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Old 19th November 2023, 09:08 AM   #681
Dabop
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YOUR conspiracy theory that the diesel car was 'actually' a lithium powered hybrid...

If YOU upload a website that is a secondary source- the newspaper is a secondary source, a primary source is from the people concerned aka Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service- which put a statement up on THEIR OWN website
Do YOU work for Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service- any statement made by you is a secondary source
Does the newspaper reporter work for Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service- any statement made by them is a secondary source
Does the person who issued the statement on the Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service website work for Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service???
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Old 19th November 2023, 09:09 AM   #682
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Well, no. Evidence from multiple threads over many years demonstrates that you are actually remarkably poor at that very thing.

Which is no great personal shortcoming. We're all good at some things and bad at others. I can't recognize and recall names and faces to save my life, and I'm well below average at the skills required to play basketball. The important thing for everyone is recognizing those weaknesses so that we can compensate and allow for them. I, for instance, don't go looking for invitations to pickup basketball games, let alone try out for professional teams, and when I do play I'm not boastful of my competitive skills as that would lead only to mockery when my actual abilities prove to be far short of even a moderate boast. Likewise, I haven't chosen a career in politics or business dealings that would require well-feigned camaraderie with a large network of acquaintances, competitors, and enemies. ("What was your name again?" doesn't endear.) When I am in a situation where I need to recall faces and names, I know I have to make a significant effort and use any available mnemonic aids. And if someone tells me I've misrecognized them I apologize, rather than insist that my name recognition skills are superior so they must be lying to me about who they really are.

It is a true fact that a fire service's posting of information about a fire on its own website is more authoritative than a newspaper article from an earlier time. Your insistence to the contrary is a falsehood ("false fact") that you have utterly failed to sift out. This is as obvious to everyone as the outcome if I were to play basketball one-on-one against any NCAA college basketball team player.
I have no idea why you need to use extreme examples (remember the Russian commandos that were supposedly inhabiting your shed as your example of 'not all ships sinking are sabotage'?) Then you introduced the Los Angeles Highway no. 10 underpass fire as a supposed example of how 'intense fires happen every day'. I am glad you did because that fire illustrated perfectly how subeditors and even the Governor of California, read the police press statement, 'We suspect arson but are still continuing our enquiries' as absolute confirmation it was Arson. Now, it may well be Arson, based on historical precedent of homeless communities living underneath the arches. The point is, people here would be insisting that 'Governor Newsom said it was Arson, what is it you are not understanding?' One guy would be repeating this claim after every post as if a lie becomes a truth if repeated over and over.

Now then, did you have a chance to do my little exercise of objectively looking at the aftermath of that LA 'intense fire' bridge and ditto with the Luton Airport one? So would you not agree they are not at all of the same magnitude of fire damage?

So maybe it is not me that is 'remarkably poor' at that type of thing.
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Old 19th November 2023, 09:12 AM   #683
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
How is a source reliable if no author is named? It is patently obvious that Beds Fire web page is quoting Andrew Hopkinson in shortened form. IOW it doesn't need to supply a second source because we all know there is just the one source as of today's date. The only update is that some 30-something guy has been arrested and bailed 'as a precaution' on suspicion of criminal damage.
The author is the Fire Service, It's an official communication from the organisation.

It is not quoting any third person.

It has been confirmed, in writing by the Fire Service that it was a diesel car that started the fire.
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Old 19th November 2023, 09:12 AM   #684
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
If I might take the liberty of adding one small interpolated in bold.

Vixen has been made aware of the superseding statement confirming that it was a diesel car on numerous occasions. But it's the turd in the punch bowl - it doesn't support the persona of armchair detective she visualizes for herself, so it must be ignored, to the point of pretending that no one else can see it either. When Vixen accused others of being emotionally invested in their arguments, it was grade A, uncut psychological projection.
I'll say it again, the one and only official press statement as of today is as follows:

Quote:
Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service revealed on Wednesday morning the cause of the blaze was a diesel car.*

“We don’t believe it was an electric vehicle,” Andrew Hopkinson, chief fire officer for Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service, said.

“It’s believed to be diesel-powered, at this stage all subject to verification. And then that fire has quickly and rapidly spread.”
Independent

There have been no further updates since then, other than to announce an arrest and the decision to demolish the car park.

*Note, this is a subeditor's pithy headline.
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Old 19th November 2023, 09:13 AM   #685
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If I were to upload a webpage stating the car was X, Y or Z, that is not an update, that is me paraphrasing the news report. It might be new information were I to say, 'Officer Smith has now said...'


But it is not.
It has been confirmed by the Fire Service that it was a diesel car, the information has been available for weeks.

