• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Chris Mohr's YouTube Part 23 Epilogue: WTC Dust Update; Saying Goodbye to 9/11 Truth

Oh please Dave, it is absurd to suggest that being asked to address specific questions equals being asked to automatically agree with the answers according to the person asking the questions. You are of course being asked to see if you can debunk those answers, which happen to be that:

1) Dr. Farrer performed the TEM analysis of the aluminum platelets after the nano-thermite paper had been published.
2) According to Dr. Jones, the TEM and the XRD analysis on those platelets found "no known aluminum bearing compound" as well as not being able to identify a form of elemental aluminum. Further, this means that these results either debunked both Millette and Harrit, or they were invalid due to samples being too small or some other reason.



Criteria has given you several times the relevant links above where I originally made my case. Once you have addressed this we can discuss the integrity of Rev. Mohr as a technical 911truth researcher and journalist, and from there the value of his YouTube video claims, which are after all supposed to be the subject of this thread.



I have in fact answered the issue of Dr. Farrer being quoted about the similarity of the chips, more than once. My last answer was in fact addressed to you less than 24 hours ago, and it is even more appropriate now than then:



Now Dave, are you going to change the subject once more?

Why are you lying Ziggi?

Jones stated specifically, that the data showed the Aluminum, was in an amorphous form,
Millette found an Amorphous aluminum compound, Kaolin Clay so both the TEM and XRD,
Match perfectly with Millette's data and conclusions.
http://911debunkers.blogspot.com/2014/07/mohr-non-sense-chris-mohr-debunks.html
"The reference here speaks of amorphous aluminum alloys; I have found that even the existence of this amorphous form relating to aluminum is surprising to some scientists who somehow had not heard of it." http://911blogger.com/news/2012-09-08/letter-regarding-redgray-chip-analyses#comment-257482

http://www.reade.com/products/2-alu...9-8-pumice-granular-stone-agricultural-pumice
 
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I have in fact answered the issue of Dr. Farrer being quoted about the similarity of the chips, more than once. My last answer was in fact addressed to you less than 24 hours ago, and it is even more appropriate now than then:
No, at most Dr. Farrer said the chips looked the same on FIRST READ. Rev. Mohr neglected to mention that Dr. Jones posted a letter on 911blogger in collaboration with Dr. Farrer about 6 months after the release of Millette´s preliminary report - not upon first read! This letter lists several reasons to think the chips were in fact not the same. You know this already Dave. Is Rev. Mohr´s bad memory contagious?

This has been addressed by me at length and been shown to be FALSE:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=10993045#post10993045
You can't pretendt this hasn't been replied to, and that you are not thoroughly informed on WHY what you wrote is flat-out FALSE.

So why do you repeat this FALSE claim now?

You had better read my post in full and then retract and correct your FALSE claims.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=10993045#post10993045
 

Psst CC: Kaolin clay is crystalline, and pumice isn't kaolin.

We ought not compound Jones's unpublished., inconclusive XRD test on unspecified, uncharacterized, unknown chips with the TEM work Farrer did on exactly the chips used for the 2009 paper. Jones speculationg on amorphous Al in the XRD test on separate unspecified, uncharacterized, unknown chips, to save his hot fantasy that perhaps there might be elemental Al after all, has no bearing whatsoever on Farrer seeing hexagonal (crystalline) kaolin platelets under the TEM, or Farrer measurung the 1:1 unity of Si and Al in his chips.

As always: These are different chips that Jones did crap on. As long as the truthers don't admit that the chips aren't all the same and that Harrit, Jones, Farrer, Ryan, Farnsworth did different tests on different kinds of chips without accounting for their being different, they will continue to fail with their conclusions.
 
Psst CC: Kaolin clay is crystalline, and pumice isn't kaolin.

We ought not compound Jones's unpublished., inconclusive XRD test on unspecified, uncharacterized, unknown chips with the TEM work Farrer did on exactly the chips used for the 2009 paper. Jones speculationg on amorphous Al in the XRD test on separate unspecified, uncharacterized, unknown chips, to save his hot fantasy that perhaps there might be elemental Al after all, has no bearing whatsoever on Farrer seeing hexagonal (crystalline) kaolin platelets under the TEM, or Farrer measurung the 1:1 unity of Si and Al in his chips.

As always: These are different chips that Jones did crap on. As long as the truthers don't admit that the chips aren't all the same and that Harrit, Jones, Farrer, Ryan, Farnsworth did different tests on different kinds of chips without accounting for their being different, they will continue to fail with their conclusions.

