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Old 10th February 2024, 02:23 PM   #1
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Hind Rajab, 6, found dead in Gaza days after phone calls for help

Hind Rajab, 6, found dead in Gaza days after phone calls for help

Quote:
A six-year-old girl who went missing in Gaza City last month has been found dead, along with several of her relatives and two paramedics who tried to save her, after they appear to have come under fire from Israeli tanks.

Hind Rajab was fleeing the city in a car with her aunt, uncle and three cousins at the time.

Audio recordings of calls between Hind and emergency call operators suggest that the six-year-old was the only one left alive in the car, hiding from Israeli forces among the bodies of her relatives.

Her pleas for someone to rescue her ended when the phone line was cut amid the sound of more gunfire.

Paramedics from the Palestinian Red Crescent Society (PRCS) managed on Saturday to reach the area, which had previously been closed off as an active combat zone.

They found the black Kia car Hind had been travelling in - its windscreen and dashboard smashed to pieces, bullet holes scattered across the side.

One paramedic told journalists that Hind was among the six bodies found inside the car, all of which showed signs of gunfire and shelling.

A few metres away were the remains of another vehicle - completely burnt out, its engine spilling onto the ground. This, the Red Crescent says, is the ambulance sent to fetch Hind.

Its crew - Yusuf al-Zeino and Ahmed al-Madhoun - were killed when the ambulance was bombed by Israeli forces, the organisation says.
I heard the phone call on NPR. The girl pleads for help until there's a burst of gunfire and the call ends.

This is the Kia that Hind Rajab and her family died in:



And this is the ambulance in which two Red Crescent workers died in:



I'd like someone to tell me how this is justified.
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Old 10th February 2024, 02:30 PM   #2
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What information would you require, to conclude that it was justified?
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Old 10th February 2024, 02:32 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What information would you require, to conclude that it was justified?
That's up to you. Take your best shot.
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Old 10th February 2024, 02:37 PM   #4
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Hamas terrorists clearly come of all ages and sizes.
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Old 10th February 2024, 02:58 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Hamas terrorists clearly come of all ages and sizes.
The driver of that car entered an active combat zone, suddenly drove into a street and came face-to-face with IDF tanks and then he decided to flee, as for some unknown reason he felt that his car was invulnerable to tank fire at point-blank range.

The ambulances are another story -- they are in the employ of Hamas, across the board.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-...erheard-by-idf

There is one thing which I'm certainly grateful for, the young people in Gaza are not being sent into combat with RPG's (See: RPG kids, Lebanon https://www.memri.org/tv/pa-show-pal...ren-fight-jews )
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Old 10th February 2024, 04:25 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What information would you require, to conclude that it was justified?
Given that the IDF shot escaped Israelis who had been held hostage, who were waving white flags and shouting in Hebrew, I don't think they are spending much time bothering with justification.
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Old 10th February 2024, 10:22 PM   #7
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It's not a sign of strength, but of complete weakness that the IDF is making no attempts to distinguish between combatants and non-combatants.
Israel had all the sympathy of the world after the Hamas attack, and decided to throw it all away on a murderous tantrum instead of actually trying to bring back the hostages.
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Old 10th February 2024, 11:08 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
It's not a sign of strength, but of complete weakness that the IDF is making no attempts to distinguish between combatants and non-combatants.
Israel had all the sympathy of the world after the Hamas attack, and decided to throw it all away on a murderous tantrum instead of actually trying to bring back the hostages.
No, that's a side effect of cowards that don't wear uniform, and hide behind women and children.

If you choose to fight a war, while disguised as a civilian, you choose to have a lot of civilian casualties.
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Old 10th February 2024, 11:19 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
No, that's a side effect of cowards that don't wear uniform, and hide behind women and children.

If you choose to fight a war, while disguised as a civilian, you choose to have a lot of civilian casualties.
TIL Hamas disguise themselves as 6-year old girls.
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Old 10th February 2024, 11:39 PM   #10
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
No, that's a side effect of cowards that don't wear uniform, and hide behind women and children.

