Did you have a link on that information?
 |
I'm back, after bowing out earlier because I didn't see this debate going anywhere. I didn't see any willingness on Roxdog/conspiracybeliever's part to ANY fact-checking, which in my experience is normal for him and for other CTers.
And you know what? I hate doing their homework for them. Huntster, I have a question for you: why don't you have the information I'm about to give you, which took me 15 minutes to find and cull from two sources?
Why?
Pardon my French, but it's your G.D. conspiracy theory, so why do you expect others to do your homework? This is not my extraordinary claim to prove, it's yours. The whole "early warning" argument seems to be very important to OK City CTers. So wouldn't it be a good idea to find out if any BATF personnel were in the building when the bomb blew? You were given leads earlier: a phone call to the OK City BATF, and a snippet from a Salon article, both indicatiing that several BATF personnel were in the building when the bomb blew. There must be a several hundred CT websites that say otherwise. Isn't that important? Why didn't you follow up?
This is about the 30th time in the past 10 days that I've done fact checking for a CTer (I'm not really calling you a CTer, except in this case. I don't know you.) because they were adamant in their opinions but wouldn't do any research of their own. I'm having a hard time understanding what the mental block is. Why argue a point but not be willing to do the simplest fact checking to see if it's true? |
I'm not some computer search wiz kid. It's Google.com, that's all. The same tool everyone has. Okay, i've vented enough.
Out of a staff of ten, there were five BATF personnel in the Murrah building when the bomb hit: one supervisor, one agent, two inspectors, and a secretary. Two agents had come and gone on normal business that morning. Most of the other agents were working outside the building. One was home with a bad back. Supervisor McCauley was in an elevator that fell 6 stories, but he wasn't injured. Inspectors Buster and Staggs were seriously injured. There are photos of Agent Franey inside the building, trapped on the 9th floor after the bomb blew. After being trapped for about an hour and a half, he and and BATF secretary Rowden escaped with minor injuries. So, if a warning was given to the ATF, it didn't get to these five. (or to the other two agents who had come and gone, unless they knew the exact minute the bomb would blow.)
Here's the transcript of the direct, cross and redirect examination of Agent Franey in the Timothy McVeigh trial. There is no disagreement between the prosecution and the defense on this issue. Franey describes where the other agents were, and no, they weren't all having coffee together.
I've bolded some of the more relevant text. The full transcript of that day is
here.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. BEHENNA:
Q. Are you employed, Agent Franey?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Where do you work?
A. The United States Treasury Department, the Bureau of
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.
Q. And how long have you worked for the ATF?
A. Since July 5 of 1988.
Q. Where are you stationed, or where is your office located?
A. I work in the Oklahoma City field office.
Q. And how long have you been in that field office?
A. Since I hired on with ATF.
Q. Do you have college?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Where did you attend college?
A. I attended Sam Houston State University in Huntsville,
Texas. I graduated in 1986 with a degree in criminal justice.
Q. After your graduation from college, did you go immediately
into the ATF, or did you have some other employment?
A. No, I did not. I worked for the Port Aransas Police
Department through '87. Then I was hired by the U.S.
Department of Health and Human Services, Office of Inspector
General, which is their investigative branch. I worked there
until July of 1988, when I was hired by ATF.
Q. What is your job with the ATF?
A. As a criminal investigator or special agent assigned to the
Oklahoma City field office, I investigate crimes that come
under our jurisdiction that occur in the Western Judicial
District of Oklahoma, or the western half of the state, and a
small portion of the eastern part of the state.
Q. And those violations would include what?
A. They would include violations of the federal firearms laws,
explosive laws, arson laws.
Q. Where was the ATF located on April 19, 1995?
A. It was located in the alpha -- Alfred E. Murrah Federal
Luke Franey - Direct
Building at 200 N.W. 5th in Oklahoma City.
Q. On what floor was the ATF office located?
A. Our office was on the 9th floor, in Suite 965.
Q. Let me show you what's already been admitted as
Government's Exhibit 952.
MS. BEHENNA: And with the marshal's assistance, your
Honor, I would like to put the 9th floor up on the easel for
the ease --
THE COURT: All right.
We'll have to bring it forward enough so the jurors
can see it.
BY MS. BEHENNA:
Q. Agent Franey, you have in front of you --
MS. BEHENNA: Toward Luke?
MR. RYAN: Towards the witness.
MS. BEHENNA: Could you move it over to the witness
stand a little bit more.
THE COURT: Well, now the jury can't see it.
MS. BEHENNA: May I?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MS. BEHENNA:
Q. Agent Franey, you have a light pen in front of you, if you
would like to use that, or there is a pen that you can actually
mark on the computer with. Can you describe for the jury the
ATF office space that was located there on the 9th floor of the
Luke Franey - Direct
Murrah Building.
A. Yes, ma'am. Our office here, which is highlighted in -- it
would be in the southeast corner of the 9th floor of the
building. I'll just touch it. There we go.
That would be the entrance to our office, which was
our outside waiting room.
If you enter through this door here, which came into
the secretary's bay as you proceeded down the hallway here, you
would find our supervisor's office, Alex McCauley at the time.