You might want to do some reading on kaolinite before making assumptions Oystein,
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaolinite

Endothermic dehydration of kaolinite begins at 550–600 °C producing disordered metakaolin, but continuous hydroxyl loss is observed up to 900 °C (1,650 °F).[11] Although historically there was much disagreement concerning the nature of the metakaolin phase, extensive research has led to a general consensus that metakaolin is not a simple mixture of amorphous silica (SiO2) and alumina (Al2O3), but rather a complex amorphous structure that retains some longer-range order (but not strictly crystalline) due to stacking of its hexagonal layers.[11]

Al2Si2O5(OH)4 → Al2Si2O7 + 2 H2O.

Because Kaolinite is volcanic, it can contain bits of pumice, as well as other forms of amorphous Aluminum oxides.

Aluminum oxides could be responsible for the Aluminum readings in the
2009 paper, and would not show up in TEM or XRD, as elemental Aluminum.

That directly supports Millette's findings of Kaolinite Clays, and debunks Criteria's and Ziggi's
Claims against Millette's conclusion of paint chips.
 
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You might want to do some reading on kaolinite before making assumptions Oystein,
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaolinite



Because Kaolinite is volcanic, it can contain bits of pumice, as well as other forms of amorphous Aluminum oxides.

Aluminum oxides could be responsible for the Aluminum readings in the
2009 paper, and would not show up in TEM or XRD, as elemental Aluminum.

That directly supports Millette's findings of Kaolinite Clays, and debunks Criteria's and Ziggi's
Claims against Millette's conclusion of paint chips.

I am quite surprised then that Millette found this:
"The SAED pattern of the kaolin particles (Figure 19) matched the kaolin pattern shown in the McCrone Particle Atlas8 (Appendix E). The values for the d-spacings determined for the diffraction patterns matched those produced by reference kaolin samples."​
Where SAED is
"...a crystallographic experimental technique that can be performed inside a transmission electron microscope (TEM)."​

What you are quoting from the Wiki article on Kaolinite is the properties of Metakaolinite - not Kaolinite. It is conceivable that after their DSC- and flame tests, when they exposed the chips to 700 °C and more, the kaolinite pigments dehydroxilated to metakaolin, but neither Millette nor Farrer in his TEM tests did that. Dehydroxilation is endothermic and occurs at ~570-630 °C for ordered Kaolin.

Murray (2007) (Table 1, page 8) classifies Kaolinites as "Crystalline" and described their crystal structure.
Pruett and Webb (1993) even titled their paper "SAMPLING AND ANALYSIS OF KGa-1 B WELL-CRYSTALLIZED KAOLIN SOURCE CLAY"

Being well-crystallized is a valuable and sought-for property in commercially mined deposits.

Kaolinites are NOT volcanic! They are produced by the hydrous weathering of feldspar minerals; which in turn may be either magmatic or sedimentary.
 
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"Dr. Farrer was instead referring to a general TEM analysis he did before that paper was published, not analysis on the plates. Mr. Mohr´s decision to cut out the context left his viewers with the wrong idea." Ziggi and Criteria seem to think that I have made a terrible mistake here. It's true, Dr. Farrer, in his email to me about the TEM results, was likely referring to his intial TEM analysis, not the second one he did after publication of the 2009 paper. In my video, I don't recall anywhere where I claimed that Jeff was referring to a second TEM test. However, it may be that Ziggi is claiming that because I put the Jones quote next to the Farrer quote, that I was somehow implying that Farrer's quote referred to the second test specifically looking for the plates. My intention was to refer to the first TEM test done prior to publication, and I did not intend to create confusion about the two tests.
 
When Dr. Farrer was quoted, he certainly was well aware that his chip results did not agree with Dr. Millette’s chip results. So, he must not have believed the chips were truly a match, or, he believed that Dr. Millette had failed to do his tests properly.
YES.

OR Farrer has contradictory beliefs.


Now we know from direct quotes that Farrer believed the chips are a match.

It follows that EITHER Farrer believes that Millette's conclusions about what the chips are are wrong [meaning Dr. Millette improperly performed his substance identification testing] OR that Farrer believes contradictory things.

If it is a belief in contradictions, then the problem lies with Farrer and needs to be resolved by Farrer.

