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Tags hamas , israel

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Old 9th October 2023, 04:44 PM   #281
dudalb
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Hatred of Israel has ,sadly, become dogma for the "Hard Left".
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Old 9th October 2023, 04:47 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Biden just annolunced it is "Probable" that US CItiznes are among the Hostages...whcih can be taken that there are US Hostages.
If A American Hostage is executed by HAMAS and it is televisend, they just go themselves a new enemy.
In fact, people from numerous countries have been killed, injured and abducted.

Link

Quote:
Global Affairs Canada, an agency of the Canadian government, has said it is aware of reports of one Canadian having been killed and two others missing.
Quote:
An official has told the BBC that more than 10 British citizens are feared dead or missing.

Nathanel Young, a British man serving in Israeli military, has been confirmed as having been killed. Two other British citizens - Jake Marlowe and Dan Darlington - are confirmed missing.

Mr Marlowe was providing security at the music festival in the south of the country. He has been reported missing.

Bernard Cowan, from Glasgow, has also been identified by family members on social media as having been killed in the attack.
Quote:
A French woman was killed and several others are missing, the French government said on Sunday.
Somewhat surprised by how many Thai and Nepali citizens were in the area, mostly working on farms or as care workers...

Quote:
Twelve Thais have been killed and another 11 kidnapped.

Another eight Thai nationals have been injured in the violence since Saturday, Thailand's foreign ministry said.

It said air force planes were on standby to fly its citizens home.

There are some 30,000 Thais in Israel working in agriculture, many near the Gaza border.
Quote:
Nepal said 10 of its citizens had been killed.

The country confirmed on Sunday that they were students who had gone to Israel to work and acquire skills in an agricultural firm.

An additional 265 Nepali students are also working on various farms, with another 4,500 Nepalis working as caregivers.
Quote:
German-Israeli woman Shani Louk is believed to have been taken from the Supernova festival, and it is not clear if she is alive.

"My daughter, Shani Nicole Luke, a German citizen, was kidnapped along with a group of tourists," said her mother Ricarda Louk, in a video following the incident.
Quote:
Cambodia
The country's Prime Minister, Hun Manet, has confirmed one student has been killed.
Quote:
A Beijing-born Chinese Israeli woman called Noa Argamani is among those taken from the Supernova festival, according to the Israeli Embassy in China.

The embassy has published a video of what it claims to be the abduction.
Video of her abduction has been widely shown with her on the back of a motorcycle. Link

Quote:
Brazil
Three people are missing and one injured.

The country's foreign ministry said on Sunday that three dual Brazilian-Israeli nationals were missing after attending the music festival and a fourth was being treated in hospital.
Quote:
Paraguay
The country's government said two of its nationals are missing, without giving further details. There are reports in its national media that a couple has been killed.
Quote:
Foreign Minister Alicia Barcena wrote on social media that two Mexicans have been taken hostage, but did not give further details.
Quote:
Kim Danti, a 22-year-old Irish-Israeli woman, is unaccounted for.

RTÉ, the country's national broadcaster, reports that she was last seen at the music festival. Taoiseach Leo Varadkar said the Irish Embassy in the country was dealing with it.
Quote:
Tanzania's embassy in Israel is trying to trace two Tanzanian students who were on a business studies internship.
So, not only was this a ruthless attack on Israel, which was shocking and brutal, but Hamas will have pissed off most of the world with this.
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Old 9th October 2023, 04:47 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
*snip*
REMOVE ALL SETTLERS from the rest of the West Bank. If they refuse, make them Palestinian citizens, subject to Palestinian law.
The vast majority of Israeli residents of Judea&Samaria are suburbanites living in nice, manicured, tract housing and apartments in and around Jerusalem city, and in some well-established 'bedroom communities' (like Ariel). The idea that Ma'ale Adumim, Alfe Menashe, or Modi'in Illit should be dismantled and the Jews therein forcibly removed, is not realistic. At all.
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Old 9th October 2023, 04:57 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
The vast majority of Israeli residents of Judea&Samaria are suburbanites living in nice, manicured, tract housing and apartments in and around Jerusalem city, and in some well-established 'bedroom communities' (like Ariel). The idea that Ma'ale Adumim, Alfe Menashe, or Modi'in Illit should be dismantled and the Jews therein forcibly removed, is not realistic. At all.
Ariel - I couldn't remember the name of that one. I already excepted East Jerusalem. I was meaning that in reference to those communities in and around Jerusalem.

