sub-forum?

Are you directing that comment at me or someone else?

Are you saying that The Histories by Herodotus the father of the field of HISTORY is a religious scripture???

What about a book called Greek Histories by Polemon of Athens.... or Meteorology by Aristotle... or a book called Geographica by Strabo... or a book called Bibliotheca Historica by Diodorus Siculus.

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Old 6th November 2023, 12:28 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
How do you know this?
What is the name of that sub? The Pentagon did not announce it publicly.
There are 14 Ohio-class vessels equipped with ballistic missiles. It could be one of those, or it could be one of the 4 retrofitted with cruise-launch capabilities.

If you somehow have details about which particular sub is now in the area, that would be a 'scoop'
I cannot disclose my sources but there are publicly available sources such as the USN. Anyway they look different and there are photos showing the submarine.

https://www.businessinsider.com/navy...3-11?r=US&IR=T

https://twitter.com/PatrickMcSwain2/...69877834064174
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Old 6th November 2023, 01:06 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
I cannot disclose my sources but there are publicly available sources such as the USN. Anyway they look different and there are photos showing the submarine.

https://www.businessinsider.com/navy...3-11?r=US&IR=T

https://twitter.com/PatrickMcSwain2/...69877834064174
The first link states it's a SSBN, right in the URL.
From your second 'source' (X)
"The opponents will have to assume SSBN (ballistic missile)."
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Old 6th November 2023, 01:29 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
I actually came to the same conclusion that Planigale did. He's (She's?) probably right. But, we don't know that. Theres simply no reason to put one of the 14 SSBN's in the eastern med. However, its just speculation, I do not hold a security clearance and have no proof.
Iran is ostensibly the country this 'warning' is addressed to. It's in range of the ballistic weaponry on board the Boomer. So, yeah, maybe theres yer reason.

That being said, from the images, theres a Dry Shelter on the deck, an indication this vessel is one of the four cruise missile variants -- USS Florida, USS Georgia, USS Michigan, or USS Ohio.
(That structure covers several of the forward launch tubes, which have been repurposed for storage)
Also, it makes sense that the Navy sent a sub with an Mk 8 SEAL Delivery Vehicle (SDV) mini-submarine.

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Old 6th November 2023, 01:34 PM   #94
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Double post. Ooops.

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Old 6th November 2023, 01:37 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
Iran is ostensibly the country this 'warning' is addressed to. It's in range of the ballistic weaponry on board the Boomer. So, yeah, maybe theres yer reason.

That being said, from the images, theres a Dry Shelter on the deck, an indication this vessel is one of the four cruise missile variants -- USS Florida, USS Georgia, USS Michigan, or USS Ohio.
(That structure covers several of the forward launch tubes, which have been repurposed for storage)
Also, it makes sense that the Navy sent a sub with an Mk 8 SEAL Delivery Vehicle (SDV) mini-submarine.
It'd be very odd indeed to move a boomer into the eastern med to scare Iran. First off, its not the closest navigable international body of water to Iran. And secondly, the range of Trident II's is (at least) 7,500 miles.
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Old 6th November 2023, 01:55 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
It'd be very odd indeed to move a boomer into the eastern med to scare Iran. First off, its not closest navigable international body of water to Iran. And secondly, the range of Trident II's is (at least) 7,500 miles.
Your statement seems contradictory.

If the range of the ballistic ordnance is 7500 miles, why would it be necessary to operate (or launch) within the "closest navigable body of water to Iran"? The distance to Tehran from Tel Aviv is about 1000 miles.
Tomahawk cruise missiles (with a range of about 1500 miles) are relatively slow and not that hard to shoot down by any modern fighter jet.

Not that this is really vital to this discussion, but Israel has several subs of its own, with cruise missile capabilties. (German-built 209 class)

Also, in researching this, I note that American B1 Lancer bomber is also flying high above the region.
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Old 6th November 2023, 02:15 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
Your statement seems contradictory.

If the range of the ballistic ordnance is 7500 miles, why would it be necessary to operate (or launch) within the "closest navigable body of water to Iran"? The distance to Tehran from Tel Aviv is about 1000 miles.
Tomahawk cruise missiles (with a range of about 1500 miles) are relatively slow and not that hard to shoot down by any modern fighter jet.

