The Oklahoma City Bombing Coverup
- Thread starter conspiracybeliever
- Start date
I "claim" this:
1) There are media reports (including CNN) that Moussaoui used either Nick Berg's email password or his laptop computer somewhere in Oklahoma.....
2) There are media reports that Nick Berg was later beheaded in Bagdhad by terrorists associated with al-Zarqawi......
3) There are media reports that McVeigh was seen at a motel on I-40, near both Elohim City and Oklahoma City, with people of Mid-Eastern appearance.....
4) There are reports that Terry Nichols made several trips to the Phillipines, and that he was seen with Islamic terrorists who were associated with the WTC bombing.....
5) There are reports associating Moussaoui with the Oklahoma City area, where he attended some flight school training.......
6) There are reports that Carol Howe informed ATF SA Finley that people associated with Elohim City were talking of bombing federal buildings......
7) There are reports that SA Finley duly submitted a written report of Howe's reports to the regional ATF office in Dallas, and Finley's report was duly endorsed by appropriate OKC and Tulsa ATF officials...........
8) There is no record of Carol Howe in the McVeigh trial record, but there is in the Nichols trial record......
9) James Pate and Rick Sherrow reported most of the OKC events in accordance with what I have listed above in SOF magazine within two years after the bombing.............
10) The ATF and FBI at that time were heavily engaged in infiltrating right-wing, anti-government groups, and had both been heavily criticized after the Ruby Ridge and Waco events.............
11) It is my suspicion that the ATF was not aware of much information regarding FBI and CIA operations investigating Al Qaeda when the OKC attack took place, or afterwards............
What's more, I informed you that if I did indeed have proof, I wouldn't be bothered presenting it to you.
I'd be dealing directly with federal prosecutors.
Correct.
Once again, they provide evidence that Moussaoui was connected to Berg, Berg was connected to al-Zarqawi, McVeigh was linked to Straussmeir, Straussmeir fled to Germany, money to pay for the Oklahoma flying school was paid for by Moussaoui with money wired from Germany, Nichols interacted with known Islamic terrorists in the Phillipines, and Moussaoui had well documented ties to the Oklahoma City area.
So, an OKC/9-11 connection can only be established between McVeigh, and not Moussaoui connected to Berg, Berg connected to al-Zarqawi, McVeigh linked to Straussmeir, etc.........?
The white supremicists and Islamic terrorists share two major affinities:
1) They both hate Jews, and
2) They both hate the United States Government.
And McVeigh spent time in Iraq, just as Moussaoui has been spending time here.
Yes, actually I do.
Are these "burdens" published on the forum as part of the "rules"?
Do you have an authority on such things here?
I have done so repeatedly.
He should be.
That's part of the mystery.
You either have a reading problem, a comprehension problem, a problem differentiating proof from evidence, or a problem with me.
Highlights are to illustrate your difficulty differentiating evidence from proof.
It's high, and likely rising.
Funny, it happens regularly when interacting with you.
One of my physical impairments is high blood pressure. I'm medicated to regulate it.
Perhaps when I see one of your posts, I should pop a supplemental dose?
I have provided links.
You have provided nothing but the same, lame questions.
I won't "like to" much longer.
There you go again. You'll never know the difference between evidence and proof.
You know, I even think I provided you with definitions of the two words somewhere back in our short history.
Please do not proclaim my contention. See the numbered list above.
How did you miss it?:
When the day after tomorrow comes, and the informant's report had merit, it was reliable, wasn't it?
You know; hindsight?
I don't know. The reports also state email password and borrowed laptop.
The "implausible as anything other than a coincidence" concluded with the fact that this took place in the OKC area, and that Berg ended up loosing his head in Baghdad.
Now, all around you.
No proof, but plenty of evidence.
Belz...
Fiend God
A common trait of coverups is also the difficulty of verifying that there actually is one. Since there is little information supporting a conspiracy theory, how can one be convinced that there IS a conspiracy ? Or a coverup ? And if there is evidence, then verifying the truth shouldn't be that difficult.
