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Old 8th October 2023, 11:50 PM   #81
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A good factual piece on how the attack unfolded:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67046750

Quote:
The speed and deadliness of the surprise attack has stunned Israel. Questions over how it was able to happen will be asked for years.
Could we see the current Israeli government fall over such a massive failure of intelligence?
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Old 8th October 2023, 11:57 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
I expect Israel is planning to kill and destroy until Hamas begs to give the hostages back.

That’s not the way Islamist terrorists work.
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Old 8th October 2023, 11:59 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
If the reports that US Citiznes have been taken hostage, look to the US to get directly involved.

Hard to see what the US military could do that would help get American hostages back.
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Old 9th October 2023, 12:06 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
They would not be justified in razing Gaza to the ground and settling it.

What would they then do with the 2.4 million Palestinians living there?
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Old 9th October 2023, 12:22 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by jt512 View Post
What would they then do with the 2.4 million Palestinians living there?
Plenty of Arab countries like Lebanon could take in Palestinians, but they refuse to.
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Old 9th October 2023, 12:32 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by jt512 View Post
What would they then do with the 2.4 million Palestinians living there?
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Plenty of Arab countries like Lebanon could take in Palestinians, but they refuse to.

Like I said: What would they then do with the 2.4 million Palestinians living there?
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Old 9th October 2023, 12:36 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Plenty of Arab countries like Lebanon could take in Palestinians, but they refuse to.
Huh?! Of course! Why would they not refuse to take in two million refugees and be party to an act of ethnic cleansing?

Nobody should seriously be thinking that it would be a sane or proportionate response for Israel to ethnically cleanse the Gaza strip let alone cheering them on.

Jeez Louise!
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Old 9th October 2023, 12:41 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by jt512 View Post
Hard to see what the US military could do that would help get American hostages back.
Never heard of Delta Force or Seal Team Six?
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Old 9th October 2023, 12:41 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Huh?! Of course! Why would they not refuse to take in two million refugees and be party to an act of ethnic cleansing?

Nobody should seriously be thinking that it would be a sane or proportionate response for Israel to ethnically cleanse the Gaza strip let alone cheering them on.

Jeez Louise!

Since when is accepting refugees equivalent to ethnic cleansing?
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Old 9th October 2023, 12:42 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by jt512 View Post
That’s not the way Islamist terrorists work.
SO htere is nothing we can do but bend over and take it..until next time.
HAMAS Must not be allowed to win.
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Old 9th October 2023, 12:43 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
A good factual piece on how the attack unfolded:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67046750



Could we see the current Israeli government fall over such a massive failure of intelligence?
Not right now...but Bibni's postion in LIKUD has been badly damaged.
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Old 9th October 2023, 12:44 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
HAMAS Must not be allowed to win.

I agree. I suggest you reread what I was responding to.
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Old 9th October 2023, 12:44 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle View Post
Or because they saw it as an opportunity. Or because they've been given free rein in Palestine for so long they believed it could never happen.
SO HAMAS taking civilisand..including childeren..as HOstages is no big thing to you!
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Old 9th October 2023, 12:46 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Never heard of Delta Force or Seal Team Six?

I hadn't though of that.
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Old 9th October 2023, 12:48 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Never heard of Delta Force or Seal Team Six?
Note that after the rescue attempt by Delta didn't come off as planned in Iran, the follow up plan was cancelled because Iran split up the hostages.

I haven't seen numbers yet. But you can be sure the hostages are already dispersed. They are only so many operators available. You can augment them with rangers and others but this require a scale of operations nobody has seen and the odds of it going badly are high.
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Old 9th October 2023, 12:53 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Doubt View Post
Note that after the rescue attempt by Delta didn't come off as planned in Iran, the follow up plan was cancelled because Iran split up the hostages.

I haven't seen numbers yet. But you can be sure the hostages are already dispersed. They are only so many operators available. You can augment them with rangers and others but this require a scale of operations nobody has seen and the odds of it going badly are high.

My guess would be that Israeli commandos would be more capable of carrying out hostage rescues in Gaza anyway.
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Old 9th October 2023, 01:03 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Huh?! Of course! Why would they not refuse to take in two million refugees and be party to an act of ethnic cleansing?

Nobody should seriously be thinking that it would be a sane or proportionate response for Israel to ethnically cleanse the Gaza strip let alone cheering them on.

Jeez Louise!
Come on, you are better than this. If Palestinians are seeking refuge from Gaza shouldn’t Arab nations accommodate them?

Yes, I know they won’t, but it does beg the question.
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Old 9th October 2023, 01:17 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Come on, you are better than this. If Palestinians are seeking refuge from Gaza shouldn’t Arab nations accommodate them?

Yes, I know they won’t, but it does beg the question.
FTFY
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Old 9th October 2023, 01:21 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Plenty of Arab countries like Lebanon could take in Palestinians, but they refuse to.
Countries like Lebanon already have millions of refugees from conflicts such as that in Syria. I believe Lebanon already has something like 1.5 million refugees from Syria alone. Lebanon's population is around 5 million, it is a very impoverished country without an infrastructure to even support its native population. What makes you think it could handle hundreds of thousands of more refugees?