If Dr. Farrer believes that Dr. Millette’s testing was flawed, then there is no contradiction, only disagreement (on which conclusion is wrong and which is right).
FTFY

Since no one is in disagreement about the legitimacy of the test methods Dr. Millette employed for substance identification, if Dr. Farrer believes that Dr. Millette’s conclusions were wrong but the chips being tested were right, the inescapable conclusion is that Dr. Farrer must believe that Dr. Millette performed a flawed analysis.

“Do you claim humans are incapable of expressing two contradictory beliefs?”

I posed the only two credible explanations for Dr. Farrer’s response and you again destroy your credibility by presenting what you imagine to be a plausible third explanation.

That for the same chips, Dr. Farrer, might absurdly believe the impossible.

That Dr. Millette’s results were correct, and that Dr. Farrer’s own results were correct, and that he would knowingly accept the blatant contradiction that came from such a belief.

Rather than admit that Dr. Farrer either disagreed that the chips were a match, or that he felt Dr. Millette’s research was flawed, you pick a ridiculous non-choice.
 
That for the same chips, Dr. Farrer, might absurdly believe the impossible.

That Dr. Millette’s results were correct, and that Dr. Farrer’s own results were correct, and that he would knowingly accept the blatant contradiction that came from such a belief.

I have no idea why this is not sinking in with you. Do you have any idea what interpretation of results (data) means? Dr Farrer simply believes he gets it right and Millette gets it wrong. Only you are talking about "results" (conclusions).

I can't say it any simpler. Chris points this out, nothing more. What's wrong with that?
 
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You need to learn how "FTFY" is properly done.
When you edit my quotes, you must make it readily apparent what you added, and what you deleted!
Please use the STRIKE tag to mark those passages you delete from my original, and an appropriate color to mark those passages you add.
Failure to do so the next time will prompt me to report your quote-editing as a Rule 0 violation!

Since no one is in disagreement about the legitimacy of the test methods Dr. Millette employed for substance identification, if Dr. Farrer believes that Dr. Millette’s conclusions were wrong but the chips being tested were right, the inescapable conclusion is that Dr. Farrer must believe that Dr. Millette performed a flawed analysis.
Not necessarily. He might also believe that, while Dr. Millette's test results (data) are legitimate and well done, his conclusions don't follow from that data. After all, this is quite similar to my conviction about much of the Harrit et al (2009) data.

I posed the only two credible explanations for Dr. Farrer’s response and you again destroy your credibility by presenting what you imagine to be a plausible third explanation. That for the same chips, Dr. Farrer, might absurdly believe the impossible. That Dr. Millette’s results were correct, and that Dr. Farrer’s own results were correct, and that he would knowingly accept the blatant contradiction that came from such a belief.
Why do you find this incredible? Dr. Farrer is a Truther after all! Truthers generally must be capable of believing in contradictory things! If Farrer didn't believe contradictory things, he wouldn't be a Truther!

Criteria, you actually hit upon the Holy Grail here - you just don't recognize it!

Rather than admit that Dr. Farrer either disagreed that the chips were a match, or that he felt Dr. Millette’s research was flawed, you pick a ridiculous non-choice.
Well, perhaps Farrer feels Dr. Millette’s research was flawed - I don't know. I don't know if he ever uttered a verdict about Millette's study after the assessment "at first sight" that it seemed well done; or, if he uttered such a verdict, whether he uttered it to Chris and Chris is withholding it. Or perhaps Farrer never thought this through and has no opinion on the validity of Millette's results? I don't want to speculate.

But you can't claim it's impossible that Farrer believes contradictory things. He's not only a Truther, he is also human.
 
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Nothing against you but, I think he's not looking to address any points and is only looking for low hanging fruit (and hopes no one will notice).
We used to call it "trolling".

We now include it in "Twoofing" or whatever derogatory label we prefer - since 99.9% of "Genuine Truthers" have left the scene. I think feeding trolls is counter productive - but I am in a small minority.

Bottom line - zero interest in progressing reasoned honest debate.
 
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We now include it in "Twoofing" or whatever derogatory label we prefer - since 99.9% of "Genuine Truthers" have left the scene. I think feeding trolls is counter productive - but I am in a small minority.

You obviously don't understand this hobby........................:)

It's more fun then watching sitcoms on the TV..........No one's fighting the "good fight" here. There is no fight
 
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We used to call it "trolling".

We now include it in "Twoofing" or whatever derogatory label we prefer - since 99.9% of "Genuine Truthers" have left the scene. I think feeding trolls is counter productive - but I am in a small minority.

Bottom line - zero interest in progressing reasoned honest debate.

