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Old 19th November 2023, 12:25 PM   #761
phiwum
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Before we go on to the next part of my exercise in 'trusting your own eyes', let's try this.


Look at the following pictures in turn and without making any value judgements or conclusions, make an impartial descriptive and objective observation on what you see in each. Describe:
  • the colour of the flames in detail
  • the colour of the smoke emanating from the flames.
  • the location of the flames in relation to the car.
  • The direction of the flames.
Oh, I want to try!



How's this one? Smoke similar to first picture. Admittedly, the flames are a bit less yellow, but the location of the flames is the front of the vehicle, just like your second and fourth photos. Being flames, they go up, just like in your first photo quite clearly.



Here
, on the other hand, is a video with quite dark smoke, no yellow flame to speak of, hard to say where the flame is, though it doesn't seem low. I won't be coy. While the previous image was a diesel fire, this one is an EV battery fire.

But I'm sure you could tell just by glancing at the picture.

Last edited by phiwum; 19th November 2023 at 12:27 PM.
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Old 19th November 2023, 01:02 PM   #762
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Before we go on to the next part of my exercise in 'trusting your own eyes', let's try this.


Look at the following pictures in turn and without making any value judgements or conclusions, make an impartial descriptive and objective observation on what you see in each. Describe:
  • the colour of the flames in detail
  • the colour of the smoke emanating from the flames.
  • the location of the flames in relation to the car.
  • The direction of the flames.
Congratulations on choosing four photos shot in four completely different lighting conditions, making them useless for any sort of comparison of objective qualities of the color of the flames and smoke. It seems like a "scientists" should know something about controls.

You're wasting your investigative talents. With analysis skills like yours, you should be applying yourself to the really big hoaxes, like the Apollo landings, or the earth being spherical.
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Old 19th November 2023, 01:07 PM   #763
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Before we go on to the next part of my exercise in 'trusting your own eyes'…
You misspelled “Pretending I know what I’m talking about.” As usual you simply pretend your uninformed intuition substitutes for fact.
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Old 19th November 2023, 01:15 PM   #764
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Oh look, Vixen is running away like a coward from the points people are raising and pretending to be a teacher again.

Quelle suprise.
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Old 19th November 2023, 01:18 PM   #765
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Old 19th November 2023, 01:19 PM   #766
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I was thinking more of There's a Guy Works Down the Chip Shop Swears He's Elvis.
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Old 19th November 2023, 01:27 PM   #767
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
"You can't hide your lyin' eyes
And your smile is a thin disguise
I thought by now you'd realize
There ain't no way to hide your lying eyes."
/Eagles

As Chico dressed as Groucho said "Who ya gonna believe, me or your own eyes?"
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Old 19th November 2023, 02:49 PM   #768
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Think about it. <blah, blah snipped for brevity>
Response doesn't address the question, as so often.

Your problem here is not that others haven't thought about it.
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Old 19th November 2023, 02:51 PM   #769
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
A diesel can be a hybrid.
Not when the purpose of the description is to distinguish the specific difference. As it was in this case.
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Old 19th November 2023, 02:57 PM   #770
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I can't wait till the fire service determines what kind of vehicle the fire originated from. It'll save tertrabytes of storage from this discussion and possibly reverse global warming due to less electrical consumption.
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Old 19th November 2023, 03:06 PM   #771
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Is this any better? Eindhoven University of Technology.

https://www.tue.nl/en/news/news-over...-into-a-hybrid

Convert your old diesel into a hybrid
An old story about university project working with a commercial concern, XYZ Dynamics, to try to introduce a hybrid conversion for commercial vehicles. At the time of writing the project appeared to consist of control software for an as yet unbuilt drivetrain. Four years later the product is not mentioned on the company website.

Do you imagine that might be a product the owner of the diesel car fitted to his vehicle?

Last edited by Jack by the hedge; 19th November 2023 at 03:52 PM.
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Old 19th November 2023, 03:08 PM   #772
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I can't wait till the fire service determines what kind of vehicle the fire originated from. It'll save tertrabytes of storage from this discussion and possibly reverse global warming due to less electrical consumption.
It will do nothing of the sort. Our resident CTist will just continue to drone on and on and....

