JFK Conspiracy Theories IV: The One With The Whales

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.John Connally is one of the only witnesses to have studied the Zapruder film to some extent. He chose frame 231 for when he was shot. I happen to agree that frame 222 is more likely when he was first shot (the shoulder jerk, the lapel flap), however others have presented photographic evidence that makes frame 237 a suspect. He also said that perhaps Kennedy was shot at around frame 190. I think he agrees more with my interpretation.

Can you quote where Connally put the wounding of JFK at Z190? I've never heard that claim before.

Did John Connally (or you, for that matter) ever explain what happened to the bullet that struck JFK in the back, if it didn't exit his throat and strike Connally?

Is this the magic bullet that conspiracy theorists don't like to talk about? Full body x-rays of JFK at autopsy revealed no bullets in the body, so what happened to your magic bullet?

Hank
 
I just started spending my free time reading about JFK a few months ago. How could I know?

Start here, with the 26 volumes of testimony and exhibits.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/contents.htm

Totally free. You won't have to spend a friggin' penny to educate yourself. It cost me $2500 at the PRESIDENTS BOX BOOKSHOP back in the early 1980's to buy a complete set. I got tired of going to the NY CITY main library every Saturday and taking notes. And that was back when $2500 was a pretty decent sum of money.

Seriously. Start there. Don't read another thing by anyone until you educate yourself on what the witnesses (both eye and expert) actually said. Stop getting your education on this subject through a conspiracy filter.

Hank
 
You can still kind of see the mark on the concrete (on the upper-right corner of the square surrounding the manhole cover) on Google Maps today: https://i.imgur.com/asGvPAv.png

I actually stood in that spot. What the conspiracy authors don't tell you is the well-formed hole in the concrete there is actually about a half inch deep and about an inch long. What caused that hole is a twig that got imbedded in the concrete and decayed away over time, leaving a deep depression.

There is no hole from a bullet strike in that location. Never was.

Hank
 
The early reports of a bullet found in the grass were an early assertion of mine. I think that a missed bullet most likely struck the very upper corner of the concrete square around manhole cover where the grass had slightly grown over. There are photographs of Buddy Walthers and an unidentified officially-dressed blond man poking around that area, even putting something in their pocket. Newspaper reports, sworn testimony, how Walthers can't seem to keep his story straight about it, and the fact there there is an actual chip in the concrete there. I don't know the trajectory required, but a fragment of this may have been responsible for the other mark in the concrete near James Tague.

Stop reading conspiracy websites. This isn't close to the truth.


If the people here are half as familiar with the case as they claim to be, they should know that many relevant experts have come out and said that even having such accuracy with a time spacing of 2.3 seconds would be very unlikely, even for them considering everything. So far, nobody has provided anything but experiments designed to cycle and fire a MC as fast as possible. Has anybody actually gotten two accurate shots in 2.3 seconds with an identical Carcano when the exact circumstances are recreated, including moving targets? Has no Television hitpiece successfully done that? I know Jesse Ventura attempted it, but he failed.

CBS. RIFLE TESTS. 1967.

Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WOgdyTvWjU

And who says Oswald fired two accurate shots in 2.3 seconds? That's a mish-mash of two separate items.... the fastest time the rifle could be recycled, and the presumption that the missed shot came between the first shot that struck both men and the head shot.

The Warren Report never said this is what happened, and no defender of a lone-nut non-conspiracy theory has ever said Oswald got off two accurate shots in 2.3 seconds.

So why are you asking people to defend your strawman argument?

Hank
 
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The tests were conducted by 3 people at a distance of 15 yards for accuracy; another test was conducted at 25 yards to test how fast the weapon could be fired. Results for the first test:

"The bullets landed approximately--in Killion's target, No. 549, approximately 2 1/2 inches high, and 1 inch to the right, in the area about the size of a dime, interlocking in the paper, all three shots.

On Commission Exhibit 548, Cunningham fired three shots. These shots were interlocking, or within an eighth of an inch of each other, and were located approximately 4 inches high and 1 inch to the right of the aiming point. The three shots which I fired were landed in a three-quarter inch circle, two of them interlocking with Cunningham's shots, 4 inches high, and approximately 1 inch to the right of the aiming point."