If it is incorrect why don't you get in touch with the fire service and get it put right?
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Old 19th November 2023, 09:14 AM   #686
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Also VIXEN, stop being rude and ignoring my questions to you.
I am pretty sure another poster answered your question but you can find all of the information you require on this webpage here:


https://www.joinbonnet.com/post/ev-conversion-law-uk
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Old 19th November 2023, 09:19 AM   #687
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I'll say it again, the one and only official press statement as of today is as follows:

Independent

There have been no further updates since then, other than to announce an arrest and the decision to demolish the car park.

*Note, this is a subeditor's pithy headline.
It has been confirmed on their official website that it was a diesel car.
Why does that rank below a press statement given previously?
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Old 19th November 2023, 09:20 AM   #688
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
It is not authored; i.e., it is simply a potted time line summary based on what was already released in the one and only press statement on that particular matter.


You: happy with potted bios. Me: I am interested in the finer detail of what the Fire Report will have to say so I will wait until the investigation is concluded and the report is out.
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Old 19th November 2023, 09:21 AM   #689
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It is not authored; i.e., it is simply a potted time line summary based on what was already released in the one and only press statement on that particular matter.


You: happy with potted bios. Me: I am interested in the finer detail of what the Fire Report will have to say so I will wait until the investigation is concluded and the report is out.
It is not a 'potted time line summary'

It's an official statement by the Fire Service that says it was a diesel car that started the fire.

Lie about it as much as you want but we can all read it.
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Old 19th November 2023, 09:22 AM   #690
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I am pretty sure another poster answered your question but you can find all of the information you require on this webpage here:


https://www.joinbonnet.com/post/ev-conversion-law-uk
How is this source reliable if no author is named? They're just paraphrasing news reports.
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Old 19th November 2023, 09:24 AM   #691
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
How is a source reliable if no author is named? ...
What effort have you made to establish who owns and controls what is published on the website in question? Have you routinely sought out similar information on all the websites you use as sources?

This is pathetic. Your 'argument' is either the absurd "what if the fire service didn't imagine it mattered what they said despite all the conspiracy nuts on social media yelling that it was an EV battery fire?" or the less charitable and full on loony-tunes "what if the fire service are all part of the Big Battery conspiracy?".
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Old 19th November 2023, 09:26 AM   #692
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It is patently obvious ...
No it isn't. Baseless conspiracist conjecture rejected.
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Old 19th November 2023, 09:28 AM   #693
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Originally Posted by Dabop View Post
YOUR conspiracy theory that the diesel car was 'actually' a lithium powered hybrid...

If YOU upload a website that is a secondary source- the newspaper is a secondary source, a primary source is from the people concerned aka Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service- which put a statement up on THEIR OWN website
Do YOU work for Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service- any statement made by you is a secondary source
Does the newspaper reporter work for Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service- any statement made by them is a secondary source
Does the person who issued the statement on the Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service website work for Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service???
This is a primary source: a direct quote from an authorised official:

“We don’t believe it was an electric vehicle,” Andrew Hopkinson, chief fire officer for Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service, said.

“It’s believed to be diesel-powered, at this stage all subject to verification. And then that fire has quickly and rapidly spread.”


A subeditor's news headline is not. Nor is someone summarizing Mr. Hopkinson's words and misleading you into thinking he has since given a fresh press release. If that was the case, it would have been reported by the national press, such as the BBC and the quality news channels. The only news they have reported is the quote above (= the primary source, Mr. Hopkinson by name and rank).
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Old 19th November 2023, 09:32 AM   #694
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
This is a primary source: a direct quote from an authorised official:

“We don’t believe it was an electric vehicle,” Andrew Hopkinson, chief fire officer for Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service, said.

“It’s believed to be diesel-powered, at this stage all subject to verification. And then that fire has quickly and rapidly spread.”


A subeditor's news headline is not. Nor is someone summarizing Mr. Hopkinson's words and misleading you into thinking he has since given a fresh press release. If that was the case, it would have been reported by the national press, such as the BBC and the quality news channels. The only news they have reported is the quote above (= the primary source, Mr. Hopkinson by name and rank).
The official announcement on the fire service website is not a 'subeditor's headline' It is not someone 'summarizing Mr. Hopkinson's words'

It is a separate, official announcement by the Fire Service involved as to the type of car that started the fire.

The fire service website is not a newspaper, it is not the press, quality or otherwise. It is the official online presence of the fire service.

