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Old 28th February 2024, 02:47 PM   #201
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Yeah I personally do not get the lefts obsession with student debt relief as Biden is trying to do it.

Someone could be making $249,000/year if they have a non-working spouse, And get their debt paid by the taxpayers of America?! And I paid off my loans many years ago and make a fraction of that. What the actual ****?! Where is my payout? I'd be OK if it was tied to say underpaid teachers or social workers or something who went to state schools.
I am old fashioned: If you borrow money, you should pay it back.
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Old 28th February 2024, 02:50 PM   #202
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Problem ithe people who want to replace Bidne is they generally want to replace him with somebody who is so far to the left that he will be toast in November.
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Old 28th February 2024, 02:55 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Trump will chicken out of any debate - there is no upside for him in one.
People sometimes say this as though it were a known fact. It is not. Why do people think that Trump cares about arguing honestly? He does not. Would he worry that he is going to be caught out not knowing the details of any policy? Of course not! He will just filibuster any attempt to keep him honest and likely steamroller Biden when he tries to speak.

Sure, Trump didnít turn up for the debates in the primaries because he had no need to be there as he was already going to win. In the general election he might think he has more to gain in the debates.
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Old 28th February 2024, 03:00 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Problem ithe people who want to replace Bidne is they generally want to replace him with somebody who is so far to the left that he will be toast in November.
No, people also named people like Newsom or Whitmer. I donít think they are too far to the left.

The problem is that politics is so image-oriented and clearly relies a lot on campaigning. Itís an indictment of not only the American system but also, sadly, human nature, that people are biased towards image and appearance of energy which Biden is sadly lacking. I think his politics are largely okay and he has got a lot done. Thatís great, but sadly the characteristics and skill set that make a good campaigner are not always the same as those who make an effective president.
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Old 28th February 2024, 03:01 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I’m well aware of how his show operates. Both you and SG are agreeing with me in ways that make it sound like you are correcting me.

The criticism is not of Seth Meyers who is just doing his show with scripted gags and pat-a-cake banter because I expect no different.

The criticism is of how Biden looks unable to perform well when asked to perform even under those circumstances.
And yet some people thought he did fine. It’s almost as if your scathing take is overblown, not remotely objective, and overall just silly.

Last edited by johnny karate; 28th February 2024 at 03:06 PM.
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Old 28th February 2024, 03:06 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Me too. If I could vote, Biden would get my vote every time. But what is Biden going to do about debates? Is he going to debate Trump, because I dread to see what will happen.
The perpetuation of the myth that Trump is to be feared as a razor-sharp debater from the ďBiden is senileĒ camp is as tiresome as it is out of touch with reality.
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Old 28th February 2024, 03:06 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Problem ithe people who want to replace Bidne is they generally want to replace him with somebody who is so far to the left that he will be toast in November.
Not me, I want to replace him with the most electable dem possible: left, right, middle, don't care anyone that has a better chance of beating trump, which is literally almost anyone with a pulse.
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Old 28th February 2024, 03:12 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I am old fashioned: If you borrow money, you should pay it back.
Whatís the US National debt right now? 34 trillion dollars or something? Come on, pay it back!
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Old 28th February 2024, 04:08 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
And yet some people thought he did fine. Itís almost as if your scathing take is overblown, not remotely objective, and overall just silly.
This is why I encouraged people to watch it for themselves and make up their own minds.

My "scathing take" is not overblown, in my opinion. I pointed out that his performance wasn't particularly good even in the most softball format. You missed the point by explaining to me that Seth Meyers's talk show is a softball venue. Yes, I know that.

Now, if this is the best he can do with a completely hospitable and amicable interviewer, how is he supposed to deal with a more hostile or probing one? I am assuming that not only would he not do well, but he and his team know that, which is why he doesn't subject himself to that scrutiny.

Sorry, I know this is not what supporters of Biden are supposed to say, and I know there are all kinds of politically expedient reasons why people shouldn't foreground Biden's ailing communication skills, but this is just another example of pissing down my leg and telling me it's raining.

In the UK, where I am from, Boris Johnson was roundly, and rightly criticized for ducking interviews, hiding in a fridge on one occasion, which is just a way of making himself unaccountable to the press.