Frazier also tested it at 100 yards and found the scope to be unstable. The bullets landed 5 inches too high and 5 inches to the right of the aiming point.

This was after the rifle had been dropped between some boxes on the sixth floor. How would that affect the accuracy of the scope?

How would that affect the accuracy of the iron sights?

Hank
 
Okay, there's one problem with your theory: It means only two shots were fired in the assassination.

EDIT: You can do that, you know. You just have to theorize that two spent hulls and one live round were found on the floor, and the third spent hull with a dented lip was planted as evidence later to be consistent with three shots.

Please read this thread from the beginning and the portion of the prior thread where Robert Harris first arrived.

The two-shot scenario has been discussed in detail.

And another solution that doesn't involve planting evidence is that one shell had been left in the rifle after target practice elsewhere, and ejected prior to the shooting; then two shots were fired during during the shooting and both shells ejected -- accounting for the three shells recovered, all fired from Oswald's rifle to the exclusion of all other weapons in the world.

Another possibility is Oswald arrived at the Depository with a rifle loaded with four rounds... fired three shots and left the three shells at the sniper's nest window.

Why do you suggest only a conspiracy solution above?

Hank
 
I had stopped believing the CT nonsense before I got there, but in visiting the six floor myself with a few of the usual suspects that I ran around with it really brought it home - all the ******** about impossible shots is so far wrong it's unbelievable - one of my buddies said it best "Manny (an absent friend) could have killed him with a lime!" (our friend having thrown a lime just about over the horizon, it was a running joke in my unit at the time.)

Standing in Dealey Plaza for my first time in 1991 at the location of the head shot, I felt I could throw a baseball or a rock and hit the sniper's nest sixth floor window. It looks that close. It's 88 yards or 265 feet, but that's a throw from the outfield to the cutoff man in baseball. It's not all that far.

And you don't have to throw the rifle that far. You just have to aim it, and the bullet does all the work.

Hank
 
I don't know what you've been reading, but from what I understand, most people tend to think that the CIA was involved from the beginning. It wound seem like some elements of the conspiracy were pretty sloppy, though. Especially since a few years ago, photographic evidence confirmed that Lee Harvey Oswald had three wallets (one left on Marina's dresser, one found on the scene of the Tippit shooting, and one found in his pocket when he was arrested).

The claims that Oswald dropped a wallet at the scene of the Tippit killing didn't surface until about a decade or two ago. That's sufficient time for people to forget some details and reconstruct it falsely. Photographic evidence in NO WAY confirms this is Oswald's wallet at the Tippit murder scene.


Also, from what I understand, the physical and ballistics evidence has endless literature explaining why it supports conspiracy. For example, why each shell casing shows some sign of being cycled through the rifle more than once and/or dry fired.

Gee, almost like Oswald practiced with it. How does that support conspiracy?

What other great examples that support conspiracy do you have?

Hank
 
cmikes, the vast majority of witnesses indicated that the last two shots were close together, and I have reason to believe that many of the "only two shot" witnesses may have interpreted the last two shots as one shot.

Alternately, many of the "two close shots" witnesses may have interpreted the head shot and the impact of the bullet on the head as two shots, not one shot and the impact of one shot.



There were three loud reports. The last two were most likely close together.

Three loud reports. Not three loud shots. Good, good.


I don't think it's a good idea to rule out the possibility of volly fire and/or silenced weapons.

Other than the fact that there's no evidence for either, you mean.



There is evidence that Connolly was hit by a second bullet that came shortly after the first loud one.

Depends on the meaning of shortly, doesn't it? Five seconds is a short amount of time, unless someone is putting a blowtorch to your toes.

Also, the incredibly likely fact that LHO could not have done all of the damage to President Kennedy, especially considering that the small circular wound near the EOP couldn't possibly exit from the top-right of the head.

All the witnesses that reported seeing a gunman that day saw him in the Depository.
All the shells found in Dealey Plaza that day were found in the Depository.
The only weapon found in Dealey Plaza that day was found in the Depository.
The only bullet found at Parkland is traceable to that rifle found in the Depository.
The only fragments found in the limo with sufficient lands and grooves to be matched to a weapon are traceable to that rifle found in the Depository.
The head wound was inflicted from behind and above, and only behind and above.
That evidence indicates to me that Oswald inflicted that wound to the head.


