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Old 7th November 2023, 09:02 AM   #1
phiwum
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Luton Airport Car Park Fire part II

Mod Info Continued from here.
Posted By:Agatha






Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Why do we have to wait for the report. Why cannot we be told what car, model and make it is, now? What is the big need for secrecy?
Who knows? But given that we have not been officially told yet and that we know eventually will be told, I see no reason to guess what the model is.

You seem to be appealing to the best explanation to conclude that the chief is under a gag order coming from the prime minister. But I don't think this is a good explanation for why no official identification of the vehicle was made. It is implausible.

Indeed, the silence could be due to anything at all. There's no rule that the vehicle be identified early on, so I'm not surprised or perplexed that it hasn't been.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

Last edited by Agatha; 7th November 2023 at 12:18 PM.
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Old 7th November 2023, 09:05 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Do you have a reliable source for that video other than an anonymous unverified user on Twitter with 232 followers?
It's not my source. You provided it, and claimed visual discrepencies where there are none visible.
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Old 7th November 2023, 09:12 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
It's not my source. You provided it, and claimed visual discrepencies where there are none visible.
Rings a bell. Vixen once posted a video of a burning car plunging through the car park floor at Luton, claiming iirc that it had 'melted' its way through.

I took a screen shot from that video which showed that, in fact, two floor slabs had collapsed. Vixen asked me to show that my source was trustworthy
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Old 7th November 2023, 10:34 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
It was not any longer a £130k+ car, as you tried to describe it, that's for sure, but nor is a 2014 car a pile of old junk. Try to get over the idea that if something is not at one extreme it must necessarily be the opposite extreme.
Cult thinking, albeit in this case a cult of one. That's the only way you can maintain the fiction that everyone else you meet who's outside the cult is wrong or lying.
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Old 7th November 2023, 11:27 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It was another poster who claimed such a car was 'elderly'.
Originally Posted by Andy_Ross View Post
and you that introduced the term 'old banger'

Are you from the 60s?

Yes, if not from earlier. See the quotation here: Middlesex County Council was abolished in 1965.
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Old 7th November 2023, 11:50 AM   #6
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A mid range 2014 Evoque costs circa £15k, to convert it to electric circa £20k. On top of that is VOSA testing, registration and crippling insurance. A 2020 Evoque hybrid costs circa £30k.
Why bother Vixen?
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Old 7th November 2023, 12:20 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by welshdean View Post
A mid range 2014 Evoque costs circa £15k, to convert it to electric circa £20k. On top of that is VOSA testing, registration and crippling insurance. A 2020 Evoque hybrid costs circa £30k.
Why bother Vixen?
Because, despite the confirmation from the fire service that itis a diesel car, it still somehow needs to be electric.
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Old 7th November 2023, 03:32 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Rings a bell. Vixen once posted a video of a burning car plunging through the car park floor at Luton, claiming iirc that it had 'melted' its way through.

I took a screen shot from that video which showed that, in fact, two floor slabs had collapsed. Vixen asked me to show that my source was trustworthy
What makes that claim so utterly ridiculous (other than the fact that it's clearly the floor collapsing) is the idea that a fire with temperatures hot enough to "melt through concrete slabs" would leave anything recognizable as a car to fall through the hole. Steel has a lower melting point than concrete.

Everything Vixen has posted points to her thinking that battery fires are these tremendously destructive events, like some sort of core meltdown, that can consume an entire parking garage with their own energy only, even "melting through the floor". But the NHTSA released a study that concluded that while Li-ion batteries fires can be difficult to extinguish...

Quote:
The propensity and severity of fires and explosions from the accidental ignition of flammable electrolytic solvents used in Li-ion battery systems are anticipated to be somewhat comparable to or perhaps slightly less than those for gasoline or diesel vehicular fuels. The overall consequences for Li-ion batteries are expected to be less because of the much smaller amounts of flammable solvent released and burning in a catastrophic failure situation.
- Stephens, D.; Shawcross, P.; et, al. (October 2017). "Lithium-ion battery safety issues for electric and plug-in hybrid vehicles" (Report No. DOT HS 812 418). Washington, DC: National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.

