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Tags accusations , politician , transgender

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Old 9th February 2024, 02:41 PM   #1
Ranb
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Utah Official Falsely Claims Student is Transgender

Utah official falsely suggests teen student is transgender, now faces calls to resign
https://abcnews.go.com/US/utah-schoo...y?id=107100300
Quote:
Utah Gov. Spencer Cox and other local leaders are calling for the resignation of Utah state school board member Natalie Cline after she falsely suggested a girl playing on a high school basketball team was transgender in a now-deleted Facebook post.

The girl quickly became the target of threats and harassment online, with the girl's family speaking out about the incident in an interview with Salt Lake City ABC affiliate KTVX.

Cline apologized for the mistake on Facebook, saying that the girl has a larger physical build, causing her to speculate about her gender. Cline had posted a now-deleted photo of the high school basketball player with the caption: "Girls’ basketball" according to The Salt Lake Tribune.
She claimed, “We live in strange times when it is normal to pause and wonder if people are what they say they are because of the push to normalize transgenderism in our society,” Cline said on Facebook."

Why doesn't she just say, "I'm an *******" instead?

Ranb
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Old 9th February 2024, 02:45 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Utah official falsely suggests teen student is transgender, now faces calls to resign
https://abcnews.go.com/US/utah-schoo...y?id=107100300


She claimed, “We live in strange times when it is normal to pause and wonder if people are what they say they are because of the push to normalize transgenderism in our society,” Cline said on Facebook."

Why doesn't she just say, "I'm an *******" instead?

Ranb
She definitely seems to be a miserable ****. The worst part is the child has to be under police surveillance because that dumb ass bitch couldn't keep her mouth shut. I read the article on lunch but I didn't catch to see if the dumb bitch even had a kid playing in the event.

This will happen more, and more. This could probably go in the other transgender thread(s) though.
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Old 9th February 2024, 03:58 PM   #3
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Ironic that she's speculating about the girl's gender, when that seems to be the clearer bit.

And while I think she jumped the gun in this particular case, I also think she does have a point, and it's going to become a much bigger issue over the next few years.
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Old 9th February 2024, 04:14 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Ironic that she's speculating about the girl's gender, when that seems to be the clearer bit.

And while I think she jumped the gun in this particular case, I also think she does have a point, and it's going to become a much bigger issue over the next few years.
Is her point that the issue is going to be, prejudiced people like her going out of their way to recklessly make false accusations to bring attention to themselves?
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Old 9th February 2024, 04:16 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Is her point that the issue is going to be, prejudiced people like her going out of their way to recklessly make false accusations to bring attention to themselves?
No.
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Old 9th February 2024, 08:05 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Is her point that the issue is going to be, prejudiced people like her going out of their way to recklessly make false accusations to bring attention to themselves?
'Transvestigators' have been harassing many women they claim must be transgender women for a few years now. Athletes are one of the more popular categories to attack. A rugby player was accused recently too, and she's also cis. Michelle Obama, Anne Hathaway, Henry Cavil, Daniel Radcliffe's girlfriend Erin Darke who was pregnant at the time, the list goes on and on.

People so accused are often then relentlessly harassed. The parents here were right to be concerned about suicide because that's happened several times.

Of note, Utah's legislature overcame a governor's veto for a law barring transgender student athletes, which was then put on hold by a judge's ruling.

EDIT: Concerns over transgender athletes have lead to testosterone limits in women's sports, barring some cisgender women from sports, you know, just to be sure?
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Last edited by tyr_13; 9th February 2024 at 08:08 PM.
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Old 9th February 2024, 08:22 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
She definitely seems to be a miserable ****.
She definitely is. Natalie Cline is absolutely notorious in my city. She's done crap like this many times before, but since she's elected, she can't be fired; only impeached.
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Old 9th February 2024, 09:59 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Ironic that she's speculating about the girl's gender, when that seems to be the clearer bit.