It's important to remember that the evidence against LHO is some of the most discredited evidence in the world. You can't trust anything in this case, not even necessarily photographs (even though official photos do implicate conspiracy).

Hilarious. Stop reading conspiracy literature now. Of course they say that. They have to say that. They can't sell a conspiracy with the existing evidence because it all points to Oswald. So they try to find some reason to discredit every single item of evidence.

The typical methodology they employ is to quote some eyewitnesses (out of context is ok, three or four decades after the fact is acceptable as well), contrast it with the hard evidence, and then use the eyewitness recollection(s) to discard the hard evidence... which is the exact opposite way any real life investigation would proceed. Is it any wonder their methodology hasn't solved the crime after 53 years?

The sooner you realize the primary goal is to sell books to suckers the better.

They are not after a solution to the crime. The evidence points to Oswald. Throwing out the evidence doesn't solve the crime.


First of all, you are the one postulating that a bullet missed and was never found. I have already suggested that the early reports of a bullet found in the grass have physical evidence in the form of a deep indention on the side of the stone surrounding the manhole cover. There is also evidence for a broad bullet that came out of JFK's back.

The deep indentation is the remnants of a twig. The broad evidence of a bullet that came out of JFK's back is what, exactly?


John McAdams is not only a horrible human being, he is probably the worst source of information on JFK on the internet.

"Terrible human being" is just the logical fallacy of poisoning the well.
Can you document ONE thing he said that's wrong? According to you, this should be easy, as he's "probably the worst source of information on JFK on the internet". Once example from his website -- documented -- should not be asking too much.

I found one.... in talking about the mysterious deaths, he says Mark Line is still alive.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/deaths.htm

"4. Most well-known conspiracy witnesses and authors are still alive. For example, of the best-known conspiracy authors who wrote books in the 1960s, Mark Lane, Edward J. Epstein, and Josiah Thompson are still alive."

Clearly, he's lying scum. Unless you believe he wrote that over a year ago and hasn't updated it. Who will accept that nonsense?



I'm not interested in it. I know there's a House Select Committee earshot witness experiment which had results that overall said that while there were a lot of echoes in Dealey Plaza, you are most likely to correctly determine the origin of a loud gunshot.

Can you cite that experiment and the precise conclusions? With a verifiable link and quotes?

Hank
 
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You had me at "neutron analysis".

You are absolutely wrong. There is evidence for a shorter, broader bulllet from his back and evidence for a bullet found near a manhole cover.

Sorry, no. Please cite this evidence.


It's called framing someone. At least one of the shells show signs of being cycled through the rifle without a bullet.

I hate to be redundant, but Please cite this evidence.


There's also the problem of the dented lip.

I hate to be redundant, but Please cite this evidence.


And how the chain of custody is butchered.

On what? Please cite this evidence.


And how the original story was that two spent hulls and one live round were found on the floor.

No, that was never the original story. The original story is that three hulls were found on the floor. If you believe otherwise, please cite the evidence for this new claim. I've never heard this one before. It's funny that's it's taken 53 years for someone to discover the 'original story' is wrong.

Hank
 
This is simply not true. Every attempt to discredit evidence in the case only winds up confirming it.

Take the evidence that Oswald owned the Carcano used in the shooting. Conspiracy advocates will take their examination of each individual piece to absolutely absurd lengths until they find something to focus on.