If you continue down the hall, you would come to Special Agent
Donald Gillispie's office. Continuing eastbound, you would hit
Special Agent Harry Eberhardt and Mark Michalic's office.
If you continue down again, the last office on the
southeast side would be the office of Special Agent Delbert
Canopp, Tim Kelly, and Karen Simpson. There were actually
three agents that worked out of that office.
If you go to the end of the hallway, there would be
our computer room, where our LAN system was set up.
Directly north of that in here would be our outer
vault and then our evidence vault.
If you went westward back down the hall, you would
come to my office right here, Special Agent Darrell Edwards'
office here. We had a large conference room here, and then
this last office would be our fingerprinting room and
refrigerator room.
Luke Franey - Direct
Q. I believe there is a button on that pen. If you will keep
pushing it, all those -- there you go.
Approximately how many employees worked at the ATF
office?
A. There were 10 employees in the law enforcement office and
there were three employees who were inspectors, and they worked
on the -- actually the east end -- or the west end of the
building down there on the other side of the Secret Service
office.
Q. Can you point that out for the jury?
A. Yes, down in here. They actually had three inspectors that
worked there: Vernon Buster, Jim Staggs and Bruce Anderson.
Q. Is that what's called the compliance section of ATF?
A. That's correct. They handled the licensing and compliance
for alcohol, tobacco, firearms, and explosives.
Q. And as criminal investigators of the ATF, agents like
yourself, you investigate criminal violations, much that you
described, or as you described earlier in our testimony?
A. That's correct.
Q. The compliance section does something different?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Can you tell the jury what you were doing the evening of
April 18, 1995?
A. On April 18, 1995, myself and several other agents in our
office were working a joint investigation with the Norman
Police Department on an individual by the name of Anthony Wolf.
Anthony Wolf was a convicted felon, and we were at that time
making undercover purchases of firearms and narcotics from
Mr. Wolf. We worked late into the evening, actually into the
early morning hours of April 19, arriving back at home at about
1:30 that morning.
Q. Did you go into the office the morning of April 19?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Do you remember what time you got to the office?
A. Yes. I got there early. The night before, I talked with
my supervisor, and he instructed me to obtain an arrest warrant
on Mr. Wolf; so I arrived at the ATF office at approximately
7:30 that morning.
Q. And you went in to work on the arrest warrant?
A. That's correct.
Q. Did you see any other ATF employees the morning of
April 19?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Can you tell the jury who you saw?
A. That morning when I arrived at work, I was the first one
there. The first person I heard come to the office besides me
was our secretary, Valerie Rowden. I didn't actually see her
that morning until after the bombing, but she was surprised
that someone was there before she was. And she called out to
see who was in the office; and I, of course, was back in the
far east end and hollered that it was me, I was preparing an
arrest warrant. So she went on with her normal morning
procedures.
Shortly after that, my supervisor, Alex McCauley, came
in; and he and I were working around the office and discussing
me preparing and obtaining the arrest warrant.
Shortly after that, Harry Eberhardt came in the
office, and he and I had a brief conversation. He said he had
to run across the street because he had a jury out on an arson
trial and -- in the Federal Courthouse that was just south of
the Murrah Building; and he advised that he was going to run by
the credit union before he went.
And he left shortly before 9:00.
Q. Where was the credit union located?
A. The credit union was in the Murrah Building on the 3d
floor.
Q. Do you know where Don Gillispie was the morning of
April 19?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Where was he?
A. He was in Ponca City, testifying at a state arson trial.
Q. What about Delbert Canopp?
A. Delbert Canopp was actually on his way back to Oklahoma
City. He had picked up a witness for the federal grand jury,
and he was on his way back to the courthouse with the witness.
Q. You didn't see either one of those guys in the office that
morning?
A. That morning, no, ma'am.
Q. What about Mark Michalic?
A. Mark Michalic worked late with me the evening before, and
he was on his way into the office.
Q. What about Karen Simpson?
A. Karen Simpson was actually in the Federal Courthouse just
south of the building. She was working with Delbert Canopp on
the investigation where they were presenting witnesses to the
federal grand jury.
Q. Tim Kelly?
A. Tim Kelly was in Ponca City working with Agent Gillispie
doing the state arson trial.
Q. Vernon Buster: Who was he?
A. Vernon Buster was in the ATF compliance office, which is on
the west end of the 9th floor.
Q. What about Jim Staggs?
A. Jim Staggs was also in the compliance office.
Q. Bruce Anderson?
A. Bruce Anderson was -- he was not in the office. He was on
his way to do a compliance inspection.
Q. What about Darrell Edwards?
A. Darrell Edwards was at home. He had worked late with me
the night before. And he was shot in the line of duty several
years ago and has a lot of problems with his neck. And I had
called him on the phone right before 9:00 to tell him he needed
to get in there because we were going to arrest Mr. Wolf if I
obtained the arrest warrant.
Q. And you stated that you called him just before 9:00 on the
morning of April 19.
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Can you tell the jury what happened shortly after 9:00?
