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Old 15th November 2023, 07:33 AM   #521
Foster Zygote
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
He is a politician.


Make of that what you will.
Asserting that politicians always lie is as ridiculous as asserting that they never lie. It's a tactic used to attempt to mask one's ignorance and lack of solid evidence.

And what are you arguing now, regarding this unrelated incident? Are we seeing a deeper psychological phenomenon, wherein you wait to see what an investigation has to say, then insist that the opposite is true? Regarding Luton, the investigation first determined that it was likely a diesel vehicle, then said it was definitely a diesel vehicle. Regarding the LA I-10 fire, the investigation said it was probably arson. So are you positioning yourself to start another conspiracy theory that the arson explanation is a cover up for something else?
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Old 15th November 2023, 07:33 AM   #522
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Originally Posted by Andy_Ross View Post
The Fire Service (not Brigade) has already confirmed it started with a diesel car. They confirmed it weeks ago.
Then why did you wait all this time to tell us?
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Old 15th November 2023, 07:37 AM   #523
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
This is likely to take at least four months, given that is how long it took to bring out the report into the Liverpool ECHO fire.

Your specious pleadings that it has already been concluded does not succeed.
Your frantic pleading that we cannot already know the type of car in which the fire originated is desperate, ignorant, and wrong.
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Old 15th November 2023, 07:42 AM   #524
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Your talking Edward Learian nonsense doesn't turn it into a conspiracy theory.
Turn what into a conspiracy theory?

The I-10 fire? I haven't claimed that there's any conspiracy.

The Luton garage fire? You're the only one arguing that there's a conspiracy to hide the alleged involvement of a Li-ion battery in the cause of that fire.

Quote:
A fire did happen at Luton Airport Car Park and the Fire Brigade are investigating and writing the conventional report. This is likely to take at least four months, given that is how long it took to bring out the report into the Liverpool ECHO fire.
They have already stated unequivocally that the fire started in a diesel car. That alone doesn't mean the investigation is closed, as there are still more questions to be answered, such as how the fire started in that diesel car. But the part that is relevant to the discussion in this thread has been settled. It was a diesel car.

Quote:
Your specious pleadings that it has already been concluded does not succeed.
It has already been confirmed that it was a diesel car.
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Old 15th November 2023, 07:48 AM   #525
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Originally Posted by Andy_Ross View Post
The Fire Service (not Brigade) has already confirmed it started with a diesel car. They confirmed it weeks ago.
To deny that confirmation is fuelishness.
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Old 15th November 2023, 08:24 AM   #526
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
Asserting that politicians always lie is as ridiculous as asserting that they never lie. It's a tactic used to attempt to mask one's ignorance and lack of solid evidence.

And what are you arguing now, regarding this unrelated incident? Are we seeing a deeper psychological phenomenon, wherein you wait to see what an investigation has to say, then insist that the opposite is true? Regarding Luton, the investigation first determined that it was likely a diesel vehicle, then said it was definitely a diesel vehicle. Regarding the LA I-10 fire, the investigation said it was probably arson. So are you positioning yourself to start another conspiracy theory that the arson explanation is a cover up for something else?
Stop trying to change the subject. In an almost exact analogy to the Luton Airport Car Park Fire, Governor Newsom said of the LA Highway no. 10 fire, 'At this preliminary stage, it looks like arson', and all of the news outlet sub-editors, including the major news broadcasters, have shorthanded this to 'LA 10 Fire was arson, Gov Newsom confirms'. But the Fire Marshall said they are still investigating this avenue; they have found the place of origin and what seems to have caused the fire, together with needing to carry on interviewing homeless people who lived there (according to yesterday's latest update).

Now, this is based on previous experience of LA under-bridge fires - normally they can be traced to homeless persons, illegally and dangerously accessing electric power cables or anti-social behaviour. California has said that the lessee was in arrears with the lease. The property was piled up to the gills with inflammable materials (wooden pallets and hand sanitisers): another line of enquiry.

