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Old 18th November 2023, 05:49 AM   #641
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Originally Posted by Dabop View Post
I used to drive a tilt tray with a company that had a 'heavy haul rotator' combination towtruck and 'semi crane' often used in accident retrievals/rollovers etc as well as being able to lift and pull broken down large semitrailer prime movers- still with their trailers attached...

When used as a 'crane' it had extending outriggers, and they took a LOT of care on placing and levelling it before deploying the boom- not only does the truck have to be levelled (even a few degrees of 'list' can have dramatic impacts on the stability and weight lifting ability) but you have to assess the surface of what you are lifting from- tar is actually quite a poor surface when it comes to 'point loads' (which is what the outrigger feet represent) and can 'punch through', which can lead to the outriggers sinking and the whole thing possibly tipping over...
And that only had a 12m boom fully extended!!!

I hate to think of what a 64m boom with directed 'water jet' on top adding an axial thrust to the top of a couple of tonnes a minute or more would require to safely set up!!!, even their smaller 32m boom versions (which would only be about halfway up to the fire) is over DOUBLE the height of our boom- you don't just pull up and crank it into the sky LOL
(even then there are 'charts' on the control panels door of the rotator, showing how the angle of lift (both vertical angle ie tilt and the 'swing angle' ie off the back is more stable, directly off the sides almost as much, 45 degrees off any corner greatly reduces stability) and the ground 'load bearing' ability for various surfaces...

All carefully checked before they even start moving a single lever, get it wrong and well- you get to have an 'up close and personal' meeting with the ground...

(I got to run with it quite a few times as the 'offsider' aka 'gopher' (gopher the chains, gopher the shackles, gopher the straps lol), you need a LOT of training and certification before you are allowed to actually operate these things yourself...they preferred to have multiple people onsite when it was being used as a rotator (rather than just a heavy lifter) as more eyes means more safety for all concerned)
ETA not ours, but a very similar one, this one belongs to Ron Pratt who has a youtube channel (LOL- I am subscribed to several 'tow company' channels) for those who don't know what a rotator is...
https://i.postimg.cc/26k8dS9M/maxres...-502222391.jpg
Lifting a school bus on two winches, the car behind it on the aux boom winches, and he has another one at the rear deck as well still free (plus an underlift on the back for towing trucks etc)
That firefighting rig is literally over four times higher (Rons truck isn't at full height or full extension there)

So what is this guy doing here?


https://kalkine.ca/news/general-news...-car-park-fire
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Old 18th November 2023, 05:54 AM   #642
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Originally Posted by W.D.Clinger View Post
This fact is worth repeating:











The fire started in a diesel vehicle, as was confirmed by the Fire Service over a month ago.


That's an interesting mode of argument, but it doesn't really work.

You don't win an argument by getting your critics to roll around on the floor, laughing uncontrollably.
See here as from 1:03:

https://x.com/fairchargeuk/status/17...278983729?s=20

I wonder if you understand what 'confirms' means.
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Old 18th November 2023, 06:01 AM   #643
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
A picture (undated, no time stamp) of a guy in a firelift- shows what????

Nothing about that contracts anything I said- and DOES contradict your (mistaken as usual) implication that within seconds of arrival it would be in action- these high lifts (there is only one in London that could have reached anyway apparently- where is it based???) take TIME to set up safely- and one with such a high reach would take considerably longer to set up a stable base compared to our 'little' 12m one lol which could take anything from 10-15 mins to half an hour in bad conditions (on steeper slopes etc, you might have to do several 'lift and chocks' to get level, alternating from leg to leg...
As usual, your 'fact finding' has literally no resemblance to the reality of using such equipment...

ETA- and one thing to note as well- we don't 'ride' the lift, only pick up loads with it... putting a person on the end increases the requirements by a magnitude of order I would suspect- we drop an already crashed car- big whooptido... drop a fireman or two 65m to the ground (likely killing them) and heads would roll...
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Last edited by Dabop; 18th November 2023 at 06:06 AM.
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Old 18th November 2023, 06:03 AM   #644
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I do understand that different car models have their lithium battery in different places. I understand that a Range Rover Evoque does have its battery near the front passenger.

I am aware that this can change in a different year.