**** the rest. Really. I don't care how nice they are, they never should have been settled and built. The existence of settlements in the West Bank will eventually result in the end of Israel as a Jewish majority nation unless the citizens are either removed back to Israel or are forced to live under Palestinian law.
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Old 9th October 2023, 05:23 PM   #285
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NYTimes is sharing this chart which visualizes the lopsided nature of the deaths in this conflict over time. Presumably Palestinian deaths will rapidly outpace Israeli deaths that occurred during the weekend raids over the border, but it helps explain why Israel was so shaken by the attacks. Generally speaking, Israel does the lion's share of the killing and is not used to being on the losing side of things.


https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/10...#sderot-israel

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Old 9th October 2023, 05:29 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
"bombing an apartment block"? For someone asking me to "quantify" anything you put forth an example that is so utterly vague as to be worthless. "bombing an apartment block" could mean just about anything.
I didn't think I needed to spell it out to you like a child. They blow up apartment blocks that are frequently occupied by noncombatants. They are doing so as we speak. They are intentionally killing civilians. The leaders of the Israeli state are gloating about it. They end up no less dead than those shot with a rifle.

PM Benjamin Netanyahu is bragging on his Twitter account with a video of a residential neighborhood in Gaza being bombed and an apartment tower collapsing. Does this not offend your sensibilities as much as seeing dead festival attendees simply because you do not see the bodies? Surely you understand what it means to bomb residential buildings, even if the gore is not presented to you directly.

https://twitter.com/netanyahu/status...01659190886556
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Old 9th October 2023, 05:59 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost View Post
NYTimes is sharing this chart which visualizes the lopsided nature of the deaths in this conflict over time. Presumably Palestinian deaths will rapidly outpace Israeli deaths that occurred during the weekend raids over the border, but it helps explain why Israel was so shaken by the attacks. Generally speaking, Israel does the lion's share of the killing and is not used to being on the losing side of things.


https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/10...#sderot-israel

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...499866d791.png
How these deaths came about and what methods used doesn't come into your calculations does it?
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Old 9th October 2023, 06:02 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by Manger Douse View Post
How these deaths came about and what methods used doesn't come into your calculations does it?
Women and Children being kidnapped also does not come in his calcualtion.]
But ti's all for the glorious revolution.
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Old 9th October 2023, 06:03 PM   #289
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When the first videos of Hostages being executed are aired, a lot of these people making apologies for HAMAS are going to be shocked at just how unpopular they are going to be.
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Old 9th October 2023, 06:04 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost View Post
NYTimes is sharing this chart which visualizes the lopsided nature of the deaths in this conflict over time.

The problem is that relative military power skews the results.

Hamas is doing exactly what it's always said it wants to do to Israeli civilians, it just lacked the military capacity to do so. If they had sufficient military power to do so they would literally seek kill every single Israeli, civilians, men, women children, all of them.

Israel, by comparison has significant military power but general doesn't target civilians at all. While they don't target civilians they do little or nothing to avoid civilian collateral damage. The difference is that they have much more firepower, and that means more civilian casualties.

There is no moral comparison between the sides, Hamas is much much much worse and always will be, regardless of the civilian body count. If the relative military power were revered there would be millions of dead Israeli civilians and few dead Palestinian civilians.