It is not defensible, in my humble opinion, to be this isolated from the public, and I feel that the people saying otherwise are acting in the manner of commissars, demanding that people shut up about the obvious deficiencies of a candidate, to stop pointing it out to the proles who otherwise won't notice.

Not having it. I can see with my own eyes that this could be a PR disaster waiting to happen. I really hope he proves me wrong and puts in a barnstorming State of the Union address. I can be swayed, but things like the Seth Meyers interview sway me the wrong way.
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Old 28th February 2024, 04:17 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
The perpetuation of the myth that Trump is to be feared as a razor-sharp debater from the ďBiden is senileĒ camp is as tiresome as it is out of touch with reality.
Dude, I am not arguing either that Trump is razor sharp in debates or that Biden is senile.

Trump is a boor and a bully, and unfortunately that is what is likely to be bad for Biden who I don't think has the necessary venom or intonation or stage presence to stand up to Trump's bluster.

What you need on the debate stage is someone pugilistic who can rhetorically grab Trump by the collar and yell at him about what a loser he is.
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Old 28th February 2024, 04:41 PM   #211
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there’s nothing to gain for biden to debate so i don’t think he will
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Old 28th February 2024, 04:54 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
thereís nothing to gain for biden to debate so i donít think he will
That is basically what I assume.
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Old 28th February 2024, 05:32 PM   #213
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There is nothing to be gained for anyone for there to be a debate. They've never been anything but a..... glibness contest, which is not a necessary quality for a head of state.

That being said, I think it would be worse for Biden. Trump is a bully and pretty good with ad lib, Biden, not so much.

Edit, the debates weren't worthless when they were run by the League of Women Voters but after the parties took them over, they've been totally useless.

Last edited by ahhell; 28th February 2024 at 05:35 PM.
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Old 28th February 2024, 05:35 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
There is nothing to be gained for anyone for there to be a debate. They've never been anything but a..... glibness contest, which is not a necessary quality for a head of state.
I mean, none of the aspects of campaigning really are, as I have said. But that's where we are, people vote according to the image they present of themselves. Given the REALITY of how the game is played, it is important to have someone who can play the game well. If that sucks, then, well...take it up with reality.
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Old 28th February 2024, 06:38 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
This is why I encouraged people to watch it for themselves and make up their own minds.

My "scathing take" is not overblown, in my opinion. I pointed out that his performance wasn't particularly good even in the most softball format. You missed the point by explaining to me that Seth Meyers's talk show is a softball venue. Yes, I know that.

Now, if this is the best he can do with a completely hospitable and amicable interviewer, how is he supposed to deal with a more hostile or probing one? I am assuming that not only would he not do well, but he and his team know that, which is why he doesn't subject himself to that scrutiny.

Sorry, I know this is not what supporters of Biden are supposed to say, and I know there are all kinds of politically expedient reasons why people shouldn't foreground Biden's ailing communication skills, but this is just another example of pissing down my leg and telling me it's raining.

In the UK, where I am from, Boris Johnson was roundly, and rightly criticized for ducking interviews, hiding in a fridge on one occasion, which is just a way of making himself unaccountable to the press.

It is not defensible, in my humble opinion, to be this isolated from the public, and I feel that the people saying otherwise are acting in the manner of commissars, demanding that people shut up about the obvious deficiencies of a candidate, to stop pointing it out to the proles who otherwise won't notice.

Not having it. I can see with my own eyes that this could be a PR disaster waiting to happen. I really hope he proves me wrong and puts in a barnstorming State of the Union address. I can be swayed, but things like the Seth Meyers interview sway me the wrong way.
First of all, no one is demanding that you shut up. But when you make subjective claims and then insist those claims are in fact reality, itís perfectly fair to point out that youíre just some rando making bare assertions.

Maybe you think your criticisms of Bidenís appearance on a late night talk show are valid and important, but in the very same way you read Bidenís performance as indicative of a problem, I read those criticisms as petty and silly.

Opinions vary and weíre all entitled to our own. But when you confuse your opinions with objective fact, maybe itís time for some self-reflection.
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Old 28th February 2024, 06:44 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Dude, I am not arguing either that Trump is razor sharp in debates or that Biden is senile.

