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Old 19th November 2023, 10:26 AM   #721
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Hogwash. You're not an objective person who bases her conclusions on fact-finding. You're one of the more dogged conspiracy theorists on this forum in years, and famously incapable of admitting even the most egregious errors.

Further, the other conspiracy theory you've been plugging on this forum for years requires you to take exactly the opposite position. You've thrown out multiple carefully considered professional studies in favor of early confused news reports, conflicting witness statements, and armchair nuttery. So kindly don't patronize us with your newfound and hypocritical professions of respect for lengthy investigation.



No. Not at all. You rely on self-proclaimed yet obvious cranks like Anders Björkman and infamous anti-Semites. Nowadays you hide the names of these sources because you know how unreliable they are, and defend them with more tortuous rhetoric. You clearly can't tell good information from bad, and you clearly don't care.



You can't admit error. On the matter of primes notation, you filled an entire thread pretending you were still somehow right, changing your story several times.



No. People challenge your claims because you're wrong and they know better than you.



No, you're the one complaining about being personally attacked when your claims are challenged.

Kindly stop pretending that you're the only one around here with principles and integrity.
It was hardly anything to do with me that someone decided to turn my use of primes into a thread, ditto the issue of whether clothing drags someone down in water. You were the only person who had even heard of the use of primes for time, apart from myself, and people thought the idea that a heavy coat in water won't cause you to immediately sink to the bottom as outrageously preposterous. I was simply stating what I had always known. It was others who went into meltdown over something that was an obvious truth to me and stated quite innocently without knowing that other people would fly off the handle and start start orbiting around the earth.
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Old 19th November 2023, 10:27 AM   #722
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Yes, but we no longer need to rely on it, because we have a later statement from the Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service, saying without qualification that it was a diesel vehicle.

What sort of moron would fail to understand that?
The same kind of 'moron' who thought that the LA no.10 underpass fire was Arson, based on the police saying they suspected arson.
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Old 19th November 2023, 10:28 AM   #723
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
A diesel can be a hybrid.
But we know this one wasn't.
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Old 19th November 2023, 10:28 AM   #724
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This is some class of conceptual art project, isn't it?

I'm struggling to make sense of it any other way.
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Old 19th November 2023, 10:30 AM   #725
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
That's a lie. You know it's a lie.

Please demonstrate where they cite it in the confirmation.

I'll wait.
They don't do they? IOW there had been no further up date.
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Old 19th November 2023, 10:30 AM   #726
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It cites original sources extensively, as one would expect. For example:
  • (see section 1.g.)
  • The UN Commission of Inquiry for Syria (COI)
  • UN Special Representative of the Secretary-General on Children and Armed Conflict verified
Looks like a well-written and well-sourced document to me, were I looking for some such.
Very much of the report is utterly unsourced. For example, consider the following paragraph.

Quote:
The regime’s multiple security branches operated autonomously with wide-ranging and overlapping areas of jurisdiction. Regime-affiliated militias, such as the National Defense Forces, integrated and performed similar roles without defined jurisdiction. Civilian authorities maintained effective control over uniformed military, police, and state security forces, and used the security forces to carry out abuses. There were credible reports that members of the security forces committed numerous abuses, some of which the UN Commission of Inquiry for Syria considered to be war crimes. Civilian authorities possessed limited influence over foreign military or paramilitary organizations operating in the country, including proregime forces such as the Russian armed forces, Iran-affiliated Hizballah, and Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, members of which also committed numerous abuses.
Not a single source, no listed author. Shall we presume that this is utterly unofficial, just a "subeditor" summarizing a real official and perhaps misleading us in the process? Or shall we assume that this is the official position of the State Department?

Similarly, consider those lawyers that you think have placed limits on what the fire chief says. Do they not place similar limits on the official website? Why not? Is there some regulation that simplified English is more important than legal concerns, so that the fire chief has to use caveats when describing the findings regarding vehicle zero, but the website does not?