We can hate Israels disregard for collateral civilian deaths but make no mistake they are still the only side any civilized country should be supporting.
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Old 9th October 2023, 06:09 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Ariel - I couldn't remember the name of that one. I already excepted East Jerusalem. I was meaning that in reference to those communities in and around Jerusalem.

**** the rest. Really. I don't care how nice they are, they never should have been settled and built. The existence of settlements in the West Bank will eventually result in the end of Israel as a Jewish majority nation unless the citizens are either removed back to Israel or are forced to live under Palestinian law.
Palestinian leaders of all stripes have said they want ZERO Jews in their future State.
When you hear the chants of "From the River to the Sea" the implication is that entire area will be an exclusively Arab Palestine State, and the Jews therein be damned.
By the way, how many Jews are citizens of Jordan? (A little feudal monarchy to our east that provides the death penalty to anyone selling land to a Jew).

I am not taking your suggestions seriously, simply because your comment about "**** the rest" is obnoxious, especially as we're currently at war with people who expressly say "**** 'em all" and want to execute that exact plan.

According to some personal sources of mine in Israel, the IDF is poised to enter Gaza within the next 24 hours. The ground forces will be composed of paratroopers landing by parachute and on board Yasur transport choppers; a naval contingent (including commandos); and an armored infantry push.
The objective will be to literally clear out entire sectors of the strip, depopulating and squeezing everyone down towards Rafiah and the Egyptian border, and possibly removing the border barrier at that zone (with or without Egyptian agreement) so that northern Sinai becomes reunited with Gaza, reversing the division of Rafiah that occurred in 1982.

P.S. - The Jerusalem Post news website is still offline, having been crashed with a cyber attack.
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Old 9th October 2023, 06:15 PM   #292
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And the conspiracies theories are going full balst. see the treread I started in COnspiracies for details.
A lot of , I swear, is recycled 9/11 Truther crap, like all the footage of Hamas taking Hostages has been faked.
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Old 9th October 2023, 06:26 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
Palestinian leaders of all stripes have said they want ZERO Jews in their future State.
That's true. But...

There are also Israeli leaders of all stripes who have said that they want zero Palestinians in "Judea and Samaria": Israeli lawmaker wishes to ‘press button’ and expel Palestinians. Could Israel Carry Out Another Nakba?

Pox on all of them, seriously. Neither side wants peace. You are all just going to keep killing each other forever and refusing to take real steps to reach a compromise solution. Israel has the better human rights record and better civil rights for its citizens. Israel will never commit terrorism even remotely similar to the soul-killing brutality that Hamas is currently implementing. But Israel also keeps implementing policies that close more and more doors to a long term stability.

Eventually the two state solution will become irrevocably impractical due to the number of Israeli settlements in the West Bank, the apartheid will become ever more apparent. And ever more politically unpopular on the world stage. And when that apartheid ends, it will be with Jews and Muslims living together in a united country - a one state solution. Of which Jewish people will not be the majority population.

Unless Israel acts soon to get the hell out of the West Bank to secure the potential for a Palestinian state. We know that Israel won't do that, even though it dooms itself through that refusal.

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Old 9th October 2023, 06:42 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
When the first videos of Hostages being executed are aired, a lot of these people making apologies for HAMAS are going to be shocked at just how unpopular they are going to be.
Again, I think you seriously underestimate how hated Israel and Jews are around the world. Hamas apologists aren't going to be unpopular- they're going to posture themselves as revolutionary heroes and be treated as such by the world that matters to them.
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Old 9th October 2023, 07:25 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Eventually the two state solution will become irrevocably impractical due to the number of Israeli settlements in the West Bank, the apartheid will become ever more apparent. And ever more politically unpopular on the world stage.
This war has nothing to do with settlers. There are no Israeli settlers in Gaza, they were all withdrawn in 2005. Hamas is based in Gaza, not the West Bank. They didn't attack because of what's happening there.
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Old 9th October 2023, 07:42 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
This war has nothing to do with settlers. There are no Israeli settlers in Gaza, they were all withdrawn in 2005. Hamas is based in Gaza, not the West Bank. They didn't attack because of what's happening there.
I am aware that settlers were removed. Discussion of settlers in West Bank made it very clear that I was discussing the West Bank as a potential model for Palestinian governance in both West Bank and Gaza that did not include Hamas, the viability of the two-state solution, and what happens if the two state solution becomes irretrievably infeasible.

