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Old 18th February 2024, 08:16 PM   #1881
sir drinks-a-lot
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Listen guys, just because there is no evidence that supports the "good guy with a gun" argument and there is a cubic butt-ton of evidence that disproves it doesn't mean what you're saying is logical....
After about twenty back and forth posts it'd turn out that you're using a totally straw version of some imaginary "good guy with a gun" argument or some fringe quote you found in the dusty corners of the Internet.

No thanks.
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Old 19th February 2024, 04:11 PM   #1882
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Change in Concealed Carry Law Did Not Drive Violent Crime in Ohio Cities, Study Shows

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Old 19th February 2024, 04:19 PM   #1883
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Originally Posted by Trausti View Post
Fixed the tags for you.
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Old 20th February 2024, 02:51 PM   #1884
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2 men charged with murder in Kansas City Chiefs rally shooting.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/20/us/tw...arade-shooting
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Old 20th February 2024, 03:12 PM   #1885
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Originally Posted by Trausti View Post
Wait, so you're saying making it easier to carry a concealed firearm did NOT increase the rate of gun crimes?

How is this possible?
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Old 20th February 2024, 03:14 PM   #1886
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Originally Posted by Trausti View Post
(But it's still way higher in Ohio than it is in Jersey, where there's no carry. Coincidence? Or something more?)
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Old 20th February 2024, 03:27 PM   #1887
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
(But it's still way higher in Ohio than it is in Jersey, where there's no carry. Coincidence? Or something more?)
I don't know how I feel about "Constitutional Carry." Don't really have a problem with asking people to first get a permit, so long as issuance is not limited to the subjective discretion of some public bureaucrat. But, surely, law-abiding people ought to be able to defend themselves from criminals. And if the criminal is apprehensive that his would-be victim might be armed, so much the better.

Last edited by Trausti; 20th February 2024 at 03:28 PM.
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Old 20th February 2024, 03:46 PM   #1888
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Originally Posted by Trausti View Post
I don't know how I feel about "Constitutional Carry." Don't really have a problem with asking people to first get a permit, so long as issuance is not limited to the subjective discretion of some public bureaucrat. But, surely, law-abiding people ought to be able to defend themselves from criminals. And if the criminal is apprehensive that his would-be victim might be armed, so much the better.
Yes, and I'm very sympathetic to the idea of people being able to defend themselves by any means at their disposal, and in particular, for a smallish woman who could be easily overpowered. I can't come up with any reason to tell her she should not be allowed to use lethal force to keep herself or her children safe, especially when she lacks the muscle to put up a fight.

But looking at the data, no carry simply works. Jersey has had it for generations, and we are way down at the bottom of the gun violence rankings. It's a tough metric to dispute. What will be instructive to see is when we (inevitably) revert to carry, what happens to our gun violence rate?
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Old 20th February 2024, 04:04 PM   #1889
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
But looking at the data, no carry simply works. Jersey has had it for generations, and we are way down at the bottom of the gun violence rankings. It's a tough metric to dispute. What will be instructive to see is when we (inevitably) revert to carry, what happens to our gun violence rate?
It's really not about allowing / or disallowing. A criminal isn't going to care either way. Montana, New Hamsphire, Wyoming, Vermont, Idaho, etc., have high gun ownship and less intentional gun homicide than New Jersey. And in New Jersey, from what I can find, there are areas of high intentional gun homicide - namely the big cities - while the rest of the State is like Idaho. I'd doubt that in those gun homicide hot spots the perps are legally carrying. So allowing citizens to carry, with a permit or not, would probably not change the stats.
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Old 20th February 2024, 05:16 PM   #1890
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Originally Posted by Trausti View Post
It's really not about allowing / or disallowing. A criminal isn't going to care either way. Montana, New Hamsphire, Wyoming, Vermont, Idaho, etc., have high gun ownship and less intentional gun homicide than New Jersey. And in New Jersey, from what I can find, there are areas of high intentional gun homicide - namely the big cities - while the rest of the State is like Idaho. I'd doubt that in those gun homicide hot spots the perps are legally carrying. So allowing citizens to carry, with a permit or not, would probably not change the stats.
True enough, regarding cities being the hot spots for shootings, but Idaho? This is the State with the nation's highest population density, and the only one where every single county is designated "urban". Sparsely populated potato farms, we're not.

My concern is from knowing my fellow Jerseyans. Not crazy about the idea of my beloved yahoo citizenry suddenly being allowed to carry and discovering a new way to resolve conflicts that up till now only resulted in broken noses. I mean, give a brother a hammer and he's a-gonna be looking to do something with it.
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Old 20th February 2024, 05:23 PM   #1891
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
My concern is from knowing my fellow Jerseyans. Not crazy about the idea of my beloved yahoo citizenry suddenly being allowed to carry and discovering a new way to resolve conflicts that up till now only resulted in broken noses. I mean, give a brother a hammer and he's a-gonna be looking to do something with it.
But they could do that anyway, regardless of the law. Gun restriction laws only harm law-abidding people because those are the people who'll follow them.
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Old 20th February 2024, 05:40 PM   #1892
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"A criminal isn't going to care" assumes that the gun is easy to get. This is because of the absolute overabundance of guns in American culture.
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Old 20th February 2024, 05:45 PM   #1893
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
"A criminal isn't going to care" assumes that the gun is easy to get. This is because of the absolute overabundance of guns in American culture.
London crime: The boroughs with the highest gun crime rates as 13 see spikes in last 12 months

And, of course, in a country with open borders, laws really have no meaning.
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Old 20th February 2024, 05:48 PM   #1894
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Sweden’s new normal: Bombs in the suburbs on a weeknight

