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Tags hamas , israel

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Old 10th October 2023, 09:47 AM   #361
Lplus
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
A two state solution won't work because both sides feel their it is their God given Holy divine right to put their "state" in the exact same place because God loves them and they are special.

It is totally absurd. Like go to Google Earth, look at this area of this conflict and them zoom out just a little. There is SOOOO much empty space. It really is comical.

There is plenty of space to put a dozen settlements within a days drive of Gaza. Same general area, same climate, same access to the Med. It's not a 'this town ain't big enough for the both of us" problem it's just petulant children who both want to sit in the same chair even though there dozens of chairs they could sit in but no they both want that one.
Really? Does Israel really want that little bit of land for itself, or would it be content for the Palestininans to stay there as long as they were keeping themselves to themselves and not chucking rockets about, killing Jews and screaming for the total destruction of Israel?
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Old 10th October 2023, 09:48 AM   #362
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The Ripley Solution for the slivers of land in question looks more and more attractive. By all means evacuate them - at gun point if necessary - before nuking them, but make sure no one can live there for at least a generation.
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Old 10th October 2023, 09:56 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by Lplus View Post
Really? Does Israel really want that little bit of land for itself?
We're like 3 nested "little bit of lands" deep. Israel ain't that big, the Gaza Strip ain't that big, the areas that are (most highly) contested smaller still, all sitting in the middle of a vast unused desert that's just sitting there empty.

So no I don't honestly think that any major player in this conflict really cares about what land they have, they care about what land the other side doesn't get.

When you're everything short of literally sitting on beach that stretches on for miles, arguing over who gets 10 grains of sand from one of two handfuls of sand, IT'S NOT ABOUT THE SAND.
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Old 10th October 2023, 10:11 AM   #364
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Out of curiosity I looked for people who actually do support these attacks and at a random dip, I got a young Nigerian woman, a couple of young Palestinians, and a couple of nearly empty blogs.

And I mean support, not "That's ****** up, but I can see how they got there" and/or "That's ****** up, and saying the other guys have done some nasty things too doesn't make it any less ****** up... but they HAVE done some nasty things" or even just "doing harm to noncombatant civilians is always wrong and we can be angry and sad about it no matter what the real or percieved provocations were"

If you can see there's a difference between the inexcusable violence of these attacks and the actions of the IDF and Israel in general, I'd hope you can see the difference between actual antisemitism and just not being a whole-chest supporter of every action Israel takes.

It's weird to me to see practically any sympathy towards any Palestinians and/or criticism of Israel's actions, being treated like dogwhistles that really just mean you hate Israel/Jewish people. I mean I'm sure that "quiet part quiet" antisemites do speak that way but so do people who are just trying to evaluate the situation by their own understanding.

But then I've never understood the whole "this isn't the time or place for" thing in general. I don't understand why it should imply I want to minimize a harm if I'm interested in discussing the story around it. If I see someone arrested for murder and I go "damn, that is too far, I did hear about how that guy cheated him last year so I guess that's what led him to do that" I'm absolutley not blaming the victim or absolving the murderer.

Why does "I can see how it got to that point" mean "so obviously I think that's right and good" to so many people?
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Old 10th October 2023, 10:11 AM   #365
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The best way to neutralize Hamas is to foster and support a unified Palestinians authority that deserves the name - and make concessions to it.
Top of that list would be to demolish illegal settlements.
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Old 10th October 2023, 10:14 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
The best way to neutralize Hamas is to foster and support a unified Palestinians authority that deserves the name - and make concessions to it.
Top of that list would be to demolish illegal settlements.
History already proved you wrong. What happened to support for Hamas when Israel withdrew all settlements in Gaza? It didn't go down.

Support for Hamas isn't based on Israel being insufficiently nice.
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Old 10th October 2023, 10:20 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by Lplus View Post
Really? Does Israel really want that little bit of land for itself, or would it be content for the Palestininans to stay there as long as they were keeping themselves to themselves and not chucking rockets about, killing Jews and screaming for the total destruction of Israel?
Well if you are discussing the two state solution then that usually includes both Gaza and West Bank.