Not that this is really vital to this discussion, but Israel has several subs of its own, with cruise missile capabilties. (German-built 209 class)

Also, in researching this, I note that American B1 Lancer bomber is also flying high above the region.
Yes! Its contradictory, is why it makes no sense. If the Navy was trying to put fear into Iran they'd park a boomer off their coast. Even though they don't need to, due to the missiles range. Why put one in the eastern med, theres no reason to even get it that close to Iran, but its not REALLY close either?! It makes no sense. We're also not going to nuke Hezbollah on the Israeli border... we might send a couple hundred Tomahawks their way though.
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Old 6th November 2023, 02:27 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
Iran is ostensibly the country this 'warning' is addressed to. It's in range of the ballistic weaponry on board the Boomer. So, yeah, maybe theres yer reason.

That being said, from the images, theres a Dry Shelter on the deck, an indication this vessel is one of the four cruise missile variants -- USS Florida, USS Georgia, USS Michigan, or USS Ohio.
(That structure covers several of the forward launch tubes, which have been repurposed for storage)
Also, it makes sense that the Navy sent a sub with an Mk 8 SEAL Delivery Vehicle (SDV) mini-submarine.
On the contrary, the warning is clearly directed towards Tel Aviv. The message?

"If you nuke Gaza, we will nuke you. So mind your manners."
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Old 6th November 2023, 02:28 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
The first link states it's a SSBN, right in the URL.
The article at the first link says explicitly "[a]lthough they declined to name the vessel, a Navy spokesperson told Insider it is a guided-missile sub (SSGN), not a ballistic-missile sub (SSBN), which most of the Ohio-class subs are. The apparent dry deck shelter used for special operations purposes is a giveaway though, as the Ohio-class SSGNs carry that."

This makes sense, since the US would have far more need to deploy cruise missiles and special forces in the region, than nuclear missiles.
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Old 6th November 2023, 02:30 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
Iran is ostensibly the country this 'warning' is addressed to. It's in range of the ballistic weaponry on board the Boomer. So, yeah, maybe theres yer reason.
The US is not sending SSBNs into the Med to threaten Iran with a nuclear attack. That's just... I'm sorry, but that's just a stupid hypothesis.
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Old 6th November 2023, 03:12 PM   #101
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All Ohios are converted. Did somebody really thought US would send SSBN there ?

EDIT: I stand corrected, not all were converted. Still the second part holds.

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Old 6th November 2023, 03:39 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
On the contrary, the warning is clearly directed towards Tel Aviv. The message?

"If you nuke Gaza, we will nuke you. So mind your manners."
That seems.... just incredibly unlikely. For one thing you might want to look at a map of just how close some pretty big Israeli cities are to Gaza. And then lookup the effects of nuclear fallout. And for the other, Israel is our ally by treaty.
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Old 6th November 2023, 05:37 PM   #103
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Did somebody really thought US would send SSBN there ?
Dr Sid, look at the URL in this link -- what does it indicate?

businessinsider.com/navy-ohio-class-ballistic-submarine-arrived-in-mediterranean-israel-gaza-2023

My bad, I didn't open the link, just noted what was written in the link by hovering over it.
It would have been nice if I had gone one more step, though!
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Old 6th November 2023, 05:47 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
That seems.... just incredibly unlikely. For one thing you might want to look at a map of just how close some pretty big Israeli cities are to Gaza. And then lookup the effects of nuclear fallout. And for the other, Israel is our ally by treaty.
I don't know that Israel and the USA actually have an official treaty but there is a "Major non-NATO ally" (MNNA) classification that exists (Egypt also).


ALL of Israel is 'close to Gaza' -- When I was assigned to IDF bases in Gaza over the years, I loved the proximity to my home, and I simply drove up the highway at every opportunity (yeah, I drove my car into Gaza, as there were no restrictions back then). Ahh, those were the days.

Israel is nine-miles wide from the WestBank to the coast at Netanya.
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Old 6th November 2023, 06:05 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Seems like when it comes to Palestinian history, you believe everybody is stupid except for you.

Now please explain to us why the PLO is wrong and the United Nations is wrong, because the Palestinians are not Arabs .....
Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
The Palestinians aren't Arabs???

LOL, since when?....

Judging by the lack of further ridicule as shown below... that you now have read (properly) the answer to the above as given in this post.

And thus your ridicule as below was regrettable... right?


Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Your claim, is ignorantly absurd.
Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
...Palestinians "Arabs" is one of the most historically flawed arguments I have ever seen on this forum. You should really step back immediately before you dig all the way to China.
Seriously. I don't want to release the kraken but I will if you force me.

And that now you agree that I do indeed

Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
... know more about the Palestinians then the Palestinians themselves and the greater Arab community.
Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
...know more about the Palestinians than the Palestinian people themselves???