Even if you get rid of Hamas entirely, Gaza will still be there. Who will run it? What is the alternative to Hamas? Is grovelling subservience to Israel the only possible alternative?
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Old 9th October 2023, 08:15 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
I am aware that settlers were removed. Discussion of settlers in West Bank made it very clear that I was discussing the West Bank as a potential model for Palestinian governance in both West Bank and Gaza that did not include Hamas, the viability of the two-state solution, and what happens if the two state solution becomes irretrievably infeasible.
You tried to blame the current violence on settlers. There may be other arguments against them, but this one is wrong. And this thread isn't about Israeli/Palestinian issues in general, it's specifically about the current violence.

Quote:
Even if you get rid of Hamas entirely, Gaza will still be there. Who will run it? What is the alternative to Hamas? Is grovelling subservience to Israel the only possible alternative?
Do you really think terrorism is the only alternative to "groveling subservience"? Damn, that's racist.
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Old 9th October 2023, 08:40 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Even if you get rid of Hamas entirely, Gaza will still be there. Who will run it? What is the alternative to Hamas? Is grovelling subservience to Israel the only possible alternative?
Like in Iran, it might be that a plurality or most Gazans would like to be rid of Hamas but are scared to openly say so. Eradicating Hamas seems a necessity before the lives of Gazans can improve.

New Poll Shows Gazans Pragmatic Now, But Not Long-Term

Quote:
For instance, while the plurality of Gazans (44%) blame Israel for their economic woes, the presence of Israeli companies in Gaza and the West Bank is becoming more popular. Now, 31% “definitely” support and 35% would “probably” like to see more Israeli companies in the Palestinian territories, a thirteen-point increase since February 2020.
Quote:
Also notable is that Gazans continue to express disapproval of Hamas’ policies towards Israel. About half (53%) agree at least somewhat that “Hamas should stop calling for Israel’s destruction, and instead accept a permanent two-state solution based on the 1967 borders,” a percentage that has held steady over the last three years. 59% of Gazans also agree that Hamas should give up its armed units in favor of PA officers in Gaza. Likewise, nearly two-thirds of Gazans would agree at least somewhat with the need for Hamas to preserve the cease-fire in both Gaza and the West Bank.
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Old 9th October 2023, 08:45 PM   #299
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Why is the bar for Israel that it only needs to be somewhat less savage than HAMAS to be above reproach?

And why is it impossible to criticize Israel without being accused of supporting HAMAS?


I think we can think bigger than just "your team my team" here - and we have to if we want actual solutions.
What Israel is currently doing is making sure that the same attacks will happen in 10 years
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Old 9th October 2023, 08:53 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Why is the bar for Israel that it only needs to be somewhat less savage than HAMAS to be above reproach?

And why is it impossible to criticize Israel without being accused of supporting HAMAS?


I think we can think bigger than just "your team my team" here - and we have to if we want actual solutions.
What Israel is currently doing is making sure that the same attacks will happen in 10 years
Criticize Israel all you like. But when your cause is shooting up people at a concert, killing children in their homes, and raping/kidnapping women, your cause is crap.

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Old 9th October 2023, 08:54 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Why is the bar for Israel that it only needs to be somewhat less savage than HAMAS to be above reproach?

And why is it impossible to criticize Israel without being accused of supporting HAMAS?