Trump is a boor and a bully, and unfortunately that is what is likely to be bad for Biden who I don't think has the necessary venom or intonation or stage presence to stand up to Trump's bluster.

What you need on the debate stage is someone pugilistic who can rhetorically grab Trump by the collar and yell at him about what a loser he is.
Itís weird that you act like we havenít been here before, as if we have no idea how Biden would fare in a debate with Trump. We do and it actually turned out okay.
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Old 28th February 2024, 06:52 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
First of all, no one is demanding that you shut up. But when you make subjective claims and then insist those claims are in fact reality, itís perfectly fair to point out that youíre just some rando making bare assertions.

Maybe you think your criticisms of Bidenís appearance on a late night talk show are valid and important, but in the very same way you read Bidenís performance as indicative of a problem, I read those criticisms as petty and silly.

Opinions vary and weíre all entitled to our own. But when you confuse your opinions with objective fact, maybe itís time for some self-reflection.
Iíve said already that people can judge for themselves. So your claim that I am confusing my opinion with objective fact is objectively wrong.

But while we talk about objective facts, maybe you can answer this.

Did Biden talk about the 2020 agenda when he was asked about the 2024 agenda?

Did Biden repeat the anecdote about Trump calling Congress to tell them not to pass legislation that will help Biden?
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Old 28th February 2024, 06:54 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Itís weird that you act like we havenít been here before, as if we have no idea how Biden would fare in a debate with Trump. We do and it actually turned out okay.
I hope that continues to be true. I think we would have more evidence of that if he was willing to do interviews with non-accommodating interviewers.
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Old 28th February 2024, 07:12 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
.... It's like he's figured out that that kind of thing is a safe thing to say when he realizes he can't figure out something substantive & on-topic to say.
Mind reader are you now?


Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
....And some party insiders have recently admitted he's been practically feinsteining his way through internal party events like fundraisers, taking only pre-scripted questions for which he carries notes cards with the answers.
Gossip from Party insiders? No citations, just your word for it?

You are not supporting your case here.


Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
.... A stupid answer even with the correct year. What "job" is he working on that's less than four years from completion? There doesn't seem to be anything in particular that he's made roughly 50% progress on so far, or any sign of any one particular big "job" with such an identifiable goal & deadline that he's been even trying to work toward.
This is silly. Do you think he plans to twiddle his thumbs for 4 years? There's a lot to be done starting with Ukraine/Russia; Israel/Hamas; maybe investigating what the Saudis got in return for 2 billion dollars; stopping Trump's destruction of democracy; the voting rights act needs to be passed again; universal abortion rights .....


Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
.... Finally managing to "call out" a smidgeon of the horrors Israel's been committing, one time after week/months/whatever-it's-been of supporting it all, is nothing. If you really actually have any opposition to genocide, you say so from the start and don't keep sending the genociders more stuff to help them keep on genociding more & more.
And what has Trump done? He said he was friends with Putin and Netanyahu as if that means he can straighten things out with a phone call or something. The man is so full of himself and those idiot MAGAS believe him.


Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
....Rachel Maddow recently used, literally verbatim, "he rides a bike" as her proof that age isn't affecting him. I wonder how long it's been since he's been seen doing that. His walk has definitely gotten stiffer.
No, that was not her sole measure of anything except he's more physically fit than Trump who can't walk a golf course, he has to use a golf cart.

Trump rode golf cart while G7 leaders walked through Sicily
Quote:
The Times of London reported the six other world leaders ó from Britain, Canada, France, Germany, Italy and Japan ó walked 700 yards to take a group photo at a piazza in a hilltop town. The U.S. leader decided to wait until he could get a golf cart.
How far is 700 yards? It's 0.4 miles.

G7 leaders took a stroll in Sicily ó and Trump followed them in a golf cart
Quote:
... Trump arrived last for the photo as the 6 other leaders stood waiting for him. ...
How embarrassing.


I'll repeat what I said upthread, O'Donnell made a good case for it's too late for anyone to replace Biden on the ticket.
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Old 28th February 2024, 07:19 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Exactly! Most of it was clearly scripted. A few softball questions that he could swat away with jokes, etcÖ

But it doesnít look good when he repeats himself seemingly unaware he has just made the point about Trump telling Congress not to accept the border deal because it will help Biden.