The rifle was ordered from Kleins Sporting Goods in Chicago. Each individual piece of correspondence had handwriting matching Lee Harvey Oswald. The rifle was ordered using an alias that Oswald had an ID for when he was arrested. The rifle was sent to a post office box being rented by Lee Harvey Oswald. There are several photographs of Oswald posing with the same rifle as the one found in the depository. The negative for one of those photographs has been matched to the Oswalds Imperial Reflex camera to the exclusion of all other cameras. Every first generation print of those photographs has been examined in depth by an entire panel of photography experts and found to be 100% original and unaltered. There is a copy of one of the photographs with Oswald's handwriting on the back. Multiple sets of Oswald's prints were lifted off of the rifle after its recovery. One set, the palm print on the underside of the barrel, was matched to Oswald on the day of the assassination. The set of prints on the trigger guard was matched to Oswald in 1992 by fingerprint expert Vincent Scalice using newly found high contrast photographs of the print from the DPD. Oswald's wife testified to him owning a rifle, that she photographed him with it, testified to him taking it to shooting ranges, and that he would sit on the porch and dry cycle it for hours. Other acquaintances of the Oswalds also testified to Oswald owning a rifle.

In any other criminal case, that mountain of evidence would be enough for any thinking person to conclude that yes, Oswald owned the Carcano that fired the shots. In this case however, conspiracy advocates resort to picking gnat **** out of pepper in order to try and get around it.

They'll argue that the money order filled out by Oswald and cashed by Kleins doesn't have a bank stamp, so the entire paper trail must be fraudulent.

They'll argue that there is no proof Alex Hiddell was listed as an alternate recipient on Oswald's PO box due to a missing form, so there is no way he could have received mail there (conveniently ignoring that Oswald had a PO box in New Orleans and had listed Alex Hiddell as an alternate recipient there).

They'll argue that the rifle was picked up during the day when Oswald was at work, so he couldn't possibly have been the one to pick it up (conveniently ignoring that Oswald the model employee was fired from every job he ever had).

They'll argue that because the FBI didn't find the print the night of the shooting after it had already been lifted, that the DPD must have planted it.

And there's more of this everywhere you look. They'll argue the original weapon found in the Depository was a Mauser, because the MC looks like one, and a couple of officers who never handled it mistook it for one. They'll argue the conspirators stole the MC from Paine's garage to plant in the Depository and thereby frame Oswald. They'll argue that Oswald never ordered, paid for, took receipt of, or possessed the weapon (despite the overwhelming evidence he did all of that, as you noted). They'll argue that the MC was inadequate for the task, conveniently forgetting all those other arguments, which implies the conspirators framed Oswald for owning an inadequate weapon, when they just as easily could have framed him for owning a good weapon, but choose not to for some bizarre reason.

And they'll argue the conspirators tried to frame Oswald as a lone nut shooting only from behind by having JFK shot by anywhere from three to ten shooters stationed all over Dealey Plaza.

When you take a step back from the conspiracy arguments and look at all the CT claims in total, they make no sense whatsoever.

Hank
 
What, "the CIA" (who, specifically, please) couldn't have spiked his drug cocktail or pushed him down a flight of stairs so instead went the easy route of concocting a scheme of multiple shooters in broad daylight surrounded by hundreds of people with the high possibility of leaving behind incriminating physical evidence?

Think, man!

Or induce a fake aneurysm like they did with David Ferrie?

Or have JFK drive off the road like the conspirators did with Lee Bowers?

Or have a suicide driver take out JFK by a head-on crash, like they did with William Whaley?

Why didn't they simply "fake heart attack" JFK's AF1 pilot like they "fake heart attacked" so many other important people on the mysterious deaths list?

Hank
 
Can you quote where Connally put the wounding of JFK at Z190? I've never heard that claim before.

Did John Connally (or you, for that matter) ever explain what happened to the bullet that struck JFK in the back, if it didn't exit his throat and strike Connally?

Is this the magic bullet that conspiracy theorists don't like to talk about? Full body x-rays of JFK at autopsy revealed no bullets in the body, so what happened to your magic bullet?

Hank


This, more than any other one thing, is what originally convinced me that the single bullet theory was actually what happened. In the conspiracy version of events, JFK and Connally are both sitting ramrod straight directly in line with each other front to back and at the same height. When you look at how they were actually sitting in relation to each other, though, with Connally somewhat to JFK's left and in a jump seat that was six inches lower than the seat that JFK was sitting in it's obvious that any bullet that exited JFK's throat from the sniper's nest really had nowhere to go but right into Connally's back.