Here is everything we know so far (the correct and full version):

Independent
It has been known for weeks that it was a diesel car.
It was confirmed by the Fire Service on their official website.
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Old 18th November 2023, 06:04 AM   #645
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The full and correct quote is as follows:



https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b2429048.html

Stop spreading misinformation.
It's since been confirmed by the Fire Service that it was a diesel car.
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Old 18th November 2023, 06:05 AM   #646
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post

Here is everything we know so far ...
False.
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Old 18th November 2023, 06:05 AM   #647
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
See above for the full and correct information we have so far.
Your information is out of date.
It's been confirmed that it was a diesel car by the Fire Service.
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Old 18th November 2023, 06:06 AM   #648
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
We are talking about Car Zero.
It was a diesel car, it's been confirmed by the Fire Service
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Old 18th November 2023, 06:08 AM   #649
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
See here as from 1:03:

https://x.com/fairchargeuk/status/17...278983729?s=20

I wonder if you understand what 'confirms' means.
It's been confirmed that it was a diesel car that started the fire.
You can read it on the official website of the Fire Service
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Old 18th November 2023, 06:08 AM   #650
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
The thrill of being an armchair detective is that you're instantly qualified in any subject that comes up, and should be given appropriate credit for it.
Nothing to do with being an armchair detective. It is about the art of debate.

Here's an exercise for everyone. It is about using on your own senses and developing observation skills. Look at each of the following two videos carefully. The first, is the underpass fire in Los Angeles Highway no. 10, and the second, is a drone view of the burnt out Luton Airport car park. Forget anything that has been said about either incident. Just use own your eyes to observe what you see, without evaluation or drawing a conclusion. Just an impartial descriptive narrative of what you see in one or two sentences or paragraphs. Note, in particular, the condition of the concrete and steel in the two different infrastructures.

LA Freeway 10 fire, from about 0:37 onwards.

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/11/13/u...day/index.html

Luton Airport Fire:

https://x.com/BBCLondonNews/status/1...370768473?s=20

Quote:
BBC London
@BBCLondonNews
New drone footage has been released showing the aftermath of a fire at Luton airport car park.

#lutonairport #luton #dronefootage
Part two of the exercise will follow.
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Old 18th November 2023, 06:12 AM   #651
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Originally Posted by Andy_Ross View Post
Your information is out of date.
It's been confirmed that it was a diesel car by the Fire Service.
Your information is a bowdlerization of this information:

Quote:
We dont believe it was an electric vehicle, Andrew Hopkinson, chief fire officer for Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service, said.

Its believed to be diesel-powered, at this stage all subject to verification. And then that fire has quickly and rapidly spread.
Independent
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Old 18th November 2023, 06:16 AM   #652
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That's daytime. The next day, if not later.

As ever, you just post 'some old stuff' in response to a valid point in order to ... what? .... feel better about your previous stupidity?
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Old 18th November 2023, 06:20 AM   #653
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Your information is a bowdlerization of this information:

Independent

LMAO

Witness the futility of pointing out a) the value & reliability of primary-source statements, and b) the arrow of time, when it comes to this particular poster's obstinate refusal to understand both those things.
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Old 18th November 2023, 06:20 AM   #654
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Nothing to do with being an armchair detective. It is about the art of debate.
The art of keeping the pot boiling I think you mean. Stubbornly conspiracist contrarianism is not 'the art of debate'.

Now you want to set us homework as if you were teacher. There must be faint few worse suited to the role. Presumably it's just a provocation you calculate will get more reactions. The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about, right?
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Old 18th November 2023, 06:22 AM   #655
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Your information is a bowdlerization of this information:
Baseless, unsupported conjecture. Rejected.
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Old 18th November 2023, 06:35 AM   #656
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Your information is a bowdlerization of this information:

Quote:
“We don’t believe it was an electric vehicle,” Andrew Hopkinson, chief fire officer for Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service, said.

“It’s believed to be diesel-powered, at this stage all subject to verification. And then that fire has quickly and rapidly spread.”
Independent

That's a porkie, as you well know. Andy's source was the Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service website.

Here's the verification, published by Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue the day after your source was published.

Quote:
The investigation into the cause of the fire continues, but it has been determined that the vehicle that first caught fire was a diesel car.
https://www.bedsfire.gov.uk/news/lon...-car-park-fire
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Old 18th November 2023, 06:39 AM   #657
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Here is everything we know so far (the correct and full version):

Independent

That was published on October 12th. It may be everything you know so far, but your ignorance of anything that's been published since doesn't mean that everyone else is unaware of it.
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Old 18th November 2023, 06:41 AM   #658
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Your information is a bowdlerization of this information:

Independent
Why would you go with an out of date secondary source like an old newspaper story rather than what the Fire Service are saying on their own official website?