Since there is no report of any other possible cause for the fire then of course looking at historical causes of such fires is understandable and makes perfect sense. History says normal fire (as there is spalling of the concrete but repairs can be effected in as early as three weeks) so nothing extraordinary here. Fair assumption.

Likewise, with the Luton Airport Car Park Fire, the fire chief clearly stated - probably based on the previous Liverpool ECHO fire - that they don't believe it was an electric vehicle but it was believed to be a diesel one at this stage subject to verification. A later fire officer gave the opinion that it was likely a fuel-line leak, an opinion surely based on what happened at Liverpool but something he can't know for sure at this stage as the building was still smouldering as he spoke. Cars are still being salvaged, some are likely to be demolished with the remainder of the building. Firemen cannot enter as it is too dangerous, unlike at the Liverpool Car Park. So, yes, a fair assumption to make but it is not a confirmation.

I can recommend a course in content analysis which is useful for deciphering what articles are actually saying. With a lot of persuaders and influencers (aka advertising and marketing) and with people relying heavily on summaries and sound bites IMV it is important for people to understand what is being communicated. It is the same as the art of being a good listener. As an example of what people fail to hear is when I did training as a phoneline counsellor. Parents at the end of their tether rang in for help. The guy training us played us a tape of someone who said they wanted to kill themselves in between a load of other stuff. Almost to a person, counsellors missed that bit and failed to address it, either because it is uncomfortable to hear or because they just did not hear it. But it was important here because you have to hear it and address it, because as a counsellor, you can take action and save a life by discussing it further and offering real help. In other words, to be a good listener or a good reader, you need to note every word, not just the ones that leap out. This is one of the deficits of 'Plain English' because it doesn't always make clear the qualifiers and the disclaimers inherent in a public statement. Many a news headline should be suffixed with 'it is believed' or the other lazy way out, is to put a headline in quotation marks.

Either way, it is important to understand that the fire needs to be investigated. There are no instant answers as to the cause, only speculation and fair assumptions, based on previous history of similar fires. As a fire report takes several months to prepare, then someone who wants to understand how the fire started and how it progressed will wait to see this. Others are not interested and that is fine, too. However, it is a blatant lie to claim that the cause of the fire has been confirmed as of day one or even any time before the report is out.

This has zero to do with conspiracy theory but people who do not understand the concept of investigation who want to browbeat one into accepting their instant lazy, unthought-out answer based on trying to bend people to their will.
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Last edited by Vixen; 15th November 2023 at 08:28 AM.
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Old 15th November 2023, 08:30 AM   #527
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
This has zero to do with conspiracy theory but people who do not understand the concept of investigation who want to browbeat one into accepting their instant lazy, unthought-out answer based on trying to bend people to their will.
The best part of my day is when you try to Vixensplain my profession to me and everyone else.

Mile three and counting.
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Old 15th November 2023, 08:30 AM   #528
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
Turn what into a conspiracy theory?

The I-10 fire? I haven't claimed that there's any conspiracy.

The Luton garage fire? You're the only one arguing that there's a conspiracy to hide the alleged involvement of a Li-ion battery in the cause of that fire.


They have already stated unequivocally that the fire started in a diesel car. That alone doesn't mean the investigation is closed, as there are still more questions to be answered, such as how the fire started in that diesel car. But the part that is relevant to the discussion in this thread has been settled. It was a diesel car.


It has already been confirmed that it was a diesel car.
"Believed to be a diesel car" is the verbatim accredited quote. Learn to understand what was actually said.
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Old 15th November 2023, 08:31 AM   #529
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
"Believed to be a diesel car" is the verbatim accredited quote. Learn to understand what was actually said.
It has been officially confirmed by the fire service that it was a diesel car.
You can read the confirmation on their official website.
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Old 15th November 2023, 08:32 AM   #530
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
can recommend a course in content analysis which is useful for deciphering what articles are actually saying.
No. Most of your schtick seems to be deliberately misinterpreting, misunderstanding, or just plain failing to carefully read media reports and other sources you cite. You are not a reliable reporter, and you're definitely not the teacher.
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Old 15th November 2023, 08:34 AM   #531
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
"Believed to be a diesel car" is the verbatim accredited quote. Learn to understand what was actually said.
"Accredited" to whom? Learn to understand who's doing the saying and where they got their information.