And that you no longer find it

Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Unbelievable.

And that you now appreciate

Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
White Education's privilege at its finest.
And that educated people who know history and geography and anthropology and sociology and geography... and did I say history already... no matter what color they are... CAN AND SHOULD educate

Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
... people who they are and what they are and what their history is.

To disabuse them of the effects of brainwashing and propaganda and nationalism and racism and MYTHS.... especially when enforced upon them by their conquerors and enemies.... but more egregiously of all... their own society through indoctrination into the lies their parents were inculcated into.

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Old 6th November 2023, 06:25 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
By using that false epithet.

Calling the Palestinians Arabs because they speak Arabic is like calling the Mexican natives Hispanics because they speak Spanish.

And then the Xenophobic supremacist Settler Colonialists use fallacies and propaganda such as "Land Without a people for a people without a land" and "Squatters" and then turn around and say "they are arabs and there are many arab states why don't they just go there to where they came from and leave us poor oppressed homeless Settler Colonialists with that little piece of land that does not belong to them... but was promised by the god 65% of us do not believe in to a guy 100% of sane people know was a myth".

....

And ironically here is the proof... not very long after...


Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
The 'Arab World' consists of 22 countries in the Middle East and North Africa: Algeria, Bahrain, the Comoros Islands, Djibouti, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, Mauritania, Oman, Palestine, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Tunisia, the United Arab Emirates, and Yemen.

Israel is less than 22,000 sq.miles of land area.
It is home to a robust mixture of people.
Including Ba'hai....
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Old 6th November 2023, 07:02 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
And ironically here is the proof... not very long after...
Proof of what, exactly?

My post contained statements of fact.

The goal of Israel's current war is to assure that Gazans will be able to have a bright future, by dismantling the Jihadists who have failed to go beyond "Kill the Jews" and rejected all attempts at peace.

Gaza is a nice place to live.
Nobody should need to (or be forced to) leave.
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Old 6th November 2023, 08:21 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
Proof of what, exactly?

Of the ruse Zionists use by calling Palestinians "Arabs"...


Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
My post contained statements of fact.
It is nothing but CASUISTRY for Zionism to justify Apartheid and Ethnic Cleansing and yet another ruse... "we are only retaliating against foreign usurpers" to hoodwink as to who is in fact the foreign usurpers as European Settler Colonialists ethnically cleansing a land of its autochthonous natives.


Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
The goal of Israel's current war is to assure that Gazans will be able to have a bright future, by dismantling the Jihadists who have failed to go beyond "Kill the Jews" and rejected all attempts at peace.

That is not true and is proven by history... and present facts.
  • Long before any Hamas islamic terrorists ever existed Israel was making a concentration apartheid camp out of Gaza
  • West Bank does not and did not have any islamic moronic terrorists but it is still insidiously robbed of its territory and confined behind a wall of apartheid


Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
Gaza is a nice place to live.
Nobody should need to (or be forced to) leave.

Hahahaha... European Christians used to say the same about their ghettos and pogroms... and so did the Afrikaans about their Bantustans and the early Settler Colonialists in the Americas and Australia about their reservations.

Last edited by Leumas; 6th November 2023 at 08:29 PM.
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Old 6th November 2023, 08:44 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
Of the ruse Zionists use by calling Palestinians "Arabs"...
I have called them Palestinians.
What should I call them?
Goobers?


Quote:
It is nothing but CASUISTRY for Zionism to justify Apartheid and Ethnic Cleansing and yet another ruse... "we are only retaliating against foreign usurpers" to hoodwink as to who is in fact the foreign usurpers as European Settler Colonialists ethnically cleansing a land of its autochthonous natives.
Big words.
This entire issue of who lives here, who should live here, who has rights to live here, and on and on, is not worth my time to continue with you. This is a 4-part thread of thousands of comments, and we've gone all over this too many times to count, in circles, up and down, over and out.
We are here, we are going to remain here. Deal with it.

Quote:
That is not true and is proven by history... and present facts.
  • Long before any Hamas islamic terrorists ever existed Israel was making a concentration apartheid camp out of Gaza
  • West Bank does not and did not have any islamic moronic terrorists but it is still insidiously robbed of its territory and confined behind a wall of apartheid
What?
Gaza's boundaries were defined in 1906.

No islamic jihadists in the WestBank? Really? Allah Hu-Snackbar.