And while I think she jumped the gun in this particular case, I also think she does have a point, and it's going to become a much bigger issue over the next few years.
A point? Jumped the gun? So she should have demanded a genital check first, maybe? Checked if the girl is pink enough in all the right places? Sure it''s going to become a much bigger issue because idiots like her are ignorant and stupid and think it's their business.
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Old 9th February 2024, 10:22 PM   #9
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She used a young girl's life and identity for her own ******** political games.

She's a worm.
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Old 9th February 2024, 10:45 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
She used a young girl's life and identity for her own ******** political games.

She's a worm.
Well, you say "she", but how do we know? I accuse Goodwife Cline of being a witch! I mean, a man! "She" should prove "her"self female to the public's satisfaction!
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Old 10th February 2024, 04:23 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Utah official falsely suggests teen student is transgender, now faces calls to resign
https://abcnews.go.com/US/utah-schoo...y?id=107100300


She claimed, “We live in strange times when it is normal to pause and wonder if people are what they say they are because of the push to normalize transgenderism in our society,” Cline said on Facebook."

Why doesn't she just say, "I'm an *******" instead?

Ranb
Anyway why should she care the child is trans. If she's transphobic (likely given her probable religion's fetish for all forms of homophobia) that's her problem not the student's.
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Old 10th February 2024, 05:39 AM   #12
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And the Mormon church wonders why it’s bleeding young membership.
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Old 10th February 2024, 08:51 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
'Transvestigators' have been harassing many women they claim must be transgender women for a few years now. Athletes are one of the more popular categories to attack. A rugby player was accused recently too, and she's also cis. Michelle Obama, Anne Hathaway, Henry Cavil, Daniel Radcliffe's girlfriend Erin Darke who was pregnant at the time, the list goes on and on.

People so accused are often then relentlessly harassed. The parents here were right to be concerned about suicide because that's happened several times.

Of note, Utah's legislature overcame a governor's veto for a law barring transgender student athletes, which was then put on hold by a judge's ruling.

EDIT: Concerns over transgender athletes have lead to testosterone limits in women's sports, barring some cisgender women from sports, you know, just to be sure?
Henry Cavil isn't a woman?!



Also... Anne Hathaway?! She's into "10" territory IMO.
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Old 10th February 2024, 09:11 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle View Post
Anyway why should she care the child is trans. If she's transphobic (likely given her probable religion's fetish for all forms of homophobia) that's her problem not the student's.
The anti-trans laws in Utah are nominally motivated by a fear that students assigned male gender at birth are unfairly competing as girls and are presumed therefore to have an advantage. The state established its School Activity Eligibility Commission to regulate participation in school sports on grounds that include biologically-evident gender and any gender-affirming care in progress (e.g., duration of hormone replacement therapy). The confidentiality of students is supposed to be maintained throughout this process.

Recently in Utah there have been public incidents and altercations from spectators and parents accusing student athletes of being trans, usually in such circumstances as at the games themselves. This is a socially acute issue in our state.

Natalie Cline is a member of the relevant school board, but not of the commission. Here is a our local reporting on Cline.
https://www.internationalskeptics.co...ply&p=14256610 . Since I believe there is a sign-up wall (although not necessarily a paywall), here is representative excerpt :—
Originally Posted by Salt Lake Tribune
Cline also said she was running for the state school board to protect the “natural family,” which she defines as a mother and father — not an LGBTQ+ partnership. Her main platform on her campaign website at the time was defending parental rights in education and “protecting the innocence of children.”

Her website stated: “Teachers must remember that they are accountable to parents, not the other way around, and parents are ultimately accountable to God.”

Cline’s bio for the GOP convention noted, too, that she has lobbied for Family Watch International. That organization is identified as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center for promoting “anti-LGBT pseudoscience.”
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Old 10th February 2024, 09:20 AM   #15
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So basically we're in a world where the people who mind their own business are the sinners and the people who want to pull down their pants and check their vaginas are the pure and holy.
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Old 10th February 2024, 09:28 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Ironic that she's speculating about the girl's gender, when that seems to be the clearer bit.
How a person presents is their business, regardless of how else their gender might be reckoned. Natalie Cline's uninformed option of the person's biologically-suggested gender is irrelevant, and her speculation on that point in public from a position of elected authority is improper.