Your unswerving reliance on garbled secondary sources is really funny. Sad, in a way, but funny.
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Old 15th November 2023, 08:37 AM   #532
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
No. Most of your schtick seems to be deliberately misinterpreting, misunderstanding, or just plain failing to carefully read media reports and other sources you cite. You are not a reliable reporter, and you're definitely not the teacher.
You claimed that Gov Newsom confirmed the LA 10 fire was arson. I strongly urge you go back and read what he said in full - and what the fire marshall said - and admit no such thing had been 'confirmed' (as of yesterday's date).
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Old 15th November 2023, 08:41 AM   #533
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You claimed that Gov Newsom confirmed the LA 10 fire was arson.
Nope.

Quote:
I strongly urge you go back and read what he said in full...
I strongly urge you to go back and read what I said in full, and contemplate that you're the only one who thought I wanted to talk about the I-10 fire.

For all the hay you're trying to make, you really are doing a very good job of demonstrating that you have very poor comprehension skills. Maybe you shouldn't be trying to lecture everyone else on yet another topic you know so very little about.
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Old 15th November 2023, 08:45 AM   #534
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
"Accredited" to whom? Learn to understand who's doing the saying and where they got their information.

Your unswerving reliance on garbled secondary sources is really funny. Sad, in a way, but funny.
A reputable news outlet will always provide the source of the information. All of them, including the BBC, cite Fire Chief for Bedfordshire, Andrew Hopkinson as saying:

Quote:
Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service revealed on Wednesday morning the cause of the blaze was a diesel car.

We dont believe it was an electric vehicle, Andrew Hopkinson, chief fire officer for Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service, said.

Its believed to be diesel-powered, at this stage all subject to verification. And then that fire has quickly and rapidly spread.
INDEPENDENT


Yet not withstanding its own disclaimer, the INDEPENDENT's headline for the same aforesaid article reads:

"Luton Airport fire: Cause of car park inferno that damaged 1,500 vehicles revealed"


And it is this that people like yourself seize on.

My advice: to determine whether information is reliable, seek a reliable source. Anyone can write shorthand 'Plain English' stuff anonymously on a webpage but do seek out the original - accredited - source for yourself instead of spreading false information that the cause of the Luton Car Park Fire has been concluded when it is still being investigated.


Likewise, do you have a verified source as to the registration number of catsmate's alleged culprit car? No, I thought not!
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Old 15th November 2023, 08:57 AM   #535
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
A reputable news outlet will always provide the source of the information.
Irrelevant. If a secondary source like news outlet uses the word "believed" but more authoritative primary sources use "confirmed," the language of the secondary source is their editorial choice, not a superseding fact. You rely on secondary sources not because they tell a more authoritative story, but because they use language that cultivates your conspiracy theory at the expense of fact.

Quote:
And it is this that people like yourself seize on.
No. Everyone but you is citing primary sources.

Quote:
My advice...
Yes! Vixensplain some more for me! You know what I want to hear.
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Old 15th November 2023, 09:00 AM   #536
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...Vixensplain...
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Old 15th November 2023, 09:15 AM   #537
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
A reputable news outlet will always provide the source of the information. All of them, including the BBC, cite Fire Chief for Bedfordshire, Andrew Hopkinson as saying:

INDEPENDENT


Yet not withstanding its own disclaimer, the INDEPENDENT's headline for the same aforesaid article reads:

"Luton Airport fire: Cause of car park inferno that damaged 1,500 vehicles revealed"


And it is this that people like yourself seize on.

My advice: to determine whether information is reliable, seek a reliable source. Anyone can write shorthand 'Plain English' stuff anonymously on a webpage but do seek out the original - accredited - source for yourself instead of spreading false information that the cause of the Luton Car Park Fire has been concluded when it is still being investigated.