Quote:
Hahahaha... European Christians used to say the same about their ghettos and pogroms... and so did the Afrikaans about their Bantustans and the early Settler Colonialists in the Americas and Australia about their reservations.
I loved being in Gaza back in the day. It was really relaxing and peaceful.
You should plan a trip there soon, I hear their resorts will be reopening in the not-too-distant future.
https://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotel_Re...City_Gaza.html
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Old 6th November 2023, 08:58 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
On the contrary, the warning is clearly directed towards Tel Aviv. The message?

"If you nuke Gaza, we will nuke you. So mind your manners."
This is mind-numbingly stupid. Nobody with any clue thinks Israel would nuke Gaza. They have maintained strategic ambiguity about their nuclear arsenal for decades for a reason, they aren't going to give that up now. They don't need nukes to level the place if that's their goal. So why the hell would we threaten them over something we know they won't do regardless? What kind of an idiot would think that's worth doing?
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Old 6th November 2023, 09:05 PM   #111
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One Palestinian Human Rights Activist's opinion:

Hamas's Terrorism Isn't Only Aimed At Israel but Against My Palestinian Brothers and Sisters in Gaza

Quote:
Hamas's actions are not merely a political maneuver. They reveal a moral bankruptcy that holds the lives of Gaza's 2.2 million Palestinians as ransom. As the international community and Israel work to ensure that humanitarian aid reaches those in need, Hamas's unyielding grip on power remains the principal obstacle to relief and peace. The audacity of this group to pilfer fuel meant for emergency services and manipulate the desperation of Gazans for tactical advantages is not just reprehensible; it is an act of terrorism by any definition.

And here's more truth: It is Hamas that is holding its own people hostage as human shields. An audio recording published by the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) revealed Hamas putting up roadblocks to prevent Gazans from moving away from the area that Israel had called on them to evacuate. Hamas's callous nature toward its people's rights includes storing weapons and other targets of military value next to schools, hospitals, and mosques. They want to kill Israelis and have Israelis kill their people and lose global support. Either is a win for them.
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Old 6th November 2023, 09:14 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I have offered this article before, but it's important to throw it out there again.
"Clearly, Gaza needs to be built from scratch. The rubble of its violent past has to be swept away with its ideology. It must not be mismanaged by those whose principles led to its ruin. It must be led by people rejecting its violent past, totally dedicated to making Gaza a better place to live rather than looking obsessively at other territories they do not possess."
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/379516

When the phrase Free Palestine is used, we reply "Free Gaza From Hamas"
Let's start there.

In New York City today that was exactly what the large protest there was about.
Hopefully it spreads.
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Old 6th November 2023, 09:29 PM   #113
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It's early Tuesday morning in Tel Aviv.
An eerie quiet and people starting their day, keeping one ear on the news.

This video was produced FIVE years ago.
https://www.facebook.com/TheNewStateSolution

What is everyone waiting for?
Place it into action, and start implementing the process to make it come about.
I see no other realistic alternative at this point.
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Old 6th November 2023, 10:44 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
On the contrary, the warning is clearly directed towards Tel Aviv. The message?

"If you nuke Gaza, we will nuke you. So mind your manners."
Seriously, you are way off with this post. First, Israel will not nuke Gaza, and even if they did, we would not nuke Israel.
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Old 7th November 2023, 02:16 AM   #115
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Something that had flown under the radar for me:

Israel Must Loudly Arrest the Murderous West Bank Settlers

Quote:
Since Hamas’ Oct. 7 attack, settlers there have killed more than 120 Palestinians and injured at least 2,000. They have forcibly expelled more than 800 Palestinians from their homes, blown up their generators and solar panels, and burned down tents of Bedouin herders.
Quote:
This has been going on not in Gaza but in the West Bank—which is governed by the Palestinian Authority, not by Hamas. Some of those killed were members of militant groups, but most were attacked simply because they were Palestinians. In any case, they had nothing to do with Hamas’ attack on Israel from Gaza.
Quote:
Yet Israeli officials have since said nothing about the settlers’ violence, not even after at least one incident where settlers attacked Israeli soldiers who were trying to stop their crimes.
Is Israel allowing their own citizens to attack innocent Palestinians living in the West Bank and not doing anything to stop them? They are going to lose the moral high ground if they allow this.
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Old 7th November 2023, 06:50 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Something that had flown under the radar for me: (* snipped linky *)

Is Israel allowing their own citizens to attack innocent Palestinians living in the West Bank and not doing anything to stop them? They are going to lose the moral high ground if they allow this.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/25/middl...ntl/index.html

Over the summer, the article reports that "The recent uptick in violence peaked on Wednesday, when Israeli settlers attacked the Palestinian village of Turmusayya in the occupied West Bank, the day after the killing of four Jewish settlers nearby."