If you choose to fight a war, while disguised as a civilian, you choose to have a lot of civilian casualties.
Thanks for making my point that it's okay with you and the IDF to kill women and children.
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Old 11th February 2024, 02:23 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
It's not a sign of strength, but of complete weakness that the IDF is making no attempts to distinguish between combatants and non-combatants.
Israel had all the sympathy of the world after the Hamas attack, and decided to throw it all away on a murderous tantrum instead of actually trying to bring back the hostages.
Absolutely nailed.
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Old 11th February 2024, 02:31 AM   #12
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Obviously the death of this girl was a tragedy. I find the use of the term 'justified' to be unnecessarily inflammatory. Has the IDF attempted to 'justify' this killing? Has Hamas? Has anyone? Is asking how it is justified anything other than a strawman attack on people who have been criticising Hamas and more supportive of Israel? Is this an attempt to say anyone vaguely pro-Israel is in favour of shooting children? I really don't like that phrasing at all.
Also, is there any confirmation that it was indeed the IDF that was responsible? The Palestinians have a habit of attributing their own friendly fire casualties to Israel- look at what happened with that so-called '500 dead in hospital bombing' incident.
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Old 11th February 2024, 02:34 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
The driver of that car entered an active combat zone, suddenly drove into a street and came face-to-face with IDF tanks and then he decided to flee, as for some unknown reason he felt that his car was invulnerable to tank fire at point-blank range.
Source?

Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
The ambulances are another story -- they are in the employ of Hamas, across the board.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-...erheard-by-idf
No doubt the jihad apologists here will squeal, but, yes, Hamas is known for this kind of tactic.
Interestingly, it says in this article that Hamas acknowledge that 'the Jews don't attack ambulances'.
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Old 11th February 2024, 02:35 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Given that the IDF shot escaped Israelis who had been held hostage, who were waving white flags and shouting in Hebrew, I don't think they are spending much time bothering with justification.
You might want to read the fuller accounts of that incident, posted in the Israel/Hamas thread. It's always a good idea to be in possession of all the facts before jumping to conclusions.
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Old 11th February 2024, 05:13 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
You might want to read the fuller accounts of that incident, posted in the Israel/Hamas thread. It's always a good idea to be in possession of all the facts before jumping to conclusions.
is it your opinion that the IDF did everything right in that incident?

Do you think the relatives of the hostages should have a say in how their return is going to be achieved?

By most accounts, a single hostage so far has been rescued through military actions, all the others have been returned in negotiated swaps.

at this point, only extreme political motivation would make anyone thing that the IDF can and will rescue the remaining hostages.
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Old 11th February 2024, 05:49 AM   #16
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CY -- source for the incident with the tank:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/i...rip-rcna122801

Looking at it again, I think this is another version of a similar incident, because that car in the video is silver and the vehicle described in this unfortunate story was a black Kia.

In any case, when a combat tank blocks your way, stop. Do not try to drive away. Life Lesson for everyone.
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Old 11th February 2024, 06:34 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
No, that's a side effect of cowards that don't wear uniform, and hide behind women and children.

If you choose to fight a war, while disguised as a civilian, you choose to have a lot of civilian casualties.
Both the person who killed this child and the person who put her in that position bear responsibility for her death. In this case the person who killed her has more direct responsibility. If she was being used as a direct human shield when the killing happened, I would say the person who was using her as a human shield bears all the responsibility. What "side" did the killing makes not one iota of a difference to me when I make such determinations.
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Old 11th February 2024, 06:43 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
It's not a sign of strength, but of complete weakness that the IDF is making no attempts to distinguish between combatants and non-combatants.
Israel had all the sympathy of the world after the Hamas attack, and decided to throw it all away on a murderous tantrum instead of actually trying to bring back the hostages.
They had my sympathy too, until Netanyahu and the IDF showed that they are willing to engage in murder of innocents. Not "war collateral," outright murder of people they know full well are not Hamas. This is reminiscent of the war criminals Nixon and Kissinger with their policies in Vietnam that involved bombing and terrorizing innocent villagers, killing untold numbers.

