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Old 15th February 2024, 03:09 PM   #4001
dudalb
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
You actually believe Hamas has even the slightest interest in the "will of the people"? Really?
SOme people just don't get that HAMAS is a bunch of religoius fanatics. They never care about the will of the people, just the will of the vocies from God they hear in their head.
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Old 15th February 2024, 03:11 PM   #4002
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Originally Posted by Ron Obvious View Post
At this point, I can't believe you're arguing in good faith.
Or maybe somebody is simply talking about something he is not really well informed about.
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Old 15th February 2024, 03:14 PM   #4003
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
And this is straight out of the Black Knight scene in Holy Grail. Hamas would rather perish than come to an agreement with Israel. This is why they will never agree to a reasonable compromise with Israel. They are terrorists and are not interested in peace.
I think the People's Front of Judea in "Monty Python's Life of Brian" is an even better comparasion.
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Old 15th February 2024, 03:15 PM   #4004
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Originally Posted by Ron Obvious View Post
At this point, I can't believe you're arguing in good faith.
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Or maybe somebody is simply talking about something he is not really well informed about.
Por que no los dos?
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Old 15th February 2024, 03:31 PM   #4005
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Or maybe somebody is simply talking about something he is not really well informed about.
I used to assume that and gave him the benefit of the doubt, but no longer.
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Old 15th February 2024, 05:11 PM   #4006
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
It's time to put and end to this stupid conflict, and it's time to finally give the Palestinian people a bright future that they deserve.
If it were that easy, it would have been done a long time ago.
Pious Platitudes are not going to help us here.
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Old 16th February 2024, 01:32 AM   #4007
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
This will be an overture to the Palestinian people, not specifically Hamas.
Quote:
As of 2021, most Palestinians are against the two-state solution. In 2021, a poll by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research revealed that 39% of Palestinians accept a two-state solution, while 59% said they rejected it. Support is even lower among younger Palestinians; in 2008, then-U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice noted: "Increasingly, the Palestinians who talk about a two-state solution are my age." A survey taken before the outbreak of fighting in 2014 by the Washington Institute for Near East Policy (WINEP) found that 60 percent of Palestinians say the goal of their national movement should be "to work toward reclaiming all of historic Palestine from the river to the sea" compared to just 27 percent who endorse the idea that they should work "to end the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza and achieve a two-state solution."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-st..._and_Palestine

Care to rethink your position now?
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Old 16th February 2024, 01:43 AM   #4008
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Palestine has never been made such an official offer by the Israeli govt.
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Simply not true. I am not posting the evidence again- there's just no point.
Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
An official offer of 95% of the West Bank, Arab parts of EJ and all of Gaza?

Nonsense. No such offer ever existed. I've been following this for years and KNOW that you're forgetting lots of conditions and caveats.
I suggest you follow at little more closely.
Camp David Summit, 2000:
Quote:
Israel wanted to annex the numerous settlement blocks on the Palestinian side of the Green Line, and were concerned that a complete return to the 1967 borders was dangerous to Israel's security. The Palestinian and Israeli definition of the West Bank differs by approximately 5% land area as the Israeli definition does not include East Jerusalem (71 km2), the territorial waters of the Dead Sea (195 km2) and the area known as No Man's Land (50 km2 near Latrun).

Based on the Israeli definition of the West Bank, Barak offered to form a Palestinian state initially on 73% of the West Bank (that is, 27% less than the Green Line borders) and 100% of the Gaza Strip. In 10–25 years, the Palestinian state would expand to a maximum of 92% of the West Bank (91 percent of the West Bank and 1 percent from a land swap). From the Palestinian perspective this equated to an offer of a Palestinian state on a maximum of 86% of the West Bank.
Official- from Ehud Barak, the then Prime Minister of Israel. % of the West Bank differs according to how you define the borders, but either way, 86% or 92% of that area. The Palestinians rejected this.
By the way, your figure of 95% was not in your original claim: you added that afterwards.
Care to revise your position in the light of new evidence?
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Old 16th February 2024, 02:05 AM   #4009
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
So ending terrorism is your goal, here.

Responding to the 10/7 atrocities by giving Hamas what it says it wants is the right thing to do, you think.

Israel has caused the terrorist attacks against it, by refusing to ratify a two-state solution that is acceptable to Hamas, is your analysis.
I wish there was some consistency. Now you accept that Hamas would accept, indeed it wants a two state solution?