Counter productive, nah, perhaps non-productive.
 
You obviously don't understand this hobby........................:)
Wanna bet? ;)

Counter productive, nah, perhaps non-productive.
I won't chase the pedantic point. (And THAT is a change for me...I must be getting old or weary. :o)

I agree. Counter productive would imply there are still arguments that are worth addressing...
If "arguing" is your only area of interest. "Arguing" the process of disagreeing with someone rather than the use of reasoned argument to support an hypothesis. (Which - if it is my or either of your hypotheses - is by definition right and superior to the idiocies posted by the "other party".)

This has progressed from, "debunking" to "hobby ***** and giggles".
"Debunking" - proving others wrong - was never my primary objective as both of you know from my posting record. Debunking is often an efficient "means to an end" of explaining. What did happen always ranks higher with me than what didn't happen. Hence proving what did happen in preference to disproving what didn't happen. And even saying that "disproving" gets convoluted in logic. :boggled:
 
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Wanna bet? ;)

Not really.......:p

I won't chase the pedantic point. (And THAT is a change for me...I must be getting old or weary. :o)

If "arguing" is your only area of interest. "Arguing" the process of disagreeing with someone rather than the use of reasoned argument to support an hypothesis. (Which - if it is my or either of your hypotheses - is by definition right and superior to the idiocies posted by the "other party".)

Using reasoned argument when the person you are arguing against has no reasoned hypothesis is nothing more than arguing for the sake of argument. The "truth movement" is built on this principle and will continue on because people like me think it's more entertaining then TV.
 
Not really.......:p
Thought so. ;)

Using reasoned argument when the person you are arguing against has no reasoned hypothesis is nothing more than arguing for the sake of argument.
Maybe - it is not globally true BUT - make it:
Using reasoned argument when the person you are arguing against has insufficient reasoning processes is nothing more than arguing for the sake of argument.
...and I will both agree and plead guilty to multiple offences. :blush:
The "truth movement" is built on this principle and will continue on because people like me think it's more entertaining then TV.
I'm not presuming that the "truth movement" is the only source of confusion or false explanations. Recently the strongest advocates of Szamboti's modelling - using his modelling - have NOT been from the "truther side". :boggled:
 
I'm not presuming that the "truth movement" is the only source of confusion or false explanations. Recently the strongest advocates of Szamboti's modelling - using his modelling - have NOT been from the "truther side". :boggled:

I'm not sure I follow. Yes, application issues are obvious but, how does this translate to being advocates of TZ's modeling? Tz's use in his "paper" is a direct application but, everyone here seems to separate model from reality (there is gray area).
 
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I'm not sure I follow. Yes, application issues are obvious but, how does this translate to being advocates of TZ's modeling? Tz's use in his "paper" is a direct application but, everyone here seems to separate model from reality (there is gray area).

Getting too hyper focused on the minutia maybe and allowing the course of the discussion to be on the false premise... but not siding with them.
 
Two incredible accusations: first, that Farrer would be contradicting himself impossibly by saying Millette found the right chips while still standing behind the 2009 thermitic paper, therefore he is being taken way out of context. Wrong! Farrer indeed believed in thermite based strongly on the DSC readings. Millette said no thermite because his extensive materials characterization tests showed no elemental aluminum. Farrer is NOT contradicting himself when he says Millette found the right chips, and he has never retracted that statement, not to me privately nor (to my knowledge) in public. One could argue that my using only excerpts reduces the credibility, but to accuse me of dishonesty is over the top.
Another aggressive accusation of dishonesty is about the Farrer TEM quote. That was in my video in the context of people who failed to prove elemental aluminum. That includes Farrer with his TEM quote, Jones with his TEM quote, and Basile saying elemental aluminum hasn’t been proven. I just made a minor clarification in the video after 6:00, that the Farrer quote refers to the first TEM and the Jones quote to the second TEM and another test. But to say this is a gross and malicious error is the kind of mean-spirited accusation I am beyond sick of. Months ago, I corrected one mistake and reported on the single MEK-soaked chip which had a high aluminum reading. That is the ONLY evidence, to my knowledge, of elemental aluminum. But that in my opinion is not adequate proof at all! The authors of the paper, in my judgment, have yet to prove elemental aluminum, therefore no thermite. Basile’s study may give new evidence, so I await the results.
Quit attacking the messenger. Farrer said these things, and attacks against the guy who reported them don’t change that fact. You don’t have the full context but that doesn’t mean you can assume I am twisting these quotes out of context. They stand on their own as a powerful and valid rebuttal of many 9/11 Truth claims!
 