Likewise, do you have a verified source as to the registration number of catsmate's alleged culprit car? No, I thought not!
He's not a Fire Chief as this isn't America.
Since the initial statement there has been confirmation from the fire service that it was a diesel car.
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Old 15th November 2023, 10:27 AM   #538
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Didn't Mark E. Smith (he of The Fall) write a song about this?

This is the 3 Rs
The 3 Rs:
Repetition, repetition, repetition
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Old 15th November 2023, 10:34 AM   #539
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
"Believed to be a diesel car" is the verbatim accredited quote. Learn to understand what was actually said.
It's a quote, but it's certainly not the only quote, and it's the not the quote everyone else is referring to. We know that, you know that too, so why do you waste your time trying and failing to gaslight everyone like this?
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Old 15th November 2023, 10:43 AM   #540
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
A reputable news outlet ...
... is a secondary source. The Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service is a primary source for what the Befordshire Fire and Rescue Service says.

There is no aspect of this trivial concept you can honestly fail to grasp. What conclusion do you think people should draw from your continuing rejection of what they say on their own website?
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Old 15th November 2023, 10:45 AM   #541
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Originally Posted by Andy_Ross View Post
It has been officially confirmed by the fire service that it was a diesel car.
You can read the confirmation on their official website.

As I suspect has already been pointed out on this interminable (and interminably ignorant & ill-informed, on the part of one poster) thread:

It would have taken even an inexpert eye (eg I could have done it myself) no more than a couple of minutes - once the car had cooled down enough to be examined properly - to ascertain with total certainty that

1) there was a sizeable engine under the bonnet (hood) which was clearly the powerplant;

2) the topology of the engine showed clearly that it was a diesel engine rather than a petrol (gasoline) engine; and

3) there was the total absence of either an electric motor or any form of Li-Ion battery cell structure anywhere in the vehicle.

Therefore, it was indeed possible for the Fire Service to be 100% certain, once they'd removed the vehicle to their premises and conducted a proper visual examination as outlined above, that this was a vehicle powered solely by a conventional diesel engine. And that, of course, is precisely what the Fire Service explicitly stated on its own website.

Anything else is either ignorance or obfuscation or both. I suspect both.
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Old 15th November 2023, 10:49 AM   #542
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
"Believed to be a diesel car" is the verbatim accredited quote. Learn to understand what was actually said.
I understand exactly what was said. The problem, for you, is that I can also understand the passage of time. So I can understand that someone can say "believed to be a diesel" at an earlier time, and then at a later time, when more evidence has been found, offer confirmation that it was, indeed, a diesel car.

You keep trying to play this game where you pretend that the earlier statement is the only statement that has been made on the matter. But the rest of us all know that this is not the case. And we all know that you know that it is not the case. We can see that you are aware that any earlier ambiguity you might have exploited to deny that it was a diesel car has been eliminated by the subsequent, unequivocal statement that it was a diesel car.

I do not believe that you are genuinely incapable of comprehending that an earlier statement qualified with the modifier "believed" is not meant as a final, unalterable declaration, and that a subsequent statement confirming the earlier suspicion does not supersede it. By ignoring the basic fact of the latter, definitive statement regarding the type of vehicle involved, you are simply confirming what the rest of us already know - that you would rather feign being obtuse than admit error.
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Old 15th November 2023, 10:54 AM   #543
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
... is a secondary source. The Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service is a primary source for what the Befordshire Fire and Rescue Service says.

There is no aspect of this trivial concept you can honestly fail to grasp. What conclusion do you think people should draw from your continuing rejection of what they say on their own website?

It's extraordinary, isn't it? And an insult to a critical thinking forum, for that matter.

The funny thing is that the only noteworthy public information about this incident is the contemporaneous news and SM reports on the fire, and the statements put out by the Fire Service (the most recent of which, of course, confirmed that "Car Zero" was a convention diesel vehicle). And yet this thread has been chasing its tale for weeks now, purely on account of one particular poster's ignorant, ill-informed and specious posts in support of a ludicrous and totally unsupported conspiracy theory.
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Old 15th November 2023, 10:57 AM   #544
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
I understand exactly what was said. The problem, for you, is that I can also understand the passage of time. So I can understand that someone can say "believed to be a diesel" at an earlier time, and then at a later time, when more evidence has been found, offer confirmation that it was, indeed, a diesel car.