So even if it had been a fully electric vehicle, it's unlikely to have done any more than a diesel Land Rover in starting the fire.
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Old 7th November 2023, 03:52 PM   #9
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Clearly the US DOT is part of the conspiracy to downplay the civilizational risks posed by EVs. Bed Fire probably got a phone call from Joe Biden himself. "No more malarkey, Jack. US DOT said it, you believe it, that settles it. POTUS out!"
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Old 7th November 2023, 03:56 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Clearly the US DOT is part of the conspiracy to downplay the civilizational risks posed by EVs. Bed Fire probably got a phone call from Joe Biden himself. "No more malarkey, Jack. US DOT said it, you believe it, that settles it. POTUS out!"
But with Rishi, we know who gave him the orders -- his wife, duh. With Biden, we just don't know who gave him the orders and that makes it a lot scarier.
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Old 7th November 2023, 04:11 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
But with Rishi, we know who gave him the orders -- his wife, duh. With Biden, we just don't know who gave him the orders and that makes it a lot scarier.
Biden's orders come all the way from the top, from Dark Brandon himself.
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Old 7th November 2023, 04:39 PM   #12
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This is some Apollo hoax level photographic analysis, I must say.

Quote:
[photo 1] The vehicle is on a slope going upwards.
[photo 2] The vehicle now appears to be on flat ground or even in a 'valley'
That's utter nonsense. Without detailed information about the precise orientation of the camera, you can't tell if the floor is sloping one way or another. From the same location, you can orient the camera in different ways on successive shots to create the impression that the floor is sloping in different directions.

Quote:
[photo 1] Note the size and shape of the fire extinguisher to its right.
[photo 2] The fire extinguisher to its left (back view on its right) is disproportionately large and the wrong shape.
The first image is not in focus as well as the second, causing the edges of the extinguisher to be less distinct, causing the illusion that it's slightly narrower. And I see that other people have already cited the Father Ted perspective example.

Quote:
[photo 1] Note how the vehicle fits in its lane.
[photo 2] The vehicle is now too wide to fit in its lane. It straddles the centre white line!
Nonsense. If you hold a straight edge, like a piece of paper, along that line in photo 1, it shows that it runs under the car, to the inside of the right wheels, exactly like in photo 2.

Quote:
The bonnet/hood appears to be floating above the , er, bonnet.
You appear to be noting that the hood seems to have a gap between it and the front valence. Didn't your expert car salesman show you how to open the hood? When you pull the release, it raises just enough to let you get your hand in and manually release the catch. Isn't it likely that the driver, upon realizing that that distressing smell was coming from his vehicle, came to a stop and pulled the release, intending to inspect the engine, but after getting out realized that the vehicle was on fire and decided to go for an extinguisher instead? Doesn't that seem like a perfectly reasonable possibility that doesn't involve sinister foreign influences? Or is that the problem?

Quote:
Suddenly, the registration plate is readable! Quelle surprise!
That can happen when you have a photo with better focus taken from nearer the subject.

Quote:
I must say the sign saying to 'terminal' is a nice touch. Well faked, @andysoullinux. Fooled catsmate, the arbiter of all that is not drivel.
This is, by far, the most amusing part of your "analysis". The idea that it must be a fake because the informational signage looks just a little too suspiciously "airporty" is priceless.
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Old 7th November 2023, 05:33 PM   #13
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Informational signage thats informative???
What is this witchcraft????
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Old 8th November 2023, 05:41 AM   #14
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It appears we are in the "dramatic pause" phase of the thread, getting ready for the fringe reset.
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Old 8th November 2023, 05:50 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Disbelief View Post
It appears we are in the "dramatic pause" phase of the thread, getting ready for the fringe reset.
Seen this before, haven't we.
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Old 8th November 2023, 07:31 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
This is some Apollo hoax level photographic analysis, I must say.


That's utter nonsense. Without detailed information about the precise orientation of the camera, you can't tell if the floor is sloping one way or another. From the same location, you can orient the camera in different ways on successive shots to create the impression that the floor is sloping in different directions.


The first image is not in focus as well as the second, causing the edges of the extinguisher to be less distinct, causing the illusion that it's slightly narrower. And I see that other people have already cited the Father Ted perspective example.


Nonsense. If you hold a straight edge, like a piece of paper, along that line in photo 1, it shows that it runs under the car, to the inside of the right wheels, exactly like in photo 2.


You appear to be noting that the hood seems to have a gap between it and the front valence. Didn't your expert car salesman show you how to open the hood? When you pull the release, it raises just enough to let you get your hand in and manually release the catch. Isn't it likely that the driver, upon realizing that that distressing smell was coming from his vehicle, came to a stop and pulled the release, intending to inspect the engine, but after getting out realized that the vehicle was on fire and decided to go for an extinguisher instead? Doesn't that seem like a perfectly reasonable possibility that doesn't involve sinister foreign influences? Or is that the problem?


That can happen when you have a photo with better focus taken from nearer the subject.


