IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 11th December 2021, 05:13 PM   #1
Graham2001
Graduate Poster
 
Graham2001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,691
Maori Creationism in Science lessons

Good luck, it's certainly worth trying. Not so sure about other things they are doing.


There's a claim doing the rounds that they want to teach (Maori) Creationism in science classes.

Mod InfoSplit from this thread.
Posted By:zooterkin
__________________
"I need hard facts! Bring in the dowsers!"
'America Unearthed' Season 1, Episode 13: Hunt for the Holy Grail

Everybody gets it wrong sometimes...

Last edited by zooterkin; 12th December 2021 at 02:56 AM.
Graham2001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th December 2021, 06:27 PM   #2
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 35,824
Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
Good luck, it's certainly worth trying. Not so sure about other things they are doing.


There's a claim doing the rounds that they want to teach (Maori) Creationism in science classes.
Can we accept that some things are irrelevant to this discussion? And some of the points raised here do nothing but attempt to nuke the conversation. They are:

1.) governments are bad. Nothing they do is right.
2.) New Zealand is too small to care about anyway.
3.) some other crap that I want to talk about even though there are a bunch of other threads I have already spammed on this topic.
__________________
Слава Україні! **** Putin!
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th December 2021, 08:58 PM   #3
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 34,892
Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
There's a claim doing the rounds that they want to teach (Maori) Creationism in science classes.
Not quite creationism, but Maori legend is given equal prominence to science.

Richard Dawkins summed it up quite nicely: https://richarddawkins.net/2021/12/m...f-new-zealand/

The irony of teaching a neolithic people's fairytales in science class is pretty funny.

According to Maori, you can't do science without them. https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ks-controversy
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th December 2021, 11:53 PM   #4
Roger Ramjets
Philosopher
 
Roger Ramjets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 7,062
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
The irony of teaching a neolithic people's fairytales in science class is pretty funny.

Because teaching western 'science' has been such a roaring success:-
Quote:
I personally don’t have any discomfort having worked for the oil companies. All the people I worked with were just as honest and ethical as people I’ve worked with in other organizations. I don’t feel like I’m helping the “evil empire” – I don’t feel any shame. I’m just helping a company that produces a product that is still massively consumed worldwide.

I work with scientists who are like that. All their 'science' is about making more profits for the horticultural industry, while the really important stuff never gets a mention. We pretend that 'science' is some kind of higher truth that transcends culture, when in fact it is its servant. And when the culture is a capitalist society obsessed with obtaining material 'wealth' at the expense of the environment, the result is complicity and disaster.

Quote:
According to Maori, you can't do science without them. https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ks-controversy
It's called cultural insensitivity. The scientists who published that finding don't appreciate how it will be used by racists to paint Maori as being anti-environment (along with all their other failings), while Europeans and others get a pass for far worse stuff.

But burrowing deep into the article we find that,
Quote:
While the emissions were small compared with many current-day fires, he said, they were notable coming from a small island. “If you compare it to what’s coming out of the Amazon [burning] now, for instance, it’s small by comparison,” McConnell said. “What was surprising to us was that New Zealand’s got a relatively small land area, and the emissions for such a small land area were pretty large.”

Also surprising was how emissions from Māori arrivals compared with subsequent European ones. “The burning emissions from New Zealand were comparable in the 16th century to what they were soon after European arrival in New Zealand,”

Yes, early Maori - not understanding the consequences of their actions - burnt a bit of forest at the same time that Europeans were decimating theirs (only being 'saved' from disaster by switching to coal). But Maori culture changed to the point where now they are sworn to protect the land, which is more than we can say for Europe,
Quote:
Europe has lost a vastly increased area of forest to harvesting in recent years, data suggests, reducing the continent’s carbon absorption capacity and possibly indicating wider problems with the EU’s attempts to combat the climate crisis...