Just my CDN0.02$
Already addressed. Below you can't verify what those reports are confirming as to whether it was Moussoui or an acquaintance. Hardly evidence or proof. More like speculation.
ok.
"appearance." Often my native american friend is asked if he is mexican. Eyewitness accounts are notoriously unreliable. Once again eyewitness accounts, and not verified with evidence. Not a whole lot here but more speculation.
Nichols reportedly had a wife there. So what? Still more speculation. Other than someone saying they saw something, do you have any evidence to cooborate this story?
So?
Again, ground covered.
Once again, no cooberating evidence.
If she had nothing the prosecution or defense could use, this isn't surprising. they were two seperate trials.
Your cites didn't show this. Provide the cite please.
Do you have a cite to back that up? While that statement is not implausible, I don't see you supporting your assertions with anything but your contention that you are correct.
Speculation. Even so, this doesn't provide evidence of anything. Does the ATF have a long history of communication with the CIA? It has been shown the FBI doesn't like to share information. So what?
That certainly says alot to the validity of your theory then. With all this underground scheming and planning and contacts and connections between OTC and 9/11 I am amazed there is no actual evidence other than some speculation and unsupported testimony.
That's a great train ride, but you have no evidence that there is any actual links there. You have two events you are connecting with a german named Strausser (the validity of that connection is still in question) and that Islamic terrorists used german banks to funnel money. That's not conclusive, and you haven't shown any evidence of correlation there. Your conclusion is inductive, and logically unsound. Of course, if you were to provide evidence...
No, but theres no evidence any way you slice your theory that there is a connection.
True, but they also hate each other just as much.
Evidence? Have you actually compared the timeline to McVeigh being in Iraq and Moussoui being here? McVeigh was in Gulf War 1 and was back in the states before 1994. When did Moussoui get to the states?
CFLarsen has certainly lectured us all on the fact that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and that it is the burden of the claimant to provide that evidence. It is a well known part of the culture of this forum.
Speculation is not evidence.
You seem to have a problem understanding that speculation is not evidence.
Loosely used interchangably as an informal statement. If you would prefer to adhere strictly to formal logic that's fine with me. I'd be happy to list how many fallacies of induction and appeal to ignorance you've used.
perhaps you should not get so worked up that you have no evidence.
And I have provided critique on why they aren't "evidence"
Maybe you should answer them then.
You can admit you have no evidence to support your theory at any time.
See above. And no, that wasn't me you provided those definitions to. It seems you've been vitriolic with so many on this forum you are confusing discussions.
Your contention is obvious. Your lack of evidence is also.
And when no supporting evidence shows itself after looking into that story, then the reliability of their statements are shown.
Already addressed.
Why not? If it happened in Michigan, I am sure you would think it was related to McVeigh's ties to the Michigan Militia. Like I said before (and a point you sorely missed) I once was in the recording studio Patti LaBelle recorded in. That doesn't mean Patti and I know each other or have anything to do with each other.
No, but plenty of speculation.
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Well, Hell, Belz; what took you so long? I knew you'd show up eventually.
Yup. That's why they call them "coverups".
There's plenty of information. It's just that only little of it has been "confirmed" by sworn statements, physical evidence, etc.
Therefore, one shouldn'tbe convinced yet.
But I'll keep my eyes and ears open for more, anyway.
I've seen a$$-covering exercises and courtroom evidence suppression before. There may be something to this.
Maybe more trials, complete with "swearing in" might shed some light.
Suggest that to Marsha Clark........
Yup. That's why they call them "coverups".
There's plenty of information. It's just that only little of it has been "confirmed" by sworn statements, physical evidence, etc.
Therefore, one shouldn'tbe convinced yet.
But I'll keep my eyes and ears open for more, anyway.
I've seen a$$-covering exercises and courtroom evidence suppression before. There may be something to this.
Maybe more trials, complete with "swearing in" might shed some light.
Suggest that to Marsha Clark........