Israel will pay a heavy price for their response, but the innocents are paying a far greater price.
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Old 11th February 2024, 06:48 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Both the person who killed this child and the person who put her in that position bear responsibility for her death. In this case the person who killed her has more direct responsibility. If she was being used as a direct human shield when the killing happened, I would say the person who was using her as a human shield bears all the responsibility. What "side" did the killing makes not one iota of a difference to me when I make such determinations.
She was NOT a human shield. The driver of the car she was in panicked and tried to run. That was a mistake, but should people die for small mistakes? Do black men who get gunned down when they panic and run from white cops deserve it?
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Old 11th February 2024, 06:53 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
CY -- source for the incident with the tank:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/i...rip-rcna122801

Looking at it again, I think this is another version of a similar incident, because that car in the video is silver and the vehicle described in this unfortunate story was a black Kia.

In any case, when a combat tank blocks your way, stop. Do not try to drive away. Life Lesson for everyone.
Thank you, Inspector Javert, for the lesson that people should be heavily punished for minor mistakes. Now go jail someone who has stolen a loaf of bread.
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Old 11th February 2024, 06:56 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
She was NOT a human shield. The driver of the car she was in panicked and tried to run. That was a mistake, but should people die for small mistakes? Do black men who get gunned down when they panic and run from white cops deserve it?
I wasn't saying she was - in this case she certainly wasn't which is why I said the person who killed her is entirely responsible for her death.
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Old 11th February 2024, 07:05 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I wasn't saying she was - in this case she certainly wasn't which is why I said the person who killed her is entirely responsible for her death.
I didn't say you were saying she was. I apologize that it appeared that way. I only meant to point out that your hypothetical wasn't actually the case. I agree with the rest of your post.
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Old 12th February 2024, 12:28 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Both the person who killed this child and the person who put her in that position bear responsibility for her death. In this case the person who killed her has more direct responsibility. If she was being used as a direct human shield when the killing happened, I would say the person who was using her as a human shield bears all the responsibility. What "side" did the killing makes not one iota of a difference to me when I make such determinations.
The family was evacuating as ordered by the IDF, her mother and older siblings walked, her mother put the six year old into a car with her uncle and cousins to evacuate. There was no human shield. Note there is no claim by the IDF that any weapons were present in the car.

Remember that the red crescent had contacted the IDF to get permission for an ambulance to get the child so the IDF knew that there was a child there. The laws of war require combatants to give such aid to civilians as is practical, that includes medical aid and removing a child from danger. It does not include finishing the job by machine gunning her.
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Old 12th February 2024, 12:34 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
The driver of that car entered an active combat zone, suddenly drove into a street and came face-to-face with IDF tanks and then he decided to flee, as for some unknown reason he felt that his car was invulnerable to tank fire at point-blank range.

The ambulances are another story -- they are in the employ of Hamas, across the board.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-...erheard-by-idf

There is one thing which I'm certainly grateful for, the young people in Gaza are not being sent into combat with RPG's (See: RPG kids, Lebanon https://www.memri.org/tv/pa-show-pal...ren-fight-jews )
Ambulances are protected under international war, this was a marked ambulance. The law also requires that an assumption is made that they are a protected civilian vehicle. That another ambulance at another time was used to transport militants is irrelevant. The protection is specific to that ambulance at that time. The Red Crescent had sought and gained permission from the IDF for the rescue mission. Two Red Crescent members bravely volunteered to go and get the child in what turned out to be a suicide mission.

This clearly seems to be a war crime. International authorities have asked the IDF to identify the unit concerned. Israel's best option is to put its own soldiers on trial. The ICC has said it has jurisdiction and investigations have started.
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Old 12th February 2024, 12:39 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
The driver of that car entered an active combat zone, suddenly drove into a street and came face-to-face with IDF tanks and then he decided to flee, as for some unknown reason he felt that his car was invulnerable to tank fire at point-blank range.