And Israel still keeps taking little bits of West Bank for itself. Hamas is not the Palestinian Authority and Gaza is not West Bank. But I don't think you can solve either in isolation.
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Old 10th October 2023, 10:21 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Out of curiosity I looked for people who actually do support these attacks and at a random dip, I got a young Nigerian woman, a couple of young Palestinians, and a couple of nearly empty blogs.
I wish that were the full extent of it. But sadly it's not. For example:

https://twitter.com/zach_kessel/stat...36818545111422

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...V_oG--VGY/edit
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Old 10th October 2023, 10:22 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
It's weird to me to see practically any sympathy towards any Palestinians and/or criticism of Israel's actions, being treated like dogwhistles that really just mean you hate Israel/Jewish people. I mean I'm sure that "quiet part quiet" antisemites do speak that way but so do people who are just trying to evaluate the situation by their own understanding.

But then I've never understood the whole "this isn't the time or place for" thing in general. I don't understand why it should imply I want to minimize a harm if I'm interested in discussing the story around it. If I see someone arrested for murder and I go "damn, that is too far, I did hear about how that guy cheated him last year so I guess that's what led him to do that" I'm absolutley not blaming the victim or absolving the murderer.

Why does "I can see how it got to that point" mean "so obviously I think that's right and good" to so many people?
What I'm curious about is why this conflict in general triggers so many people to say the quiet part out loud? We've already gotten "apartheid was a pretty good idea" and "a little ethnic cleansing is entirely justified" in this very thread, admittedly from people I'm not at all surprised about but still I'd expect to have the sense to know better in any other context.
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Old 10th October 2023, 10:26 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Hamas is not the Palestinian Authority and Gaza is not West Bank. But I don't think you can solve either in isolation.
Why not? This assumption is common, but what if it's not true?

For a long time, people said that you couldn't have peace between Israel and its neighbors unless you solved the Palestinian issue at the same time. But that simply created an incentive to not let that problem be solved. Decoupling the two issues seemed to allow actual progress with the Abraham accords. Decoupling Gaza from the West Bank might allow for similar breakthroughs. After all, why should Hamas get veto power over Israeli relations with the Palestinian Authority?
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Old 10th October 2023, 10:27 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
What I'm curious about is why this conflict in general triggers so many people to say the quiet part out loud?
Because this is every conflict. It's East Vs West, it's Jewish vs Muslim, it's secular vs religious, AND it has the weight of WW2, the Holocaust, and a half dozen regional wars all wrapped up in its core DNA. And that's not even counting that American support for Israel is so based on American far right apocalyptic conspiracies theories.

There is SO much baggage in this conflict.

If you have a strong opinion about anything beyond Wheat Thins Vs Triscuits you're gonna have a strong opinion about this conflict.
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Old 10th October 2023, 10:29 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
History already proved you wrong. What happened to support for Hamas when Israel withdrew all settlements in Gaza? It didn't go down.

Support for Hamas isn't based on Israel being insufficiently nice.
total non sequitur on your part.
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Old 10th October 2023, 10:33 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
I recall exactly where I was and how I felt when Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip in 2005. I’m not claiming to be prescient, but it was a sinking feeling of “no good can come of this”. Of course, I wasn’t privy to all the information Israel had when making that decision. But still, the eventual outcome seemed inevitable.

Right now, my position would be, “We tried to coexist, and that clearly failed. The Gaza Strip is now part of Israel for Israelis - both Jewish and Arab. If you’re looking for your own homeland, we’ll certainly help expedite your relocation and coordinate with our neighbors to find land you can settle and call your own. A better life and future can exist for Palestinians - just not here.

Simplistic and naive to be sure. It’s just what my gut tells me is the best path to a secure future for Israel and a way forward for Palestinians.
Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
FastEddieB, your reply to me just proves how difficult it is keeping things straight in this mess.

"anyone-who-can-get-out-i-would-advise-them-to-get-out"https://www.businesstoday.in/latest/...346-2023-10-10

That sector, at Rafiah, is going to become a flash-point as hundreds of thousands of Gazans are displaced and seek some way to distance themselves from the onslaught.