Quote:
And while I think she jumped the gun in this particular case, I also think she does have a point, and it's going to become a much bigger issue over the next few years.
The issue is currently handled in Utah by a state-appointed commission established by law. This commission has the mandate to examine—confidentially, if requested—a student's eligibility for participation in school sports, including compliance with our state's law governing transgender athletes. A student's membership in a school-sponsored sports team is de facto evidence that the commission has already determined their eligibility to the extent required.

Natalie Cline is a member of the school board, but her authority does not include challenging or superseding the state's authority to determine the eligibility of athletes. Her public position and notoriety, however, amplify the effect of her inappropriate and unauthorized actions and statements.
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Old 10th February 2024, 09:35 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
So basically we're in a world where the people who mind their own business are the sinners and the people who want to pull down their pants and check their vaginas are the pure and holy.
You could say that. Utah has just recently passed a "bathroom bill" requiring people to use the segregated public restroom corresponding to their gender assigned at birth. This has given rise to comments to the effects of the "pee-pee police" or "potty police."

This has been deeply hurtful to our state's transgender community. It is offensive to me personally as well, as I have about half a dozen transgender friends and one transgender employee. Sponsors of the bill were not able to supply a single iota of evidence of any incident of assault, abuse, or misbehavior that would justify the bill. It is a non-problem. However, the bill was postured as a "preventative" measure, ostensibly because some people felt uncomfortable.
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Old 10th February 2024, 09:40 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
A point? Jumped the gun? So she should have demanded a genital check first, maybe? Checked if the girl is pink enough in all the right places?
No.

Quote:
Sure it''s going to become a much bigger issue because idiots like her are ignorant and stupid and think it's their business.
Transcending sex segregation through fiat self-ID is a public policy issue that is everyone's business. As this becomes more commonplace, questions about a particular athlete's sex and thus standing to compete as a female are going to become more common as well, and more important. But this budding sociological fiasco is in its early days yet, and circumspection would have served this person better than ill-informed speculation.
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Old 10th February 2024, 09:48 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
You could say that. Utah has just recently passed a "bathroom bill" requiring people to use the segregated public restroom corresponding to their gender assigned at birth.
Gender is not assigned at birth, not by hospitals anyways. Sex is observed at birth.
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Old 10th February 2024, 09:50 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Transcending sex segregation through fiat self-ID is a public policy issue that is everyone's business.
Straw man. Not all transgender issues are simply a matter of self-identification. Not all issues that one might say are "everyone's business" place equal weight on every person's opinion.

Quote:
As this becomes more commonplace, questions about a particular athlete's sex and thus standing to compete as a female are going to become more common as well, and more important.
Utah has laws and enforcement mechanisms in place to address this. Natalie Cline did not respect that, and instead decided to take matters into her own hands under color of her office.

Quote:
But this budding sociological fiasco is in its early days yet, and circumspection would have served this person better than ill-informed speculation.
Weasel words. Do you think it is proper for an elected member of the school board to publicly question an athlete's gender based solely on her uninformed judgment, and in defiance of the state's prior determination of eligibility?

This issue is already causing incidents of violence in my state.
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Old 10th February 2024, 10:01 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Straw man. Not all transgender issues are simply a matter of self-identification. Not all issues that one might say are "everyone's business" place equal weight on every person's opinion.
I am rejecting the claim that an athlete's sex is nobody else's business.

And I am hard pressed to think of a transgender issue in public policy that isn't about self-identification. Certainly the issue of transcending sex segregation in sports by fiat self-ID isn't an issue of medical diagnosis or a prescription of social transition as medical treatment.

Quote:
Utah has laws and enforcement mechanisms in place to address this. Natalie Cline did not respect that, and instead decided to take matters into her own hands under color of her office.
Agreed.

Quote:
Weasel words.
Not intended as such.