Did you notice Biden doing that or do you just hear what you want to hear and disregard the rest?
He said it twice that Trump is blocking the border legislation and that bothers you?

Scripted? Did he memorize the script? Was there a hidden teleprompter with giant font since he didn't have glasses on?

I have supported what I heard multiple times in this thread. Most everyone else makes stuff up like pretending those were scripted answers with no proof whatsoever.
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Old 28th February 2024, 07:23 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Dude, I am not arguing either that Trump is razor sharp in debates or that Biden is senile.

Trump is a boor and a bully, and unfortunately that is what is likely to be bad for Biden who I don't think has the necessary venom or intonation or stage presence to stand up to Trump's bluster.

What you need on the debate stage is someone pugilistic who can rhetorically grab Trump by the collar and yell at him about what a loser he is.
You mean like during the 2020 debate when he said to Trump, "Will you shut up, man?"
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Old 28th February 2024, 07:25 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
He said it twice that Trump is blocking the border legislation and that bothers you?

Scripted? Did he memorize the script? Was there a hidden teleprompter with giant font since he didn't have glasses on?

I have supported what I heard multiple times in this thread. Most everyone else makes stuff up like pretending those were scripted answers with no proof whatsoever.
The bits that were obviously, in my view, scripted, were some of the jokes and the bit where Biden got up to walk off. Not that the entire interview was scripted. Stage-managed is probably a better word for it. And before anyone says ďthatís what these shows are always likeĒ that is my point.
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Old 28th February 2024, 07:25 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Iím well aware of how his show operates. Both you and SG are agreeing with me in ways that make it sound like you are correcting me.

Is this your way of back peddling? You're certainly not agreeing with me when you claim:
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
The criticism is not of Seth Meyers who is just doing his show with scripted gags and pat-a-cake banter because I expect no different.

The criticism is of how Biden looks unable to perform well when asked to perform even under those circumstances.
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Old 28th February 2024, 07:26 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
You mean like during the 2020 debate when he said to Trump, "Will you shut up, man?"
Sure, why not?
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Old 28th February 2024, 07:27 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post

Is this your way of back peddling? You're certainly not agreeing with me when you claim:
No. Itís consistent. Iím pointing out that with a friendly interviewer who he probably worked through his routine with, he comes acrossÖ wellÖ not great.
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Old 28th February 2024, 07:30 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I am old fashioned: If you borrow money, you should pay it back.
I'm sure there must be a thread on student loans but just a quick note: A lot of borrowers were told they'd be guaranteed a well paying job when they graduated and it was a sales gimmick lie.

You don't have to be old fashioned to understand a lot of these loans were made by loan sharks. In addition the tuition was quite high as the GOP run state houses blocked funding to colleges and universities. I could go on but it's drifting off topic.
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Old 28th February 2024, 07:32 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Iíve said already that people can judge for themselves. So your claim that I am confusing my opinion with objective fact is objectively wrong.

But while we talk about objective facts, maybe you can answer this.

Did Biden talk about the 2020 agenda when he was asked about the 2024 agenda?

Did Biden repeat the anecdote about Trump calling Congress to tell them not to pass legislation that will help Biden?
Yes to both. Overall, I saw what it looks like when a perfectly healthy 81 year-old who has never been a strong public speaker goes on a talk show.

I must have missed the part where any of it was particularly concerning.
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Old 28th February 2024, 07:33 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
People sometimes say this as though it were a known fact. It is not. ...


It's as close to a guaranteed prediction as one can get without time traveling.
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Old 28th February 2024, 07:35 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Not me, I want to replace him with the most electable dem possible: left, right, middle, don't care anyone that has a better chance of beating trump, which is literally almost anyone with a pulse.
Well you're out of luck. It's Biden and he'll do fine.
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Old 28th February 2024, 07:37 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
You mean like during the 2020 debate when he said to Trump, "Will you shut up, man?"
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Old 28th February 2024, 11:30 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
People sometimes say this as though it were a known fact. It is not. Why do people think that Trump cares about arguing honestly? He does not. Would he worry that he is going to be caught out not knowing the details of any policy? Of course not! He will just filibuster any attempt to keep him honest and likely steamroller Biden when he tries to speak.