Does the fire chief ignore the website when it misrepresents the official position?
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Old 19th November 2023, 10:33 AM   #727
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
...citing Hopkinson's press release.
There is no such citation. Try reading it again (?).
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Old 19th November 2023, 10:35 AM   #728
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The same kind of 'moron' who thought that the LA no.10 underpass fire was Arson, based on the police saying they suspected arson.

Do you not understand that an unqualified statement by Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue supersedes an earlier provisional statement by one of their representatives?
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Last edited by Mojo; 19th November 2023 at 10:38 AM.
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Old 19th November 2023, 10:35 AM   #729
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
They don't do they? IOW there had been no further up date.
What would you expect them to say that's different from what the do say, which is to confirm it was diesel?

What form of words would convince you that they mean what they are actually saying?
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Old 19th November 2023, 10:37 AM   #730
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Very much of the report is utterly unsourced. For example, consider the following paragraph.



Not a single source, no listed author. Shall we presume that this is utterly unofficial, just a "subeditor" summarizing a real official and perhaps misleading us in the process? Or shall we assume that this is the official position of the State Department?

Similarly, consider those lawyers that you think have placed limits on what the fire chief says. Do they not place similar limits on the official website? Why not? Is there some regulation that simplified English is more important than legal concerns, so that the fire chief has to use caveats when describing the findings regarding vehicle zero, but the website does not?

Does the fire chief ignore the website when it misrepresents the official position?
As I said before, it is not a news website. It is very obvious to me that whoever wrote that was summarising what Hopkinson said. I can't see that the BBC, ITV, Telegraph, Times or Independent have issued any further update than the one Hopkinson gave. When a news update is issued by the police or the Fire Brigade, it would be as a press release to all relevant news agencies, not just the one information webpage. Show me where the BBC has reported this supposed update. I challenge you.
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Old 19th November 2023, 10:38 AM   #731
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
What would you expect them to say that's different from what the do say, which is to confirm it was diesel?

What form of words would convince you that they mean what they are actually saying?
The usual press release to all news outlets.
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Old 19th November 2023, 10:39 AM   #732
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
They don't do they?
No, so why claim they did?
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
IOW there had been no further up date.
No. Just...no. They don't have to reference the previous statement to supersede it. What nonsense claim is this?
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Old 19th November 2023, 10:42 AM   #733
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Originally Posted by Andy_Ross View Post
It is not a 'potted time line summary'

It's an official statement by the Fire Service that says it was a diesel car that started the fire.

Lie about it as much as you want but we can all read it.
Read it, yes. But there is one in this thread who cannot comprehend.
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Old 19th November 2023, 10:45 AM   #734
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It was hardly anything to do with me that someone decided to turn my use of primes...
Irrelevant. The picture you wish to paint of your investigative and analytical prowess is as inaccurate and self-serving as all your other contributions. Your infamous inability to admit error is just one example of that hypocrisy, so come down off your high horse.

In this case we have reliable early information that disputes your desired conspiracy belief. Therefore you want to kick the can down the road. In other cases the results of careful investigation disputes your desired conspiracy belief, so you throw it out and reach out to unreliable sources that tell you want you want to hear. Your filter is not based on knowledge, analysis, and fact-finding; it's based on what conspiracy hay you can make of it.
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Old 19th November 2023, 11:06 AM   #735
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Think about it. You are interested in say, a political issue, such as 'Stop the Boats'. One person is happy to simply glance over news headlines. Others might look further into specialist experts' opinions. Puzzled by a seeming lack of information, or conflicting information, you might think, right, I'll look up what the actual laws say about asylum seekers, domestically and as per the UNHCR. It all depends on whether you are looking for actual facts or whether you are happy to just glance at a newspaper headline. Whilst it is understandable most people are happy with a potted summary, that is not to say that someone who is fact-finding should be browbeaten into accepting a layman's version of the issue.

I get that there are three groups of stakeholders hereL
  • the need for the Fire Brigade & Police to reassure the public (allay public anxiety).
  • The political elements who are Pro-EV versus the Big Oil/anti ULEZ groups.
  • the public who want the objective facts of the matter.
The first is public duty; people need to be told that such a fire was likely accidental, there are no arsonists or terrorists about and there is no need to worry about parking next to an EV (because those are the questions the press is asking).