Why were these Israeli civilians killed? It was in retaliation to an Israeli military operation in the Jenin area on Monday, which left seven Palestinians dead and 91 injured, according to the UN.

(OK, so was there any response from Israeli leadership? Absolutely.)
“In recent days, violent attacks have been carried out by Israelis in Judea and Samaria against innocent Palestinians,” the Chief of the Israeli General Staff, Gen. Herzi Halevi, the Director of the Israel Security Agency [ISA], Ronen Bar and Israel’s Police Commissioner, Yaakov Shabtai, said in a statement.

“These reprisal ("price tag") actions by the settlers contradict every moral and Jewish value; they constitute, in every way, nationalist terrorism, and we are obliged to fight (stop) them."

Here is a closer look regarding this topic --->
https://imeu.org/article/6-things-to...ttler-violence
(consider the source, YMMV)

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Old 7th November 2023, 07:01 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
It's early Tuesday morning in Tel Aviv.
An eerie quiet and people starting their day, keeping one ear on the news.

This video was produced FIVE years ago.
https://www.facebook.com/TheNewStateSolution

What is everyone waiting for?
Place it into action, and start implementing the process to make it come about.
I see no other realistic alternative at this point.
The USA is forcing Israel to cease-fire. Its a beautiful thing.

We simply will not allow Zion to continue the genocide in Gaza.
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Old 7th November 2023, 07:20 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/25/middl...ntl/index.html

Over the summer, the article reports that "The recent uptick in violence peaked on Wednesday, when Israeli settlers attacked the Palestinian village of Turmusayya in the occupied West Bank, the day after the killing of four Jewish settlers nearby."

Why were these Israeli civilians killed? It was in retaliation to an Israeli military operation in the Jenin area on Monday, which left seven Palestinians dead and 91 injured, according to the UN.

(OK, so was there any response from Israeli leadership? Absolutely.)
“In recent days, violent attacks have been carried out by Israelis in Judea and Samaria against innocent Palestinians,” the Chief of the Israeli General Staff, Gen. Herzi Halevi, the Director of the Israel Security Agency [ISA], Ronen Bar and Israel’s Police Commissioner, Yaakov Shabtai, said in a statement.

“These reprisal ("price tag") actions by the settlers contradict every moral and Jewish value; they constitute, in every way, nationalist terrorism, and we are obliged to fight (stop) them."
Words only?
From the link:
Quote:
Israeli security forces have recently ramped up armed hostilities against Palestinian militants, amid Netanyahu’s campaign for illegal settlers’ outposts to be expanded and turned into full settlements.
Here is a closer look regarding this topic --->
https://imeu.org/article/6-things-to...ttler-violence
(consider the source, YMMV)[/quote]

Quote:
2. Extremist settlers hold powerful positions in Israel’s government and condone and encourage settler violence against Palestinians.

Israel’s government includes notorious extremists and settlers in senior positions, most notably National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir and Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich. Ben-Gvir, who controls Israel’s domestic police and its paramilitary border police in the occupied West Bank, lives in one of the most radical Israeli settlements in the West Bank and has a long history of inciting racism and violence against Palestinians, including a conviction for supporting a terrorist organization.
In August 2023, Ben-Gvir praised a settler who murdered a 19-year-old Palestinian man, calling him a “hero.” In June 2023, he defended young settlers who rampaged through the West Bank attacking Palestinians and torching their homes and cars, calling them “sweet kids.” Until recently, for many years Ben-Gvir had a framed photo of the U.S.-born settler who massacred 29 Palestinians in Hebron in the West Bank in 1994 hanging in a place of honor in his home. (See here for more on Ben-Gvir and Smotrich)
This is the part where I suddenly lose my sympathy for Israel. As outraged as I was to read about the atrocities of Oct. 7th, to read that members of Israel's own government honor and encourage terrorism.
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Old 7th November 2023, 07:41 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Words only?
From the link:

This is the part where I suddenly lose my sympathy for Israel. As outraged as I was to read about the atrocities of Oct. 7th, to read that members of Israel's own government honor and encourage terrorism.
Ironic when those who scream about terrorism, honor and adore terrorists. Perhaps we should ignore their screams.
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Old 7th November 2023, 07:51 AM   #120
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puppycow -- ..."to read that members of Israel's own government honor and encourage terrorism."-

Have you ever heard or read about Menachem Begin?
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