Stop ******* trolling
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Old 18th November 2023, 07:03 AM   #659
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Your information is a bowdlerization of this information:

Independent
Jenny the newspaper typist wrote that.
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Old 18th November 2023, 07:16 AM   #660
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The twisting and turning to try and keep her conspiracy theory alive is astounding... rejecting an actual statement from the fire brigade, put up on their website- in order to be able to keep using outdated info from a newspaper article (NOT a primary source by any stretch of the definition) is simply astounding....
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Old 18th November 2023, 07:28 AM   #661
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Originally Posted by Dabop View Post
The twisting and turning to try and keep her conspiracy theory alive is astounding... rejecting an actual statement from the fire brigade, put up on their website- in order to be able to keep using outdated info from a newspaper article (NOT a primary source by any stretch of the definition) is simply astounding....
There was a time when it might have been astounding. There is such an accumulation of these posts in several threads over several years on this forum that now it is merely Vixen. Reality is a concept with which our Vixen is only passingly familiar.
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Old 18th November 2023, 07:34 AM   #662
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
There was a time when it might have been astounding. There is such an accumulation of these posts in several threads over several years on this forum that now it is merely Vixen. Reality is a concept with which our Vixen is only passingly familiar.
Hubris on the other hand...
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Old 18th November 2023, 09:03 AM   #663
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
As for 'guys on the internet', I am quite capable of sifting false fact and opinion from confirmed fact.

Well, no. Evidence from multiple threads over many years demonstrates that you are actually remarkably poor at that very thing.

Which is no great personal shortcoming. We're all good at some things and bad at others. I can't recognize and recall names and faces to save my life, and I'm well below average at the skills required to play basketball. The important thing for everyone is recognizing those weaknesses so that we can compensate and allow for them. I, for instance, don't go looking for invitations to pickup basketball games, let alone try out for professional teams, and when I do play I'm not boastful of my competitive skills as that would lead only to mockery when my actual abilities prove to be far short of even a moderate boast. Likewise, I haven't chosen a career in politics or business dealings that would require well-feigned camaraderie with a large network of acquaintances, competitors, and enemies. ("What was your name again?" doesn't endear.) When I am in a situation where I need to recall faces and names, I know I have to make a significant effort and use any available mnemonic aids. And if someone tells me I've misrecognized them I apologize, rather than insist that my name recognition skills are superior so they must be lying to me about who they really are.

It is a true fact that a fire service's posting of information about a fire on its own website is more authoritative than a newspaper article from an earlier time. Your insistence to the contrary is a falsehood ("false fact") that you have utterly failed to sift out. This is as obvious to everyone as the outcome if I were to play basketball one-on-one against any NCAA college basketball team player.
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Old 18th November 2023, 09:25 AM   #664
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
That was published on October 12th. It may be everything you know so far, but your willful ignorance of anything that's been published since doesn't mean that everyone else is unaware of it.
If I might take the liberty of adding one small interpolated in bold.

Vixen has been made aware of the superseding statement confirming that it was a diesel car on numerous occasions. But it's the turd in the punch bowl - it doesn't support the persona of armchair detective she visualizes for herself, so it must be ignored, to the point of pretending that no one else can see it either. When Vixen accused others of being emotionally invested in their arguments, it was grade A, uncut psychological projection.
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Old 18th November 2023, 09:47 AM   #665
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Originally Posted by Dabop View Post
The twisting and turning to try and keep her conspiracy theory alive is astounding... rejecting an actual statement from the fire brigade, put up on their website- in order to be able to keep using outdated info from a newspaper article (NOT a primary source by any stretch of the definition) is simply astounding....
It's been the same with virtually every conspiracy theorist I've ever encountered, from Apollo denial, to flat earth, to anti-vaxxers, to 5G mind-control nuts. I remember when that ******* who claimed that MMR vaccines caused autism was confronted with the Danish study comparing a quarter of a million people who'd had the MMR vaccine, with a quarter of a million who had not, and detected no statistically significant difference in the rate of autism diagnosis between the two groups. His response was, "I don't give a ****".

Here we've even seen the initial JAQing, meant to establish the CT's impartiality and commitment to truth - a sort of performance piece meant to establish, in real time, their cred as a hard skeptic who is persuaded by the weight of evidence. But they're just acting as their own "stranger" in the crowd, who goes from skeptic to enthusiastic endorser of Dr. Flimflams's Miracle Cream after trying a sample.
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Old 18th November 2023, 09:53 AM   #666
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The full and correct quote is as follows:



https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b2429048.html

Stop spreading misinformation.
Still not grasping linear time then?
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Old 18th November 2023, 09:59 AM   #667
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Also VIXEN, stop being rude and ignoring my questions to you.
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Old 18th November 2023, 10:48 AM   #668
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The full and correct quote is as follows:



https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b2429048.html

Stop spreading misinformation.
What was the type of car that started the fire?
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Old 18th November 2023, 11:36 AM   #669
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
What was the type of car that started the fire?