“The forests continue to remain a carbon sink, but less than before,” said Ceccherini. “Even if part of the harvested biomass carbon is used in long-lasting wood products, possibly replacing more energy-intensive materials such as steel or cement, most of it will return to the atmosphere as CO2 in a short period of time, [from] months to a few years.

The truth is 'science' got us into this current mess, and isn't offering a lot of help to get us out of it. Western science might be a success mathematically, but it's failing culturally. At this point we we might actually be better off teaching "neolithic people's fairytales" as a counterpoint to 'scientifically' raping the planet.
__________________
We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.

Last edited by Roger Ramjets; 12th December 2021 at 12:14 AM.
Roger Ramjets is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th December 2021, 02:07 AM   #5
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 34,892
Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
But Maori culture changed to the point where now they are sworn to protect the land...


How's that working out?

https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/...for-his-family

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300...own-has-failed
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th December 2021, 11:41 AM   #6
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 19,788
Does "Maori Science " allow for evolution?
__________________
Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th December 2021, 12:33 PM   #7
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,333
Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
I work with scientists who are like that. All their 'science' is about making more profits for the horticultural industry, while the really important stuff never gets a mention. We pretend that 'science' is some kind of higher truth that transcends culture, when in fact it is its servant. And when the culture is a capitalist society obsessed with obtaining material 'wealth' at the expense of the environment, the result is complicity and disaster.
If you're working with such scientists, doesn't that make you equally complicit?
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th December 2021, 01:58 PM   #8
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 34,892
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Does "Maori Science " allow for evolution?
Nope.

New Zealand is made up of North Island, being a fish landed by Maui, and South Island is his canoe. Stewart Island was his anchor.

No evolution.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th December 2021, 03:47 PM   #9
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 35,824
Of course it is ridiculous. Fairy tales belong in religious studies classes, not in science classes.
__________________
Слава Україні! **** Putin!
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th December 2021, 04:32 PM   #10
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,333
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Of course it is ridiculous. Fairy tales belong in religious studies classes, not in science classes.
I think what we're learning is that at the elementary school level, there's no difference. It's all received wisdom being passed on by lay instructors who are themselves products of the same system. Instructors who probably don't have any better grasp of the underlying scientific facts or their implications than the students they're "teaching".
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th December 2021, 05:26 PM   #11
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
 
Skeptical Greg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Just past ' Resume Speed ' .
Posts: 19,247
Quote:
There's a claim doing the rounds that they want to teach (Maori) Creationism in science classes.
What is the perceived downside of this?
__________________
Maybe later....
Skeptical Greg is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th December 2021, 07:04 PM   #12
ynot
Philosopher
 
ynot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Present
Posts: 9,278
Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
There's a claim doing the rounds that they want to teach (Maori) Creationism in science classes.
Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
What is the perceived downside of this?
What is the perceived upside of this?
__________________
Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos.
Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated.
Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths.

Last edited by ynot; 12th December 2021 at 07:05 PM.
ynot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th December 2021, 07:07 PM   #13
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 86,871
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
What is the perceived upside of this?
Cultural relevance.
__________________
We are living in weird times
dominated by weird people
who talk about weird ****

- Seth Meyers
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th December 2021, 07:18 PM   #14
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 34,892
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Cultural relevance.
Science doesn't have any cultural relevance.

Science does facts and evidence, hypotheses and testing. No culture. It's not white, brown, black or green.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th December 2021, 07:19 PM   #15
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 34,892
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
What is the perceived upside of this?
Like the idiotic "New Zealand Maths", it creates a subject for dummies.

Which is actually racist in itself - they're saying brown kids don't have the ability to learn complex subjects.

Cop out, bruh!
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th December 2021, 07:24 PM   #16
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 86,871
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Science doesn't have any cultural relevance.