You keep trying to play this game where you pretend that the earlier statement is the only statement that has been made on the matter. But the rest of us all know that this is not the case. And we all know that you know that it is not the case. We can see that you are aware that any earlier ambiguity you might have exploited to deny that it was a diesel car has been eliminated by the subsequent, unequivocal statement that it was a diesel car.

I do not believe that you are genuinely incapable of comprehending that an earlier statement qualified with the modifier "believed" is not meant as a final, unalterable declaration, and that a subsequent statement confirming the earlier suspicion does not supersede it. By ignoring the basic fact of the latter, definitive statement regarding the type of vehicle involved, you are simply confirming what the rest of us already know - that you would rather feign being obtuse than admit error.

Ah no. I think Vixen's (ludicrous and unsupported) case is that the later statement is nothing but an imprecise rewriting of the earlier "believed to be a diesel" quote into "confirmed it was a diesel", by some fictional idiot named "Jenny in the comms department".

Total bollocks of course. But here we are......
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Old 15th November 2023, 10:58 AM   #545
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
It's extraordinary, isn't it? And an insult to a critical thinking forum, for that matter.

The funny thing is that the only noteworthy public information about this incident is the contemporaneous news and SM reports on the fire, and the statements put out by the Fire Service (the most recent of which, of course, confirmed that "Car Zero" was a convention diesel vehicle). And yet this thread has been chasing its tale for weeks now, purely on account of one particular poster's ignorant, ill-informed and specious posts in support of a ludicrous and totally unsupported conspiracy theory.
You do NOT want to look at the Estonia thread.....
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Old 15th November 2023, 11:04 AM   #546
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
You do NOT want to look at the Estonia thread.....

Oh I've been there!!

Both threads can be held up as exemplars of how a thread can be totally flushed down the toilet by the actions of a single contributor with no critical thinking skills, zero self-awareness, and subject matters way, way beyond their pay grade.
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Old 15th November 2023, 11:12 AM   #547
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I'm sorry if I'm a bit late to this thread, but has anyone posted this yet?

Quote:
it has been determined that the vehicle that first caught fire was a diesel car
https://www.bedsfire.gov.uk/news/lon...-car-park-fire
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Old 15th November 2023, 11:17 AM   #548
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Originally Posted by commandlinegamer View Post
I'm sorry if I'm a bit late to this thread, but has anyone posted this yet?



https://www.bedsfire.gov.uk/news/lon...-car-park-fire
I think it is important to define "diesel" in this context. Has anyone proven that it is not being defined as "backyard tinkered hybrid EV converted vehiclle"? It's like I've got to do all the thinking here.
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Old 15th November 2023, 11:19 AM   #549
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Originally Posted by commandlinegamer View Post
I'm sorry if I'm a bit late to this thread, but has anyone posted this yet?



https://www.bedsfire.gov.uk/news/lon...-car-park-fire
Yeah, but that was written by some fictional idiot named "Jenny in the comms department".


/Vixen
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Old 15th November 2023, 11:50 AM   #550
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Originally Posted by commandlinegamer View Post
I'm sorry if I'm a bit late to this thread, but has anyone posted this yet?



https://www.bedsfire.gov.uk/news/lon...-car-park-fire
Volume 1, page 7 (the first of many, many times)
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Old 15th November 2023, 12:46 PM   #551
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Stop trying to change the subject. <Drivel snippage>
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Old 15th November 2023, 12:47 PM   #552
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
"Believed to be a diesel car" is the verbatim accredited quote. Learn to understand what was actually said.

