IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 20th November 2023, 10:04 AM   #801
MarkCorrigan
Penultimate Amazing
 
MarkCorrigan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 12,842
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Wiki is your friend.
Jesus christ I wasn't asking because I don't know, I was asking if YOU know.
MarkCorrigan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2023, 10:04 AM   #802
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 30,081
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
<drivel snip>
I have waht is technically known as a "sense of humour", you may be aware of the concept? Albeit obviously only in a theoretical sense....
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2023, 10:15 AM   #803
Steve
Penultimate Amazing
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Sydney Nova Scotia
Posts: 13,744
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
I have waht is technically known as a "sense of humour", you may be aware of the concept? Albeit obviously only in a theoretical sense....
Vixen' awareness of the concept of a sense of humor is equal to Vixen's awareness of the concept of a primary source. Nothing is funny unless the BBC tells her it is.
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2023, 10:18 AM   #804
Foster Zygote
Dental Floss Tycoon
 
Foster Zygote's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 21,350
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
'Unequivocally' is your invention.
No, it isn't. It's an adverb that means 'in a way that leaves no doubt', which is what the official fire service report on the incident does when it states, unequivocally, that the fire started in a diesel vehicle. You're the only one sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting "LALALALAL!" regarding that fact. You're desperately clinging to an earlier statement made before the parking garage had even cooled, because you need it to be a conspiracy to hide the involvement of an electric or electric hybrid vehicle so that you can feel you're too smart to be fooled.

Quote:
Look at this video again, remembering what a lithium-ion fire looks like and where located in a vehicle.
You have yet to establish any parameters for making an empirical analysis of what different kinds of fires would look like in those precise circumstances. All of your armchair photo analysis is absolute ********, for reasons already mentioned. You even tried to claim that an image of the diesel car taken from the front was incorrectly positioned relative to the markings on the ramp, when all it took was a straight piece of paper to prove, through the miracle of perspective, that you were completely wrong. You even mistook the interaction of your own equilibrium and the camera orientation for actual slope of the ramp.
__________________
Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone.
Foster Zygote is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2023, 10:21 AM   #805
Foster Zygote
Dental Floss Tycoon
 
Foster Zygote's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 21,350
Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Jesus christ I wasn't asking because I don't know, I was asking if YOU know.
Well "primary" means "first". So that would be the first people to claim to know there was something fishy going on - the self-identified experts from the field of garage and dealership employment commenting on the Daily Mail site.
__________________
Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone.
Foster Zygote is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2023, 10:46 AM   #806
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 16,273
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
In this digital age...
And here begins what's likely to be 20 pages of Vixen to try to convice everyone she didn't overlook the fact that a press conference is not the same thing as a press release.

I can hardly wait. <sigh>
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2023, 10:47 AM   #807
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,710
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Not even the GUARDIAN claims...
The Guardian is not the authority for such information. If someone wants to employ editorial discretion in their own publication, that's their business. It doesn't change the authority of a primary source. This is basic journalism and basic historical method.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2023, 10:49 AM   #808
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,710
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Stop lying that you know better than the BBC.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Wiki is your friend.
Getting pretty unhinged there, Vixen.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2023, 11:06 AM   #809
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 16,273
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
... Andrew Hopkinson, Beds Fire & Rescue Chief, is quoted verbatim with the same phrases in news outlets throughout the world, because they are all reading the same press release and they know this press release is authentic, a primary source and reliable.
I invite you to review Andrew Hopkinson talking to the press here and ask yourself whether he is reading out a prepared press release and whether key journalists are asking him questions:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...herts-67073446

Blatantly neither of these things is happening.

He is talking off the cuff and simply explaining what happened to the journalists who were present. The tale you are spinning of key journalists asking questions and everyone else getting the printed press release handout is simply a creation of your imagination to protect yourself from any intrusive thoughts that you were indeed in error to conflate what Hopkinson said with a press release.
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2023, 11:16 AM   #810
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 16,273
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Stop lying that you know better than the BBC.
This is absurd. We can read what the fire service says. Straight from the horse's mouth. You're now taking the line that nothing is real unless the BBC tells you it happened.