A. I was talking to Agent Edwards on the phone, sitting at my
desk, which is going to be right in that area right there. My
desk actually abutted up to the common wall with DEA. I was
talking with Darrell about executing the arrest warrant on
Mr. Wolf, if we obtained it.
We were having a conversation relating to that when I
heard an explosion or a loud bang. I heard the girls in the
DEA office scream.
Q. What girls are you referring to?
A. The employees, the female support staff that worked for
DEA.
Q. Did you know them?
A. Yes, I did.
Yeah, you know, most of the agencies in Oklahoma City
are field offices, they're not division offices; and on the 9th
floor, we all worked together on various occasions, and we also
celebrated together holidays and whatnot. Everybody was a
small outpost (sic), so we all knew each other fairly well on
the 9th floor. And I know Carol was in there. Her desk was
basically right across the wall from me. And we could beat on
the wall back and forth and talk; so I knew -- I could hear
them that morning when I was at my desk preparing the
warrant -- I could hear people in there talking. Specifically,
I didn't know who it was; but I could hear the conversation
through the wall. They were laughing and joking. But I heard
the loud bang, I heard all the girls scream; and then I heard a
loud rumbling sound.
At that point, I didn't know what was going on. And
it happened so fast, but I remember the three distinct actions.
Q. What happened to the phone?
A. I was talking on the phone with Darrell. After the
rumbling noise, that's when everything came apart. I remember
the walls coming in, the ceiling falling down. My most
distinct memory is the fluorescent lighting fixture above my
desk falling at me, and I threw up my arm to attempt to block
it.
The next thing I remember is just being hit with a
very strong gust of wind or a pressure blast. And the next
thing I remember, I ended up back in this hallway, in this area
right here, kind of halfway in my office and halfway in the
hallway, covered with some rubble.
I really didn't know what happened at that point. I
looked around, clouds of dust and smoke in the office.
I could hear people yelling and screaming. I had no
idea what had happened.
Q. So what did you do? Did you stay there? Did you get up?
A. First thing I did -- I still had the phone in my hand, what
was left of it, the phone and the cord -- and you know, I mean,
there was nothing on there -- calling for Darrell on the phone.
I didn't know what had happened.
I threw that down, and I jumped up. And I could run
to about this point right here, you know, about three or four
steps; and that's where the building collapsed, basically.
Q. You could see that it was gone?
A. Oh, yes. I could see the drop-off straight down to the
rubble. At that point, I could see out the north side of the
building.
Q. What did you see as you looked out the north side of the
building?
A. What I remember the most was a big wall of orange flame
that was coming out from where the Athenian Building was across
the street.
Q. What else did you do?
A. At that point, I mean I didn't think I could get out of the
building because the -- the way it kind of ended like --
Q. Are you drawing where the floor was?
A. Yes, ma'am. I'm drawing on here where I could get to; and
at that point, I couldn't get out of the building. The floor
basically dropped off to all the way to the south retaining
wall; so I just had kind of had like a little area I could get
in.
Q. And the little area is that east end of the building that
you're --
A. Yes, ma'am. That's correct.
Q. Why don't you go ahead and take all those dots off, Agent
Franey, and we'll do it again.
A. Okay.
Q. Go ahead and just mark again where you remember the
building -- the floor was.
A. Okay. At the time, that's what I could see right there,
was this was my position in this area back here, was where I
could walk around in.
Q. Did you see Alex McCauley?
A. At that time, I did not.
Q. What about Valerie Rowden?
A. No, ma'am, I did not see them.
Q. I assume you attempted to get out of the building and you
could not. What did you do next?
A. At that point, I was confused to really what had happened.
I performed a -- just checking myself, you know. I didn't know
if I was injured or not. I had some minor scrapes and cuts but
no major injuries. I walked around. I looked out the south
side of the building. I could see people running up to the
building, you know; and there were people down on the bottom
floor.
I really couldn't tell what had happened or how bad it
was at that point.
I found in the rubble in the office a handheld radio
that we utilize; and I turned the radio on, and I began calling
for help, see if I could get anybody to respond.
Q. What did you say?
A. I said that somebody blew up the building and if anybody
can hear this, they needed to get in there because we needed
help. There was a lot of people hurt. I could hear people
screaming.
At that time, I didn't know how bad it was.
Agent Michalic was coming into work, and he was right
at the point work where our radios were just kind of --
sometimes he could hear me, sometimes he couldn't. And he kept
saying, you know, What are you saying, what are you saying?
Okay, somebody, the building is gone, it's destroyed;
you guys need to get in here.
And I think at that point, he started realizing just
through my voice about how urgent was.
Agent Canopp came in -- he was on the radio. He was
on the way bringing a witness over to the grand jury, and he
asked me what was going on. And I told him something bad
happened at the building and he needed to get down there.
Q. After you made the call on the radio, did you continue to
walk around the office, what was left of the ATF office?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What did you do next?
A. I found an evidence poster board, something similar to
that, that we had used at a previous trial. And I flipped it
over on the back and wrote "ATF trapped, 9th floor," put it in
the window, over here in this office looking out over the front
side of the building, which is the south side of the building.