ETA just so I don't look too stupid - yes, I know that the type of vehicle is determined beyond any doubt.
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Last edited by Steve; 19th November 2023 at 03:10 PM.
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Old 19th November 2023, 03:12 PM   #773
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
...citing Hopkinson's press release.
Clearly not. Pure invention by you. Rejected again.
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Old 19th November 2023, 03:16 PM   #774
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
It will do nothing of the sort. Our resident CTist will just continue to drone on and on and....

ETA just so I don't look too stupid - yes, I know that the type of vehicle is determined beyond any doubt.
Pretty selfish of you to keep that information to yourself, if you don't mind my saying.
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Old 19th November 2023, 03:17 PM   #775
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It was hardly anything to do with me that someone decided to turn my use of primes into a thread...
Nobody decided to turn it into the protracted silly digression it became. The only thing which kept it going beyond a couple of posts was your hilarious twisting and wriggling to avoid admitting you were simply wrong.
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Old 19th November 2023, 03:21 PM   #776
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I've never once seen anyone so utterly unable to admit error. It's bizarre.
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Old 19th November 2023, 03:24 PM   #777
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
They don't do they? IOW there had been no further up date.
More weasel words from you.

A statement updating their previous one gets handwaved away by you as "no further update" to the press statement, as it was not a statement to the press.

You invent a spurious condition to permit yourself to pretend your conspiracy dream is still alive. No. It shuffled off this mortal coil a month ago.
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Old 19th November 2023, 03:27 PM   #778
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It is very obvious to me ...
Perhaps there is someone else there who could explain reality to you.
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Old 19th November 2023, 03:32 PM   #779
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The usual press release to all news outlets.
What "usual press release" are you talking about? The initial statement you cleave to was a live statement made to the press on-site. It was not a press release. (Jenny from accounts does those. Didn't you know?)

You're making up a spurious condition. A hoop you insist they jump through. You're just playing Simon Says and it's frankly stupid.
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Old 19th November 2023, 03:42 PM   #780
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You do know how the news works, I take it?
... asked the person who fails to notice the difference between a press conference and a press release.

Do we now get 20 pages about how you're not wrong about that either?

Last edited by Jack by the hedge; 19th November 2023 at 03:55 PM.
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Old 19th November 2023, 03:48 PM   #781
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Why should the BBC have an article saying that ...
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Citation please, of the BBC article you refer to.
Reading comprehension? We don' need no steenkin' reading comprehension.
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Old 19th November 2023, 04:05 PM   #782
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Pretty selfish of you to keep that information to yourself, if you don't mind my saying.
I promised I wouldn't tell. Those who gave me the info want to keep Vixen in suspense.
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Old 19th November 2023, 04:59 PM   #783
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
It shuffled off this mortal coil a month ago.

Until Vixen nailed it to the perch


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Old 19th November 2023, 06:00 PM   #784
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Originally Posted by CompusMentus View Post
Until Vixen nailed it to the perch


Compus
Don't be ridiculous! It's clearly just pining for the fjords.
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Old 20th November 2023, 05:04 AM   #785
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
I've never once seen anyone so utterly unable to admit error. It's bizarre.
Don't you remember the 911 threads? Or whats-his-name, the shroud of Turin crank?
Conspiracy theories are all about ego: the nut strokes his/r ego by believing s/he is special because they can see through to The Truth.


On a related note, an excellent pieCe in The Guardian.
https://www.theguardian.com/business...iesel-vehicles
Quote:
When a fire ripped through a car park at Luton airport last month it set off a round of speculation that an electric vehicle was to blame. The theory was quickly doused by the Bedfordshire fire service, which said the blaze appeared to have started in a diesel car.

Yet the rumour refused to be quelled, spreading on social media like, well, wildfire. Even when these stories are patiently debunked, they come back as zombie myths that refuse to die.
Quote:
In Norway, which has the world’s highest proportion of electric car sales, there are between four and five times more fires in petrol and diesel cars, according to the directorate for social security and emergency preparedness. The Swedish Civil Contingencies Agency this year found that there were 3.8 fires per 100,000 electric or hybrid cars in 2022, compared with 68 fires per 100,000 cars when taking all fuel types into account. However, the latter figures include arson, making comparisons tricky.
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Old 20th November 2023, 05:05 AM   #786
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
Don't be ridiculous! It's clearly just pining for the fjords.
Ah ha!!! The fjords of Norway which has the world’s highest proportion of EV sales.
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Old 20th November 2023, 08:50 AM   #787
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I did not refer to any BBC article. You sure do get easily confused.