How many journalists should the BBC dedicate to following and reporting on the minutiae of stories you personally happen to have fixated on?
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2023, 11:40 AM   #811
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nor Flanden
Posts: 38,264
Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Vixen, what is a primary source, and what is a secondary source?

Can you answer any of the other questions I've put to you instead of just rudely ignoring me again?

You've still failed to find any proof of diesel to hybrid conversions for example, despite providing three separate websites that did not do that as if they did.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Wiki is your friend.
Quote:
In journalism, a primary source can be a person with direct knowledge of a situation, or a document written by such a person.[1]

Primary sources are distinguished from secondary sources, which cite, comment on, or build upon primary sources. Generally, accounts written after the fact with the benefit of hindsight are secondary.

So, according to that, which of these is a primary source for statements by the Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service?

a) The Independent newspaper reporting what was said at a press conference, or

b) The Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service website?
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2023, 11:40 AM   #812
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,710
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
'Unequivocally' is your invention.
There's no qualification or equivocation in the statement from the fire department. It's quite correct to characterize it as "unequivocal." You're the one frantically trying to say things like they might have mean a hybrid when they said diesel.

Quote:
Look at this video again...
Do you really need a subeditor to tell you what you are looking at?
The interpretation of photographs and video does indeed require specialized skill and knowledge that you don't appear to have. The misinterpretation of photographic evidence is a big part of many conspiracy theories.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2023, 12:13 PM   #813
Andy_Ross
Penultimate Amazing
 
Andy_Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 46,909
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Re the conclusion: I don't know whether it is in error or on purpose but it is technically incorrect, for whatever reason.
It is not incorrect in any way, it's you that has decided to ignore it so you can keep trolling people because as we know the Fire Service has told us that it was a diesel car that caused the fire.
__________________
Formerly known as Captain Swoop

Last edited by Andy_Ross; 20th November 2023 at 12:15 PM.
Andy_Ross is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2023, 12:14 PM   #814
Andy_Ross
Penultimate Amazing
 
Andy_Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 46,909
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
A press release is something that is released...to the press. Unless you are the press you don't get the memo.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_release
A press release might be a primary source but when the organisation then updates their information the press release is no longer relevant as it is out of date.
Like in this case where the original statement to the press has been superseded by a later announcement that the fire was caused by a diesel.
__________________
Formerly known as Captain Swoop

Last edited by Andy_Ross; 20th November 2023 at 12:15 PM.
Andy_Ross is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2023, 12:50 PM   #815
Andy_Ross
Penultimate Amazing
 
Andy_Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 46,909
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Yes, did you note the final sentence in the first paragraph?:

"When a fire ripped through a car park at Luton airport last month it set off a round of speculation that an electric vehicle was to blame. The theory was quickly doused by the Bedfordshire fire service, which said the blaze appeared to have started in a diesel car."

Not even the GUARDIAN claims 'it has been confirmed' or 'determined', it correctly states this is simply speculation as of this stage and there has been no further updates to this since.
But the fire service involved do claim it was a diesel car that started it.
They have released a statement via their official website.
__________________
Formerly known as Captain Swoop
Andy_Ross is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2023, 12:52 PM   #816
Andy_Ross
Penultimate Amazing
 
Andy_Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 46,909
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Stop lying that you know better than the BBC.
We know better then you at least.

We know that the fire service have confirmed that it was a diesel car that started the fire. You can read it on their official website.

It doesn't matter what the BBC say, they are a secondary source.
__________________
Formerly known as Captain Swoop
Andy_Ross is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2023, 12:53 PM   #817
Disbelief
Illuminator
 
Disbelief's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,300
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
'Unequivocally' is your invention.

Look at this video again, remembering what a lithium-ion fire looks like and where located in a vehicle.


YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccF4xOk5ruY

Do you really need a subeditor to tell you what you are looking at?
You haven't established where the battery would be on a hybrid version and you have no expertise to tell us what a Li-ion fire should look like. And if it was a homemade conversion job, how would you have the first clue on where they put the battery?
__________________
Zensmack (LastChild, Laughing Assassin, RazetheFlag, Wastrel, TruthbyDecree) - Working his way up the sock puppet chain, trying to overtake P'Doh. Or, are they the same?