I think we can think bigger than just "your team my team" here - and we have to if we want actual solutions.
What Israel is currently doing is making sure that the same attacks will happen in 10 years
What makes you think it's going to take 10 years?
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Old 9th October 2023, 09:08 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
What makes you think it's going to take 10 years?
law of wars - you need to grow a new crop of fighters.


But Hamas has already won by causing a bigger blow to Israel than the Arab armies in the 5-day war managed to do. Their place in history is assured.
The only question now is how many more people they will be able to recruit because of IDF brutality in its retaliation.

This is not a war, and Israel claiming that it is is just elevating HAMASs profile.
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Old 9th October 2023, 09:20 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You tried to blame the current violence on settlers. There may be other arguments against them, but this one is wrong. And this thread isn't about Israeli/Palestinian issues in general, it's specifically about the current violence.



Do you really think terrorism is the only alternative to "groveling subservience"? Damn, that's racist.

This directly relates to the current violence because Hamas is causing it. Get rid of Hamas, the violence might end. Getting rid of Hamas might be problematic if there is no plan for what comes next.

I feel like I have been clear that the current violence is caused by Hamas. The settlers don't help and try to make things worse - but they clearly are not the ones murdering people at music festivals and kibbutzes.

The idea is that to prevent an attempt to repeat the current violence it is necessary to get Hamas out of Gaza and replace it with something.

That something could be a thing entirely propped up by Israel - a groveling subservient Vichy. But that would never be accepted by Palestinians in Gaza. It would be inherently unstable.

Or, it could be a third path acceptable to Palestinians. But Palestinians will not accept a third path if it doesn't have the ability to actually have enough real functionality to be real to them. The model for that could be the PA in West Bank if West Bank had enough freedom and contiguity to be one part of one of the states in a two state solution (the other part eventually being Gaza).

But if the PA can never be more than the ruler of a Bantustan in an apartheid state, a Bantustan that keeps getting whittled away at bit by bit, then they can never be a model for better governance and survival of Gaza.

To get rid of Hamas they need an alternative. A good alternative. Israel can help set that up, starting with West Bank, showing that it can work, and then letting it export itself to Gaza.

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Old 9th October 2023, 09:55 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
law of wars - you need to grow a new crop of fighters.
Seems to me they have plenty of "fighters" right now.

Quote:
But Hamas has already won by causing a bigger blow to Israel than the Arab armies in the 5-day war managed to do. Their place in history is assured.
Agreed. They have covered themselves in terroristic glory.

Quote:
The only question now is how many more people they will be able to recruit because of IDF brutality in its retaliation.
Are you kidding? Their main problem will be turning volunteers away.

Quote:
This is not a war, and Israel claiming that it is is just elevating HAMASs profile.
Seems like a war to me. What element of war is missing?
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Old 9th October 2023, 10:03 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Seems to me they have plenty of "fighters" right now.


Agreed. They have covered themselves in terroristic glory.


Are you kidding? Their main problem will be turning volunteers away.


Seems like a war to me. What element of war is missing?
Territorial gains and losses
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Old 9th October 2023, 10:21 PM   #306
dudalb
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
law of wars - you need to grow a new crop of fighters.


But Hamas has already won by causing a bigger blow to Israel than the Arab armies in the 5-day war managed to do. Their place in history is assured.
The only question now is how many more people they will be able to recruit because of IDF brutality in its retaliation.

This is not a war, and Israel claiming that it is is just elevating HAMASs profile.

You win the silliest statement of the week award.
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Old 9th October 2023, 10:23 PM   #307
dudalb
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Territorial gains and losses
BS, You can have war without those.
I hate people who have "Personal definitions".
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Old 9th October 2023, 10:37 PM   #308
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
You win the silliest statement of the week award.
you have learned nothing from the War on Terror, have you ?
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Old 9th October 2023, 10:55 PM   #309
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
BS, You can have war without those.
I hate people who have "Personal definitions".
example?