The second is an interesting category and I am sure the conversation between Big Oil and the Environmentalists is a fascinating one but that would be for another thread.

The third group is Joe Public. It wants to know the model and make of the car and what is the story the driver is telling. That information has not been released. It is signally untrue that it has.

Obvs it will take time for the Fire Brigade and Police to ascertain the exact circumstances.
It has already been confirmed by the Fire Service in a statement on their official website that it was a diesel car that started the fire.
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Old 19th November 2023, 11:07 AM   #736
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
A diesel can be a hybrid.
In which case the statement by the fire service on their official website would say it was a hybrid. It doesn't say that, it says unequivocally that it was a diesel car.
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Old 19th November 2023, 11:09 AM   #737
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The only place it says it is a diesel is in the headline = written by a subeditor.

It is a précis of what Hopkinson actually said, which is the bit in quotation marks.

Only the bit in quotation marks is a primary, authenticated, named, official source.

All else is someone else's words/interpretation.
It is not a headline written by a 'subeditor'.
It is not someone else's words or interpretation.

It is an official statement by the Fire Service, on their official website involved that it was a diesel car that started the fire.
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Old 19th November 2023, 11:10 AM   #738
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It cites original sources extensively, as one would expect. For example:
  • (see section 1.g.)
  • The UN Commission of Inquiry for Syria (COI)
  • UN Special Representative of the Secretary-General on Children and Armed Conflict verified
Looks like a well-written and well-sourced document to me, were I looking for some such.
Like the one on the fire service website that states unequivocally that it was a diesel car that started the fire.
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Old 19th November 2023, 11:11 AM   #739
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
...citing Hopkinson's press release.
Again you repeat the same deliberate lie.

It is not repeating anyone's press release.

It is a separate, official statement by the Fire Service on their official website that the car that started the fire was a diesel.
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Old 19th November 2023, 11:14 AM   #740
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
As I said before, it is not a news website. It is very obvious to me that whoever wrote that was summarising what Hopkinson said. I can't see that the BBC, ITV, Telegraph, Times or Independent have issued any further update than the one Hopkinson gave. When a news update is issued by the police or the Fire Brigade, it would be as a press release to all relevant news agencies, not just the one information webpage. Show me where the BBC has reported this supposed update. I challenge you.
Why do you need a secondary source like the BBC when you can read the primary source for yourself?

Why should anyone take what the BBC says over the actual fire service involved?
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Old 19th November 2023, 11:15 AM   #741
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The usual press release to all news outlets.
They have made an official announcement on their own official website.

Why do you have to wait for the BBC to give you a second hand report of it?
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Old 19th November 2023, 11:21 AM   #742
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It is not authored; i.e., it is simply a potted time line summary based on what was already released in the one and only press statement on that particular matter.


You: happy with potted bios. Me: I am interested in the finer detail of what the Fire Report will have to say so I will wait until the investigation is concluded and the report is out.

Bollocks. You're spew conspiratorial lies again.
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Old 19th November 2023, 11:23 AM   #743
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
No it isn't. Baseless conspiracist conjecture rejected.
"Patently obvious" is an excellent example of what Pratchett called 'wallpaper words', trying to hide a gaping hole in the actual argument.
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Old 19th November 2023, 11:23 AM   #744
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
...citing Hopkinson's press release.

Can you provide a link to Hopkinson's press release, please?
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Old 19th November 2023, 11:23 AM   #745
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The usual press release to all news outlets.
How do you know that such a press release wasn't sent out, but wasn't reported because it wasn't news? Are you on the mailing list for press releases from the Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service?

The information was certainly disseminated on the official website, which carries more weight than a second-hand publication of a press report.
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Old 19th November 2023, 11:24 AM   #746
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
A diesel can be a hybrid.
The one that started the Luton Airport fire wasn't a hybrid.
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Old 19th November 2023, 11:25 AM   #747
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
...citing Hopkinson's press release.
Your source for this?