Quote me where I said conspiracists use evidence. - mchapman
Disbelief is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2023, 12:55 PM   #818
Andy_Ross
Penultimate Amazing
 
Andy_Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 46,909
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
'Unequivocally' is your invention.

Look at this video again, remembering what a lithium-ion fire looks like and where located in a vehicle.


YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccF4xOk5ruY

Do you really need a subeditor to tell you what you are looking at?
It is unequivocal because that is what the fire service tell us. They say it was a diesel car that started the fire. Where is there anything equivocal in their statement?

Where is a 'subeditor' telling us anything? We aren't getting anything from a newspaper or the press. we can read the direct statement of the fire service that it was a diesel car.
__________________
Formerly known as Captain Swoop
Andy_Ross is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2023, 12:56 PM   #819
Andy_Ross
Penultimate Amazing
 
Andy_Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 46,909
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Wiki is your friend.
Yes, we have a primary source, the fire service involved in putting the fire out that it was a diesel car that started it.

We don't need to refer to any secondary sources for this information. No TV channels or newspapers need to be consulted.
__________________
Formerly known as Captain Swoop
Andy_Ross is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2023, 01:28 PM   #820
W.D.Clinger
Philosopher
 
W.D.Clinger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 5,686
Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Do you think you could stop lying?
Why do you ask the only person who doesn't know the answer?
W.D.Clinger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2023, 02:00 PM   #821
MarkCorrigan
Penultimate Amazing
 
MarkCorrigan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 12,842
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Wiki is your friend.
Also I note that you (sort of, vaguely) answered only one of my questions and rudely ignored my others. Again.

Why are you so rude Vixen?
MarkCorrigan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2023, 02:41 PM   #822
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,780
Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
I invite you to review Andrew Hopkinson talking to the press here and ask yourself whether he is reading out a prepared press release and whether key journalists are asking him questions:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...herts-67073446

Blatantly neither of these things is happening.

He is talking off the cuff and simply explaining what happened to the journalists who were present. The tale you are spinning of key journalists asking questions and everyone else getting the printed press release handout is simply a creation of your imagination to protect yourself from any intrusive thoughts that you were indeed in error to conflate what Hopkinson said with a press release.
Mr. Hopkinson had a carefully prepared statement to the various broadcasters and journalists who turned up and this same statement was sent out as a press release.

This is why all of the newspapers and all of the broadcasters all carry the identical exact same quote.
__________________
who claims the soulless
Who speaks for the forgotten dead

~ Danzig

Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2023, 03:04 PM   #823
zooterkin
Nitpicking dilettante
Administrator
 
zooterkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 57,583
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Mr. Hopkinson had a carefully prepared statement to the various broadcasters and journalists who turned up and this same statement was sent out as a press release.

This is why all of the newspapers and all of the broadcasters all carry the identical exact same quote.
Regardless, subsequent to the press conference, that is, for the sake of clarity, after, i.e. later in time, superseding previous information, this unequivocal statement was published on a primary source:
Quote:
it has been determined that the vehicle that first caught fire was a diesel car
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell
Zooterkin is correct Darat
Nerd! Hokulele
Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232
Ezekiel 23:20
zooterkin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2023, 03:08 PM   #824
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,780
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
There's no qualification or equivocation in the statement from the fire department. It's quite correct to characterize it as "unequivocal." You're the one frantically trying to say things like they might have mean a hybrid when they said diesel.



The interpretation of photographs and video does indeed require specialized skill and knowledge that you don't appear to have. The misinterpretation of photographic evidence is a big part of many conspiracy theories.
As I said, it is unauthored and is obviously a short form of what Mr Hopkinson said in his press conference/press release 11 October 2023. There have been no further updates in respect of the details of the fire, other than some 30-something guy has been bailed on suspicion of criminal damage 'as a precaution' (whatever that is supposed to mean). As the Fire Brigade did not fully conquer the fire until about 15:00 and he was speaking as the building was still smouldering it is obviously best opinion than confirmation. Ask yourself why he did not provide the name and make of the vehicle.