Confirmation is proof, not evidence.
What I provided were reports.
If you don't like it, take it up with CNN and the others.
(Turnabout is fair play):
"You can't verify that those reports are confirming as to whether it was al-Zarqawi's or a rival's terror network that beheaded Berg. Hardly evidence or proof. More like speculation"
Okay. That's weak.
This:
He was there.
By me, repeatedly, yes.
You?
Here.
For the same crime, which clearly involved others.
Yes, I provided both the reference and a linK (#243):
Oh, PLEASE!
Surely you can't be that far in the dark!
Does anybody else see the unreasonableness of this man?
Did the word "suspicion" give you a clue?
Are you practicing to become Matlock or something?
No. That's the point. If there was better inter-agency communication, this $hit would be minimized.
Wasn't that the complaint of those crying about the "intelligence failures" regarding "weapons of mass destruction" in Iraq?
It leads to failure.
Failure tempts coverup.
I'm not much of an artist, but I'm getting desperate. I really, really need to draw you a picture, don't I?
Yes, it does.
It says that "if there was proof, we could even convict the ham sandwich with the Fowl in the jury".
But there's no "proof". There's evidence.
Or, there's proof that the intelligence community doesn't want to compromise.
With an attitude like yours, I'm not surprised that you're amazed.
Time for me to question YOU.
After reading the links I have provided, do you deny that Moussaoui used either Nick Berg's laptop computer or his email password? (No links, evidence, or proof requested; just your denial or fear of denial).
You know what's "conclusive"? The fact that you're not reading the links I provide.
You just criticized my links to Andreas Straussmeir as a "german named Strausser".
I call foul.
There's no evidence if you refuse to read it.
Evidence, Oh Great Skeptic?
Do you deny that McVeigh was in Iraq during the 1st Gulf War?
No.
So?
That's not relevant.
What's relevant is that Moussouai was Al Qaeda, they hate the U.S. Government, so did McVeigh, both were deeply involved in U.S. policy in Iraq, both have ties to Oklahoma, and both have ties to terrorist activities in the United States.
Who is CFLarsen, and does he/she have anything to do with the forum regulations?
As you may be able to tell, I don't have much knowledge or conformance with the "culture" of this forum.
Media reports are, even if you don't like it.
And you seem to have a problem understanding that evidence is not proof.
Further, I'm wondering if you can differentiate between evidence and speculation.
A lack of "evidence" isn't my problem. Actually, I shouldn't get worked up when interacting with you.
I guess you just bring out the high pressure in me.
And that critique sucks.
I have. Repeatedly.
I cannot.
Because I have no "theory", but there is plenty of evidence to support the possibility that McVeigh and Nichols didn't act alone in the OKC attack, and that there are links to international terrorists.
Well, then, I'm sorry I left you out:
Evidence:
Proof:
I guess my avatar, my open faith in God and Christ, and my willingness to accept and look into possibilities may have something to do with my responses to many on this forum. Vitriolic? You bet. I've returned hostility when hostility was presented.
I grant that you haven't been hostile.
But you're damned frustrating............
Who says that the Michigan Militia won't be tied into this at some time?
The FBI and ATF were infiltrating them, as well.
There's no evidence of that now that I know of, but I'm willing to see what you've got.
Huntster-Do not use creative spelling to get around the filter.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic Posted By: Lisa Simpson
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Belz...
Fiend God
Don't worry. As long as religion doesn't come up we shouldn't clash so much
Well, what I meant is that, since there's little of no evidence to support their existence (in some cases, that is), it's difficult to confidently say "there's a coverup" without resorting to gut feelings or conjecture.
Bronze Dog
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I'm reminded of an episode of Ghost in the Shell: Stand Along Complex: Second Gig. Revolved around this pilot for some public official. He kept fantasizing about killing that official and dying in the process. Apparently Section 9 was investigating him and concluded that he was too much of a coward to go through with his fantasies or something.
Bronze Dog
Copper Alloy Canid
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It's like that ninja in Huntster's house.