Start here, with the 26 volumes of testimony and exhibits.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/contents.htm

Totally free. You won't have to spend a friggin' penny to educate yourself. It cost me $2500 at the PRESIDENTS BOX BOOKSHOP back in the early 1980's to buy a complete set. I got tired of going to the NY CITY main library every Saturday and taking notes. And that was back when $2500 was a pretty decent sum of money.

Seriously. Start there. Don't read another thing by anyone until you educate yourself on what the witnesses (both eye and expert) actually said. Stop getting your education on this subject through a conspiracy filter.

Hank


There's really no excuse in this day and age not to be familiar with the Warren Report, the HSCA and the ARRB. I remember back in the day reading stuff like Conspiracy, Crossfire and Best Evidence, taking notes and having to make a trip over 30 miles away to the WVU library if I wanted to look up how the authors were mangling the facts. My local library had a copy of the Warren Commission Report, which did me no good since I already had that, but WVU was the nearest library that had the 26 volumes. This hobby is much easier now that all this information is on-line and you can actually cross check this stuff in seconds.
 
What, "the CIA" (who, specifically, please) couldn't have spiked his drug cocktail or pushed him down a flight of stairs so instead went the easy route of concocting a scheme of multiple shooters in broad daylight surrounded by hundreds of people with the high possibility of leaving behind incriminating physical evidence?

Think, man!


Forget the CIA, just consider the Secret Service. In almost any conspiracy that involves framing Oswald, the Secret Service has to be involved. After all, it was two Secret Service agents, Forrest Sorrels and Winston Lawson that selected the motorcade route that went through Dealy Plaza. Plus it was another Kennedy insider, Ken O'Donnell that selected the Trade Mart for JFK's speech making going through Dealy Plaza an option. If there were high ranking Secret Service agents involved in the conspiracy, why not just spike his drug cocktail as you suggest? President Kennedy was on a truly amazing amount of drugs for his various health issues and any fatal reaction could have easily been passed off as a tragic mistake. If there was any outcry it would been have been easy enough to blame his doctors and it doesn't even look like murder, just a careless, tragic mistake.
 
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Forget the CIA, just consider the Secret Service. In almost any conspiracy that involves framing Oswald, the Secret Service has to be involved. After all, it was two Secret Service agents, Forrest Sorrels and Winston Lawson that selected the motorcade route that went through Dealy Plaza. Plus it was another Kennedy insider, Ken O'Donnell that selected the Trade Mart for JFK's speech making going through Dealy Plaza an option. If there were high ranking Secret Service agents involved in the conspiracy, why not just spike his drug cocktail as you suggest? President Kennedy was on a truly amazing amount of drugs for his various health issues and any fatal reaction could have easily been passed off as a tragic mistake. If there was any outcry it would been have been easy enough to blame his doctors and it doesn't even look like murder, just a careless, tragic mistake.

It's not so easy to both guarantee death by poisoning and conceal it.
 
It's not so easy to both guarantee death by poisoning and conceal it.


Who said anything about poisoning him?

According to the New York Times http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/17/us/in-jfk-file-hidden-illness-pain-and-pills.html?pagewanted=all

The records show that Kennedy variously took codeine, Demerol and methadone for pain; Ritalin, a stimulant; meprobamate and librium for anxiety; barbiturates for sleep; thyroid hormone; and injections of a blood derivative, gamma globulin, presumably to combat infections.


How hard would it be for the evil forces of THEY to replace one his pill bottles of methadone or codeine with another one that had double the dose if they were already subverting and recruiting high ranking agents in the Secret Service? Either it goes down as an accidental overdose, or if the "mistake" is discovered it's reported as a tragic miscommunication between the doctor and the pharmacy or a mistake by the pharmacy.

Now, I'm sure even without checking that were safeguards in place to prevent that sort of thing from happening, I'm pretty confident in saying that they didn't just run to the corner drugstore for the President's prescriptions. But how hard would it be to subvert those safeguards? Especially when you consider that THEY were able to get Oswald a job at the TSBD, fake and forge all the evidence that linked Oswald to his rifle, arrange a presidential trip to Dallas, make sure the president was going to give his speech at the Trade Mart, make sure the motorcade route would go through Dealy Plaza, arrange for however many assassins the conspiracy theory du jour required, had all the people necessary in the Secret Service, the FBI, the Dallas PD and so to cover up any evidence that didn't fit the official story and so on and so on....