As for Full Fact and the person who uploaded the Beds Fire & Rescue webpage, these are people who treat knowledge as though iit was a scarce commodity and they are going to withhold it from you, because they want to teach the anti-EV brigade - as they see it - a lesson by withholding information, indeed averring the opposite information, claiming it was a confirmed diesel and definitely not a mild hybrid diesel of any sort. Possibly they were sick to death of journalists ringing up for information so fobbed them off with a subedited untruth that was not an accurate reflection of what the primary source - Andrew Hopkinson's press statement - but their own words, either because they can't see the words 'at this stage' or 'subject to verification' or because they see themselves as the sentinels of a guarded secret.

It is understandable why nations and states might want to keep certain defence information 'classified' and one can see why people such as Assange and Snowden are forwned upon. OTOH the obsession of keeping knowledge away from the masses epitomises the homily that 'knowledge is power'. As evidenced in the Catholic Church all the way through to C16; all church services were in Latin, which only the educated clergy could understand. The great unwashed hoi-polloi were not to be imparted this precious knowledge. The brouhaha when Wycliffe and later Tyndale translated the New Testament into English - heaven forfend! - now the undeserving masses were in on the hitherto closely guarded knowledge. Even London cab drivers had to have 'the knowledge' to get a black cab licence. Woe betide anyone posing as a cab driver without the knowledge. Massive blackcab road blocks when minicabs and Uber were given the go-ahead.

So now the public aren't allowed to know what make and model the poxy Luton Airport Car Park fire vehicle was because, ah, we have to protect the brand...mustn't let the pig ignorant public have a dim view of hybrids or EV's; gotta protect the Jaguar Range Rover brand and not have people questioning the planned 1m sq m Tata (JLR owners) gigafactory set to produce lithium car batteries.

And people here think 'That's fine, I like that they can't provide basic information because we are only the great unwashed masses who should not ask pesky questions because you know, knowledge belongs to those with power. We don't want Ms Murty's friends at Tata to be out of pocket on our account. Jolly right, too.'
__________________
who claims the soulless
Who speaks for the forgotten dead

~ Danzig

Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2023, 03:11 PM   #825
MarkCorrigan
Penultimate Amazing
 
MarkCorrigan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 12,842
It's only obvious to you. What colour is the sky in your world?
MarkCorrigan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2023, 03:11 PM   #826
Andy_Ross
Penultimate Amazing
 
Andy_Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 46,909
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
As I said, it is unauthored and is obviously a short form of what Mr Hopkinson said in his press conference/press release 11 October 2023. There have been no further updates in respect of the details of the fire, other than some 30-something guy has been bailed on suspicion of criminal damage 'as a precaution' (whatever that is supposed to mean). As the Fire Brigade did not fully conquer the fire until about 15:00 and he was speaking as the building was still smouldering it is obviously best opinion than confirmation. Ask yourself why he did not provide the name and make of the vehicle.

As for Full Fact and the person who uploaded the Beds Fire & Rescue webpage, these are people who treat knowledge as though iit was a scarce commodity and they are going to withhold it from you, because they want to teach the anti-EV brigade - as they see it - a lesson by withholding information, indeed averring the opposite information, claiming it was a confirmed diesel and definitely not a mild hybrid diesel of any sort. Possibly they were sick to death of journalists ringing up for information so fobbed them off with a subedited untruth that was not an accurate reflection of what the primary source - Andrew Hopkinson's press statement - but their own words, either because they can't see the words 'at this stage' or 'subject to verification' or because they see themselves as the sentinels of a guarded secret.

It is understandable why nations and states might want to keep certain defence information 'classified' and one can see why people such as Assange and Snowden are forwned upon. OTOH the obsession of keeping knowledge away from the masses epitomises the homily that 'knowledge is power'. As evidenced in the Catholic Church all the way through to C16; all church services were in Latin, which only the educated clergy could understand. The great unwashed hoi-polloi were not to be imparted this precious knowledge. The brouhaha when Wycliffe and later Tyndale translated the New Testament into English - heaven forfend! - now the undeserving masses were in on the hitherto closely guarded knowledge. Even London cab drivers had to have 'the knowledge' to get a black cab licence. Woe betide anyone posing as a cab driver without the knowledge. Massive blackcab road blocks when minicabs and Uber were given the go-ahead.