Science does facts and evidence, hypotheses and testing. No culture. It's not white, brown, black or green.
Yeah. If I were an NZ school teacher, I think I'd use Maori culture to compare and contrast with the scientific method, but in general I don't think science class is the best place to teach culture. How is this actually playing out in the classroom?
__________________
We are living in weird times
dominated by weird people
who talk about weird ****

- Seth Meyers
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th December 2021, 07:26 PM   #17
Ron Obvious
Graduate Poster
 
Ron Obvious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 1,138
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Science doesn't have any cultural relevance.

Science does facts and evidence, hypotheses and testing. No culture. It's not white, brown, black or green.
Exactly. It's always the condescending pat on the head for ethnic minorities coming from the left with this sort of thing these days. We're not doing anybody any favours by pretending their fairy tales have scientific merit or to not hold them to the same standards and measures of accomplishment as anyone else. This sort of condescending racism will only hold them back.

The only amazing thing is that this appears to be controversial among the modern left.
__________________
"If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." -- George Orwell
Ron Obvious is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th December 2021, 07:26 PM   #18
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 34,892
Too early to tell how it's playing. It's fairly recent and even teachers don't quite understand it so far.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th December 2021, 07:28 PM   #19
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 34,892
Originally Posted by Ron Obvious View Post
The only amazing thing is that this appears to be controversial among the modern left.
Guilt complex.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th December 2021, 07:37 PM   #20
ynot
Philosopher
 
ynot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Present
Posts: 9,278
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Cultural relevance.
You think cultural relevance is a science subject that should be taught in science classes?

I see in this latter post you no longer seem to think this . . .
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yeah. If I were an NZ school teacher, I think I'd use Maori culture to compare and contrast with the scientific method, but in general I don't think science class is the best place to teach culture. How is this actually playing out in the classroom?
I will ignore your claim that teaching cultural relevance in a science class is an "upside" (as you now have done).

Perhaps Skeptical Greg may care to provide an actual answer?
__________________
Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos.
Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated.
Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths.

Last edited by ynot; 12th December 2021 at 07:45 PM.
ynot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th December 2021, 08:00 PM   #21
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 86,871
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
You think cultural relevance is a science subject that should be taught in science classes?
Sociology and anthropology are sciences, are they not?
__________________
We are living in weird times
dominated by weird people
who talk about weird ****

- Seth Meyers
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th December 2021, 10:06 PM   #22
Roboramma
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 15,981
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Sociology and anthropology are sciences, are they not?
Is this being taught as sociology and anthropology or as biology and cosmology?

If the former, it seems quite reasonable, if the latter it's nuts.
__________________
"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Isaac Asimov
Roboramma is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th December 2021, 10:11 PM   #23
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 86,871
Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Is this being taught as sociology and anthropology or as biology and cosmology?
I don't know. That's why I asked how it's actually playing out in the classroom.
__________________
We are living in weird times
dominated by weird people
who talk about weird ****

- Seth Meyers
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th December 2021, 02:19 AM   #24
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 34,892
Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Is this being taught as sociology and anthropology or as biology and cosmology?
It's at school, where science is taught as a general subject, and Maori legend in given equal prominence, so it's being taught alongside chemistry, biology and physics.

Sociology isn't part of the science curriculum.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th December 2021, 05:10 AM   #25
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,520
Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
It's called cultural insensitivity. The scientists who published that finding don't appreciate how it will be used by racists to paint Maori as being anti-environment (along with all their other failings), while Europeans and others get a pass for far worse stuff.

Great article about this bias: The Mass Suicide of the Xhosa - A Study in Collective Self-Deception (Skeptic Magazine, Vol 11, #1)
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th December 2021, 10:19 AM   #26
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 34,892
Originally Posted by dann View Post
Great article about this bias: The Mass Suicide of the Xhosa - A Study in Collective Self-Deception (Skeptic Magazine, Vol 11, #1)
Yes, a great story, but utterly irrelevant to both the discussion in place and the Maori/Antarctica study.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th December 2021, 04:58 PM   #27
Graham2001
Graduate Poster
 
Graham2001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,691
Jerry Coyne has been following this and put together a blog posting covering various comments, everyone from Richard Dawkins to the 'Daily Fail', some of it's paywalled.