Peace and lack of terrorism from both sides would be excellent. Jewish terrorists have committed over 500 acts of terrorism against Palestinians in the West Bank since 7 October, resulting in ethnic cleansing. Should they be rewarded by maintaining the status quo? Should we reward the state that murders a paralysed man in his hospital bed? That machine guns a six year old girl, that bombs an ambulance granted free passage, that demolishes universities and civilian housing? The Israeli government is committed to a greater Israel from the sea to the river, some members openly speak of “Erasing the Gaza Strip from the face of the earth.”

https://apnews.com/article/israel-pa...dfb80f8a030724

https://www.trtworld.com/middle-east...-gaza-16537146
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Old 16th February 2024, 02:46 AM   #4010
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
I wish there was some consistency. Now you accept that Hamas would accept, indeed it wants a two state solution?
Nope. Please improve your reading comprehension.
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Old 16th February 2024, 03:22 AM   #4011
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There are no people doing bad things in Israel/Palestine. They are always the victims, never the aggressors. To say otherwise is antisemitism/islamophobia. T=0 for them and their supporters is the last bad thing the other side did. Everything their side have done before then is ignored or claimed to be a just response to the bad thing the other side did.

And so the positive feedback loop of escalation continues...
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Old 16th February 2024, 07:13 AM   #4012
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Despite official denials, Egypt is apparently (based on eye-witnesses) constructing a zone in their portion of Rafah for Palestinians to go to, if they end up pushing across the fenceline boundary.

https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-787279
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Old 16th February 2024, 08:28 AM   #4013
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
Despite official denials, Egypt is apparently (based on eye-witnesses) constructing a zone in their portion of Rafah for Palestinians to go to, if they end up pushing across the fenceline boundary.

https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-787279
Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
1) Raze Gaza
2) Pile up survivors on Egypt's border
3) Play a game of humanitarian chicken by denying supplies until Egypt blinks first and lets them in so they don't all die of disease and starvation <- We are here
4) Mission accomplished, redraw borders, it's their problem now
5) Now do the West Bank
Except they're upping the ante by bombing their own evacuation camps too, can't believe I didn't think of that.

[ETA]
Originally Posted by Ivor the Engineer View Post
There are no people doing bad things in Israel/Palestine. They are always the victims, never the aggressors. To say otherwise is antisemitism/islamophobia. T=0 for them and their supporters is the last bad thing the other side did. Everything their side have done before then is ignored or claimed to be a just response to the bad thing the other side did.

And so the positive feedback loop of escalation continues...
Well, that's how blood feuds work. The tragedy is there really are genuine overtures of peace from both sides - there have to be for the "betrayals" to have the desired sting - but they're both less sincere than the side making them want them to seem, and more sincere than the side receiving them want to perceive. The 2018-2019 non-violent protests in Gaza (led by Hamas) were a genuine push for peaceful unification and might even have worked, except one of the sticking points the protesters wouldn't bend on was extending the unification offer to extranational Palestinian refugees as well (which would have made Arab ethnicities the majority in unified-Israel if everyone decided to "come home" at once), while the IDF wouldn't stop shooting protestors in the kneecaps. So it fizzled out eventually.

Last edited by Beelzebuddy; 16th February 2024 at 08:47 AM.
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Old 16th February 2024, 08:33 AM   #4014
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
I wish there was some consistency. Now you accept that Hamas would accept, indeed it wants a two state solution?
No, I do not accept that Hamas wants that. It is entirely consistent for me to talk about what Hamas says it wants, distinct from what I believe Hamas actually wants.

Furthermore, it's a hypothetical. I'm stipulating to Hercules's claim about what Hamas wants. I'm not making that claim myself.
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Old 16th February 2024, 04:29 PM   #4015
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BREAKING NEWS -- Riots begin on Rafah/Egypt border

Reports are now filtering in of rioting and explosions at Rafah Crossing, the fenceline/gate with Egypt.

Egypt says they aren't building a 'camp' for Palestinians who manage to break through the border, but several journalists have identified that construction happening.

Israeli politician Gantz has declared that unless the hostages are all freed immediately (not in dribs and drabs) the IDF is prepared to take action in Rafah and bring the whole place down, no ifs ands or buts.
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Old 16th February 2024, 05:49 PM   #4016
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-st..._and_Palestine

Care to rethink your position now?
I repeat: In one way ..and that way only..it is like Northern Ireland;The Killing will continue until both sides are sick of it and are ready to make a deal;sadly, neighter side seems near that point.
It's the timeline that makes the comparasions some here have made with Ireland silly. They are way to optimistic there.
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Old 16th February 2024, 05:51 PM   #4017
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
Reports are now filtering in of rioting and explosions at Rafah Crossing, the fenceline/gate with Egypt.