Stop repeating the same lies, people might think you are just a tedious troll.
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Old 19th November 2023, 09:33 AM   #695
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I'll say it again, the one and only official press statement....
Weasel words. Take the unnecessary word "press" out of that carefully misleading claim and it would become a lie. This is how you set out to deceive. The fire service's official statement, published for anyone to read, not filtered through secondary sources like the press, is that a diesel car started the fire, not a hybrid.
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Old 19th November 2023, 09:36 AM   #696
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If I were to upload a webpage stating the car was X, Y or Z, that is not an update, that is me paraphrasing the news report. It might be new information were I to say, 'Officer Smith has now said...'


But it is not.

What we have is your secondary source reporting an oral statement by a representative of Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue, saying that the fire started in a diesel vehicle but qualified by saying that "at this stage [it is] subject to verification". Then, the following day, we have an unqualified statement on the organisation's website saying that it was a diesel vehicle. The later statement supersedes the earlier one. That's how time works.

As I said, what sort of moron could fail to understand this?
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Old 19th November 2023, 09:38 AM   #697
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
How is this source reliable if no author is named? They're just paraphrasing news reports.
It is a 'how to' page. Anyone visiting this page is not looking for a news update on a developing situation. If you want news, go to a news website, such as the BBC.

The primary sources here would be DVLA and Gov.UK. To check whether the information is authentic it is very easy to cross check it with the official DVLA and Gov. UK webpages, as they cite primary law. However, I already provided this poster with those official webpages but he seemed most disgruntled about it for some reason. This webpage might perhaps be a little more user friendly for him and from the POV of a pundit.
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Old 19th November 2023, 09:40 AM   #698
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It was a PRELIMINARY news statement, made only 2 days after the fire...

(Plus your own link says it was a diesel... even at that time...)
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b2429048.html

Quote:
Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service revealed on Wednesday morning the cause of the blaze was a diesel car.

“We don’t believe it was an electric vehicle,” Andrew Hopkinson, chief fire officer for Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service, said.

“It’s believed to be diesel-powered, at this stage all subject to verification. And then that fire has quickly and rapidly spread.”
The ONLY person here pushing the CONSPIRACY THEORY that it was a lithium hybrid is YOU...
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Old 19th November 2023, 09:44 AM   #699
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post

The primary sources here would be DVLA and Gov.UK.
Similarly, the primary source for the Beds Fire and Rescue Service is the Beds Fire and Rescue Service.

Unless that undermines your conspiracy theory, in which case just dismiss it as the office temp messing around or something.

That's how logic works.
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Old 19th November 2023, 09:51 AM   #700
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It is a 'how to' page.
No it isn't. It's advice on rules and regulations, pros+cons and, perhaps, who to approach to get the job done. It isn't about how to do the conversion.

Yet again you posted 'some old stuff' rather than an answer. You do this to protect your ego, I'd guess.
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Old 19th November 2023, 09:54 AM   #701
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
What effort have you made to establish who owns and controls what is published on the website in question? Have you routinely sought out similar information on all the websites you use as sources?

This is pathetic. Your 'argument' is either the absurd "what if the fire service didn't imagine it mattered what they said despite all the conspiracy nuts on social media yelling that it was an EV battery fire?" or the less charitable and full on loony-tunes "what if the fire service are all part of the Big Battery conspiracy?".
Think about it. You are interested in say, a political issue, such as 'Stop the Boats'. One person is happy to simply glance over news headlines. Others might look further into specialist experts' opinions. Puzzled by a seeming lack of information, or conflicting information, you might think, right, I'll look up what the actual laws say about asylum seekers, domestically and as per the UNHCR. It all depends on whether you are looking for actual facts or whether you are happy to just glance at a newspaper headline. Whilst it is understandable most people are happy with a potted summary, that is not to say that someone who is fact-finding should be browbeaten into accepting a layman's version of the issue.

I get that there are three groups of stakeholders hereL
  • the need for the Fire Brigade & Police to reassure the public (allay public anxiety).
  • The political elements who are Pro-EV versus the Big Oil/anti ULEZ groups.
  • the public who want the objective facts of the matter.
The first is public duty; people need to be told that such a fire was likely accidental, there are no arsonists or terrorists about and there is no need to worry about parking next to an EV (because those are the questions the press is asking).

The second is an interesting category and I am sure the conversation between Big Oil and the Environmentalists is a fascinating one but that would be for another thread.

The third group is Joe Public. It wants to know the model and make of the car and what is the story the driver is telling. That information has not been released. It is signally untrue that it has.