You're lying again. The initial vehicle has been confirmed to be a diesel Range Rover.
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Old 15th November 2023, 01:14 PM   #553
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post

You're lying again. The initial vehicle has been confirmed to be a diesel Range Rover.
In the words of one Col. Jessup: YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!
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Old 15th November 2023, 01:23 PM   #554
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
In the words of one Col. Jessup: YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!
I was thinking more of Sideshow Bob - NO TRUTH HANDLER YOU!
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Old 15th November 2023, 01:52 PM   #555
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I think it is important to define "diesel" in this context. Has anyone proven that it is not being defined as "backyard tinkered hybrid EV converted vehiclle"? It's like I've got to do all the thinking here.
Good point. Perhaps the narrative can still be saved.

YouTube video: It's OVER. The Luton Airport Fire just KILLED the EV market. Here's why.

An incendiary title like that and yet only 16k likes since Oct 11. Big Oil are obviously slipping.

Top comments:-

Quote:
Being an engineer I found it very strange that a parked diesel vehicle spontaneously combusted, but if it was a Range Rover hybrid could this be the problem... Perhaps we will never know. But your right Geoff, EV's near any fire are a tremendous risk.

Quote:
I served for over 20 years in the FIre & Rescue Service, during that time I attended more ICE vehicles fires than I care to count, but I do know that...

Fires in ICE vehicles start small and, initially at least, develop relatively slowly, compared to fires in EV batteries which start quite dramatically with little prior warning, develop very quickly to 'thermal runaway' and often eject burning chemical projectiles, somewhat like a firework.

Quote:
Airports have their own 24 hour fire service, they attended immediately and a hand full of them ended up in hospital through smoke inhalation as they couldn't put the fire out. I have seen a large car set on fire on purpose and a single fire crew put it out in minutes, so i can only conclude this was a battery fire that was difficult/impossible to extinguish.

Quote:
I can only begin to imagine the MASSIVE pressure on fire investigators, from Government, to ensure that "it was NOT an EV that caused it... " We need to be SO careful about how this is done.

Quote:
Looking to the BBC for accurate reporting, is like asking Gary Lineker how to stop illegal immigration.

Quote:
Even if it is an EV, the BBC and the authorities will never admit it.

Quote:
My 11yo daughter turned to me when she saw the reports she and said "bet it's an electric car". Lol ... even the kids know..

Quote:
Even if it was a diesel it must have been parked next to an EV.

Quote:
The establishment will go out of their way to play it down if it was one
1k likes!
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Last edited by Roger Ramjets; 15th November 2023 at 01:55 PM.
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Old 16th November 2023, 01:30 AM   #556
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Your talking Edward Learian nonsense doesn't turn it into a conspiracy theory.

Yours already did that.
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Old 16th November 2023, 02:03 AM   #557
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If I take away any lesson from this incident it's that I'm not going to buy a used diesel car, just in case some previous owner has done a shoddy hybrid conversion to it, which then catches fire.

It may literally never have been attempted, but if only anyone had ever done that I think I can imagine how dangerous it might hypothetically be. You can't be too careful.
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Old 16th November 2023, 02:15 AM   #558
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Speaking of which, VIXEN. Do you have an example of a diesel to hybrid conversion? Your two previous attempts to show that it was possible and done were both abysmal failures because they were nothing like what was asked. Will the third time be lucky?
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Old 16th November 2023, 06:20 AM   #559
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I think it would be 'possible'- use a 4wd as the basis, disconnect one axle from the transfer case and fit an electric motor to the disconnected axle,use one axle as the 'ice motor' drive, put it in neutral and use the other axle as the 'EV motor drive'- I could see that being 'possible' but a lot of work, and hauling around the ice motor would make it particularly inefficient as an EV plus it would only work as a 2wd after that of course (matching the EV motor speed to the Ice motor speed on two different axles would be difficult in a 'home brew' rig lol
So not totally impossible, but a LOT of work, and the result would be pretty poor performance wise...
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Old 16th November 2023, 06:37 AM   #560
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Speaking of which, VIXEN. Do you have an example of a diesel to hybrid conversion? Your two previous attempts to show that it was possible and done were both abysmal failures because they were nothing like what was asked. Will the third time be lucky?
The VIXEN technique is to give any old answer, no matter how absurd, then walk away. If pushed later on the subject you'll likely get a 'Answered, scroll back' dismissal.
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