Remember:
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I never make anything up. All of my comments are sourced, unless I state 'IMV'.
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Old 19th November 2023, 11:37 AM   #748
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
As I said before, it is not a news website. It is very obvious to me that whoever wrote that was summarising what Hopkinson said. I can't see that the BBC, ITV, Telegraph, Times or Independent have issued any further update than the one Hopkinson gave. When a news update is issued by the police or the Fire Brigade, it would be as a press release to all relevant news agencies, not just the one information webpage. Show me where the BBC has reported this supposed update. I challenge you.
Why should the BBC have an article saying that the assessment it was a diesel vehicle has gone from "pending verification"[1] to "confirmed"? It's not much of a change.

Nor does every change like that generate a press release as far as I know. There's certainly no requirement they do so. To be honest, this isn't a particularly interesting or important story. It's a bitch for those who had cars in the structure and it's gained some odd attention from some who doubt the official story so far, but it's not something that most folk are paying attention to.

I'm sure I wouldn't have learned of the collapse at all were it not for this thread. Of course, those in the UK are a lot more likely to know about it, but this notion that national news organizations would publish articles saying that the vehicle type has moved from "very probable" to "confirmed" is just silly.

[1] Probably not his exact words, despite my use of quotation marks.
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Old 19th November 2023, 11:42 AM   #749
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
As I said before, it is not a news website.
Correct. Instead, it's a primary source.

Quote:
It is very obvious to me that whoever wrote that was summarising what Hopkinson said.
It literally doesn't matter what you want to read into the statement. It's primary source that disputes your claim.

Quote:
Show me where the BBC has reported this supposed update. I challenge you.
A primary source doesn't need repetition in a secondary source with editorial discretion in order to achieve authority. The fire department is the authority. Their web site is the means of publication. The BBC is irrelevant.
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Old 19th November 2023, 11:49 AM   #750
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Can you provide a link to Hopkinson's press release, please?
Here's Reuters, BBC and ITV. You'll find all of the papers and news outlets say the same thing.

https://www.reuters.com/article/brit...idINS8N38X0IN/

https://www.itv.com/news/anglia/2023...-car-park-fire

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-...herts-67073446

You do know how the news works, I take it?
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Old 19th November 2023, 11:53 AM   #751
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Why should the BBC have an article saying that the assessment it was a diesel vehicle has gone from "pending verification"[1] to "confirmed"? It's not much of a change.

Nor does every change like that generate a press release as far as I know. There's certainly no requirement they do so. To be honest, this isn't a particularly interesting or important story. It's a bitch for those who had cars in the structure and it's gained some odd attention from some who doubt the official story so far, but it's not something that most folk are paying attention to.

I'm sure I wouldn't have learned of the collapse at all were it not for this thread. Of course, those in the UK are a lot more likely to know about it, but this notion that national news organizations would publish articles saying that the vehicle type has moved from "very probable" to "confirmed" is just silly.

[1] Probably not his exact words, despite my use of quotation marks.
Citation please, of the BBC article you refer to.


I agree the argument is silly but I disagree that the press would not have bothered to report an update saying the vehicle had now been examined and its status confirmed.
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Old 19th November 2023, 11:53 AM   #752
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Correct. Instead, it's a primary source.



It literally doesn't matter what you want to read into the statement. It's primary source that disputes your claim.



A primary source doesn't need repetition in a secondary source with editorial discretion in order to achieve authority. The fire department is the authority. Their web site is the means of publication. The BBC is irrelevant.

Quoted to give a second chance at comprehension.
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Old 19th November 2023, 12:00 PM   #753
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Before we go on to the next part of my exercise in 'trusting your own eyes', let's try this.