Hamas isn't even the legitimate leadership of Gaza, and Israel hasn't declared War ion Gaza, but on Hamas.
this is as much a war as the War on Drugs is.

Seems to me YOU are going with very personal definitions here.
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Old 9th October 2023, 11:04 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Hamas isn't even the legitimate leadership of Gaza
"Legitimacy" isn't relevant here. Hamas is the actual leader of Gaza.

Quote:
and Israel hasn't declared War ion Gaza, but on Hamas.
this is as much a war as the War on Drugs is.
You can't kill drugs. You can kill Hamas. Not even remotely similar.
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Old 9th October 2023, 11:26 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Biden just annolunced it is "Probable" that US CItiznes are among the Hostages...whcih can be taken that there are US Hostages.
If A American Hostage is executed by HAMAS and it is televisend, they just go themselves a new enemy.
New? The US are already an enemy of Hamas. The US supplies weapons and money to help oppress and kill Palestinians.

When Hamas were elected as the government of Gaza, the US and Israel refused to deal with the elected government. You can not be a true supporter of democracy if you support it until you disagree with the outcome. Hamas are both de facto and the government in Gaza and the elected government.

As the Good Friday agreement showed if you want peace it means being prepared to deal with enemies and terrorists. Excluding Hamas is not a realistic way to make peace.
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Old 9th October 2023, 11:35 PM   #312
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
"Legitimacy" isn't relevant here. Hamas is the actual leader of Gaza.



You can't kill drugs. You can kill Hamas. Not even remotely similar.

can you kill Hamas?
What % would you need to kill before you succeed?
And what about the next organization just like it with a new name?

It takes a big stretch of definitions to call this a war.

Also: how many hostages do you think will survive if Israel decides to kill every member of Hamas?
Would Israel be "winning" if they all get executed ?

This is more complicated than just "good guys on this side, bad guys on that side, now FIGHT!"
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Old 9th October 2023, 11:45 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
This directly relates to the current violence because Hamas is causing it. Get rid of Hamas, the violence might end. Getting rid of Hamas might be problematic if there is no plan for what comes next.

I feel like I have been clear that the current violence is caused by Hamas. The settlers don't help and try to make things worse - but they clearly are not the ones murdering people at music festivals and kibbutzes.

The idea is that to prevent an attempt to repeat the current violence it is necessary to get Hamas out of Gaza and replace it with something.

That something could be a thing entirely propped up by Israel - a groveling subservient Vichy. But that would never be accepted by Palestinians in Gaza. It would be inherently unstable.

Or, it could be a third path acceptable to Palestinians. But Palestinians will not accept a third path if it doesn't have the ability to actually have enough real functionality to be real to them. The model for that could be the PA in West Bank if West Bank had enough freedom and contiguity to be one part of one of the states in a two state solution (the other part eventually being Gaza).

But if the PA can never be more than the ruler of a Bantustan in an apartheid state, a Bantustan that keeps getting whittled away at bit by bit, then they can never be a model for better governance and survival of Gaza.

To get rid of Hamas they need an alternative. A good alternative. Israel can help set that up, starting with West Bank, showing that it can work, and then letting it export itself to Gaza.
How familiar are you with the extent of settler violence against Palestinians in the occupied territories. The continual war crimes day after day, year after year, that the Palestinians are subject to.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-sp...ian-terrorism/
Shin Bet describe the actions of the settlers as Jewish terrorism and that it will drive more Palestinians to extremism.

https://www.btselem.org/publications...eady_happening

https://www.972mag.com/area-c-ethnic...tler-violence/

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/d...ool-demolition
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Old 10th October 2023, 12:22 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
can you kill Hamas?
Possibly. But I don't think it's worth trying.

Quote:
It takes a big stretch of definitions to call this a war.
It's a war. Sometimes it's hot, sometimes cold, but it's a war.


Quote:
Also: how many hostages do you think will survive if Israel decides to kill every member of Hamas?
How many do you think will survive no matter what Israel decides?