This is, by far, the most amusing part of your "analysis". The idea that it must be a fake because the informational signage looks just a little too suspiciously "airporty" is priceless.
Guys and gals, please take a moment to get a grip, The video claiming to be a front view of the burning vehicle originates from some random guy on twitter with 295 followers and claiming to be a green EV enthusiast posted two days after the fire. Now the video may or may not be authentic but note, not one single news outlet has published it, which should tell you everything you need to know. A Romanian woman claimed she had filmed the vehicle before leaving it but do you not think she would claim authorship of the video and flog it around the major news agencies such as Getty Images for copyright and lucrative copyright income? In any case, even if remotely authentic:
  • there is no way you can decipher the number plate, which does not match the back in number of digits.
  • in the UK you can only look up a vehicle if you have the vehicle registration number!
  • nobody has produced an enlargement of the said 'front number plate' proving it is indeed E10 EFL.
  • if you want DVLA to give ownership details, you must write to DVLA and fill in a form.
  • In addition, the vehicle in the video looks disproportionately tall compared to other vehicles nearby.
Conclusion: the claim the vehicle has been identified as a Range Rover Sport 2014 is almost 100% false information.

Quote:
Get vehicle information from DVLA
Check online to find out what information the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) holds about a vehicle.

You’ll need the vehicle’s registration number (number plate).
https://www.gov.uk/get-vehicle-information-from-dvla

Quote:
People also ask
Can I find out who a car is registered to UK?
Information about registered keepers

You must write to DVLA to request information about the current or previous registered keeper of a vehicle.

Get vehicle information from DVLA - GOV.UK

Catsmate is lying to you when he claims he has authenticated his information.
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Old 8th November 2023, 07:42 AM   #17
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As normal Vixen is wrong. Google "Check MOT Status" and there's a government website that gives you the manufacturer MOT Status, fuel, engine capacity, year of manufacture , etc for a registration part for free with no other authorisation required.
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Old 8th November 2023, 07:46 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
As normal Vixen is wrong. Google "Check MOT Status" and there's a government website that gives you the manufacturer MOT Status, fuel, engine capacity, year of manufacture , etc for a registration part for free with no other authorisation required.
Er, first question is:

"What is the vehicle's registration number?
Registration number (number plate)"


If the number plate identified is correct, that should also give us the name and address of the owner, right?

So why is no journalist or twitter detective onto them?
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Old 8th November 2023, 07:53 AM   #19
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...and some twitter user calling herself 'Amy' with 480 followers claims to have looked up the DVLA details.

https://x.com/Amie_The_Runner/status...062127733?s=20

So this is where catsmate has pulled out the 'researched' information from.


Perhaps he should let the Fire Brigade know so that they can put it in their report.
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Old 8th November 2023, 07:53 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Er, first question is:

"What is the vehicle's registration number?
Registration number (number plate)"


If the number plate identified is correct, that should also give us the name and address of the owner, right?

So why is no journalist or twitter detective onto them?
Becase no one but you is nosy enough to see that irreleva tnfo made public.
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Old 8th November 2023, 07:54 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Er, first question is:

"What is the vehicle's registration number?
Registration number (number plate)"


If the number plate identified is correct, that should also give us the name and address of the owner, right?


So why is no journalist or twitter detective onto them?
No. I just tried it on my car and the address is not shown.
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Old 8th November 2023, 07:55 AM   #22
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ANYONE can pull up those details from the registration. I just did it myself on my phone.

ETA: Not owners details, the car details I listed earlier.
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Old 8th November 2023, 07:57 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
...and some twitter user calling herself 'Amy' with 480 followers claims to have looked up the DVLA details.

https://x.com/Amie_The_Runner/status...062127733?s=20

So this is where catsmate has pulled out the 'researched' information from.


Perhaps he should let the Fire Brigade know so that they can put it in their report.
Perhaps some anonymous poster named Vixen should let the Fire Brigade know all her well researched information so they can put that in their report.
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Old 8th November 2023, 07:57 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
ANYONE can pull up those details from the registration. I just did it myself on my phone.
Name and address too? Weird. Seems like a horrible security breach and, as mentioned, it's not visible on mine.

eta: "While it is possible to get the dvla car owner check by registration number, the process is not easy. The reason is the law; the UK government needs to protect the privacy of individuals. However, you can locate the registered owner of a car if you have a valid reason, such as:
Discovering the driver involved in a hit-and-run case
etc etc"
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Old 8th November 2023, 08:00 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
some random guy on twitter with 295 followers
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
...and some twitter user calling herself 'Amy' with 480 followers
and where, exactly, ISF member calling herself 'Vixen', are you getting your 'information' that this was an EV or hybrid, not a diesel car, where the fire started?