ETA: My memory was correct:

https://reporting.unhcr.org/operatio...ations/lebanon

...The Government estimates that Lebanon currently hosts approximately 1.5 million refugees from Syria,...

Public services have declined significantly with many at risk of collapse. Municipalities are also affected and are under increasing pressure but unable to provide basic services due to a lack of funding. The level of vulnerability among the Lebanese population has also increased, resulting in increased competition over scarce resources. This leads to increased frustrations, tensions and overall increased protection risks.
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Old 9th October 2023, 01:28 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Come on, you are better than this. If Palestinians are seeking refuge from Gaza shouldn’t Arab nations accommodate them?

Yes, I know they won’t, but it does beg the question.

I think the big reason why Arab nations won't accommodate them, is because it may send the wrong message to Israel:

Apply sufficient pressure to the Palestinians in Gaza, and they will eventually vacate Gaza, because there are willing hosts available.
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Old 9th October 2023, 01:40 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
SO HAMAS taking civilisand..including childeren..as HOstages is no big thing to you!
That is a non sequitur.
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Old 9th October 2023, 01:41 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by BrettM View Post
I think the big reason why Arab nations won't accommodate them, is because it may send the wrong message to Israel:

Apply sufficient pressure to the Palestinians in Gaza, and they will eventually vacate Gaza, because there are willing hosts available.
Why is it fine to be racist about who should help refugees?

Which countries do you think should take in millions of additional refugees?
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Old 9th October 2023, 01:44 AM   #103
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Israel could win big points on the international stage, probably even salvage the Saudi Deal, if they proceed with utmost caution and with as much buy-in of Palestinians as possible - this could be the watershed moment to once and for all highlight the difference in respect for Life and Rule of Law of Israel vs. Hamas.

But that would be antithetical to the militant right-wingers in government.
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Old 9th October 2023, 01:53 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Why is it fine to be racist about who should help refugees?

Which countries do you think should take in millions of additional refugees?

I think you misunderstood me. Once the Arab nations (or any other nations, for that matter) start accepting refugees, it sets a precedent. It means that Palestinians finally have somewhere to go! And Israel can continue to apply pressure, until they are all gone.

If the Palestinians have nowhere to go, applying pressure will be counter productive. It will just result in more Palestinian terrorists.
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Old 9th October 2023, 01:58 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Israel could win big points on the international stage, probably even salvage the Saudi Deal, if they proceed with utmost caution and with as much buy-in of Palestinians as possible - this could be the watershed moment to once and for all highlight the difference in respect for Life and Rule of Law of Israel vs. Hamas.

But that would be antithetical to the militant right-wingers in government.

You haven’t been paying attention. The entire democratic world is behind Israel right now because this attack has revealed to every sane person that Hamas’s goals have nothing to do with justice for Palestinians or anybody else; that instead, Hamas is a cult of sadistic, genocidal barbarians whose only goals are the extermination of Jews and the State of Israel.
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Old 9th October 2023, 02:03 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by jt512 View Post
You haven’t been paying attention. The entire democratic world is behind Israel right now because this attack has revealed to every sane person that Hamas’s goals have nothing to do with justice for Palestinians or anybody else; that instead, Hamas is a cult of sadistic, genocidal barbarians whose only goals are the extermination of Jews and the State of Israel.
the number of people who think that Hamas is right in miniscule. The criticism is generally not that Israel doesn't have the Right to fight back, but that because it has so many more resources, and because it claims to be a Western-style Democracy and Upholder of International Law, it is supposed to be way more careful in the use of Force than it actually is.

This is there perfect opportunity to not answer savagery with savagery, even if, or especially if most of the World will not start siding with Hamas when Israel starts bombing residential areas and shooting Palestinian kids. .
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Old 9th October 2023, 02:24 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
This is there perfect opportunity to not answer savagery with savagery.
Raping and killing innocent civilians is savagery. Taking children, helpless elderly people, whole families hostage is savagery. Fighting back is not savagery. It is self-defense; it is survival.

Quote:
even if, or especially if most of the World will not start siding with Hamas when Israel starts bombing residential areas and shooting Palestinian kids. .
How dare you imply that Israel targets civilians and children. How dare you!

The IDF is the only military I know of that warns its targets before it attacks and tells civilians to evacuate in an attempt to avoid civilian casualties. On the other hand, Hamas intentionally locates its forces among civilian populations in order to maximize civilian casualties that it can blame on the Israelis. The Israelis do everything they can to avoid civilian casualties, but there is only so much they can do when Hamas uses those civilians as human shields.
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Old 9th October 2023, 03:16 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Israel vows "mighty vengeance" - headline on ABC News Australia.
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
A good factual piece on how the attack unfolded:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67046750



Could we see the current Israeli government fall over such a massive failure of intelligence?
Possibly, but the problem is more general, the emphasis of ELINT and SIGINT over HUMINT. Comms silence is relatively easy to manage, as those countries favouring technological intelligence gathering have found.
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Old 9th October 2023, 03:36 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The head Ayatollah of Iran just announce dhis support of HAMAS.
More and more I am beginning to hink that Iran just cannot be trusted
Khamenei, since he came to power, has pretty much never even said the name Israel. He calls it "The Zionist Regime". That he supports Hamas isn't the least bit surprising.
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Old 9th October 2023, 03:42 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by jt512 View Post
Raping and killing innocent civilians is savagery. Taking children, helpless elderly people, whole families hostage is savagery. Fighting back is not savagery. It is self-defense; it is survival.