Q. Agent Franey, would you mind clicking the pen and getting
those lines off; and let me show you a photograph that I don't
believe has been introduced. This won't go to the jury.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: What's the number?
BY MS. BEHENNA:
Q. Let me show you Government's Exhibit 1012 and ask you if
you can identify that.
A. Yes, I can.
Q. And what is that?
A. That is a photograph of the south side of Alfred E. Murrah
Building that -- after the bombing.
Q. That's the plaza level?
A. That is correct.
MS. BEHENNA: I move for the admission of Government's
Exhibit 1012, your Honor.
MR. JONES: No objection your Honor.
THE COURT: 1012 is received.
BY MS. BEHENNA:
Q. Let me show you a closeup. In particular, let me have you
look to the window section. And can you tell the jury what
that is?
A. Yes, ma'am. That appears to be a photograph of the top
three floors of the southeast portion of the Murrah Building;
and that white sign there appears to be the sign that I placed
in the window.
Q. That is the ATF space, the south side of the ATF space?
A. That's correct. This top floor here is.
Q. Let me have you look at Government's Exhibit 976. And I
don't believe this has been introduced.
Can you identify that?
A. Yes, I can.
Q. What is that?
A. That is photograph of me.
MS. BEHENNA: Your Honor, I move for the admission of
Government's Exhibit 976.
MR. JONES: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: 976 received.
BY MS. BEHENNA:
Q. Can you tell the jury what they're seeing?
A. That is a photograph that was taken the morning of the
bombing. I'm standing in the -- what's left of our offices
there looking out the back window.
Q. The south side?
A. I'm sorry. The south side of the building, looking over
the plaza level. The sign to the right there is the sign that
I made to put in the window, hoping that someone would be able
to get up there and get me out.
Looks like I'm either talking or yelling to people
down on the plaza level.
Q. Were some of your agents down to plaza level?
A. Yes. I mean at that time, I could see Alex McCauley, my
supervisor, and also Valerie Rowden. Prior to me being able to
see them on the plaza, I thought that they were killed or lost
in the explosion. I saw them down there. I also saw Agent
Michalic and Agent Edwards. I saw some of the agents from DEA
that were down there.
Q. Did you sometime that morning while you were waiting to be
rescued look for survivors?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Can you tell the jury about that?
A. When I realized I couldn't get out and I was in there, and
I called on the radio and advised the agents that I could get
ahold of that we needed help. I remembered at that time
hearing the screams of the girls in DEA. I couldn't get out
the front way to get to their office; so I went back to our
evidence vault area, which is on the east end almost, where the
letter F is.
Q. Agent Franey, I went ahead and put up on the screen for you
the 9th floor floor plan. Go ahead. I'm sorry.
A. Okay. I came through here. I entered our outer evidence
vault. I climbed up through what was left of the ceiling on
some pipes and dropped down here into our evidence vault.
I proceeded to this wall right here and kicked the
shelves out and kicked a hole into what was left of the DEA
office.
When I got through, I realized that there wasn't
really a lot left of the DEA office. It -- best I can
remember, it was like this. There was just a very small
portion of the office there that I could get in.
You know, I looked for the girls and I called out a
little bit verbally to see if I could get any responses. I
thought at that time they might have been trapped in the rubble
there, but I realized that that wasn't the case.
Q. Couldn't find them?
A. No, ma'am.
Q. What did you do next?
A. I climbed back through the hole and into our evidence
vault, back into the little island I could get around on back
in here, and talked to Agent Michalic on the radio, advised him
that, you know, I didn't find anybody over in DEA and it looks
like they were all lost.
And he advised me to stay away from that portion of
the building at that time. On the ground, I guess they were
getting reports that it was very unstable, wanted me to stay
back in that corner.
So at that point, for an hour, hour and a half, I was
kind of stuck in that office. There were several escape plans
they were trying. They had tried to get a helicopter to come
in from the National Guard. It was going to sling-load me out
of the window, but they cancelled that due to the dangers, you
know, of knocking debris down on rescuers or hurting injured
people. They just kept on saying, Hang on, we're going to get
you out, we're going to get you out.
Q. How long were you in the Murrah Building?
A. Till approximately 10:30.
Q. Before we move on and talk about that, let me show you
Government's Exhibit 968, which I believe has already been
admitted. That's the north side of the Murrah Building.
A. That's correct.
Q. Do you see it?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And can you with your pointer show the jury -- I mean,
you've drawn it on the floor plan. Can you show the jury where
you looked for the DEA girls?
A. It would be in this area here, behind that -- the tarp or
roof that is --
Q. Is that part of the roof that's hanging down?
A. Yes, ma'am. That's correct.
Q. You stated earlier that you were in the building for about
an hour and a half?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. What happened later that morning?
A. Well, I saw several people coming up to the 9th floor.
They were looking for survivors, and I talked to Larry Morgan
with IRS CID. He had come somewhere around 10:00. He had come
up to the 9th floor to the west side of the big crevice there.