So now the public aren't allowed to know what make and model the poxy Luton Airport Car Park fire vehicle was because, ah, we have to protect the brand...mustn't let the pig ignorant public have a dim view of hybrids or EV's; gotta protect the Jaguar Range Rover brand and not have people questioning the planned 1m sq m Tata (JLR owners) gigafactory set to produce lithium car batteries.

And people here think 'That's fine, I like that they can't provide basic information because we are only the great unwashed masses who should not ask pesky questions because you know, knowledge belongs to those with power. We don't want Ms Murty's friends at Tata to be out of pocket on our account. Jolly right, too.'
What's the point of posting all that ******

What do you think you gain by it?

Is being a ******* troll and ******* liar the image you want to cultivate?

The statement is an official one from the fire and rescue service, it is on their official website. It says that the car was a diesel.

Do you think someone made it up? do you think an official announcement on the official website wasn't cleared and written by someone with the authority to do so?

If you think it's wrong have you contacted them to tell them?
__________________
Formerly known as Captain Swoop

Last edited by Andy_Ross; 20th November 2023 at 03:13 PM.
Andy_Ross is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2023, 03:16 PM   #827
wollery
Protected by Samurai Hedgehogs!
 
wollery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 11,258
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
As I said, it is unauthored and is obviously a short form of what Mr Hopkinson said in his press conference/press release 11 October 2023.
Many years ago I was taken to task by my PhD supervisor for stating that something was "clear".

"If," he said, "it is clear, then you don't need to say that it is. If it isn't clear, then you look like an idiot for saying it."

Vixen, it is not obvious that the Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service website statement is a short form of Chief Fire Officer Hopkinson's statement.

That means that your statement that it is obvious makes you look, well, you figure it out.

Quote:
Snipped conspiracy nonsense
__________________
"You're a sick SOB. You know that, Wollery?" - Roadtoad

"Just think how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of them are even stupider!" --George Carlin
wollery is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2023, 03:37 PM   #828
junkshop
Graduate Poster
 
junkshop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Behind you
Posts: 1,947
Having a closer look at the Bedfordshire Fire & Rescue Service website, I came across this press release (originally published on October 11th).

I would draw your attention to the last update, published at 3:30 pm on the 12th (the day before the OP in this ridiculous thread was posted) - particularly the part I have highlighted:

Originally Posted by Bedfordshire Fire & Rescue Service
Update at 3:30pm:

Two fire engines, an aerial platform and the incident command unit remain at the scene of the fire currently.

Crews continue to work with airport fire service to monitor hot spots.

The fire service can confirm the initial vehicle involved in the fire was a diesel car.

An investigation to determine the cause of the fire is underway.

Main roads around the area are all open.

Sounds pretty unequivocal to me, and it's a press release, to boot.
__________________
Hobbyist receipt-keeper, fake cockney Dick Van Dyke cosplayer, and forum boss

Last edited by junkshop; 20th November 2023 at 03:49 PM.
junkshop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2023, 03:47 PM   #829
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,710
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
As I said, it is unauthored...
Irrelevant. Its context is authoritative.

Quote:
...and is obviously a short form...
"Obvious" only to you.

Quote:
There have been no further updates in respect of the details of the fire...
None you recognize. That's the whole issue.

The rest of your post is irrelevant conspiratorial screed.

Last edited by JayUtah; 20th November 2023 at 03:49 PM.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2023, 03:50 PM   #830
phiwum
Penultimate Amazing
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 13,384
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I did not refer to any BBC article. You sure do get easily confused.



Ah, so let's see if I understand your argument.
  1. All important developments will be announced via press release and reported by the press.
  2. Were the assessment of the vehicle as a diesel ICE to move from "pending final investigation" to "confirmed", this would be an important development.
  3. There has been no report of the confirmation in the press.
  4. Hence, the assessment is still not confirmed.
  5. Hence, the announcement that it has been confirmed on the website must be false.
Is this roughly your argument?
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Re the conclusion: I don't know whether it is in error or on purpose but it is technically incorrect, for whatever reason.
Excellent. So now I'll take the above as a presentation of your argument. Note that I've changed the phrase "in error" to the more neutral term "false" here, so whether it was an error or intentionally false, no matter.