Egypt says they aren't building a 'camp' for Palestinians who manage to break through the border, but several journalists have identified that construction happening.

Israeli politician Gantz has declared that unless the hostages are all freed immediately (not in dribs and drabs) the IDF is prepared to take action in Rafah and bring the whole place down, no ifs ands or buts.
Problem is that will kill a lot of hostages.
BUt history repeast itself in one way in 56 and 67Rafah was the site of tank battles with Egypt. it was the gateway to the Sinai.
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Old 16th February 2024, 05:53 PM   #4018
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Except they're upping the ante by bombing their own evacuation camps too, can't believe I didn't think of that.

[ETA]

Well, that's how blood feuds work. The tragedy is there really are genuine overtures of peace from both sides - there have to be for the "betrayals" to have the desired sting - but they're both less sincere than the side making them want them to seem, and more sincere than the side receiving them want to perceive. The 2018-2019 non-violent protests in Gaza (led by Hamas) were a genuine push for peaceful unification and might even have worked, except one of the sticking points the protesters wouldn't bend on was extending the unification offer to extranational Palestinian refugees as well (which would have made Arab ethnicities the majority in unified-Israel if everyone decided to "come home" at once), while the IDF wouldn't stop shooting protestors in the kneecaps. So it fizzled out eventually.
Israel is not gointg to sign it's own death warrant,
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Last edited by dudalb; 16th February 2024 at 06:00 PM.
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Old 16th February 2024, 05:55 PM   #4019
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And I see we still have the "I am not an apologist for HAMAS but"...routine goine on.
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Old 16th February 2024, 05:59 PM   #4020
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
Despite official denials, Egypt is apparently (based on eye-witnesses) constructing a zone in their portion of Rafah for Palestinians to go to, if they end up pushing across the fenceline boundary.

https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-787279
This is having a bad impact on Egypt because...and I am not joking...GAZA is killing the Tourist Industry. Egypt is heavily dependent on Tourism for it;s income.
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Old 17th February 2024, 06:24 AM   #4021
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
This is having a bad impact on Egypt because...and I am not joking...GAZA is killing the Tourist Industry. Egypt is heavily dependent on Tourism for it;s income.
So is Israel, although it has more leeway to absorb the loss, because of computer tech and nano-tech and medical tech.
(See: Google/Alphabet and Intel and Microsoft, etc.)

Also, Israel has many, many dislocated residents in both North and South, due to ongoing barrages of rocket fire (and entire communites wiped-out in some cases from 10-7). Not to mention the tens of thousands of regular working men who are now wearing their army boots, on the ground in Gaza.
https://www.jpost.com/business-and-i...article-787238
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Old 21st February 2024, 04:12 AM   #4022
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There is no peace plan, there never was. There is no vision, no policy, that is not the Zionist pursuit of Greater Israel. Palestinians should leave, or die. That is the plan, the only plan. Everyone knows it, too. Genocide, so yesterday. Dawn breaks over a new world, one of stratified humanity, where the Declaration of Independence provokes laughter and derision. Imagine some lowly POS Palestinian attempting to proclaim...

"We hold these truths to be self-evident ... created equal... certain unalienable Rights.... That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed... That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government..."

We know they would not, not after it has been amply demonstrated that such values are empty, coming as they do from empty people, used only as excuses to drop bombs. No. They are far too radicalized. So lets blame them. Besides, once the cleansing is over, we can all go shopping along a new beach front!
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Old 21st February 2024, 04:25 AM   #4023
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
There is-Nah. Snipped.
Shouty shouty shouty shouty.
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Old 21st February 2024, 08:35 AM   #4024
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Shouty shouty shouty shouty.
You do one little genocide and everyone gets so upset for some reason.
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Old 21st February 2024, 12:20 PM   #4025
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
You do one little genocide and everyone gets so upset for some reason.
As I’ve said before, a piss poor genocide it is. 1.5 million Gazans and 29,000 reportedly dead according to serial lying Hamas sources.
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Old 21st February 2024, 03:17 PM   #4026
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Mod InfoThe discussion continues here.
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