I'm not saying it's necessarily a plausible assassination theory, but I am saying it would be much easier than all the current conspiracy claims out there.
 
Who said anything about poisoning him?

According to the New York Times http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/17/us/in-jfk-file-hidden-illness-pain-and-pills.html?pagewanted=all




How hard would it be for the evil forces of THEY to replace one his pill bottles of methadone or codeine with another one that had double the dose if they were already subverting and recruiting high ranking agents in the Secret Service? Either it goes down as an accidental overdose, or if the "mistake" is discovered it's reported as a tragic miscommunication between the doctor and the pharmacy or a mistake by the pharmacy.

Now, I'm sure even without checking that were safeguards in place to prevent that sort of thing from happening, I'm pretty confident in saying that they didn't just run to the corner drugstore for the President's prescriptions. But how hard would it be to subvert those safeguards? Especially when you consider that THEY were able to get Oswald a job at the TSBD, fake and forge all the evidence that linked Oswald to his rifle, arrange a presidential trip to Dallas, make sure the president was going to give his speech at the Trade Mart, make sure the motorcade route would go through Dealy Plaza, arrange for however many assassins the conspiracy theory du jour required, had all the people necessary in the Secret Service, the FBI, the Dallas PD and so to cover up any evidence that didn't fit the official story and so on and so on....

I'm not saying it's necessarily a plausible assassination theory, but I am saying it would be much easier than all the current conspiracy claims out there.

Because having a short platoon of shooters in public is so much more fun and sexier, and if not for that a bunch of half-assed authors would have to find another subject to milk.
 
Because having a short platoon of shooters in public is so much more fun and sexier, and if not for that a bunch of half-assed authors would have to find another subject to milk.

Or it was to "send a message", which is always my favorite excuse for them concocting such a hair brained scheme.
 
Who said anything about poisoning him?

According to the New York Times http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/17/us/in-jfk-file-hidden-illness-pain-and-pills.html?pagewanted=all




How hard would it be for the evil forces of THEY to replace one his pill bottles of methadone or codeine with another one that had double the dose if they were already subverting and recruiting high ranking agents in the Secret Service? Either it goes down as an accidental overdose, or if the "mistake" is discovered it's reported as a tragic miscommunication between the doctor and the pharmacy or a mistake by the pharmacy.

Now, I'm sure even without checking that were safeguards in place to prevent that sort of thing from happening, I'm pretty confident in saying that they didn't just run to the corner drugstore for the President's prescriptions. But how hard would it be to subvert those safeguards? Especially when you consider that THEY were able to get Oswald a job at the TSBD, fake and forge all the evidence that linked Oswald to his rifle, arrange a presidential trip to Dallas, make sure the president was going to give his speech at the Trade Mart, make sure the motorcade route would go through Dealy Plaza, arrange for however many assassins the conspiracy theory du jour required, had all the people necessary in the Secret Service, the FBI, the Dallas PD and so to cover up any evidence that didn't fit the official story and so on and so on....

I'm not saying it's necessarily a plausible assassination theory, but I am saying it would be much easier than all the current conspiracy claims out there.

Or just get one expert marksman with a weapon into the TSBD with a good rifle, and frame Oswald for owning that weapon with the same type of paper trail they used to frame him for owning the war-surplus Mannlicher-Carcano.

Then they don't have to plant bullets in Parkland, plant shells in the TSBD, swap the Mauser for a MC, plant fragments in the limo, alter JFK's body, kill witnesses, control the autopsy, alter the autopsy x-rays and photos, edit the Zapruder film... ad nauseum.

Apparently the conspirators overlooked this obvious and simple solution.

All the evidence points to that good rifle, and therefore to Oswald because that's the only weapon that was actually used in the assassination, and the paper trail points to him. And every bullet, shell, or fragment recovered will point to that weapon. All these other issues disappear because they frame Oswald for owning a good weapon.

Or maybe the Mark Lane's of the world would still rise from the gutter and write books like RUSH TO JUDGMENT to take claims out of context and twist what witnesses said to argue that all the evidence was planted to make a buck.