I'm not sure I follow. Yes, application issues are obvious but, how does this translate to being advocates of TZ's modeling?
Everyone debunker side knows that MJ is wrong. (Probably many from truther/troll side know it but wont "break ranks" out of loyalty to the cause.) Most recognise the difference between the Bazant assumptions which never happened and whatever understanding they may have of the "real event'. BUT the underlying assumption "Top Block dropped to make impact" still pervades a lot of explanations. Not many fall for the trap because they don't go into the explanation - simply standing on the assertion that "Bazant's B&Z Limit Assumptions were not real THEREFORE Szamboti is wrong". That is safe territory. But as soon as someone attempts to explain the underlying pervasive "drop to impact" concept often rears its ugly head. So look for explanations of "initiation stage" which still assume that the ' "Top Block" dropped to make impact THEN...whatever....'

Recently it has arisen in "Missing Jolt Revisited" (version 786) (Or 921 - I've lost count. :D)

It's part of the same misunderstanding in those discussions of whether or not "tilt" would cause or prevent axial impacts. (It is just another generic framing of the concepts of MJ)

The "tilt" only occurs AFTER columns have failed AND one side of Top Block gets lower than the other side. AKA "tilts". The big impact of MJ cannot arise. And at the time tilt occurs the column ends have already missed. Look for denials of those two statements of essentially the same "bleedingly obvious" realities going back 4 or 5 years. And blame Szamboti - because if he hadn't published MJ the discussion would probably never have led to embedding the confusion. So it is T Sz's confusion which has infected others. It's almost an "Internet Meme" if I dare to use that word. :)

Tz's use in his "paper" is a direct application but, everyone here seems to separate model from reality...
Most do until they go to explanations - already addressed above.

(there is gray area).
That is where I disagree. IMNSHO it is either the Szamboti bastardised from Bazant version OR it is something else. And IMNSHO it cannot be a "mix and match" - bits of one and bits of the other. Frame your own metaphor. No "grey area" - one or the other.

Come at it from the opposite direction - UNLESS people are discussing the real event - they are not discussing the real event. So their conclusions are very unlikely to relate to real event. (There are some obvious "yes buts" there for the nit pickers but I'll leave it as simple assertions without all the disclaimers covered. :boggled: )
 
Originally Posted by chrismohr

Another aggressive accusation of dishonesty is about the Farrer TEM quote. That was in my video in the context of people who failed to prove elemental aluminum. That includes Farrer with his TEM quote

Yes Rev. Mohr, this context is wrong because

1) Farrer´s quotes are not at all about his TEM analysis of the aluminum platelets but you give that false appearance by quoting him out of context
2) Farrer never said he failed to prove elemental aluminum but you again give that false impression by quoting him out of context. On the contrary Farrer told you he still stood behind his finding of elemental aluminum as published in their paper.

"Dr. Farrer was instead referring to a general TEM analysis he did before that paper was published, not analysis on the plates. Mr. Mohr´s decision to cut out the context left his viewers with the wrong idea." Ziggi and Criteria seem to think that I have made a terrible mistake here. It's true, Dr. Farrer, in his email to me about the TEM results, was likely referring to his intial TEM analysis, not the second one he did after publication of the 2009 paper. In my video, I don't recall anywhere where I claimed that Jeff was referring to a second TEM test. However, it may be that Ziggi is claiming that because I put the Jones quote next to the Farrer quote, that I was somehow implying that Farrer's quote referred to the second test specifically looking for the plates. My intention was to refer to the first TEM test done prior to publication, and I did not intend to create confusion about the two tests.

Rev. Mohr, you have been answered: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10995325&postcount=1327

You can no-longer pretend you do not know about your misconduct and that you have to retract that video and apologize in public to Dr. Farrer and the rest of his team. That is the least you can do, no matter how embarrassed you are. You reputation as a 911researcher is already gone forever but you can still salvage the reputation of Rev. Mohr as a decent human being.
 
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Everyone debunker side knows that MJ is wrong. (Probably many from truther/troll side know it but wont "break ranks" out of loyalty to the cause.) Most recognise the difference between the Bazant assumptions which never happened and whatever understanding they may have of the "real event'. BUT the underlying assumption "Top Block dropped to make impact" still pervades a lot of explanations. Not many fall for the trap because they don't go into the explanation - simply standing on the assertion that "Bazant's B&Z Limit Assumptions were not real THEREFORE Szamboti is wrong". That is safe territory. But as soon as someone attempts to explain the underlying pervasive "drop to impact" concept often rears its ugly head. So look for explanations of "initiation stage" which still assume that the ' "Top Block" dropped to make impact THEN...whatever....'