You are, of course, ignoring still the fact that the official website of the Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service has uncategoricaly stated that the fire started in a diesel car. Your bogus objections remain laughable, yet you have the nerve to accuse others of lying.
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Old 8th November 2023, 08:00 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
ANYONE can pull up those details from the registration. I just did it myself on my phone.
How do you know the vehicle has been identified correctly?

Anyone can insert the random number plate of a nearby Range Rover Sport and claim this is the car involved in the Luton fire.


The only persons claiming to know the vehicle registration number are a couple of random guys on twitter.

What a low bar of proof you need.
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Old 8th November 2023, 08:02 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Guys and gals, please take a moment to get a grip, The video claiming to be a front view of the burning vehicle originates from some random guy on twitter with 295 followers and claiming to be a green EV enthusiast posted two days after the fire. Now the video may or may not be authentic but note, not one single news outlet has published it, which should tell you everything you need to know. A Romanian woman claimed she had filmed the vehicle before leaving it but do you not think she would claim authorship of the video and flog it around the major news agencies such as Getty Images for copyright and lucrative copyright income? In any case, even if remotely authentic:
  • there is no way you can decipher the number plate, which does not match the back in number of digits.
  • in the UK you can only look up a vehicle if you have the vehicle registration number!
  • nobody has produced an enlargement of the said 'front number plate' proving it is indeed E10 EFL.
  • if you want DVLA to give ownership details, you must write to DVLA and fill in a form.
  • In addition, the vehicle in the video looks disproportionately tall compared to other vehicles nearby.
Conclusion: the claim the vehicle has been identified as a Range Rover Sport 2014 is almost 100% false information.

https://www.gov.uk/get-vehicle-information-from-dvla


Catsmate is lying to you when he claims he has authenticated his information.

More pathetic lies and evasion.
Still a diesel car nearly a decade old.
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Old 8th November 2023, 08:06 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Name and address too? Weird. Seems like a horrible security breach and, as mentioned, it's not visible on mine.

eta: "While it is possible to get the dvla car owner check by registration number, the process is not easy. The reason is the law; the UK government needs to protect the privacy of individuals. However, you can locate the registered owner of a car if you have a valid reason, such as:
Discovering the driver involved in a hit-and-run case
etc etc"
No, not a 'horrible security breach'. In Finland, and probably Sweden as we are like twins, privacy laws second to none*, anyone can look up a car number and find out the details of the owner, for a nominal fee. So no, it is not because of security reasons.


It is because:




...take a breath...







...the car number 'identified' is almost certainly 100% fake and the so-called front video an artificial intelligence mock-up.



*If someone is murdered, they won't even name that person (unless it is exceptional).
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Old 8th November 2023, 08:06 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
As normal Vixen is wrong. Google "Check MOT Status" and there's a government website that gives you the manufacturer MOT Status, fuel, engine capacity, year of manufacture , etc for a registration part for free with no other authorisation required.
Indeed, just one of Vixen's many, many, lies and evasions.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
...and some twitter user calling herself 'Amy' with 480 followers claims to have looked up the DVLA details.

https://x.com/Amie_The_Runner/status...062127733?s=20

So this is where catsmate has pulled out the 'researched' information from.


Perhaps he should let the Fire Brigade know so that they can put it in their report.


More lies as usual. I sourced absolutely nothing fromTwiX. But then you have a pathetic and desperate need to deny any facts that contradict your conspiratorial nonsense.
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Old 8th November 2023, 08:07 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
How do you know the vehicle has been identified correctly?

Anyone can insert the random number plate of a nearby Range Rover Sport and claim this is the car involved in the Luton fire.


The only persons claiming to know the vehicle registration number are a couple of random guys on twitter.

What a low bar of proof you need.
The police and fire brigade don't need to see the number plate, they saw the actual vehicle up close. They both said, without equivocation, that it was a diesel.
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Old 8th November 2023, 08:08 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
No. I just tried it on my car and the address is not shown.
Which is, to those of us living in the Real World, utterly expected.
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Old 8th November 2023, 08:08 AM   #32
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What a weird little conspiracy cult of one.
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Old 8th November 2023, 08:09 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
What a weird little conspiracy cult of one.
Oh there are other loons around who are desperately insisting the fire began with an EV, in spite of reality,
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Old 8th November 2023, 08:14 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Oh there are other loons around who are desperately insisting the fire began with an EV, in spite of reality,
Which is how the thread started, with Vixen apparently just reporting the fact that there was such a conspiracy theory, but she's since jumped in with both feet.
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Old 8th November 2023, 08:22 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
and where, exactly, ISF member calling herself 'Vixen', are you getting your 'information' that this was an EV or hybrid, not a diesel car, where the fire started?