And 53 years later we'd still be listening to conspiracy buffs argue for a conspiracy because they read a couple of conspiracy books instead of the primary evidence.

Hank
 
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Or just get one expert marksman with a weapon into the TSBD with a good rifle, and frame Oswald for owning that weapon with the same type of paper trail they used to frame him for owning the war-surplus Mannlicher-Carcano.

Then they don't have to plant bullets in Parkland, plant shells in the TSBD, swap the Mauser for a MC, plant fragments in the limo, alter JFK's body, kill witnesses, control the autopsy, alter the autopsy x-rays and photos, edit the Zapruder film... ad nauseum.

Apparently the conspirators overlooked this obvious and simple solution.

All the evidence points to that good rifle, and therefore to Oswald because that's the only weapon that was actually used in the assassination, and the paper trail points to him. And every bullet, shell, or fragment recovered will point to that weapon. All these other issues disappear because they frame Oswald for owning a good weapon.

Or maybe the Mark Lane's of the world would still rise from the gutter and write books like RUSH TO JUDGMENT to take claims out of context and twist what witnesses said to argue that all the evidence was planted to make a buck.

And 53 years later we'd still be listening to conspiracy buffs argue for a conspiracy because they read a couple of conspiracy books instead of the primary evidence.

Hank


The problem with that, though, is that even the best snipers in the world couldn't make that shot! :D
 
Although my own father was conditioned by his conformation bias to assume that the Mafia had hit JFK, when he eventually saw the movie JFK all the "back and to the left" nonsense only reinforced his belief that Garrison was a chump - our folks came from NOLA and Garrison was a laughing stock long before he stuck his nose into the assassination.

My post on Garrison from three years back:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9652361&postcount=22
 
Although my own father was conditioned by his conformation bias to assume that the Mafia had hit JFK...

Stealing "conformation bias" to use in the abiogenesis thread to mean a propensity for molecules to adopt energetically favorable structures while retaining relevant pseudo-evolutionary options, even though it more accurately describes dog show judging.
 
Stealing "conformation bias" to use in the abiogenesis thread to mean a propensity for molecules to adopt energetically favorable structures while retaining relevant pseudo-evolutionary options, even though it more accurately describes dog show judging.

It's a Sicilian genetics thing...
 
.

JFK assassination couldn't be done by one person? Hell, I've been to Dealey Plaza many times -- last weekend, for example -- and scoff at the claims of "an impossible shot." It's less than 150 yards, the limo going downhill at maybe, what, 15 miles per hour in a straight line, from an elevated shooting perch. In other words, shooting DOWN at a target going DOWN. It's not much more difficult than shooting at a paper target on a backstop from a shooting bench. Easy shot. It took three tries because of nerves.

Beanbag

Keeping a car going15 miles per hour in a straight line, for eight seconds, while under fire is probably a lot more difficult than you think it is. My guess is that it would require some special training. It's not the kind of thing that's a natural reaction. For instance, Jackie climbed out the back of the car before she was physically restrained by people walking behind the limo.

This and the six posts following were moved from a general thread.
Posted By: zooterkin
 
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Keeping a car going15 miles per hour in a straight line, for eight seconds, while under fire is probably a lot more difficult than you think it is. My guess is that it would require some special training.

So that's your guess, is it? Drivers of presidential limos received special training to ensure they would continue driving at a walking pace in the event they realise their car is under fire?

Thank you for that insight.
 
Best local scenario (Dallas) would be to flip a tanker of anhydrous ammonia on the Woodall-Rogers elevated roadway around noon some workday. All it needs is one person willing to ignore the hazardous material routing signs.

One THINKING person can do an incredible amount of damage with little material.

JFK assassination couldn't be done by one person? Hell, I've been to Dealey Plaza many times -- last weekend, for example -- and scoff at the claims of "an impossible shot." It's less than 150 yards, the limo going downhill at maybe, what, 15 miles per hour in a straight line, from an elevated shooting perch. In other words, shooting DOWN at a target going DOWN. It's not much more difficult than shooting at a paper target on a backstop from a shooting bench. Easy shot. It took three tries because of nerves.