I talked to him briefly; and he said, "Hang on, we're going to
try to get you out." You know, obviously, couldn't get across
the hole there; but they were working on things.
A short time after that -- I don't know exactly how
long -- I heard a bunch of loud screams coming from the south
side of the building out on the plaza level, ran to the window,
and looked. And I could see a large group of people, all the
rescuers and whatnot running from the building.
I became alarmed at that time. Obviously, it didn't
appear to be something good.
I got on the radio and I was calling to Michalic.
Q. Agent Michalic?
A. The agent on the ground that I had radio contact with, and
I asked him what the problem was.
Q. What did you learn?
A. I learned that some of the rescuers had believed they saw a
bomb and that they thought it was going to go off and that I
should find something sturdy to hang onto.
Q. What did you do?
A. I mean, I was -- the first -- when the bomb went off the
first time, it happened so fast, you didn't have time to get
scared.
When he told me that and I realized at that point I
didn't think I could go anywhere -- you know, I was at the one
little island I could get around on. And when he said that, I
mean, it was just like someone reaches in and grabs your heart
and squishes it, because I had nowhere to go if there was
another one. I didn't really think I could do anything about
it.
Q. Were you scared?
A. Oh, yes. Very scared.
Q. What did you do?
A. And at that point, you just -- I just made a decision that
I'd rather -- I'd rather die falling off the building than go
through something like that again; so I got as far as I could,
as close to the crevice as I could get, and started kicking a
hole in the wall and got through --
Q. Let me go back to the floor plan.
A. Okay.
Q. This is Government's Exhibit 952.
A. The crevice started -- the big crater started somewhere in
here. And I could get to about right here; so I kicked a hole
in that wall and got as far as I could till the floor stopped;
and then I crawled on the outside of the building onto the
window ledge and proceeded down the window ledge on the outside
of the building, holding onto the frames and whatnot, and came
down here till the floor started again, jumped in on the floor,
climbed over some rubble and got -- found this stairwell over
here.
When I got to that stairwell there -- I mean at that
time I was still under the impression that there was a bomb;
that it was going to go off. So I went as fast as I could down
the stairwell. I remember when I was running down the
stairwell holding onto the handrail and it being covered in
blood, the floor covered in blood -- sliding, going down some
of the landings and stairways -- from people that had been
carried out or made it out before me.
I got down to the bottom floor and came out; and at
that time, people had already started coming back up to the
building to resume the rescue effort.
Q. Agent Franey, I want to put up Government's Exhibit 1012,
which we previously talked about.
And can you just point for the jury where it is you
climbed on the outside of that window?
A. That would be this area right here.
Q. Is that ledge level?
A. No, ma'am, it's not.
Q. Can you tell the jury what it looks like?
A. It's at about 45 degree angle. It's pretty steep. Comes
at about like that.
Q. How did you stand on that?
A. As best as I could. I mean, I just realized -- I really
thought at that time that, you know, that obviously there was
another bomb. I mean, something happened the first time; so I
mean I was just going as fast as I could across that. I was
holding onto what was left of the window frames, you know, the
jagged glass and whatnot. I was just racing against the clock.
And I went across there as fast as I could. Didn't really
think about being how far up or how steep it was at that point.
I just tried not to look down.
Q. After you get down to the plaza level, do you realize that
you've been injured?
A. Yes. Some of the -- some of the marshals that were there
came up and grabbed me. I had some cuts on my head and my
hands. I was bleeding a little bit from the head, and they
brought me to the triage unit there and just wiped me up,
bandaged my hands there.
Q. Were there other ATF employees that were injured in that
building?
A. Yes, ma'am, there were.
Q. Do you know how many?
A. There were five employees in the building when the bomb
went off. Two of the employees were hurt severely, our two
compliance officers, Jim Staggs and Vernon Buster.
Jim Staggs received serious head wounds, bleeding very
badly. He was helped out of the building, as was Vernon
Buster, by DEA employee Regina Bonny. She got them downstairs.
They both spent extended periods of time in the hospital.
Our office manager, secretary, Valerie Rowden,
received fragmentation cuts from flying glass and
fragmentation; but she was not injured severely. I think she
just went to a triage unit down front, got Band-Aided up,
bandaged up, and went back to work.
MS. BEHENNA: Can I have just a moment, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
MS. BEHENNA: That's all we have, your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Jones, do you have questions?
MR. JONES: A few, your Honor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. JONES:
Q. Mr. Franey, I want to show you some photographs first
before I show them to the jury to see whether you can identify
them, because you and I have not met before, have we?
A. No, sir.
Q. You've not been interviewed by the defense?
A. No, sir.
Q. All right. So I simply want to show these and see if you
can identify them; and if you can, just tell me that you can
without further describing them.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So this is just for you and the Government and myself and
the Court.
Do you recognize this picture?
A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. All right. Do you recognize this one?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And do you recognize this one?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Now, if I may, let me go back to the first one; and I will
mark it and ask you to tell me what it is.
MR. JONES: If I could, your Honor, may I ask
Ms. Behenna what was the number of the photograph that you had
inside the ATF office?