Quote:
Do you think it is proper for an elected member of the school board to publicly question an athlete's gender based solely on her uninformed judgment, and in defiance of the state's prior determination of eligibility?
No.

Quote:
This issue is already causing incidents of violence in my state.
Yes, and it's going to get worse before it gets better. Fiat self-ID is a terrible basis for public policy. It's bad for women. It's bad for homosexuals. It's bad for people who actually suffer from gender dysphoria and need medical diagnosis and treatment. The violence is abhorrent, but pretending fiat self-ID is okay isn't the solution.
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Old 10th February 2024, 10:15 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Certainly the issue of transcending sex segregation in sports by fiat self-ID isn't an issue of medical diagnosis or a prescription of social transition as medical treatment.
Utah's laws governing transgender participation in sports cover the issues of self-identification, social transition, and medical transition. I have some issues with those laws, but I see in them an attempt to discuss gender in a more nuanced way. Not all transgender students have been approved to participate as they desire; to my knowledge, four students have been denied.

Quote:
Agreed.
I'm pleased that while we may disagree on some issues, we seem to agree that Ms Cline's behavior was inappropriate. For me, that's the important take-away in this thread.

Quote:
Fiat self-ID is a terrible basis for public policy. It's bad for women. It's bad for homosexuals. It's bad for people who actually suffer from gender dysphoria and need medical diagnosis and treatment. The violence is abhorrent, but pretending fiat self-ID is okay isn't the solution.
I feel I could debate these points, but the point I want to make is that while Ms Cline's actions are clearly inappropriate, she was elected by a majority of her district, many of whom are cheering her on even as we speak. Is that a better solution?
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Old 10th February 2024, 10:53 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
So basically we're in a world where the people who mind their own business are the sinners and the people who want to pull down their pants and check their vaginas are the pure and holy.
Religious zealots have ever been thus.
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Old 10th February 2024, 11:08 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
No.


Transcending sex segregation through fiat self-ID is a public policy issue that is everyone's business. As this becomes more commonplace, questions about a particular athlete's sex and thus standing to compete as a female are going to become more common as well, and more important. But this budding sociological fiasco is in its early days yet, and circumspection would have served this person better than ill-informed speculation.
But ill informed speculation is the norm here. It's a fancy way of saying idiocy would not occur if only people weren't idiots.
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Old 10th February 2024, 11:10 AM   #25
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it's simple misogyny. If someone doesn't look like a woman, act like a woman, dress like a woman, they must actually be male. In the transphobic thread, a 'transvestigator' who claimed to be able to ID male vs. female said, in a case like this one 'mistakes will be made'.

Now it's 'Self ID is the problem'? Well, this girl was born with a vagina, and apparently 'self ID's' as a woman, and that isn't good enough. Should all women be investigated for having the correct lady bits? Or is it just the women who don't fit the mold of what you think a female looks like?
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Old 10th February 2024, 01:12 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Utah's laws governing transgender participation in sports cover the issues of self-identification, social transition, and medical transition. I have some issues with those laws, but I see in them an attempt to discuss gender in a more nuanced way. Not all transgender students have been approved to participate as they desire; to my knowledge, four students have been denied.
These questions have been asked and answered, belabored many times over, in The Other Thread. Here I'll summarize my current position thus: A nuanced approach in public policy is misguided. There is no nuance to biological sex in humans. The basis for sex segregation in some areas of our society is well-established and does not admit nuance. Trying to add nuance to these things is harmful to society. Meanwhile gender, decoupled from sex, is so "nuanced" as to be practically meaningless. The important point in public policy, prohibition of discrimination on the basis of gender expression (whatever that means), is already well-addressed, and also requires very little nuance. Trying to add more nuance to gender expression in public policy is also harmful to society. Utahn laws in this area are trying to thread a needle that should not be threaded, and are causing harm to society in the attempt.


Quote:
I'm pleased that while we may disagree on some issues, we seem to agree that Ms Cline's behavior was inappropriate. For me, that's the important take-away in this thread.
I too, am pleased that we agree that Ms Cline's behavior was inappropriate. However, for me this is a banal observation and not the only important takeaway.

