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Rise of Islam in Europe.

MarkCorrigan

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MarkCorrigan
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Mar 27, 2008
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As it was causing a derailment of the UK politics thread I've decided to create a thread here to discuss the claim that Muslims are swamping Europe and the UK.

The following are the last couple of posts of the derail so the conversation can flow from there:

MarkCorrigan said:
Muslims aren't invading the UK and Europe in droves either. Do you not remember the last time you tried this and got your ass handed to you by people who actually knew what they were talking about?
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Scorpion said:
Yes they are! Germany and France and Sweden have all been swamped, to name but three countries who have lived to regret the immigration of large numbers of Muslims. John Cleese said "London is no longer an English city".

I read an article which I believe was in the guardian, or some other paper which said Saudi Arabia was deliberately funding young Muslim men to come to the west with the aim of converting us to Islam.. I might be able to find that article, but it is a long way down my timeline on twitter.
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MarkCorrigan said:
Nope.

Don't you remember the previous discussion?

You do know countries perform a census right? We can look at religious demographics for countries?

Quick quiz for you. What do you think the percentage of the Swedish population is that are Muslims?

What about the UK?

Germany?

France?


Also please link to the article. Even if it exists I will bet money it doesn't say that Europe is being swamped.
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Exactly the kind of people who praise the Enlightenment and Judeo Christian Values as superior to everything else don't think that migrants could ever be convinced of their value.
It's like the only way to believe in Democracy is if you are a direct descendant of Athenian Gentry. The best way for European Countries to maintain their national identities is to make every effort to welcome migrants, teach them their language, provide them with a broad education and give them a stake in the economy.
It's not the Genes that make a Country. Far more important is a shared upbringing.
 
That comment was what made me lose any remaining respect I had for Cleese.

English is a nationality, not an ethnicity. English people come in all ethnicities.
 
But I agree with Cleese that London is no English city. It has been taken over by a new Species called The Super Rich, which only vaguely look human but can't act like it to save their lives.
 
Scorpion said:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...nquiry-into-gulf-funding-of-british-extremism
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1. That article is more than 6 years old. 6!

2. "The Henry Jackson Society (HJS) is a trans-Atlantic foreign policy and national security think tank, based in the United Kingdom. While describing itself as non-partisan, its outlook has been described variously as "right-wing",[1][2][3][4] neoliberal[5][6] and as neoconservative.["

What a shocker, right wing group scaremongering over immigrants.

3. Even if the report is correct it doesn't say what you are claiming it does.
 
There's a reason Europeans are massively shifting right politically and it's purely the immigration issue in my opinion. Lecturing them isn't going to change that.
 
The problem is most of the scaremongering around immigration is just made up nonsense.

How do you deal with that except to point out it's nonsense?
 
Ron Obvious said:
There's a reason Europeans are massively shifting right politically and it's purely the immigration issue in my opinion. Lecturing them isn't going to change that.
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It's made to be immigration, because that's so much easier than addressing the actually pressing issues and has the added benefit of being unsolvable the way The Right wants to, thus making sure the problem persists for the next election.

The actual issue is wealth inequality.
 
*Checks likely ancestry*

Yup, a loada Angles and Saxons, a smidge of Vikiwegian, some filtered through Scots and Norman, possibly a touch of Celt of an Irish variety, some more Scottish-ness, some radical French protestants, probably some Balrog from down a pit in the Deerness valley and a bit more Norman.

So, I reckon I should be setting fire to Christians, errr, conspiring with Sauron, stoning Catholics, making lace, hitting things with a pick, building huge castles and drinking heavily...

Managed a couple: what a disappointment I am to my heritage!
 
The problem with people like Scorpion is they see groups of people as sharing the same agenda and pursuing the same goals, when in fact most Muslims are just ordinary individuals trying to live their lives the best they can. In other words, they’re just like everybody else.
 
Ron Obvious said:
There's a reason Europeans are massively shifting right politically and it's purely the immigration issue in my opinion. Lecturing them isn't going to change that.
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It's more that immigration is being made the scapegoat to blame problems, often caused by right wing politics themselves.

In the Netherlands the rising costs of housing and health care are continually blamed upon immigrants by the rightwing and populist press.

Happily ignoring that fact that our right wing liberal party deregulated both the housing and healthcare on the promise that 'the market will make things cheaper', followed promptly by healthcare providers strangly rising all their prices by a similar amount each year and housing companies only building houses for the rich and offices for speculators, while stopping building low income housing.
The same right wing party always stopped investment in alternative energy because it would cost tax payer money and rise costs slightly, and there would be endless cheap gas from Russia, which would be kept in check by economic interests. Honest.


BUT IMMIGRANTS!!!
 
MarkCorrigan said:
The problem is most of the scaremongering around immigration is just made up nonsense.

How do you deal with that except to point out it's nonsense?
Click to expand...

It's fine to point out nonsense when you see it (although you haven't been doing that in this thread).

Claims such as "right wing", "scaremongering", "racist", "bigoted", etc. are meaningless pablum without elaboration.
 
sir drinks-a-lot said:
It's fine to point out nonsense when you see it (although you haven't been doing that in this thread).

Claims such as "right wing", "scaremongering", "racist", "bigoted", etc. are meaningless pablum without elaboration.
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It's empirical.

Plenty of right wing governments have been in charge of European countries, and none have done anything to actually fix the immigration problem.
The UK quit the EU so it had free reign to legislate immigration the way it wants to, and the result is a deal that will cost £1 million per migrant to relocate somewhere else.

Right Wing governments might accurately identify people's worries, but they don't actually have any solutions, because they don't want the kind of solutions that are proven to actually work.
 
The only reason I've not shown just how much nonsense Scorpion is talking is because I've asked him questions I'd like the answers to.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
Plenty of right wing governments have been in charge of European countries, and none have done anything to actually fix the immigration problem.
Click to expand...

Right Wing governments might accurately identify people's worries, but they don't actually have any solutions, because they don't want the kind of solutions that are proven to actually work.
Click to expand...

Hard to disagree with either of these statements, although I'm guessing we'd disagree about the solutions that might work.
 
Ron Obvious said:
There's a reason Europeans are massively shifting right politically and it's purely the immigration issue in my opinion. Lecturing them isn't going to change that.
Click to expand...

Are they really shifting that much to the right though?
And I note that the countries that have shifted that much to the right....Hungary...immigration is a minor issue.
 
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