Ah, so let's see if I understand your argument.
  • All important developments will be announced via press release and reported by the press.
  • Were the assessment of the vehicle as a diesel ICE to move from "pending final investigation" to "confirmed", this would be an important development.
  • There has been no report of the confirmation in the press.
  • Hence, the assessment is still not confirmed.
  • Hence, the announcement that it has been confirmed on the website must be in error.
Is this roughly your argument?
Re the conclusion: I don't know whether it is in error or on purpose but it is technically incorrect, for whatever reason.
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Old 20th November 2023, 08:53 AM   #788
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Yes. None of those is a link to a press release, they are all news sources reporting what someone has said.

Can you provide a link to Hopkinson's press release, please?
A press release is something that is released...to the press. Unless you are the press you don't get the memo.

Quote:
A press release is an official statement delivered to members of the news media for the purpose of providing information, creating an official statement, or making an announcement directed for public release. Press releases are also considered a primary source, meaning they are original informants for information.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_release
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Old 20th November 2023, 09:01 AM   #789
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
What "usual press release" are you talking about? The initial statement you cleave to was a live statement made to the press on-site. It was not a press release. (Jenny from accounts does those. Didn't you know?)

You're making up a spurious condition. A hoop you insist they jump through. You're just playing Simon Says and it's frankly stupid.
In this digital age, it is not necessary for the world's press to descend on a press conference. It is usually sufficient to have five or six key journalists present and to circulate to bureaux, such as AP, Reuters or ANSA, a digital version of what is to be said. It is rare for a hack these days to even venture out to collect news in the old traditional way. An editor will just hire a 'stringer' (say, in another country or on the other side of the world) to do the leg work for them. One stringer could even supply the same information to several different news outlets. The days of any one newspaper getting a SCOOP are long gone, that is why Andrew Hopkinson, Beds Fire & Rescue Chief, is quoted verbatim with the same phrases in news outlets throughout the world, because they are all reading the same press release and they know this press release is authentic, a primary source and reliable.
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Old 20th November 2023, 09:04 AM   #790
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
... asked the person who fails to notice the difference between a press conference and a press release.

Do we now get 20 pages about how you're not wrong about that either?
A news conference these days is simply to allow a chosen handful of journalists or broadcasters the opportunity to ask questions. In the meantime, all of the other news outlets get the hard copy press release.
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Old 20th November 2023, 09:05 AM   #791
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
A press release is something that is released...to the press. Unless you are the press you don't get the memo.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_release
Er, yes, that is exactly the point Mojo is making. We don't have the press release (if there ever was one, as opposed to a press conference ), but we do have an official statement, on the official website, a primary source.
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Old 20th November 2023, 09:08 AM   #792
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
<snip irrelevance>

On a related note, an excellent pieCe in The Guardian.
https://www.theguardian.com/business...iesel-vehicles
Yes, did you note the final sentence in the first paragraph?:

"When a fire ripped through a car park at Luton airport last month it set off a round of speculation that an electric vehicle was to blame. The theory was quickly doused by the Bedfordshire fire service, which said the blaze appeared to have started in a diesel car."

Not even the GUARDIAN claims 'it has been confirmed' or 'determined', it correctly states this is simply speculation as of this stage and there has been no further updates to this since.
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Old 20th November 2023, 09:14 AM   #793
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Ah ha!!! The fjords of Norway which has the world’s highest proportion of EV sales.
You seem to have the strange perception that the nature of the fire is dependent on statistics. So by your logic, an accident on the M4 motorway at 10:00 this morning was probably caused by a Ford Focus because that is the best selling car in the UK (or whatever it is) when probability theory is neither here nor there as to which car caused that fire.