Obvs it will take time for the Fire Brigade and Police to ascertain the exact circumstances.
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Old 19th November 2023, 09:55 AM   #702
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Weasel words. Take the unnecessary word "press" out of that carefully misleading claim and it would become a lie. This is how you set out to deceive. The fire service's official statement, published for anyone to read, not filtered through secondary sources like the press, is that a diesel car started the fire, not a hybrid.
A diesel can be a hybrid.
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Old 19th November 2023, 09:58 AM   #703
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
How is this source reliable if no author is named? They're just paraphrasing news reports.
https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-c...actices/syria/

This is a US state department report on Syria. Obviously, it is not reliable since no author is named.

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Old 19th November 2023, 09:59 AM   #704
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Originally Posted by Dabop View Post
It was a PRELIMINARY news statement, made only 2 days after the fire...

(Plus your own link says it was a diesel... even at that time...)
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b2429048.html


The ONLY person here pushing the CONSPIRACY THEORY that it was a lithium hybrid is YOU...
The only place it says it is a diesel is in the headline = written by a subeditor.

It is a précis of what Hopkinson actually said, which is the bit in quotation marks.

Only the bit in quotation marks is a primary, authenticated, named, official source.

All else is someone else's words/interpretation.
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Old 19th November 2023, 10:00 AM   #705
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Nothing to do with being an armchair detective. It is about the art of debate.
Only insofar as that exercise is further about your incessant search for some way to appear smarter and cleverer than your critics. It translates into you pretending to know a lot of things you don't and hiding behind a lot of childish rhetorical dance steps to propagate that for page after page. Or just straight-up lying.

Quote:
It is about using on your own senses and developing observation skills. Look at each of the following two videos carefully. ... Forget anything that has been said about either incident. Just use own your eyes to observe what you see, without evaluation or drawing a conclusion.
This is exactly why armchair detectives are worse than useless. You aren't developing skills. You're simply pretending your existing skills and knowledge are all you need in order to figure out what happened.

It's ignorant, arrogant, wrong, and worse than useless.
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Old 19th November 2023, 10:01 AM   #706
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
A diesel can be a hybrid.
No.
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Old 19th November 2023, 10:02 AM   #707
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I am pretty sure another poster answered your question but you can find all of the information you require on this webpage here:


https://www.joinbonnet.com/post/ev-conversion-law-uk
Failed again. That's conversion to an ev.

Are you incapable of reading or do you think the rest of us are?

ETA apparently the problem lies with you since you claim that's a how to website when it obviously isn't.

If you can't tell the difference between a website discussing regulations when it comes to converting a diesel to a full electric vehicle and a how to website on converting a diesel to a hybrid I'm not sure you're smart enough to be let out of the house on your own.

Of course the real answer is that you're desperately deflecting to protect your fragile ego.

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Old 19th November 2023, 10:10 AM   #708
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Failed again. That's conversion to an ev.

Are you incapable of reading or do you think the rest of us are?

ETA apparently the problem lies with you since you claim that's a how to website when it obviously isn't.

If you can't tell the difference between a website discussing regulations when it comes to converting a diesel to a full electric vehicle and a how to website on converting a diesel to a hybrid I'm not sure you're smart enough to be let out of the house on your own.

Of course the real answer is that you're desperately deflecting to protect your fragile ego.
Is this any better? Eindhoven University of Technology.

https://www.tue.nl/en/news/news-over...-into-a-hybrid

Convert your old diesel into a hybrid
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Old 19th November 2023, 10:11 AM   #709
Dabop
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The only place it says it is a diesel is in the headline = written by a subeditor.

It is a précis of what Hopkinson actually said, which is the bit in quotation marks.

Only the bit in quotation marks is a primary, authenticated, named, official source.

All else is someone else's words/interpretation.
And this is the EXACT quote- which does not say it was a hybrid- diesel or otherwise...

Quote:
“We don’t believe it was an electric vehicle,” Andrew Hopkinson, chief fire officer for Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service, said.

“It’s believed to be diesel-powered, at this stage all subject to verification. And then that fire has quickly and rapidly spread.”
The Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service then verified and confirmed on their own website later that yes it was indeed a diesel vehicle- NOT a hybrid....
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Old 19th November 2023, 10:13 AM   #710
MarkCorrigan
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Is this any better? Eindhoven University of Technology.

https://www.tue.nl/en/news/news-over...-into-a-hybrid

Convert your old diesel into a hybrid
3 year old news story about a company that promises to be able to do that in the future.
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Old 19th November 2023, 10:15 AM   #711
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Is this any better? Eindhoven University of Technology.

https://www.tue.nl/en/news/news-over...-into-a-hybrid

Convert your old diesel into a hybrid
Nope. Failed again. Do read the links you supply, eh?
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Old 19th November 2023, 10:17 AM   #712
Vixen
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-c...actices/syria/

This is a US state department report on Syria. Obviously, it is not reliable since no author is named.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
It cites original sources extensively, as one would expect. For example:
  • (see section 1.g.)
  • The UN Commission of Inquiry for Syria (COI)
  • UN Special Representative of the Secretary-General on Children and Armed Conflict verified
Looks like a well-written and well-sourced document to me, were I looking for some such.
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Old 19th November 2023, 10:17 AM   #713
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
As an objective person who bases conclusions on fact-finding - and this can only be done as a result of an investigation in the case of a major fire - that is correct. That is my position.