It almost seems that Israel's leaders have chosen to pursue the NewState program, to be implemented after HAMAS leaders are buried and gone.
https://www.miryaminstitute.org/comm...state-solution
This is suicide for Israel. All goodwill with the industrialized world will evaporate. This is exactly the reaction Hamas is trying to provoke.
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Old 10th October 2023, 10:47 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
total non sequitur on your part.
Not in the least. You think Hamas can be crippled by negotiations and Israeli concessions. There is no evidence to support that, and plenty of evidence to contradict that.
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Old 10th October 2023, 10:50 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
If you have a strong opinion about anything beyond Wheat Thins Vs Triscuits you're gonna have a strong opinion about this conflict.
Triscuits are the superior cracker and I will fire the ovens to prove it.
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Old 10th October 2023, 10:55 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
All goodwill with the industrialized world will evaporate.
What good has all that goodwill ever done them? What good will it do them now? Can that goodwill save a hostage? Can it prevent another attack?

I saw this in the wake of 9/11 too. Some people will only extend you good will as long as you're a victim, if you stand up for yourself it evaporates. Such sentiments are useless.
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Old 10th October 2023, 10:55 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Not in the least. You think Hamas can be crippled by negotiations and Israeli concessions. There is no evidence to support that, and plenty of evidence to contradict that.
nope, not what I said, ever.
You just assume, because that way I fit neatly in your box.
some might call it intellectually lazy.
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Old 10th October 2023, 11:48 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
At this point I'm confused as to how any conflict that's ever occurred in history has ever come to conclusion.

There's a saying, "Peace treaties are impossible until they are unnecessary."
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Old 10th October 2023, 11:50 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The Troubles came to an end when the people who advocated the use of violence agreed to stop and talk. All sides had to compromise. People regarded as terrorists had to sit down with government officials and negotiate.
That's going to require radical leadership changes in both the Knesset and Hamas. It's never going to happen with this bunch.
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Old 10th October 2023, 11:57 AM   #380
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Hamas literally exists because the PLA started negotiating with /recognizing Israel.

Like that's their stated reason for existing. We can't just not notice that.
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Old 10th October 2023, 12:11 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost View Post
I agree a 2 state solution is doomed. There will never be meaningful peace unless there is a more secular 1 state solution in which Jews and Palestinians have equal rights and freedom of conscience. This will mean the end of a solely Jewish state, which is a non-starter for Zionist hardliners.
As it should be for Zionist hardliners, softliners and everyone in between. The so called "one state solution" is nothing more than a gimmick by Israeli- eliminationists to negotiate what they so spectacularly failed to achieve on the battlefield. Namely, the death of Israel. So yea, that's a "non-starter".
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Old 10th October 2023, 12:13 PM   #382
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Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost View Post
Yes, the IRA was much more disciplined and conscientious about their targets. I find myself wondering if Israel regrets boosting Hamas as a competing organization to the PLO and PA.
I know I do.
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Old 10th October 2023, 12:35 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
This is suicide for Israel. All goodwill with the industrialized world will evaporate. This is exactly the reaction Hamas is trying to provoke.
Unless "the industrialized world" is going to fire thousands of rockets into Israeli cities it seems to me a pretty clear choice.
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Old 10th October 2023, 12:38 PM   #384
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It is correct that a brutal backlash is what Hamas is counting on.
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Old 10th October 2023, 12:40 PM   #385
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EU said some of Israel's actions "Violate Internatinal Law".

In this case, the EU can kiss my butt.
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Old 10th October 2023, 12:42 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
As it should be for Zionist hardliners, softliners and everyone in between. The so called "one state solution" is nothing more than a gimmick by Israeli- eliminationists to negotiate what they so spectacularly failed to achieve on the battlefield. Namely, the death of Israel. So yea, that's a "non-starter".
THIS.
I get the impression that the death of Five Millions Jews in Israel is an acceptable price for the "Libetration" of Palestine in the minds of some on the extreme Left. Of course they are going to deny it, but it's clear that is what they relaly think deep down.
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Old 10th October 2023, 12:43 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
It is correct that a brutal backlash is what Hamas is counting on.
You just want ISreal to turn the other cheek. Admit it. You seem opposed to ANY acton against HAMAS.
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Old 10th October 2023, 12:45 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
This is suicide for Israel. All goodwill with the industrialized world will evaporate. This is exactly the reaction Hamas is trying to provoke.
Well, IMHO the good will of the world toward Israel has never been very strong.
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Old 10th October 2023, 12:45 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I wish that were the full extent of it. But sadly it's not. For example:

https://twitter.com/zach_kessel/stat...36818545111422

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...V_oG--VGY/edit
One of those examples does not appear to actually support the attacks in any way. The other appears to be written by a Palestinian ("Israel testing weapons on us" etc). Young people in college are exactly who I'd expect to jump to support a group whose optics are 'hi we've got 3 rocks' without appreciating that how badly some of them want unmitigated violence makes it hard to go easy on the ones that are 3 years old.