Quote:
I feel I could debate these points, but the point I want to make is that while Ms Cline's actions are clearly inappropriate, she was elected by a majority of her district, many of whom are cheering her on even as we speak. Is that a better solution?
Here I think there is good reason for nuance. Bad policy and poisonous discourse lead to civil unrest. Civil unrest is not often a healthy expression of civil society. Now these people are upset and adding their own poisonous discourse to a public conversation that has already been made extremely toxic by trans rights activists. They are lashing out in bad ways that make the situation worse. But it's already a bad situation, and turning a blind eye on the antecedents to this lashing-out, is not going to make it better.
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Old 10th February 2024, 01:23 PM   #27
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
it's simple misogyny. If someone doesn't look like a woman, act like a woman, dress like a woman, they must actually be male. In the transphobic thread, a 'transvestigator' who claimed to be able to ID male vs. female said, in a case like this one 'mistakes will be made'.

Now it's 'Self ID is the problem'? Well, this girl was born with a vagina, and apparently 'self ID's' as a woman, and that isn't good enough. Should all women be investigated for having the correct lady bits? Or is it just the women who don't fit the mold of what you think a female looks like?
It is a fundamental principle of the entitlement to identify as female, by self-declaration rather than diagnosis or independent observation, that such identification cannot be questioned or challenged in any way. The entitlement, as formulated, effectively silences anyone who thinks this is unhealthy and unfair. Anyone who questions the orthodoxy is dismissed as a transphobe and told to shut up. As we see here, you have mastered the orthodox debate strategy. Is it any wonder that some people who dissent from this orthodoxy are now lashing out as the results percolate through society? Take away the principle of fiat self-ID, and the problem of masculine women in sports largely goes away. Uphold that principle, and of course some people are going to start asking ugly questions, because the door to those questions has been opened wide.

Yes, this lady and her supporters are behaving badly. But this is the can of worms that lies open before us, and fiat self-ID is the can opener.
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Old 10th February 2024, 03:34 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Yes, this lady and her supporters are behaving badly. But this is the can of worms that lies open before us, and fiat self-ID is the can opener.
Do you believe that Ms Cline and her supporters would not behave the way they do but for the actions of the minorities they oppose?
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Old 10th February 2024, 04:00 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
'Transvestigators' have been harassing many women they claim must be transgender women for a few years now. Athletes are one of the more popular categories to attack. A rugby player was accused recently too, and she's also cis. Michelle Obama, Anne Hathaway, Henry Cavil, Daniel Radcliffe's girlfriend Erin Darke who was pregnant at the time, the list goes on and on.

People so accused are often then relentlessly harassed. The parents here were right to be concerned about suicide because that's happened several times.

Of note, Utah's legislature overcame a governor's veto for a law barring transgender student athletes, which was then put on hold by a judge's ruling.

EDIT: Concerns over transgender athletes have lead to testosterone limits in women's sports, barring some cisgender women from sports, you know, just to be sure?
It is true that a blanket ban worldwide on males contesting female sport would eliminate the type of error this woman made.
Most of us were raised at a time this error would be impossible.
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Old 10th February 2024, 04:05 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It is a fundamental principle of the entitlement to identify as female, by self-declaration rather than diagnosis or independent observation, that such identification cannot be questioned or challenged in any way. The entitlement, as formulated, effectively silences anyone who thinks this is unhealthy and unfair. Anyone who questions the orthodoxy is dismissed as a transphobe and told to shut up. As we see here, you have mastered the orthodox debate strategy. Is it any wonder that some people who dissent from this orthodoxy are now lashing out as the results percolate through society? Take away the principle of fiat self-ID, and the problem of masculine women in sports largely goes away. Uphold that principle, and of course some people are going to start asking ugly questions, because the door to those questions has been opened wide.