MS. BEHENNA: 976.
MR. JONES: Then I'll just call this 976A.
You don't have a 976A, do you, Ms. Behenna?
MS. BEHENNA: No.
BY MR. JONES:
Q. I'll just call this Defendant's Exhibit 976A; and I'll show
it now to you, sir, first and ask if you can identify 976A.
And if so, would you tell me what it is.
THE COURT: 976, I think you said.
MR. JONES: I'm sorry. 976A.
BY MR. JONES:
Q. Can you identify this now?
A. This appears to be a photograph taken from the west side of
the ATF office after the bombing.
Q. All right. Are you sufficiently familiar with what's shown
in the photograph to show the jury on the chart where -- what
office this would be? By the chart, I mean the diagram behind
you, sir.
A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. All right. Can you just take the pointer and show there on
the chart or floor plan?
THE WITNESS: May I get up, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, you may.
THE WITNESS: I believe it's a photograph that would
show a view from this area here, looking this way into the ATF
office.
MR. JONES: All right. Thank you, sir.
Your Honor, I ask to publish this exhibit. First I
ask for its admission.
MS. BEHENNA: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: 976A is received and may be published.
BY MR. JONES:
Q. Now, as I understand it, Mr. Franey, your office would be
back beyond this way; and then a little bit to the north?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, let me ask you, please, if you can identify what we
will call as Defendant's Exhibit 976B. Can you identify that?
A. Yes, I can.
Q. What is 976B, sir?
A. That is also a photograph taken of the ATF office on the
9th floor after the bombing, taken from the west side, looking
eastward into the office.
Q. And 976B --
MS. BEHENNA: Your Honor, that's already being
published to the jury. I don't think it's been admitted.
MR. JONES: I'll move its admission.
BY MR. JONES:
Q. 976B is -- shows much of the same thing that's in 976A,
doesn't it, except it's taken from a little further back?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you can see there, can you not, the hole where the
blast of the explosion had blown away the floor?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right.
MR. JONES: Has this been published to the jury, your
Honor?
THE COURT: No. It hasn't been offered.
MR. JONES: I'm sorry. I thought that I offered it.
I move its admission.
MS. BEHENNA: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: It's received and may be published.
BY MR. JONES:
Q. Now, this area here is where the floor has been blown away.
Is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Thank you. Just to publish to me and to myself and the
Government and the Court, I have Defendant's Exhibit 976C and
ask if you can identify this.
A. Yes, sir, I can.
Q. And what is that, sir.
A. That is a photograph of the ATF office on the 9th floor of
the Murrah Building sometime after the bombing.
Q. And again, that's another picture of the same general area
as the first two except from a little different perspective.
Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right.
MR. JONES: I move the admission of Defendant's
Exhibit 976C.
MS. BEHENNA: No objection.
THE COURT: It's received and may be shown.
MR. JONES: Mr. Franey -- with the Court's permission,
may I ask Ms. Behenna -- rather than to use another exhibit,
may I simply see your exhibit that's the same as this?
All right. Thank you.
BY MR. JONES:
Q. I'm going to go ahead and show first just you and the Court
and the Government and myself, Mr. Franey, this photograph, so
I won't publish it to the jury yet, and ask you if you
recognize what I have marked as Defendant's Exhibit 976D.
A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. And that's you, isn't it?
A. That's correct.
MR. JONES: Your Honor, I move the admission of
Defendant's 976D.
MS. BEHENNA: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received.
BY MR. JONES:
Q. Mr. Franey, as I understand it, this is you in the window
and over here is the sign?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, are these the window ledges that you testified to that
you crawled on?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So you came out of which window? This one? Or another
one?
A. Actually, no, that's not correct. The wall where I was
standing there, right next to me, had a hole kicked through it,
as did the next wall down to the -- moving westward. And after
that wall was kicked through is when I went out on the window
ledge.
Q. All right. So the wall here -- this wall right here, you
kicked a hole in?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then this wall, you kicked a hole in. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then some -- you went beyond this way?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
MR. JONES: And then if I may see . . .
BY MR. JONES:
Q. Let me show you Government's Exhibit 1012, which has
already been admitted. Do you remember this photograph?
A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. Now, do I understand that you came out from the window
somewhere along here and walked across here to this area?
A. That's correct.
Q. All right. Now, that's at an angle of about 45 degrees on
the window ledge?
A. That's just an estimate; but yes, sir, that's what I
believe.
Q. And when you found this barrier or firewall, whatever we
want to call it, like right here -- do you see that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Actually, the one you encountered was here, wasn't it?
A. That's correct.
Q. And were you able to go from this 45-degree approximate
slant across into here?
A. Yes, sir; but I went on the inside of the building, on the
inside, stepped around the wall to the inside.
Q. What do you mean on the inside step?
A. Well, it's difficult to show from this angle, but I was
going on the window ledge here holding onto what was left of
the window frames. When I came to that concrete retaining wall
or firewall, however you referred to it, I did not go on the
outside of that. I went on the inside of the building,
stepping across back to the outside of the window frame.