It is weird and bizarre that all people like yourself can do is bang on about how much safer EV's are than petrol and diesel vehicles and that most fires are caused by petrol or diesel cars. What? What on earth does that have to do with Car Zero in the Luton Airport No. 2 Car Park fire?

If anyone is a conspiracy theorist, it is you.


'They are conspiring against EV's so we have to dream up ridiculous counter-arguments'.
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Old 20th November 2023, 09:18 AM   #794
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Yes, did you note the final sentence in the first paragraph?:

"When a fire ripped through a car park at Luton airport last month it set off a round of speculation that an electric vehicle was to blame. The theory was quickly doused by the Bedfordshire fire service, which said the blaze appeared to have started in a diesel car."

Not even the GUARDIAN claims 'it has been confirmed' or 'determined', it correctly states this is simply speculation as of this stage and there has been no further updates to this since.
Do you think you could stop lying?
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Old 20th November 2023, 09:22 AM   #795
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Not even the GUARDIAN claims 'it has been confirmed' or 'determined', it correctly states this is simply speculation as of this stage and there has been no further updates to this since.
The fire service states unequivocally that it was a diesel car. Why can't you accept that?

The most interesting thing about that piece, to me, is that it confirms the existence of a community (or communities) of conspiracy theorists promoting this nonsense. I'd even wager that most of the fallacious and ignorant claims you've been presenting here are actually sourced from others in that community.

And I take it you don't want to talk about how your photographic "analyses" are useless because there are literally no controls on the various conditions present when each image was recorded. You can tell us nothing about the exact lighting conditions, camera settings, or even the types of cameras used. The only reason you think you can make any empirical comparisons is because you are completely ignorant of photography.
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Old 20th November 2023, 09:22 AM   #796
Vixen
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Do you think you could stop lying?
Stop lying that you know better than the BBC.
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Old 20th November 2023, 09:23 AM   #797
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Vixen, what is a primary source, and what is a secondary source?

Can you answer any of the other questions I've put to you instead of just rudely ignoring me again?

You've still failed to find any proof of diesel to hybrid conversions for example, despite providing three separate websites that did not do that as if they did.
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Old 20th November 2023, 09:29 AM   #798
Vixen
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
The fire service states unequivocally that it was a diesel car. Why can't you accept that?

The most interesting thing about that piece, to me, is that it confirms the existence of a community (or communities) of conspiracy theorists promoting this nonsense. I'd even wager that most of the fallacious and ignorant claims you've been presenting here are actually sourced from others in that community.

And I take it you don't want to talk about how your photographic "analyses" are useless because there are literally no controls on the various conditions present when each image was recorded. You can tell us nothing about the exact lighting conditions, camera settings, or even the types of cameras used. The only reason you think you can make any empirical comparisons is because you are completely ignorant of photography.
'Unequivocally' is your invention.

Look at this video again, remembering what a lithium-ion fire looks like and where located in a vehicle.


YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccF4xOk5ruY

Do you really need a subeditor to tell you what you are looking at?
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Last edited by Vixen; 20th November 2023 at 09:30 AM.
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Old 20th November 2023, 09:34 AM   #799
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Vixen, what is a primary source, and what is a secondary source?

Can you answer any of the other questions I've put to you instead of just rudely ignoring me again?

You've still failed to find any proof of diesel to hybrid conversions for example, despite providing three separate websites that did not do that as if they did.
Wiki is your friend.

Quote:
In journalism, a primary source can be a person with direct knowledge of a situation, or a document written by such a person.[1]

Primary sources are distinguished from secondary sources, which cite, comment on, or build upon primary sources. Generally, accounts written after the fact with the benefit of hindsight are secondary.
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Old 20th November 2023, 10:03 AM   #800
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Yes, did you note the final sentence in the first paragraph?:

"When a fire ripped through a car park at Luton airport last month it set off a round of speculation that an electric vehicle was to blame. The theory was quickly doused by the Bedfordshire fire service, which said the blaze appeared to have started in a diesel car."

Not even the GUARDIAN claims 'it has been confirmed' or 'determined', it correctly states this is simply speculation as of this stage and there has been no further updates to this since.
Just stop with the childish drivel. The car was a diesel Range Rover as we all know.
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