Quote:
From what I hear from my Kiwi friends in academia, some of whom keep publicly quiet about these developments given the political climate, the government and universities in New Zealand are standing firm in their resolve to teach mātauranga Māori, or “Maori ways of knowing” alongside and coequal to modern (i.e., real) science in both high schools and universities. I’ve described the controversy in seveeral recent posts.


This is one example of a clash between two values of “progressive liberals”: in this case, traditional or indigenous “knowledge” is valued because it is held by oppressed groups, but its assertions, including creationism, clash with the respect that the Left is supposed to have for the findings of science. (Another example is Western feminists deliberately ignoring the oppression of women in some Muslim countries).

https://whyevolutionistrue.com/2021/...-and-colleges/


I think the sad irony in this is that when Biblical Creatonists were making their big pushes to get their 'way of knowing' taught in science classrooms one of the major skeptical retorts was that to consistent the Creationists should be demanding to teach other religiously derived ceation stories.
__________________
"I need hard facts! Bring in the dowsers!"
'America Unearthed' Season 1, Episode 13: Hunt for the Holy Grail

Everybody gets it wrong sometimes...
Graham2001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th December 2021, 05:02 PM   #28
Graham2001
Graduate Poster
 
Graham2001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,691
I found in the comments to Coynes posting a link to part of the proposed curriculum changes.


https://ncea-live-3-storagestack-53q...sionId=PZaapUE
__________________
"I need hard facts! Bring in the dowsers!"
'America Unearthed' Season 1, Episode 13: Hunt for the Holy Grail

Everybody gets it wrong sometimes...
Graham2001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th December 2021, 05:48 PM   #29
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
 
Skeptical Greg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Just past ' Resume Speed ' .
Posts: 19,247
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
What is the perceived upside of this?
I have no idea..

My question was addressed to those who think it's a good idea..
__________________
Maybe later....
Skeptical Greg is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th December 2021, 06:02 PM   #30
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 86,871
Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
I have no idea..

My question was addressed to those who think it's a good idea..
I would like to point out to my critics that the question was "what is the perceived upside of this?" and not a question about whether I personally thought it was a good idea. Those who support this idea do so because they feel that making science friendlier to indigenous cultures may engage people who might otherwise be not so engaged. That's the argument I've seen, at any rate. Similar ideas have been raised from time to time for indigenous Australian and Native American cultural beliefs, but I'm pretty sure that it's never been made national policy before.
__________________
We are living in weird times
dominated by weird people
who talk about weird ****

- Seth Meyers
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th December 2021, 06:36 PM   #31
sackett
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Detroit
Posts: 8,812
My question is, how many Maori are so far sunk in what they think is their traditional way of life that they'll be satisfied with a pakeha version of the old beliefs? How many will quickly get impatient and demand education in what they know to be essential disciplines?

How backward do en zedders think these people really are?

If you feel like answering that, remember that you'll be talking to a member of a mudsill class that was struggling to heave itself upright here in America when Abel Tasman was 28 years old. I, we, know about condescension.
__________________
When I spoke out against the bullies, they called me woke.

When I lashed them with a length of chain, they called me sir.
sackett is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th December 2021, 10:12 PM   #32
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 34,892
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Those who support this idea do so because they feel that making science friendlier to indigenous cultures may engage people who might otherwise be not so engaged.
There it is again - a completely racist idea whose basis is enshrined in the idea that they're not capable of understanding science.