Q. All right. So did you come across -- if I may show you
again 976C -- did you come across this inside ledge here where
my finger is?
A. That's correct.
Q. All right. So how much of your journey was actually on the
inside, as opposed to how much was on the outside?
A. The only part where I came inside there, crossing the gape,
or the hole, was where that concrete retaining wall was.
Q. Can you -- you passed one of those?
A. To the best of my knowledge.
Q. All right, sir. Now, you have identified the names of the
agents and employees of the ATF and where they were on the
morning of the 19th; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you remember the name of the arson trial in Ponca
City -- the name of the defendant?
A. I'm trying to recall.
No, sir, I can't recall it right now.
Q. It wasn't one of your cases, was it?
A. No, sir, it was not.
Q. Now, Mr. Franey, you indicated that you and perhaps other
agents had been out on the night of April 18 working on a joint
investigation with the Norman Police Department. Is that
correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And this was an investigation concerning a man named Wolf?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, was the DEA in any way involved in that investigation
along with you and the Norman Police Department?
A. No, sir.
Q. And were your activities with respect to that investigation
also in Norman, or were part of them in Oklahoma City?
A. They were actually in Norman.
Q. So you weren't anywhere in Oklahoma City on the night of
the 18th working on that investigation except if you might have
gone to your office?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, within the ATF office there or elsewhere in the
building, you indicated that there was an evidence locker over
on the -- would it be the east wall?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And is that that sort of long rectangular space there?
A. That's correct.
Q. What was stored in that room?
A. That room is going to be document evidence and firearm
evidence that was either seized or purchased or retained during
investigations.
Q. Were there any explosives stored in there?
A. No, sir, there were not.
Q. Did -- to your knowledge -- did the ATF have any explosives
stored anywhere in the building?
A. No. All explosive evidence by ATF is kept at the evidence
storage bunker, which is an explosive bunker shared with the
Oklahoma City Police Department's bomb squad, the highway
patrol, and the FBI, which is kept at the Oklahoma evidence
bunker at air depot, at I-240 in Oklahoma City.
Q. I'm sorry. And that's a considerable distance away from
the Alfred P. Murrah Building, isn't it?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, when this alarm was sounded or you heard that there
might be another bomb in the building or what was thought to be
a bomb, were you ever able to find out or satisfy yourself what
might have caused that commotion?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what was that, sir?
A. I believe at that time someone had either observed a box
with wires coming out of it, or it could have been an inert Law
rocket or a TOW missile that Customs had. I'm not sure exactly
which one it was.
Q. This was an inert missile that was not held by the ATF?
A. The TOW missile that was found? Yes, I believe so.
Q. It was held by another law enforcement agency?
A. That's correct.
Q. So far as you know, there was nothing in the ATF's
possession that could have contributed to the explosion.
A. No, that's correct. There was not.
Q. Now, these agents that you have identified here: Were any
of these individuals part of the ATF contingent at Mt. Carmel
outside Waco?
A. Yes, there was.
Q. Who were those?
A. Special Agent Mark Michalic and special Agent Harry
Eberhardt were involved in the execution of the search warrant
on February 28, 1993.
Q. Now, is Mr. Michalic still with the ATF?
Q. And is he in the Oklahoma City office?
A. He's actually assigned to Denver now.
Q. All right. And Mr. Eberhardt: Is he still with the ATF?
A. Yes, he is.
Q. And where is he assigned?
A. To the Oklahoma City field office.
MR. JONES: I don't believe I have any further
questions. Thank you, Mr. Franey.
THE COURT: Do you have any follow-up questions?
MS. BEHENNA: Just a couple.
THE COURT: All right.
MS. BEHENNA: Your Honor, if I could ask Mr. Jones for
the defense exhibits, since I didn't have copies of them. I
wanted to go over those pictures again.
THE COURT: Yes. All right.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. BEHENNA:
Q. Agent Franey, let me show you Defense Exhibit 976A. Was
that board there from the morning of April 19, 1995?
A. No, ma'am.
Q. Let me show you Defendant's Exhibit 976B. Is that the hole
you observed that morning?
A. Yes, it is. It -- that photograph -- you know, that is
after the rescue efforts had come and they cleared a lot of the
rubble out. But after the explosion on the morning of the
19th, this area back in here was all covered with rubble,
fragmentation, things like that; so that is why at the time I
had to go on the outside of the building and on the ledge and
climbed back through.
Q. And there was no board there for you to leave the building?
A. That's correct.
Q. And if you could have left the building that morning, would
you have done so?
A. Yes, I would have.
Q. I mean, other than going outside the ledge, I mean.
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Let me show you Defendant's Exhibit 976D, I believe. Do
you remember that picture?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Do you have a box in your hand in that picture, Agent
Franey? Do you see that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. What do you have?
A. That is a lockbox that I kept in my desk.
Q. What's in it?
A. Savings bonds that I'm saving for my daughter's college --
college time.
MS. BEHENNA: That's all I have, your Honor.
THE COURT: Anything else of this witness?
MR. JONES: Nothing further. Thank you.
THE COURT: Is he to be excused?
MS. BEHENNA: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Agreed.