Recently it has arisen in "Missing Jolt Revisited" (version 786) (Or 921 - I've lost count. :D)
If you happen to mean this thread by chance, then no, it was intended to discuss the real event, as stated in the OP.

I'd like you to clarify if you were referring to that thread in particular when you say "Missing Jolt Revisited version 786 or 921".
 
Originally Posted by chrismohr

Another aggressive accusation of dishonesty is about the Farrer TEM quote. That was in my video in the context of people who failed to prove elemental aluminum. That includes Farrer with his TEM quote
Yes Rev. Mohr, this context is wrong because

1) Farrer´s quotes are not at all about his TEM analysis of the aluminum platelets but you give that false appearance by quoting him out of context
2) Farrer never said he failed to prove elemental aluminum but you again give that false impression by quoting him out of context. On the contrary Farrer told you he still stood behind his finding of elemental aluminum as published in their paper...

Mohr's claim is not that Farrer "said he failed to prove" but that Farrer actually "failed to prove" elemental aluminium with his TEM work. Note the difference?

To vet Mohr's claim, try answering directly and honestly this simple and direct question:

Did Dr. Farrer prove elemental Al with any of his TEM work? Answer "Yes" or "No".

I know the answer is clearly and unequivocally "No".
There is not a shred of doubt in my mind that you, too, know the answer is "No".
This is your chance to demonstrate that there is an honest bone left in your body.
 
Mohr's claim is not that Farrer "said he failed to prove" but that Farrer actually "failed to prove" elemental aluminium with his TEM work. Note the difference?

To vet Mohr's claim, try answering directly and honestly this simple and direct question:

Did Dr. Farrer prove elemental Al with any of his TEM work? Answer "Yes" or "No".

I know the answer is clearly and unequivocally "No".
There is not a shred of doubt in my mind that you, too, know the answer is "No".
This is your chance to demonstrate that there is an honest bone left in your body.

Don't hold your breath on this one Oystein, I doubt there is any honesty left in anyone connected with AE/911 truth, after Ziggi's last post on the Mark Basile Thread, an inert gas DSC is just to simple and easy to perform, it should have been done right after the TEM study,
or before the release of the Harrit & Jones paper, to verify or falsify the papers conclusion.
Not doing it and now no independent inert gas DSC, means there can never be verification
or falsification of the papers conclusion by an independent researcher.
We now even have to question if a test is done, if the source dust was modified rigged to pass the inert Gas DSC, it would have to be verified using known 9/11 dust not in the hands of
AE/911 truth, or Mark Basile!
 
Mohr's claim is not that Farrer "said he failed to prove" but that Farrer actually "failed to prove" elemental aluminium with his TEM work.
Exactly. What's important is whether there exists physical evidence to support the idea that the chips are thermitic. Some people seem more interested in discussing who said what or whether this or that person is credible/a liar/a hypocrite etc... If the chips are thermitic, surely proving this physically again and again using different methods would cut through any number of debates about people's credibility. If those arguing that the chips are thermitic do not do this, I think it speaks volumes.
 
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Exactly. What's important is whether there exists physical evidence to support the idea that the chips are thermitic. Some people seem more interested in discussing who said what or whether this or that person is credible/a liar/a hypocrite etc... If the chips are thermitic, surely proving this physically again and again using different methods would cut through any number of debates about people's credibility. If those arguing that the chips are thermitic do not do this, I think it speaks volumes.

Just one simple test under inert gas, something they could have done in the original paper,
In less than an hours time, and they will never do it!
 
Exactly. What's important is whether there exists physical evidence to support the idea that the chips are thermitic. Some people seem more interested in discussing who said what or whether this or that person is credible/a liar/a hypocrite etc... If the chips are thermitic, surely proving this physically again and again using different methods would cut through any number of debates about people's credibility. If those arguing that the chips are thermitic do not do this, I think it speaks volumes.

Georgio, it is absurd to claim that it does not matter if the people you trust for opinions about whether or not this evidence exist are liars. If you are not willing to expose liars and rule out their comments you will never get to the truth about anything, and your comments will have no credibility in the eyes of those that do not accept as valid arguments the comments of liars.