Originally Posted by sackett View Post
How backward do en zedders think these people really are?
Only the loony left thinks that way, which wouldn't be a problem, except they presently occupy the Treasury benches.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th December 2021, 10:27 PM   #33
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 86,871
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
There it is again - a completely racist idea whose basis is enshrined in the idea that they're not capable of understanding science.
Okay, speaking as myself now and not as devil's advocate. I don't see why that automatically follows from the argument.
__________________
We are living in weird times
dominated by weird people
who talk about weird ****

- Seth Meyers
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th December 2021, 11:21 PM   #34
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,333
Does anyone have a count of the Maori children who are being taught creation myths that they believe to the point where they can't grasp basic elementary school instruction without being reassured of their superstition?
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th December 2021, 08:24 AM   #35
Lithrael
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,580
Yeah trying to make something that many kids might not be engaged with, related to something a little bit fun, is the same as being condescending
Lithrael is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th December 2021, 08:32 AM   #36
ahhell
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 6,535
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Sociology and anthropology are sciences, are they not?
An important question.
Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Is this being taught as sociology and anthropology or as biology and cosmology?

If the former, it seems quite reasonable, if the latter it's nuts.
This.
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
It's at school, where science is taught as a general subject, and Maori legend in given equal prominence, so it's being taught alongside chemistry, biology and physics.

Sociology isn't part of the science curriculum.
Why not? Prior to highschool, I had classes called, "science" that more or less included bits from all sorts of different fields, why not anthropology and sociology? Highschool, we had physics and biology, certainly would be inappropriate to teach various myths in those classes, so why not another class, called sociology or anthropology or what not.
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th December 2021, 09:47 AM   #37
sackett
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Detroit
Posts: 8,812
"Looney left" is one of those very short, simple, alliterating phrases that passes for content in far too much of today's political discourse, at least here on the anglophone. I'm ashamed to think that New Zealand has sunk to that level.

Kinda think the raging right is worse, if nothing else because they actually exist.

But keep playing with your Maoris. You don't even have to play nice if you don't want to.
__________________
When I spoke out against the bullies, they called me woke.

When I lashed them with a length of chain, they called me sir.

Last edited by sackett; 14th December 2021 at 09:49 AM.
sackett is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th December 2021, 09:55 AM   #38
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,333
Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Yeah trying to make something that many kids might not be engaged with, related to something a little bit fun, is the same as being condescending
If the goal were to make the science curriculum more engaging to children, this would be a very heavy-handed and gratuitously problematic way to go about it.

But I doubt that was the goal. Surely modern educators already have a well-equipped toolbox of didactic methods for gaining and retaining student interest. The age-appropriate textbooks probably come with many such tools already integrated in their lesson plans.
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th December 2021, 10:44 AM   #39
Lithrael
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,580
Yeah, a lot of this stuff gets ham-handed sure. I guess what I really mean to say is that I’d have to see what the actual boots-on-the-ground experience in the classroom is like. A lot of people talking about what it could be or what it represents or etc etc isn’t the kind of thing I find ‘actionable’ as they say.
Lithrael is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th December 2021, 03:14 PM   #40
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 34,892
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Okay, speaking as myself now and not as devil's advocate. I don't see why that automatically follows from the argument.
Because it's how it works in the real world. The classes for 2-stroke English and Maths are populated by brown kids.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Does anyone have a count of the Maori children who are being taught creation myths that they believe to the point where they can't grasp basic elementary school instruction without being reassured of their superstition?
Yep, I counted them twice.

0

Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Why not? Prior to highschool, I had classes called, "science" that more or less included bits from all sorts of different fields, why not anthropology and sociology?
Sociology isn't a pimple on science's backside, and is appropriately covered in Social Studies/Global Studies.

Originally Posted by sackett View Post
"Looney left" is one of those very short, simple, alliterating phrases that passes for content in far too much of today's political discourse, at least here on the anglophone. I'm ashamed to think that New Zealand has sunk to that level.
As someone who's voted left more than right, be assured it pisses me off that it not only exists, but has considerable power here.

Originally Posted by sackett View Post
But keep playing with your Maoris. You don't even have to play nice if you don't want to.


If only you had a clue. Maori are being gifted control over fresh water, to go along with their control of the foreshore, fishing industry, vast tracts of land, and right now, who gets to go to certain parts of the country.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:14 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.