Yes, this lady and her supporters are behaving badly. But this is the can of worms that lies open before us, and fiat self-ID is the can opener.
Eligibility for participation in a sports league is a legitimate concern, if one has standing. I have no objection to someone with standing, by which I mean athletes, coaches, and (in the case where the athletes are minors) parents questioning an athlete's eligibility on any grounds, not just sex. However, there is (or should be) a process for this which should be non-public. Doing so publicly should have consequences, particularly in the case of youth sports, regardless of whether the complaint has merit.

For example, parents who make public accusations about eligibility could have their child declared ineligible as a result of their actions. A coach doing so could forfeit a game or season for his team.

When my daughter participated on school sports, two documents were required: A birth certificate, and a doctor's certificate of physical fitness to participate.
A birth certificate confirms the non-academic or residency based eligibility criteria: Age and sex. Eligibility was determined by documentation not by fiat self-id. I doubt that has changed.

While I know that changing the birth certificate is a thing, I doubt that it happens much in the case of minors, though in Illinois a parent can sign the request. (Maybe that particular action should require the person to be over 18?)

My point is that the information to verify eligibility is currently available without a physical exam or even making the child aware that their sex (or age) is being challenged.

This is a completely different issue than the debate over trans inclusion policies in sports or even discussing the cases of particular athletes whose trans status is public.
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Old 10th February 2024, 04:16 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
There is no nuance to biological sex in humans.
How to say you've not learned anything about genetics beyond the "lies-to-children" of undergraduate education. From the genes that provide the basis of physiological sex (X and Y, which present in multiples and absences and mangled forms) to the signals which guide fetal development (mostly from embryo, partly from mother) all the way to "penis at 12" and androgen insensitivity. Sex is a spectrum from very male to very female and we all form to be somewhere on that spectrum.
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Old 10th February 2024, 04:18 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
It is true that a blanket ban worldwide on males contesting female sport would eliminate the type of error this woman made.
This was not simply an "error." This was an uninvolved adult in a position of authority publicly humiliating a minor.

Even if she had been correct that the girl was born male, it would not be acceptable or excusable.
Quote:
Most of us were raised at a time this error would be impossible.
********.

People have been speculating about masculine appearing female athletes for a very long time. Certainly when I was in school in the 80s.
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Old 10th February 2024, 04:21 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
How to say you've not learned anything about genetics beyond the "lies-to-children" of undergraduate education. From the genes that provide the basis of physiological sex (X and Y, which present in multiples and absences and mangled forms) to the signals which guide fetal development (mostly from embryo, partly from mother) all the way to "penis at 12" and androgen insensitivity. Sex is a spectrum from very male to very female and we all form to be somewhere on that spectrum.
As a biologist, my position is that sex is not a spectrum, but that some sexually linked traits are. Also, intersex conditions exist, but do not represent a "spectrum."
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Old 10th February 2024, 04:26 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by TomB View Post
This was not simply an "error." This was an uninvolved adult in a position of authority publicly humiliating a minor.

Even if she had been correct that the girl was born male, it would not be acceptable or excusable.