Now, the argument appears to be valid (if the premises are true, the conclusion is also true), so we should turn our attention to the unsupported premises, (1), (2) and (3). Far as I know, (3) is not controversial, so let's take it for granted unless we have reason to doubt it later.

(1) seems fairly plausible. Oh, it's possible that (1) is actually false, since it's possible that either the fire officials choose not to announce every important development or the press has moved on from this story and chooses not to publish an announced important development.

But the premise that I find most obviously dubious is (2). I think (2) is false. I don't think the change from "a diesel vehicle pending final investigation" to "confirmed to be a diesel vehicle" is all that significant. Indeed, it would be expected, perfectly run of the mill stuff. Most things which investigators say they believe to be true, subject to verification, turn out to be true, I'd wager. So I don't find it convincing that this move from "subject to verification" to "confirmed" is really important enough to require a press release, nor that it would be important enough that the press would necessarily publish articles about this totally not startling development.

In other words, if (1) is true -- that is, if developments that are important are announced to the press and the press will print stories about such developments, then I think that (2) is false.

Anyway, it's good to see where precisely your reasoning goes awry, isn't it? I eagerly await your entirely off-topic and perplexing reply. Or complete silence. Either one is par for the course, after all.

ETA: Thanks to junkshop, we see that the fire department did indeed include the confirmation in a press release on Oct. 12th -- incidentally, one day before the web page we've been referencing went up. However, far as I know, no media outlets bothered to report the "upgrade" from "subject to verification" to "confirmed". Hence, again, either (1) is false or (2) is false, as I suggested.

Last edited by phiwum; 20th November 2023 at 04:07 PM.
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2023, 03:53 PM   #831
phiwum
Penultimate Amazing
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 13,384
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Mr. Hopkinson had a carefully prepared statement to the various broadcasters and journalists who turned up and this same statement was sent out as a press release.

This is why all of the newspapers and all of the broadcasters all carry the identical exact same quote.
Is the highlighted true? What evidence do you have for this?

Note that, "Well, I reckon they would've done it, wouldn't they?" is pretty ******* weak evidence. I hope you have something better than that.

ETA: Note as well that the fact that broadcasters carry the same quote isn't evidence of a press release either. He said the quote in front of reporters. That's how come they got the same wording. Turns out they wrote down what he said. Clever lads, when you think about it.

Last edited by phiwum; 20th November 2023 at 04:09 PM.
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2023, 03:59 PM   #832
junkshop
Graduate Poster
 
junkshop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Behind you
Posts: 1,947
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Is the highlighted true? What evidence do you have for this?

Note that, "Well, I reckon they would've done it, wouldn't they?" is pretty ******* weak evidence. I hope you have something better than that.
Their press releases are published on their website. Notably, the text of Mr. Hopkins' statement was not.

Vixen is wrong.
__________________
Hobbyist receipt-keeper, fake cockney Dick Van Dyke cosplayer, and forum boss
junkshop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2023, 04:02 PM   #833
phiwum
Penultimate Amazing
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 13,384
Originally Posted by junkshop View Post
Having a closer look at the Bedfordshire Fire & Rescue Service website, I came across this press release (originally published on October 11th).

I would draw your attention to the last update, published at 3:30 pm on the 12th (the day before the OP in this ridiculous thread was posted) - particularly the part I have highlighted:




Sounds pretty unequivocal to me, and it's a press release, to boot.
I don't see the chief's signature on it. Probably whats-her-name from Communications writing simplified English again.
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2023, 05:04 PM   #834
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 16,273
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Mr. Hopkinson had a carefully prepared statement to the various broadcasters and journalists who turned up and this same statement was sent out as a press release.



This is why all of the newspapers and all of the broadcasters all carry the identical exact same quote.
You're quite sure they don't all quote what he said by transcribing it from their recordings, then?

He does quite a good act of pretending to be talking off the cuff rather than reading a prepared statement, don't you think? I'm impressed by his technique. All the extra little umms and ahhs are a nice touch.

How many rehearsals do you think he needed before he could do the whole thing off-script?