You are, of course, ignoring still the fact that the official website of the Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service has uncategoricaly stated that the fire started in a diesel car. Your bogus objections remain laughable, yet you have the nerve to accuse others of lying.
I didn't say t was one or the other. I was pointing out that it hasn't been officially identified to the public. The press release is couched in qualifying disclaimers, if you care to read it carefully and most people don't.


I have an open mind. I have looked at it carefully and given the fire brigade were there within ten minutes (as confirmed) an explanation is needed as to why it could not put out a simple electric/diesel fuel fault as a matter of an ordinary everyday event. Given there are fire hydrants every X metres as per law, and the Fire brigade does have - funnily enough - range rover adapted fire suppressant vehicels designed to go into such low ceilinged places.

The owner's attempt to put out the fire with a handy fire extinguisher did not work. Two extinguishers appear to be nearby the vehicle, presumably empty.

The lack of black sooty smoke is another question.

In the Liverpool Echo fire, the Range Rover involved had been smouldering whilst parked alongside other vehicles for quite some while. When the Fire Brigade arrived in that case, it discovered two rows of about thirty cars were on fire and found to have been spread by a burning fuel line from the faulty Range Rover. This burning fuel had drained into the floors below and the fire fighters were able to stand in the car parks stairwells directing fire fighting materials at it. It was only when the fire spread TWO HOURS later that they had to withdraw from the building and call it uncontrollable.

The Luton Airport one was uncontrollable with the next level up ablaze within ten minutes and a major incident called half an hour after that. The blaze was so hot and intense, people could already hear the car windows smashing and fuel tanks exploding. A car plunged through to the lower level within two hours of the major incident announcement.

In the Liverpool Fire, there was ample time to evacuate all those - mostly horses in horse boxes - from the lower floor.

So, IMV it calls into question the claim this was a common or garden diesel car fire and it is reasonable to want to understand what make and model the car was.
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Old 8th November 2023, 08:24 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Which is how the thread started, with Vixen apparently just reporting the fact that there was such a conspiracy theory, but she's since jumped in with both feet.
No, you are the one who decided it was a conspiracy.
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Old 8th November 2023, 08:27 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Oh there are other loons around who are desperately insisting the fire began with an EV, in spite of reality,
Yes, but no-one else subscribes to the cult of "Vixen Can't Be Wrong".
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Old 8th November 2023, 08:30 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
The police and fire brigade don't need to see the number plate, they saw the actual vehicle up close. They both said, without equivocation, that it was a diesel.
Haha. The only way the police or fire brigade can identify the vehicle for sure is via its VIN.


You do know that number plate cloning and faked number plates are relatively common in the criminal world.? The anti-ULEZ guys have been encouraging people to do this recently.

So if an entire public use building burns down within three-quarters of an hour and you are the Old Bill do you really take a car number plate at face value without further enquiry? Where is your famous suspicion of a criminal offence and need to verify the correct vehicle number zero?
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Old 8th November 2023, 08:51 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
No, not a 'horrible security breach'. In Finland, and probably Sweden as we are like twins, privacy laws second to none*, anyone can look up a car number and find out the details of the owner, for a nominal fee. So no, it is not because of security reasons.
You can't in the UK. You have to jump though hoops with DVLA.

"Will a Vehicle Check show the registered keeper name?

No.

It is unlawful in the UK for us to disclose the registered keeper’s details without their permission and it’s the same for everyone else – unless you have a just cause."

link

"If you are looking to find a car owner by registration number (fixed name and address), our service is inadequate. Due to GDPR compliance, sharing car owners’ names and addresses with the public is unlawful."

link

And there are many similar links, all telling the same story.
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Old 8th November 2023, 08:53 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Haha. The only way the police or fire brigade can identify the vehicle for sure is via its VIN.


You do know that number plate cloning and faked number plates are relatively common in the criminal world.? The anti-ULEZ guys have been encouraging people to do this recently.

So if an entire public use building burns down within three-quarters of an hour and you are the Old Bill do you really take a car number plate at face value without further enquiry? Where is your famous suspicion of a criminal offence and need to verify the correct vehicle number zero?
So now the VIN plates were faked too?
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