Look at the following pictures in turn and without making any value judgements or conclusions, make an impartial descriptive and objective observation on what you see in each. Describe:
  • the colour of the flames in detail
  • the colour of the smoke emanating from the flames.
  • the location of the flames in relation to the car.
  • The direction of the flames.


florida by Username Vixen, on Flickr

penrose nsw by Username Vixen, on Flickr

ev tesla fire by Username Vixen, on Flickr

front by Username Vixen, on Flickr
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Old 19th November 2023, 12:08 PM   #754
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Here's Reuters, BBC and ITV. You'll find all of the papers and news outlets say the same thing.

https://www.reuters.com/article/brit...idINS8N38X0IN/

https://www.itv.com/news/anglia/2023...-car-park-fire

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-...herts-67073446

You do know how the news works, I take it?
So lots of secondary sources.

Why not read the primary source?

It says on the official website of the fire service that it was a diesel car that started the fire.

Why would you rely on the press rather than the people that actually fought the fire?
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Old 19th November 2023, 12:09 PM   #755
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Citation please, of the BBC article you refer to.


I agree the argument is silly but I disagree that the press would not have bothered to report an update saying the vehicle had now been examined and its status confirmed.
It doesn't matter what the press report when the fire service have put tout an official statement on their official website that says it was a diesel car that started the fire.
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Old 19th November 2023, 12:10 PM   #756
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Citation please, of the BBC article you refer to.
I did not refer to any BBC article. You sure do get easily confused.

Quote:
I agree the argument is silly but I disagree that the press would not have bothered to report an update saying the vehicle had now been examined and its status confirmed.
Ah, so let's see if I understand your argument.
  • All important developments will be announced via press release and reported by the press.
  • Were the assessment of the vehicle as a diesel ICE to move from "pending final investigation" to "confirmed", this would be an important development.
  • There has been no report of the confirmation in the press.
  • Hence, the assessment is still not confirmed.
  • Hence, the announcement that it has been confirmed on the website must be in error.
Is this roughly your argument?
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Old 19th November 2023, 12:11 PM   #757
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Before we go on to the next part of my exercise in 'trusting your own eyes', let's try this.


Look at the following pictures in turn and without making any value judgements or conclusions, make an impartial descriptive and objective observation on what you see in each. Describe:
  • the colour of the flames in detail
  • the colour of the smoke emanating from the flames.
  • the location of the flames in relation to the car.
  • The direction of the flames.


https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...8ca04869b0.jpgflorida by Username Vixen, on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...e172386c88.jpgpenrose nsw by Username Vixen, on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...7c2918c76d.jpgev tesla fire by Username Vixen, on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...0165dfd981.jpgfront by Username Vixen, on Flickr
Sensor overloaded by the brightness.

It doesn't matter anyway, the fire service have confirmed that it was a diesel car that started the fire.
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Old 19th November 2023, 12:11 PM   #758
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Here's Reuters, BBC and ITV. You'll find all of the papers and news outlets say the same thing.

https://www.reuters.com/article/brit...idINS8N38X0IN/

https://www.itv.com/news/anglia/2023...-car-park-fire

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-...herts-67073446

You do know how the news works, I take it?

Yes. None of those is a link to a press release, they are all news sources reporting what someone has said.

Can you provide a link to Hopkinson's press release, please?
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Old 19th November 2023, 12:20 PM   #759
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OK, given the issues Vixen has previously seemed to have with memory, I suppose I'd better provide a reminder of how we got here:
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
...citing Hopkinson's press release.
Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Can you provide a link to Hopkinson's press release, please?
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Here's Reuters, BBC and ITV. You'll find all of the papers and news outlets say the same thing.

https://www.reuters.com/article/brit...idINS8N38X0IN/

https://www.itv.com/news/anglia/2023...-car-park-fire

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-...herts-67073446

You do know how the news works, I take it?
Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Yes. None of those is a link to a press release, they are all news sources reporting what someone has said.

Can you provide a link to Hopkinson's press release, please?

Link, please?
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Old 19th November 2023, 12:24 PM   #760
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We can add "What is a press release" and "What are quoted words from a news conference given to journalists" to the gigantically long list of things that Vixen does not understand.


Meanwhile, back to the embarrassing Gish Gallop........
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