Sure, Trump didn’t turn up for the debates in the primaries because he had no need to be there as he was already going to win. In the general election he might think he has more to gain in the debates.
the point is that Trump can't control the setting, and has to share the stage with an opponent - both are no-nos.
Any moderator at this point will have a Trump Mute button on a hair trigger.
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Old 28th February 2024, 11:58 PM   #232
The Don
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
the point is that Trump can't control the setting, and has to share the stage with an opponent - both are no-nos.
Any moderator at this point will have a Trump Mute button on a hair trigger.
There is a large audience for the debates and so media companies have an incentive to see them go ahead. As a consequence they will likely agree to participants' demands so that they do go ahead

Anything on a right wing platform will absolutely be tailored to President Trump's requirements and the Democrats dare not pull out for fear of appearing weak.

If he does appear, President Trump will resist any and all attempts at moderation. He will talk over his opponent, resist any attempt to keep him on subject, lie and make false accusations and if his mic is muted, will continue shouting so that he is picked up on studio mics.
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Old 29th February 2024, 12:06 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
The perpetuation of the myth that Trump is to be feared as a razor-sharp debater from the ďBiden is senileĒ camp is as tiresome as it is out of touch with reality.
I'm not sure anyone on the left fears him as a razor sharp debater but they are aware that a debate provides another platform for his firehose of lies.

He will attempt to make a mockery of proceedings, will fight attempts to moderate him and treat it as a propaganda platform, not a debate IMO.
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Old 29th February 2024, 08:18 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I'm not sure anyone on the left fears him as a razor sharp debater but they are aware that a debate provides another platform for his firehose of lies.

He will attempt to make a mockery of proceedings, will fight attempts to moderate him and treat it as a propaganda platform, not a debate IMO.
Again, itís not clear to me why we keep treating this as a hypothetical scenario. We all know what Trump is like in a debate because we saw it when he ran for president the last two times, including when he debated Biden and subsequently got crushed by him in the election.
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Old 29th February 2024, 02:28 PM   #235
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Things I've hated in american politics for more than a decade, the debates and the party conventions. The debates are only useful for partisans to take snippets to support their pre-existing choices and the conventions are just propaganda that are also only useful for confirming pre existing opinions.

Edit to add, this time the conventions might matter, if one of the candidates dies between now and the convention, they may actually have to choose the new candidate at the convention.

Last edited by ahhell; 29th February 2024 at 02:33 PM.
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Old 29th February 2024, 04:38 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Things I've hated in american politics for more than a decade, the debates and the party conventions. The debates are only useful for partisans to take snippets to support their pre-existing choices and the conventions are just propaganda that are also only useful for confirming pre existing opinions.

Edit to add, this time the conventions might matter, if one of the candidates dies between now and the convention, they may actually have to choose the new candidate at the convention.
Ah, the conventions...

Quote:
"Go balloons, go balloons! Go balloons! I don't see anything happening. Go balloons! Go balloons! Go balloons! Standby confetti.

"Keep coming, balloons. More balloons. Bring it- balloons, balloons, balloons! We want balloons, tons of them. Bring them down. Let them all come.

"No confetti. No confetti yet. No confetti.

"All right, go balloons, go balloons. We need more balloons. All balloons! All balloons! Keep going! Come on, guys, lets move it. Jesus! We need more balloons. I want all balloons to go, goddammit.

"Go confetti. Go confetti. More confetti. I want more balloons. What's happening to the balloons? We need more balloons. We need all of them coming down. Go balloons - balloons? What's happening balloons? There's not enough coming down!

"All balloons, what the hell! There's nothing falling! What the **** are you guys doing up there? We want more balloons coming down, more balloons. More balloons. More balloons..."
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Old Yesterday, 12:18 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
You are the exception and not the rule, we shouldn't base policy on the exceptions. That being said, you are an extraordinary exception in that both your debt is much higher than typical and in not having a good paying job with STEM degree. I suppose if you just graduated last month it makes sense, otherwise.....
Do you always go the "disregard the evidence which disproves me and invent evidence which agrees with me" route? Because you are clearly doing so on student debt.
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