Beanbag

You have to believe in at least two bullets that went down and then went up. The bullet that pierced near the EOP area of the head and the bullet that pierced his back. I can not see how people ever accepted the "cowlick" entrance wound. It looks like a dried drop of blood or some minor scalp injury.
 
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Keeping a car going15 miles per hour in a straight line, for eight seconds, while under fire is probably a lot more difficult than you think it is. My guess is that it would require some special training. It's not the kind of thing that's a natural reaction. For instance, Jackie climbed out the back of the car before she was physically restrained by people walking behind the limo.
The driver probably didn't realize what was happening and just kept on cruising (like he was trained).

Take any reasonably experienced shooter, put them in Dealey Plaza, show them the window and the two marks on the street supposedly showing where the car was when the bullets impacted, and they'd tell you "easy shot."

The "magic" zigzag bullet that hit Connelly and Kennedy is easily explained: the presidential limo was designed with a special lower front seat on the passenger side so the occupant wouldn't block the crowd's view of the rear seat occupants (it shows in the limo photos).

All you have to do is go and look. The photos and documentaries make Dealey Plaza look HUGE: it's actually kinda small.

Beanbag
 
From reunion tower.

picture.php
 
Thank you for this wonderful image. It REALLY shows it all.

Like I said: small.

Fifth floor window shooting DOWN. The road slopes DOWN. The black car in the photo is (roughly) next to where the "third" shot was fired.

Dealey Plaza is smaller than a football field. The only confusing part of this picture is that the trees in front of the book depository have grown taller, so they would block a shot today. Back then in 63, they wouldn't.

Beanbag
 
Thank you for this wonderful image. It REALLY shows it all.

Like I said: small.

Fifth floor window shooting DOWN. The road slopes DOWN. The black car in the photo is (roughly) next to where the "third" shot was fired.

Dealey Plaza is smaller than a football field. The only confusing part of this picture is that the trees in front of the book depository have grown taller, so they would block a shot today. Back then in 63, they wouldn't.

Beanbag


No problem, it's in one of my albums here, from when I was there in like 2011 or so.

It's basically just a bit harder than shooting someone in the parking lot next to the building. Heck, if you look at the two lots right next to the depository that's about the size of the whole plaza area.
 
Start here, with the 26 volumes of testimony and exhibits.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/contents.htm

Totally free. You won't have to spend a friggin' penny to educate yourself. It cost me $2500 at the PRESIDENTS BOX BOOKSHOP back in the early 1980's to buy a complete set. I got tired of going to the NY CITY main library every Saturday and taking notes. And that was back when $2500 was a pretty decent sum of money.

Seriously. Start there. Don't read another thing by anyone until you educate yourself on what the witnesses (both eye and expert) actually said. Stop getting your education on this subject through a conspiracy filter.

Hank

HSienzant, I took your advice and bought the 26 volumes. When I saw the Rydberg drawings, I saw that a small bullet hole on the back of Kennedy's skull was located near the External occipital protuberance, and realized that that hole was too low to have exited out of the top-right side of the head. They even drew him leaning over during the headshot when he obviously isn't in the Zapruder film. I then burned the volumes because they were obviously garbage.
 
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HSienzant, I took your advice and bought the 26 volumes. When I saw the Rydberg drawings, I saw that a small bullet hole on the back of Kennedy's skull was located near the External occipital protuberance, and realized that that hole was too low to have exited out of the top-right side of the head. They even drew him leaning over during the headshot when he obviously isn't in the Zapruder film. I then burned the volumes because they were obviously garbage.

You have hand waved any evidence that directly refutes your assertions so I'm not surprised.
 
HSienzant, I took your advice and bought the 26 volumes. When I saw the Rydberg drawings, I saw that a small bullet hole on the back of Kennedy's skull was located near the External occipital protuberance, and realized that that hole was too low to have exited out of the top-right side of the head. They even drew him leaning over during the headshot when he obviously isn't in the Zapruder film. I then burned the volumes because they were obviously garbage.

So, you thought burning books, without reading how that conclusion was reached, was the way to go?

Well done. You have just suggested that you will go to extreme lengths to avoid confronting you predetermined conclusions.
 
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