Look, this is just ridiculous. He spoke, they recorded him, they transcribed what he said. You're inventing a press release to try to avoid being wrong about an absurdly small detail. It's hilarious but also rather tragic.
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2023, 05:10 PM   #835
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 16,273
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
As for Full Fact and the person who uploaded the Beds Fire & Rescue webpage, these are people who treat knowledge as though iit was a scarce commodity and they are going to withhold it from you, because they want to teach the anti-EV brigade - as they see it - a lesson by withholding information, indeed averring the opposite information...'
<edited before it gets moderated>

Look at the crazy world you have to create to maintain the fiction that you are not wrong about this diesel car. It's absurd.

Last edited by Jack by the hedge; 20th November 2023 at 05:21 PM.
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2023, 09:39 PM   #836
W.D.Clinger
Philosopher
 
W.D.Clinger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 5,686
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
...mustn't let the pig ignorant public have a dim view of hybrids or EV's

Actually, there is no reason to think they care whether Vixen has a dim view of hybrids or EVs.
W.D.Clinger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st November 2023, 02:27 AM   #837
zooterkin
Nitpicking dilettante
Administrator
 
zooterkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 57,583
Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
What would you expect them to say that's different from what they do say, which is to confirm it was diesel?

What form of words would convince you that they mean what they are actually saying?
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The usual press release to all news outlets.
Well, here it is, thank you to junkshop:

Originally Posted by junkshop View Post
Having a closer look at the Bedfordshire Fire & Rescue Service website, I came across this press release (originally published on October 11th).

I would draw your attention to the last update, published at 3:30 pm on the 12th (the day before the OP in this ridiculous thread was posted) - particularly the part I have highlighted:

Originally Posted by Bedfordshire Fire & Rescue Service
Update at 3:30pm:

Two fire engines, an aerial platform and the incident command unit remain at the scene of the fire currently.

Crews continue to work with airport fire service to monitor hot spots.

The fire service can confirm the initial vehicle involved in the fire was a diesel car.

An investigation to determine the cause of the fire is underway.

Main roads around the area are all open.

Sounds pretty unequivocal to me, and it's a press release, to boot.

Quod erat demonstrandum, mon ami, kemo sabe?
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell
Zooterkin is correct Darat
Nerd! Hokulele
Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232
Ezekiel 23:20

Last edited by zooterkin; 21st November 2023 at 11:23 AM.
zooterkin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st November 2023, 02:33 AM   #838
jeremyp
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
Posts: 3,925
I have just come back to this thread and in my absence, twelve pages have appeared.

I have not read any of the twelve new pages.

In light of the above, please accept my apologies if this has already been discussed but:

What advantage accrues to Bedfordshire Fire Service by lying about the type of car that started the fire?

Bear in mind that EV fires are particularly dangerous to deal with and very hard to put out. Why would the people who would be putting their own lives in danger try to cover them up?
jeremyp is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st November 2023, 03:39 AM   #839
Dabop
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Oz
Posts: 1,118
Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
I have just come back to this thread and in my absence, twelve pages have appeared.

I have not read any of the twelve new pages.

In light of the above, please accept my apologies if this has already been discussed but:

What advantage accrues to Bedfordshire Fire Service by lying about the type of car that started the fire?

Bear in mind that EV fires are particularly dangerous to deal with and very hard to put out. Why would the people who would be putting their own lives in danger try to cover them up?
Its a conspiracy by
A:big batteries to put EVS in a better light ...
B:by big oil to put EVs in a worse light...
C:by certain car companies because it makes them look bad...
D:by the fire brigades to 'hid the TRUTH'...
E: by politicians because they are either in the pay of big oil, big batteries, car manufacturers or all of the above...
F: big journalism, , because they need to cover up the truth by any and or all of the above...
G: Big bra manufacturers, because- well just because....

__________________
It's a kind of a strawman thing in that it's exactly a strawman thing. Loss Leader

'When you're born into this world, you're given a ticket to the freak show. If you're born in America you get a front row seat.' George Carlin
Dabop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st November 2023, 03:55 AM   #840
P.J. Denyer
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 10,152
The noted researcher William Martin Joel has released a press statement outlining just how long the conspiracy has been going on.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=de...J0IHRoZSBmaXJl
__________________
"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion

"Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills
P.J. Denyer is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:14 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.