How dare you imply that Israel targets civilians and children. How dare you!

The IDF is the only military I know of that warns its targets before it attacks and tells civilians to evacuate in an attempt to avoid civilian casualties. On the other hand, Hamas intentionally locates its forces among civilian populations in order to maximize civilian casualties that it can blame on the Israelis. The Israelis do everything they can to avoid civilian casualties, but there is only so much they can do when Hamas uses those civilians as human shields.
how dare YOU say that it's alright if the IDF acts as savagely as Hamas.
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Old 9th October 2023, 03:47 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
I am told London Times says Iran is behind this.
This would be sharp departure from Iran's foreign policy for the past decades. Providing Hamas with funds, munitions, training, and equipment on the other hand...
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Old 9th October 2023, 03:57 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
the number of people who think that Hamas is right in miniscule. The criticism is generally not that Israel doesn't have the Right to fight back, but that because it has so many more resources, and because it claims to be a Western-style Democracy and Upholder of International Law, it is supposed to be way more careful in the use of Force than it actually is.

This is there perfect opportunity to not answer savagery with savagery, even if, or especially if most of the World will not start siding with Hamas when Israel starts bombing residential areas and shooting Palestinian kids. .
Which means,of course, that Israel basically does nothing.
If Hamas gets away iwht this, particualry the Hostage taking, we have entered anew era of barbarism. And, frankly, you often have to get a little ruthless in fighting Barbarians.
But you think Israel is not going to hit back, and hit very hard,you are living in fantasy land.
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Old 9th October 2023, 03:59 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
This would be sharp departure from Iran's foreign policy for the past decades. Providing Hamas with funds, munitions, training, and equipment on the other hand...
And now maybe we have reaches a point where we can no longer look the other way at Iran';s backing of Terrorism.
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Old 9th October 2023, 04:01 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Israel could win big points on the international stage, probably even salvage the Saudi Deal, if they proceed with utmost caution and with as much buy-in of Palestinians as possible - this could be the watershed moment to once and for all highlight the difference in respect for Life and Rule of Law of Israel vs. Hamas.

But that would be antithetical to the militant right-wingers in government.
Israel feels it's survival is at stake right now. It does not care about winning internatoinal points. And it knows how short liived support generally is, particularly from the Euro nations.
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Old 9th October 2023, 04:07 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Israel feels it's survival is at stake right now. It does not care about winning internatoinal points. And it knows how short liived support generally is, particularly from the Euro nations.
Rubbish - this was a guerilla style attack, even if attacks like these were happening every 3 months it wouldn't put Israel's survival at stake. Israel needs to maintain a strong military; it needs to protect itself from this style of attack, but it is not an existential threat to Israel. Hamas has no way to threaten the existence of Israel.
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Old 9th October 2023, 04:14 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Israel feels it's survival is at stake right now. It does not care about winning internatoinal points. And it knows how short liived support generally is, particularly from the Euro nations.
if anyone in Israel claims it's about survival they are, to be gracious, deluded.
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Old 9th October 2023, 04:18 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
if anyone in Israel claims it's about survival they are, to be gracious, deluded.
Not as delused as those who are tring to excuse HAMAS.
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Old 9th October 2023, 04:19 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Which means,of course, that Israel basically does nothing.
If Hamas gets away iwht this, particualry the Hostage taking, we have entered anew era of barbarism. And, frankly, you often have to get a little ruthless in fighting Barbarians.
But you think Israel is not going to hit back, and hit very hard,you are living in fantasy land.
no, it doesn't.

IDF, Mossad and co. can be smart and go after individuals, and be transparent about it.


But I fully agree that Israel is not going to do that, instead going for scorched earth - because everyone always buys the best locks for the barn after the horse has bolted.
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Old 9th October 2023, 04:19 AM   #119
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Not as delused as those who are tring to excuse HAMAS.
agreed
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Old 9th October 2023, 05:01 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Israel could win big points on the international stage, probably even salvage the Saudi Deal, if they proceed with utmost caution and with as much buy-in of Palestinians as possible - this could be the watershed moment to once and for all highlight the difference in respect for Life and Rule of Law of Israel vs. Hamas.

But that would be antithetical to the militant right-wingers in government.
And would also need Israel to commit to a peace plan based on an independent Palestine on the 1968 borders (the legitimate borders under international law). But that would be antithetical to any Israeli governmnet.
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