Your attitude is at best the one of someone that will do anything to preserve his faith.
 
Georgio, it is absurd to claim that it does not matter if the people you trust for opinions about whether or not this evidence exist are liars.
It's a question of priorities, I think. If the Bentham team really have identified thermitic chips in 911 dust then they should be doing everything they possibly can to get this result repeated and established as absolutely inescapable to the satisfaction of everyone. The arguments about credibility and exposing who has lied and when can wait until after the results have been completely established. Well designed experiments can't lie, and if the chips have been separated and supplied by the Bentham team (something which I advocate) then there can be no argument about having the wrong chips.
 
... to expose liars and rule out their comments ...

As full expected, you pretend to not have read my previous post and the question I had for you.
Show that you are not a liar:


Mohr's claim is not that Farrer "said he failed to prove" but that Farrer actually "failed to prove" elemental aluminium with his TEM work. Note the difference?

To vet Mohr's claim, try answering directly and honestly this simple and direct question:

Did Dr. Farrer prove elemental Al with any of his TEM work? Answer "Yes" or "No".

I know the answer is clearly and unequivocally "No".
There is not a shred of doubt in my mind that you, too, know the answer is "No".
This is your chance to demonstrate that there is an honest bone left in your body.
 
To vet Mohr's claim, try answering directly and honestly this simple and direct question:

Did Dr. Farrer prove elemental Al with any of his TEM work? Answer "Yes" or "No".

I know the answer is clearly and unequivocally "No".
There is not a shred of doubt in my mind that you, too, know the answer is "No".
This is your chance to demonstrate that there is an honest bone left in your body.

Not going to happen. This along with the question as to who elected him spokesman for this study.
 
Georgio, it is absurd to claim that it does not matter if the people you trust for opinions about whether or not this evidence exist are liars. If you are not willing to expose liars and rule out their comments you will never get to the truth about anything, and your comments will have no credibility in the eyes of those that do not accept as valid arguments the comments of liars.”
It's a question of priorities, I think.

If the Bentham team really have identified thermitic chips in 911 dust then they should be doing everything they possibly can to get this result repeated and established as absolutely inescapable to the satisfaction of everyone.

The arguments about credibility and exposing who has lied and when can wait until after the results have been completely established.

Well designed experiments can't lie, and if the chips have been separated and supplied by the Bentham team (something which I advocate) then there can be no argument about having the wrong chips.

You are being incredibly naive Georgio.

To paraphrase an old expression, the horses do not wish to be lead to water.

The establishment does not wish to poke at old sores. Even Mr. Mohr refuses to do more than the bare minimum and he was one of the few people willing to take their heads out of the sand and acknowledge the seriousness of the 2009 Bentham paper’s conclusions.

Take for example Dr. Millette’s study from 3.5 years ago, does it not bother you that his passion for investigating the findings of the 2009 Bentham paper expired so abruptly, just shy of making an observation that would have sent him back to the drawing board?

He went to all the trouble of isolating a pile of 9/11 WTC red chips, heated them at a temperature guaranteed to not allow them to self destruct, and then, when he no longer had any use for them, could not be bothered to look and see how they behaved if heated another +30 °C hotter as was done by the scientists whose work he was supposedly trying to recreate.

It takes a lot of hubris to be so sure of your preliminary results that you feel the easily performed most controversial test is not required.

Other than “9/11 Truth seekers”, I have not seen one of the ‘regulars’ here complain about Dr. Millette’s lack of scientific curiosity, or Mr. Mohr’s unwillingness to pursue the matter further.

Mysteriously (or politically), Dr. Millette refused to go that extra few feet, and his sponsor Mr. Mohr following the beat of the same drum, showed more interest in getting campfire ashes from DGM than asking Dr. Millette for his discarded chip samples. So really Georgio, what form of action representing “everything they possibly can to get this result repeated” do you think the scientists might have pursued that would overcome the 9/11 conspiracy phobias that permeate the scientific community?

Unlike the scientists who authored the 2009 Bentham paper, people like Dr. Millette who performed various types of research on the 9/11 WTC dust for the U.S. government, must have access to a virtually unlimited supply of that dust. Good luck obtaining any.

Sure it would be convenient if the scientists who authored the 2009 Bentham paper provided chips that they pre-qualified, but would it not be best if independent scientists working with 9/11 WTC dust provided by a neutral or even anti-2009 Bentham paper source (Dr. Millette), validated the paper’s findings? Who best to obtain agreement from if not your opposition?