********.

People have been speculating about masculine appearing female athletes for a very long time. Certainly when I was in school in the 80s.
This and then some. The presumed harm of having the occasional trans athlete in school sports is, I think, trivial compared to the harm of people like that making our society hostile, hateful, stupid, narrow minded and just plain dirty. To say it's just a "mistake" is to say that the hatred, threats and disruption of a student's life would be perfectly acceptable if that student had been trans, or otherwise sexually ambiguous. As if the mistake was simply that they humiliated the wrong person this time. I say ********. It should never be all right.
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Old 10th February 2024, 04:29 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by tyr_13
EDIT: Concerns over transgender athletes have lead to testosterone limits in women's sports, barring some cisgender women from sports, you know, just to be sure?
Has this changed? There have been testosterone limits in women's sports for many years, at least in the ones requiring strength. Because some cis women tried to cheat by unnaturally bulking up. Cheating in sports isn't just a guy thing.
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Old 10th February 2024, 04:36 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by TomB View Post
As a biologist, my position is that sex is not a spectrum, but that some sexually linked traits are. Also, intersex conditions exist, but do not represent a "spectrum."
The genotype might not be, as it's going to be based on X and Y, but what of the phenotype expressed from those genes? Even in the basic biology courses of undergrad we were told that we used to genotype ourselves, but because multiple sex chromosomes were associated with lower intelligence and were popping up more often than previously expected, for privacy reasons we no longer did. For that matter, which is more important? Genes, which no one usually sees, or how the body expressed those genes for all eyes to see?
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Old 10th February 2024, 04:46 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
This and then some. The presumed harm of having the occasional trans athlete in school sports is, I think, trivial compared to the harm of people like that making our society hostile, hateful, stupid, narrow minded and just plain dirty. To say it's just a "mistake" is to say that the hatred, threats and disruption of a student's life would be perfectly acceptable if that student had been trans, or otherwise sexually ambiguous. As if the mistake was simply that they humiliated the wrong person this time. I say ********. It should never be all right.
The path to corporate success for women is often sport. The chilling effect on female participation extends well beyond the infrequent incidence, to the point women stop competing.
This official is part of this wider issue. It is certain that sport will revert to sex based participation. If that statement proves to be false, this is a further defeat for the rights of the weak sex.
It is appalling that men would ever argue for their sex to compete against women.
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Old 10th February 2024, 04:50 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It is a fundamental principle of the entitlement to identify as female, by self-declaration rather than diagnosis or independent observation, that such identification cannot be questioned or challenged in any way. The entitlement, as formulated, effectively silences anyone who thinks this is unhealthy and unfair. Anyone who questions the orthodoxy is dismissed as a transphobe and told to shut up. As we see here, you have mastered the orthodox debate strategy. Is it any wonder that some people who dissent from this orthodoxy are now lashing out as the results percolate through society? Take away the principle of fiat self-ID, and the problem of masculine women in sports largely goes away. Uphold that principle, and of course some people are going to start asking ugly questions, because the door to those questions has been opened wide.

Yes, this lady and her supporters are behaving badly. But this is the can of worms that lies open before us, and fiat self-ID is the can opener.
One hears about the effect of this or that percolating through society, and well the might, but are you aware of bad effects that actually are percolating through society? Are there such effects that are worse for society than the efforts of those like Cline?

You speak of "fiat" gender identification. But is there evidence that the girl in question was not, at some point in her life, identified as female by someone other than herself? The incident in question involves a presumption, not only that anyone might present as trans, but that anyone can publicly challenge anyone on the grounds of sexual stereotypes, without knowledge, wisdom, authority or cause. Does your opposition mean that you, for example, should be allowed to approach a high school girl and demand that she prove to your satisfaction that she was born with a vagina? If not, why not? How would that differ from the situation this thread is about?

I don't think we're talking here just about a mistake. It's a fundamental problem on who is entitled to live without harm, and who is entitled to do them harm.
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Old 10th February 2024, 04:56 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
One hears about the effect of this or that percolating through society, and well the might, but are you aware of bad effects that actually are percolating through society? Are there such effects that are worse for society than the efforts of those like Cline?

You speak of "fiat" gender identification. But is there evidence that the girl in question was not, at some point in her life, identified as female by someone other than herself? The incident in question involves a presumption, not only that anyone might present as trans, but that anyone can publicly challenge anyone on the grounds of sexual stereotypes, without knowledge, wisdom, authority or cause. Does your opposition mean that you, for example, should be allowed to approach a high school girl and demand that she prove to your satisfaction that she was born with a vagina? If not, why not? How would that differ from the situation this thread is about?

I don't think we're talking here just about a mistake. It's a fundamental problem on who is entitled to live without harm, and who is entitled to do them harm.
There is a cohort of women who hold that men are not women, and that they should not play in women's sport. Maybe Natalie is one of this cohort, and hyper vigilant.
Maybe she is not evil.
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Old 10th February 2024, 04:58 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Maybe she is not evil.
She is.
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