The ambulances are another story -- they are in the employ of Hamas, across the board.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-...erheard-by-idf

There is one thing which I'm certainly grateful for, the young people in Gaza are not being sent into combat with RPG's (See: RPG kids, Lebanon https://www.memri.org/tv/pa-show-pal...ren-fight-jews )
The whole of Gaza is an active combat zone from which civilians are not allowed to leave. The family were evacuating as ordered by the IDF. There is no evidence that the car tried to flee you are conflating two war crimes into one.

ETA Actually three war crimes, deliberately killing civilians evacuating as ordered by car x2. Targeting an ambulance given permission to retrieve a casualty by the occupying authority x 1.

Last edited by Planigale; 12th February 2024 at 12:41 AM.
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Old 12th February 2024, 12:49 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
The driver of that car entered an active combat zone, suddenly drove into a street and came face-to-face with IDF tanks and then he decided to flee, as for some unknown reason he felt that his car was invulnerable to tank fire at point-blank range.

The ambulances are another story -- they are in the employ of Hamas, across the board.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-...erheard-by-idf

There is one thing which I'm certainly grateful for, the young people in Gaza are not being sent into combat with RPG's (See: RPG kids, Lebanon https://www.memri.org/tv/pa-show-pal...ren-fight-jews )
After days of torture by Shin Bet detainees will confess to whatever Shin Bet find convenient. I do not believe the 'confessions' of those interrogated by Shin Bet to be reliable evidence. The telephone call quoted could have been from someone injured, with a convenient quote taken out of context.

The law is clear an ambulance has to be assumed to be carrying out humanitarian duty unless there is evidence otherwise. What another ambulance did at another time and place is irrelevant to this ambulance at this time. If there is a general order to attack Palestinian ambulances that is a war crime and is an illegal order and should not be obeyed.
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Old 12th February 2024, 12:54 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
CY -- source for the incident with the tank:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/i...rip-rcna122801

Looking at it again, I think this is another version of a similar incident, because that car in the video is silver and the vehicle described in this unfortunate story was a black Kia.

In any case, when a combat tank blocks your way, stop. Do not try to drive away. Life Lesson for everyone.
Any evidence that they tried to drive away? The little girl clearly say the tanks were in front and coming closer.
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Old 12th February 2024, 06:12 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Hind Rajab, 6, found dead in Gaza days after phone calls for help



I heard the phone call on NPR. The girl pleads for help until there's a burst of gunfire and the call ends.

This is the Kia that Hind Rajab and her family died in:

https://www.internationalskeptics.co...7e880572a2.jpg

And this is the ambulance in which two Red Crescent workers died in:

https://www.internationalskeptics.co...7e8806f077.jpg

I'd like someone to tell me how this is justified.
If there was anybody with an ounce of morality or conscience still supporting Israel, this single event should dispel any doubts about what they are supporting. Israel is committing Endlösung, plain and simple.
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Old 12th February 2024, 06:53 AM   #29
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I have a ton of morality and conscience, thanks for asking.

Where is Kfir Bibas?
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Old 12th February 2024, 07:03 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Any evidence that they tried to drive away? The little girl clearly say the tanks were in front and coming closer.
This incident is over and done with. While tragic, this war has unleashed some rather numerous tragedies.

I already explained that my impression was focused on a video of an IDF tank obliterating a fleeing car recently.
Different car, separate scene. My bad. Fog of war and all.

Quote:
I do not believe the 'confessions' of those interrogated by Shin Bet to be reliable evidence
- about Ambulances used by Hamas.

I do, actually, and know that information provided by captured Hamas guys is generally reliable
(SEE: Rescue of 2 hostages today, using very detailed intelligence from interrogations revealing the precise whereabouts of these Argentinians).

Also today, 20 Hamas guys were captured hiding inside a hospital. After they surrendered, the IDF started to bring in supplies for the patients there (oxygen tanks were delivered via Namer APC, according to the report I saw).
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