Quote:
Would Israel be "winning" if they all get executed ?
No, she wouldn't, because Israel actually cares about its people. Hamas couldn't care less if Israel executes all of their prisoners in retaliation, because they have no particular concern for their people beyond simple utility.

Quote:
This is more complicated than just "good guys on this side, bad guys on that side, now FIGHT!
Is there anyone here who didn't already know that?
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Old 10th October 2023, 12:33 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Biden just annolunced it is "Probable" that US CItiznes are among the Hostages...whcih can be taken that there are US Hostages.
If A American Hostage is executed by HAMAS and it is televisend, they just go themselves a new enemy.
Remind me what happens when Israel kills a US journalist?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiree...enin%20Refugee

Or eighty year olds.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/...ly-with-israel

Or student.
https://www.history.com/this-day-in-...rael-bulldozer
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Old 10th October 2023, 04:18 AM   #316
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To drag this somewhat back to thread topic,

Israel has promised a ground invasion of Gaza as a response, and all available indicators are that they are massing troops for exactly that purpose.

Invading heavily built up urban environments is a tactical nightmare and it's almost always a high casualty campaign for the attackers. Presumably Hamas would have anticipated such a move and has made arrangements to make an invasion an incredibly costly for the IDF. You have to assume lots of IED attacks and ambushes, brutal block by block, building to building, or even room to room firefights. That's not to say there's much doubt that the IDF can take and hold territory in Gaza, but it will be extremely costly for them to do so.

Even leveling buildings does little to improve the situation for the attackers. Bombing out apartment buildings is a good way to engage in collective punishment against the civilian population of Gaza, but ruins function just as well, if not better, as cover and concealment for defenders.

Putting IDF troops on the ground will also result in more visually unpleasant atrocities. Israel leveling buildings and killing civilians seems more aloof than videos of IDF soldiers machine gunning down civilians in a cross fire, which will almost certainly happen in such a densely settled place, and there's a very good chance there's an outright massacre from IDF soldiers. Real risk of morale and discipline issues from IDF soldiers, and if the rhetoric from leadership is any guide, rules of engagement are basically going to be nonexistent. It's the perfect conditions for a little bit of revenge killing that will almost certainly be captured on someone's smartphone and broadcast to the world.

The Vietnamese had an adage for dealing with the overwhelming firepower of the American invaders, which was "grab them by the belt" to fight them. That is, close quarters infantry tactics that make it harder for overwhelmingly artillery and air superiority to be deployed without incurring friendly fire. Driving APCs into Gaza seems like giving Hamas militias exactly the kind of combat situations that will help negate the comparative advantages of the Israeli war machine.
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Old 10th October 2023, 04:30 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
can you kill Hamas?
It is difficult, but it's absolutely possible.

Quote:
This is more complicated than just "good guys on this side, bad guys on that side, now FIGHT!"
Who said war had to be simple? Complexity doesn't make war into not war. That has never been a criterion.
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Old 10th October 2023, 04:39 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It is difficult, but it's absolutely possible.

...snip...
how?
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Old 10th October 2023, 05:19 AM   #319
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Luckily, the USS Gerald R. Ford is on its way to help with fighting in densely populated areas.
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Old 10th October 2023, 05:26 AM   #320
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In flux, hard to keep track of events as they occur, media reports are difficult to evaluate as the situation keeps evolving and this morning's news has been superceded by this afternoon's news.

I posted a few pages back about the 'squeeze' happening in Gaza as the population is being encouraged/forced to vacate entire areas. Yesterday, the IDF recommended that Palestinians head towards the Egyptian border crossing at Rafiah and go into N.Sinai.
However, today, the Egyptian infrastructure at that crossing no longer exists. IAF took aim and demolished the gate. What remains is a gaping hole.
https://www.reuters.com/world/israel...pt-2023-10-10/

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