According to the Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service's official website it was
Quote:
a diesel car
https://www.bedsfire.gov.uk/news/lon...-car-park-fire

What sort of moron would fail to understand that?
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Old 18th November 2023, 12:49 PM   #670
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
According to the Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service's official website it was

https://www.bedsfire.gov.uk/news/lon...-car-park-fire

What sort of moron would fail to understand that?
I am quite sure I know.
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Old 18th November 2023, 01:23 PM   #671
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It's like not being able to grasp linear time. God only knows what kind of idiot you have to be to not understand time's arrow but here we are.
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Old 18th November 2023, 01:29 PM   #672
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
It's like not being able to grasp linear time. God only knows what kind of idiot you have to be to not understand time's arrow but here we are.
Are time machines powered by Li-ion batteries?
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Old 18th November 2023, 02:50 PM   #673
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Again for the willfully stupid.

Quote:
The investigation into the cause of the fire continues, but it has been determined that the vehicle that first caught fire was a diesel car. Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service’s fire investigation team will be working closely with Bedfordshire Police to get a better understanding of what happened on Tuesday evening, and why.
https://www.bedsfire.gov.uk/news/lon...-car-park-fire

And also:
Quote:
Update at 3:30pm:

Two fire engines, an aerial platform and the incident command unit remain at the scene of the fire currently.

Crews continue to work with airport fire service to monitor hot spots.

The fire service can confirm the initial vehicle involved in the fire was a diesel car.

An investigation to determine the cause of the fire is underway.

Main roads around the area are all open.
https://www.bedsfire.gov.uk/news/maj...-luton-airport
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Old 18th November 2023, 04:43 PM   #674
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At a certain point in discussions (and that point here was long ago), it becomes obvious that someone is either 1)immune to logic, and hell-bent on being willfully obtuse, or 2) a troll.

I leave it to you to decide.
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Old 18th November 2023, 05:07 PM   #675
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I do understand that different car models have their lithium battery in different places. I understand that a Range Rover Evoque does have its battery near the front passenger.

I am aware that this can change in a different year.
You have failed to demonstrate any of this.

Quote:
Here is everything we know so far (the correct and full version):

Independent
As many others have pointed out, this is untrue.
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Old 18th November 2023, 05:21 PM   #676
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
Are time machines powered by Li-ion batteries?
Plattnerite or chronos crystals surely?
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Old 18th November 2023, 06:03 PM   #677
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I love the fact that this thread is now in part two of trying to convince Vixen to accept her own starting premise.
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Old 19th November 2023, 08:53 AM   #678
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
LMAO

Witness the futility of pointing out a) the value & reliability of primary-source statements, and b) the arrow of time, when it comes to this particular poster's obstinate refusal to understand both those things.
How is a source reliable if no author is named? It is patently obvious that Beds Fire web page is quoting Andrew Hopkinson in shortened form. IOW it doesn't need to supply a second source because we all know there is just the one source as of today's date. The only update is that some 30-something guy has been arrested and bailed 'as a precaution' on suspicion of criminal damage.
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Old 19th November 2023, 08:56 AM   #679
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
That was published on October 12th. It may be everything you know so far, but your ignorance of anything that's been published since doesn't mean that everyone else is unaware of it.
If I were to upload a webpage stating the car was X, Y or Z, that is not an update, that is me paraphrasing the news report. It might be new information were I to say, 'Officer Smith has now said...'


But it is not.
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Old 19th November 2023, 09:00 AM   #680
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Originally Posted by Dabop View Post
The twisting and turning to try and keep her conspiracy theory alive is astounding... rejecting an actual statement from the fire brigade, put up on their website- in order to be able to keep using outdated info from a newspaper article (NOT a primary source by any stretch of the definition) is simply astounding....
What conspiracy theory? There is none because you have been given very little information about the cause of the fire in the first place. However, you believe it has all been confirmed because of subeditors rephrasing the one and only statement as though it was something fresh. Rather like the the US subeditors proclaiming 'LA Fire No. 10 Underpass Fire was arson'. When at that stage police were only suspecting arson.
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