You may step down. You're excused.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
*********************
Finding heroes among the wreckage:
Five are hailed for actions
in Oklahoma City bombing aftermath
Source.
Many heroes emerged from the wreckage of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building bombing on April 19, 1995, that destroyed the structure, killing 167 people and injuring 675 more. The herculean efforts of five of them to prevent further loss of life without regard for their own safety were recognized recently by Parade magazine and the International Association of Chiefs of Police, which named them Police Officers of the Year.
This year’s honorees, who were formally presented with the awards at the IACP’s annual meeting in Phoenix in October, include: Midwest City police Cpl. Regina Bonny, 36; Drug Enforcement Administration Special Agent David Schickendanz, 46, and three members of the Oklahoma City Police Department, Det. Sgt. Robert Campbell, 39; Sgt. Rod Hill, 46; and Officer Jim Ramsey, 27.
It was the first time that joint awards have been bestowed since 1981, when four Secret Service agents were honored for saving the life of former President Ronald Reagan during an assassination attempt.
Bonny, an undercover narcotics officer, was in the doomed building that day because she had been assigned to work with the DEA on a case. She was with three female DEA agents gathered around Carrie Lenz, who was five months pregnant, looking at ultrasound images of Lenz’s baby. The bomb exploded as Bonny walked down the hall to her office. Bonny was knocked unconscious by the blast, but when she came to, she took action that saved the lives of several others trapped in the rubble.
Although suffering from serious injuries that left her with irreparable nerve damage, a brain injury and hand and shoulder wounds, Bonny pulled Vernon Buster, an inspector with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, from debris and removed a piece of metal from his arm. Then she went to the aid of Jim Staggs, also an ATF inspector, who was bleeding from a head wound. She tore off Staggs’ shirt and wrapped it around his head to stop the flow of blood. As dust and smoke began to swirl around them, Bonny, who is 5 feet, 4 inches tall, guided Buster and dragged Staggs, who weighed 205 pounds, over a pile of concrete and to a staircase.
But Bonny didn’t stop once she reached the street. She went back into the crumbling structure to search for her colleagues. But all she found was a gaping chasm where nine floors of the building, including the DEA office, used to be. She continued her fruitless search, and learned a few days later that everyone with her when the blast occurred had perished.
Schickedanz was in an elevator with ATF supervisor Alex McCauley when the blast’s shock wave jolted it loose and sent it hurtling six floors down. Once the elevator came to rest a few feet above the third floor, Schickedanz and McCauley used an emergency telephone and buzzer to summon help that never came.
The DEA agent used his body to wedge the door open so he and McCauley could scramble out and make their way to a third-floor exit door.Schickendanz returned to the building to launch a futile search for his DEA colleagues. He went on to set up a command post in his car, tried to comfort shell-shocked survivors, and fielded telephone calls. Later, he went to a local hospital to have smoke from the blast pumped from his lungs. The blast left the now-retired agent with permanent partial hearing loss.
Hill was among several Oklahoma City police officers who rushed to the scene following the blast,. He was trying to rescue survivors when firefighters warned of the possibility of another explosion. Hill was about to flee with other rescuers when he saw two women on the seventh floor of the building. “Don’t leave us!” they pleaded. Hill decided to return to try to rescue the women, and was followed by Sgt. Campbell and Det. Sgt. Ramsey.
Hill reached the seventh floor, crawled through a blown-out window and came upon a 15-foot-wide pit. He could hear one of the two women, Rhonda Griffin, 44, trying to persuade her friend Glenda Riley, 50, to jump from the window. Before either could jump, Hill yelled out that he was there. “I’ll get you out!” he shouted.
Hill pulled himself up onto a window frame, then moved carefully over two blown-out windows to get closer to the women. He hoisted Griffin onto a window frame, as Campbell and Ramsey threw a piece of metal over a narrow strip of floor to give the women an extra foothold. Using the metal plate to regain his own footing, Campbell grabbed Griffin from the window frame and pulled her across as Hill and Ramsey returned to rescue Riley.
Ten other law enforcement officers earned honorable mentions from IACP and Parade. They include: Sgt. Maj. Al Campbell, 54, Anoka, Minn., Police Department; Det. Linda Erwin, 50, Dallas Police Department; Officer Edron Lonaberger Jr., University of Maryland at Baltimore Police Department; Special Agents Larry D. Salmon, 40, and Christopher W. Reilly, 49, both of the U.S. Department of State Diplomatic Security Service.
Also: Trooper Kenneth D. Mullen, 32, Illinois State Police; Officer Andrew M. Margiotta, 33, Henrico County, Va., Division of Police; Trooper Lee A. Sredniawa, 25, Ohio State Highway Patrol; Officer Mell Taylor, 32, Spokane, Wash., Police Department; and Sgt. Mark A. Wynn, 41, Metropolitan Nashville, Tenn., Police Department.
******************
Maybe someone will be good enough to pass this on to conspiracybeliever. He still hasn't apologized to me for his rudeness and immaturity on another thread, and I'm not dealing with him until he does.
(Edited for grammar)