ETA: The Students for Justice in Palestine thing appears to be a propaganda campaign group via college clubs, supported by American Muslims for Palestine. I'm sure they've got material prepared saying that videos of atrocities are fake or not what they look like and the IDF kills babies anyway. The stuff they are sharing are just videos of fences being knocked over. College lefties may fall for that kind of Palestinian propaganda but it's not coming from "the left."

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Old 10th October 2023, 12:46 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
I know I do.
It was a incredibly idiotic move.
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Old 10th October 2023, 12:48 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
You just want ISreal to turn the other cheek. Admit it. You seem opposed to ANY acton against HAMAS.

Wrong.

What i want is for Israel not to make the same mistake over and over.
This isn't the first time they tried to occupy Gaza and oust Hamas.

Admit it, you just want retribution, not solutions.
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Old 10th October 2023, 12:50 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The Troubles came to an end when the people who advocated the use of violence agreed to stop and talk. All sides had to compromise. People regarded as terrorists had to sit down with government officials and negotiate.
Thank you. It was nothing like Hamas vs Israel. When Gazans want the violence to stop there might be progress. Ireland shouldn’t be mentioned in this thread.
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Old 10th October 2023, 12:51 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Thank you. It was nothing like Hamas vs Israel. When Gazans want the violence to stop there might be progress. Ireland shouldn’t be mentioned in this thread.
The only corollary really is that the UK made the mess.
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Old 10th October 2023, 12:56 PM   #394
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Unless "the industrialized world" is going to fire thousands of rockets into Israeli cities it seems to me a pretty clear choice.
QFT
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Old 10th October 2023, 01:04 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Thank you. It was nothing like Hamas vs Israel. When Gazans want the violence to stop there might be progress. Ireland shouldn’t be mentioned in this thread.
In Ireland, you never had fanatics like HAMAS. Never saw the IRA , at it;s worst, do what HAMAS did.
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Old 10th October 2023, 01:05 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
The only corollary really is that the UK made the mess.
They also made a mess in their departure from India.
The Sun Never Sets On The Brits Making Messes.
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Old 10th October 2023, 01:07 PM   #397
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I hate Bibi and his cabinent of wackjobs, and think the settlement policy is idiotic, and favor a two state solution.
But this sort of secondary at the moment . Until HAMAS is crushed, there is no path forward.
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Old 10th October 2023, 01:25 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Well, IMHO the good will of the world toward Israel has never been very strong.
Correct. But without what little is remaining (especially from the US, for obvious reasons) Israel will soon find herself practically isolated, and I don't believe that's sustainable.
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Old 10th October 2023, 01:47 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Correct. But without what little is remaining (especially from the US, for obvious reasons) Israel will soon find herself practically isolated, and I don't believe that's sustainable.
That is the problem. Frankly, short of commiting suicide, I can't see what Israel can do to satify it's critics.
And, in the end, it is not even about the Palestinians. It is about Arab Oil.
I don;t think you have to worry mch about US Support, though. The "Anti Zioinist" are a pretty small percentage, who manage to make a lot of noise way out of proportion to their numbers. Thye don't have much power outside of college camapuses and trendy "Progressive " discussion groups.TYje Usual suspect, in other words.
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Last edited by dudalb; 10th October 2023 at 01:49 PM.
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Old 10th October 2023, 01:48 PM   #400
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Wrong.

What i want is for Israel not to make the same mistake over and over.
This isn't the first time they tried to occupy Gaza and oust Hamas.

Admit it, you just want retribution, not solutions.
I want retribution and solutions. Preferably hand in hand, but I'll sacrifice the retribution if I have to.
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