I get that people uninterested in a topic are happy to just go along with an early opinion.
Hogwash. You're not an objective person who bases her conclusions on fact-finding. You're one of the more dogged conspiracy theorists on this forum in years, and famously incapable of admitting even the most egregious errors.

Further, the other conspiracy theory you've been plugging on this forum for years requires you to take exactly the opposite position. You've thrown out multiple carefully considered professional studies in favor of early confused news reports, conflicting witness statements, and armchair nuttery. So kindly don't patronize us with your newfound and hypocritical professions of respect for lengthy investigation.

Quote:
As for 'guys on the internet', I am quite capable of sifting false fact and opinion from confirmed fact.
No. Not at all. You rely on self-proclaimed yet obvious cranks like Anders Björkman and infamous anti-Semites. Nowadays you hide the names of these sources because you know how unreliable they are, and defend them with more tortuous rhetoric. You clearly can't tell good information from bad, and you clearly don't care.

Quote:
So yes, I can cope with people having a different opinion from myself. I do not find it threatening.
You can't admit error. On the matter of primes notation, you filled an entire thread pretending you were still somehow right, changing your story several times.

Quote:
I think people find people with an opinion different from their own threatening because they do not have enough confidence in their critical ability...
No. People challenge your claims because you're wrong and they know better than you.

Quote:
so they often see a counter argument as a personal affront but mainly, the problem is they do not understand how debating works or the rules of debate. So they believe the only solution is to demand that a debate be shut down.
No, you're the one complaining about being personally attacked when your claims are challenged.

Kindly stop pretending that you're the only one around here with principles and integrity.
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Old 19th November 2023, 10:18 AM   #714
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Originally Posted by Dabop View Post
And this is the EXACT quote- which does not say it was a hybrid- diesel or otherwise...


The Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service then verified and confirmed on their own website later that yes it was indeed a diesel vehicle- NOT a hybrid....
...citing Hopkinson's press release.
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Old 19th November 2023, 10:18 AM   #715
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I've checked the website of XYZDynamics, the company mentioned in that article. They deal with grond support vehicles for airports primarily and I could find nothing on their website about converting a diesel passenger vehicle into a hybrid.
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Old 19th November 2023, 10:19 AM   #716
MarkCorrigan
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
...citing Hopkinson's press release.
That's a lie. You know it's a lie.

Please demonstrate where they cite it in the confirmation.

I'll wait.
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Old 19th November 2023, 10:20 AM   #717
Dabop
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Is this any better? Eindhoven University of Technology.

https://www.tue.nl/en/news/news-over...-into-a-hybrid

Convert your old diesel into a hybrid
And another swing, and a miss...

Rather than looking at a 'startup blurb' from 2020 why not see if they actually offer this package???
If you had- you would have found they still don't...
https://www.xyzdynamics.nl/



They still do NOT have a 'diesel hybrid conversion' available...
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Old 19th November 2023, 10:20 AM   #718
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Is this any better? Eindhoven University of Technology.

https://www.tue.nl/en/news/news-over...-into-a-hybrid

Convert your old diesel into a hybrid
Seems out of date. If you'll look at the current website for this company, they're offering services only for Ground Service Equipment at airports. Perhaps the service isn't cost-effective for regular passenger vehicles.

In any case, it does not seem to support the claim that passenger SUVs are regularly being converted from diesel ICE to diesel hybrids.
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Old 19th November 2023, 10:22 AM   #719
Dabop
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
...citing Hopkinson's press release.
Your 'evidence' for this???

(oy you down the back- stop laughing!!!)
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Old 19th November 2023, 10:23 AM   #720
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The only place it says it is a diesel is in the headline = written by a subeditor.

It is a précis of what Hopkinson actually said, which is the bit in quotation marks.

Only the bit in quotation marks is a primary, authenticated, named, official source.

All else is someone else's words/interpretation.

Yes, but we no longer need to rely on it, because we have a later statement from the Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service, saying without qualification that it was a diesel vehicle.

What sort of moron would fail to understand that?
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