Hopefully in the not too distant future Mark Basile will either provide validation or he will not.

If Mark succeeds in providing strong support for the findings of the 2009 Bentham paper, you can count on all of the amateur debunkers here to concoct a fresh batch of lies enshrouded in pseudo science to dismiss him.
 
what form of action representing “everything they possibly can to get this result repeated” do you think the scientists might have pursued that would overcome the 9/11 conspiracy phobias that permeate the scientific community?
They could perform all the tests that informed critics of the paper say they should have done in order to prove conclusively that the material is thermitic. I believe I'm right in saying that the most important one to do is to see if the material ignites in argon.
 
To paraphrase an old expression, the horses do not wish to be lead to water.
Hey Horse! Look, water:

Based on Harrit's paper "WHY THE RED/GRAY CHIPS ARE NOT PRIMER PAINT" and its sources, I conclude that every item on Oystein's list is correct. Here's why.

First:
In "WHY THE RED/GRAY CHIPS ARE NOT PRIMER PAINT," Harrit only mentions one primer paint: Tnemec red. Figures 3 and 4 give information about its composition. Harrit does not name or list a single property of any other paint. All of his arguments refer to the properties of Tnemec red. Either his argument is fallacious, or he is assuming Tnemec red is the only primer paint that could have been present.

This assumption is false, not just because there could have been paint from other sources, but also because we know a LaClede primer paint was also use in WTC.

Second:
Harrit's paper is about whether "the red/gray chips" are paint. We can take "the red/gray chips" to mean "the red/gray chips studied in the Bentham paper." Addressing this assumption then requires analysis of the Bentham paper, which others in this thread and related threads have already done. For now, I will simply refer back to their arguments about this assumption and its falsity.

Third:
Harrit says (page 3), "Even though the composition of the Tnemec pigment is proprietary, the content of this component can be obtained from the Material Safety Data Sheet, from which the pertinent information is reproduced in Figure 4." (emphasis added) He explicitly states that the data sheet gives the composition of the proprietary pigment. I don't see another way to interpret this.

This assumption is false, as the data sheet (http://www.tnemec.com/resources/product/msds/m10v.pdf) is for Tnemec Primer Red, not pigment.

Fourth:
In Table 1, there is a column labeled "Composition in wet paint." The value given for zinc chromate is 20.3%, which is the value for zinc chromate given in Sramek 1967. Thus, Harrit treats Sramek 1967 as if the wet paint mass is 100%.

This assumption is false. In Figure 3, the pigment and vehicle sections each individually sum to 100%. Zinc chromate is this 20.3% of the pigment alone, not of the wet paint.

Fifth:
On page 3 Harrit says, "After application, the paint was baked at 120 °C. In this process all volatile ingredients evaporate. Thinners (Figure 3) and mineral spirits (from the Tnemec pigment) amount to (32.3 + 7.6) ~ 40 %. If we subtract these from the composition percentages given above, we get a rough estimate of the composition of the hardened paint." (emphasis added) The value of 32.3% for thinners is taken from Sramek 1967. In order for subtracting this (along with the extra assumed pigment spirits) from 100% to give the hardened composition, we must assume Sramek 1967 treats wet paint mass as 100%.

This assumption is false. In Figure 3, the pigment and vehicle sections each individually sum to 100%. Thinners are 32.3% of the vehicle alone, not of the wet paint.

Sixth: The conclusion follows from the above. Harrit overestimates how much of each pigment is present in the wet paint, and he overestimates how much of the wet paint mass evaporates away. These errors combine to produce an even greater overestimation of how much of each pigment is in the dry paint.

It is easy to verify each of these (especially the fourth and fifth, which alone justify Oystein's conclusion); it does not require specialist knowledge of chemistry.

Alternatively, there's water in my post #1193

Will you drink?



If Mark succeeds in providing strong support for the findings of the 2009 Bentham paper, you can count on all of the amateur debunkers here to concoct a fresh batch of lies enshrouded in pseudo science to dismiss him.

Mark is hiding behind a gatekeeper, Ziggi, who protects and defends his doing NOTHING AT ALL for 3 years to the tune of $5000.
Are you cool with that?
You know what the deal was:
Mark would select a few suitable chips (magnetic attraction; red-gray) (1 week)
Send them to an independent lab, perhaps more than one (1 day)
Wait for results to return (2 weeks)
Report the results (3 days)

Could have taken 3 weeks. Why are you not asking Ziggi to kick Mark's ass hard and repeatedly?
 

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