Quote:
So far this year there have been 134 bomb attacks in Sweden, up from 90 in all of 2022. At the same time, the number of shootings remains very high compared with other European states: 289 so far this year and 391 in 2022, in a country of 10 million people.
If only murder was illegal, that'll stop it.
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Old 20th February 2024, 06:06 PM   #1895
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Originally Posted by Trausti View Post
Fixed link.
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Old 20th February 2024, 06:13 PM   #1896
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Originally Posted by Trausti View Post
London crime: The boroughs with the highest gun crime rates as 13 see spikes in last 12 months

And, of course, in a country with open borders, laws really have no meaning.
And now compare the gun crime rate per capita for London and, say, any random city of 10 million in the United States.
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Old 20th February 2024, 08:32 PM   #1897
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
After about twenty back and forth posts it'd turn out that you're using a totally straw version of some imaginary "good guy with a gun" argument or some fringe quote you found in the dusty corners of the Internet.

No thanks.
Errr, no, not a logic fail at all.

Our news reports here said that there were "at least" 800 armed active police on duty managing the crowds, and that Missouri gun laws allow open carry so it was likely some of the civilians were armed.

The NRA "good guy with a gun" meme has been around for ages, which I'm sure you know. It is specifically used to justify to the gun-nuts that an armed populace is a polite, safe populace. It has been echoed by the wingnuts like Bobert and EmptyG regularly, in support of 2A rights and open carry. (Colorado Barbie especially - she likes to pack heat herself.)

I was not the first to raise the failure of this meme either. But it was glaringly obvious to anyone with a lick of common sense that it had no basis in reality.

So no. No logic fail for the Missouri shooting. It proves this stupid meme is so badly wrong that it costs lives.
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Old 20th February 2024, 09:29 PM   #1898
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Errr, no, not a logic fail at all.

Our news reports here said that there were "at least" 800 armed active police on duty managing the crowds, and that Missouri gun laws allow open carry so it was likely some of the civilians were armed.

The NRA "good guy with a gun" meme has been around for ages, which I'm sure you know. It is specifically used to justify to the gun-nuts that an armed populace is a polite, safe populace. It has been echoed by the wingnuts like Bobert and EmptyG regularly, in support of 2A rights and open carry. (Colorado Barbie especially - she likes to pack heat herself.)

I was not the first to raise the failure of this meme either. But it was glaringly obvious to anyone with a lick of common sense that it had no basis in reality.

So no. No logic fail for the Missouri shooting. It proves this stupid meme is so badly wrong that it costs lives.
This is your attempt at starting the 20 back and forth that I mentioned. What you're referring to as the "good guy with a gun meme" will end up being some silly straw man.
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Old 20th February 2024, 09:33 PM   #1899
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
This is your attempt at starting the 20 back and forth that I mentioned.
No. Also, don't care if it does.

Quote:
What you're referring to as the "good guy with a gun meme" will end up being some silly straw man.
OK, the facts of a very real situation are just...what, a strawman? But you don't want to address, just be a soothsayer. No wuckers for me, mate.
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Old 21st February 2024, 12:46 AM   #1900
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Originally Posted by Trausti View Post
I don't know how I feel about "Constitutional Carry." Don't really have a problem with asking people to first get a permit, so long as issuance is not limited to the subjective discretion of some public bureaucrat. But, surely, law-abiding people ought to be able to defend themselves from criminals. And if the criminal is apprehensive that his would-be victim might be armed, so much the better.
And yet, in Canada where handguns are very difficult to get and concealed carry all but illegal, violent crime is much worse than in the United States:
  • Murder rate per million people: 3 times that of Canada
  • Rapes per million people: 16 times that of Canada
  • Murders committed by youth per million: 6 times that of Canada

It's almost as if everyone having a gun is more dangerous.

Source: www . nationmaster . com/country-info/compare/Canada/United-States/Crime
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Last edited by Blue Mountain; 21st February 2024 at 12:48 AM.
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Old 21st February 2024, 11:02 AM   #1901
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
And yet, in Canada where handguns are very difficult to get and concealed carry all but illegal, violent crime is much worse than in the United States:
  • Murder rate per million people: 3 times that of Canada
  • Rapes per million people: 16 times that of Canada
  • Murders committed by youth per million: 6 times that of Canada

It's almost as if everyone having a gun is more dangerous.

Source: www . nationmaster . com/country-info/compare/Canada/United-States/Crime
It's different demographics. But they made an alternate thread on that.

Last edited by Trausti; 21st February 2024 at 11:06 AM.
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Old 21st February 2024, 04:17 PM   #1902
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Originally Posted by Trausti View Post
It's different demographics. But they made an alternate thread on that.
Are Americans just inherently more violent than Canadians?
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Old 21st February 2024, 04:33 PM   #1903
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Are Americans just inherently more violent than Canadians?
It's harder to get worked up about stuff when its really cold out, plus they have hockey. We shoot things. Its what we do.
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Old 23rd February 2024, 02:21 PM   #1904
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
It's harder to get worked up about stuff when its really cold out, plus they have hockey. We shoot things. Its what we do.
Not necessarily!

4 men seriously injured in shooting in White Rock, B.C.
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Old 23rd February 2024, 11:35 PM   #1905
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Originally Posted by Trausti View Post
Sigh. You're assuming that just because something happened in Canada in winter, it must be cold outside. You're wrong. The overnight low in White Rock, BC on February 22 was above freezing at 4°C, or39° F. The daytime high was 10°C/50°C.

You fit very well the stereotype of the ignorant American.
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