Don't worry. As long as religion doesn't come up we shouldn't clash so much
Oh, okay.
So, how long before you think somebody on this thread will bring up the extreme right-winger's religion thing?
Oh! I just did it!
Okay. How long before you think somebody will try to use that against me?
God does the ninja thing everywhere I go, not just in my house.
He doesn't need to do it here. I've got Mrs. Huntster here at the house.
Belz...
Fiend God
Well, _I_'m not going to. I'd rather discuss the issue for what it is. Now, whether we agree on other subjects or whether we think that the other's opinion on that other subject means anything in THIS thread, is irrelevant. Agreed ?
So many long posts, relevance gets lost quickly, but...
From Huntsman:
3) There are media reports that McVeigh was seen at a motel on I-40, near both Elohim City and Oklahoma City, with people of Mid-Eastern appearance..
The article you provided the link for:
http://www.laweekly.com/news/news/the-terrorist-motel/3728/
States very clearly that McVeigh was meeting with "a group of Iraqis who worked in Oklahoma City."
Exact quote: "According to the motel owner and other witnesses and investigators interviewed by the Weekly, McVeigh and several of these Iraqis were motel guests in the months preceding the 1995 bombing."
Is there a place to check the nationalities of the 9-11 hijackers? If I recall, (And I'd do my research if I weren't posting from work), There weren't a lot of Iraqi's as part of the plot.
_______________________________
Also, the obvious next step would be to look into Berg's background. From what I've understood, there really wasn't a reason to think that the meeting was other than cooincidence - Was there anything Special About Berg that a terrorist would seek him out specificly, or was he just the guy he was sitting next to at the time? If he was a college student, (Wich I would hazzard a guess he was, if the speculation that they were trying to use his credentials to hack U of O. ) he probably didn't have enough resources to be worth being sought out by a terrorist.
_______________________________
If you argue that Carol Howe's Information is credible, and the FBI knew about the OKC bombs, Then you can't argue that it WASN'T McVeigh and the White supremisists, since that was the group she infiltrated to get the information. As this thread is getting bigger, I can't recall if thats actually happened, but I want it in there for the record. ;-)
Okay. carry on.
Trif
From Huntsman:
3) There are media reports that McVeigh was seen at a motel on I-40, near both Elohim City and Oklahoma City, with people of Mid-Eastern appearance..
The article you provided the link for:
http://www.laweekly.com/news/news/the-terrorist-motel/3728/
States very clearly that McVeigh was meeting with "a group of Iraqis who worked in Oklahoma City."
Exact quote: "According to the motel owner and other witnesses and investigators interviewed by the Weekly, McVeigh and several of these Iraqis were motel guests in the months preceding the 1995 bombing."
Is there a place to check the nationalities of the 9-11 hijackers? If I recall, (And I'd do my research if I weren't posting from work), There weren't a lot of Iraqi's as part of the plot.
_______________________________
Also, the obvious next step would be to look into Berg's background. From what I've understood, there really wasn't a reason to think that the meeting was other than cooincidence - Was there anything Special About Berg that a terrorist would seek him out specificly, or was he just the guy he was sitting next to at the time? If he was a college student, (Wich I would hazzard a guess he was, if the speculation that they were trying to use his credentials to hack U of O. ) he probably didn't have enough resources to be worth being sought out by a terrorist.
_______________________________
If you argue that Carol Howe's Information is credible, and the FBI knew about the OKC bombs, Then you can't argue that it WASN'T McVeigh and the White supremisists, since that was the group she infiltrated to get the information. As this thread is getting bigger, I can't recall if thats actually happened, but I want it in there for the record. ;-)
Okay. carry on.
Trif
Dr Adequate
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You're blaming your behavior on Christianity?
But there are so many Christians who aren't complete jerks. How do you explain that?
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Bronze Dog
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I don't think anything Huntster says in any way involves a willingness to look into possibilities.
I also think he missed the point behind my ninja link. The analogy applies to more than just ramenic deities.
I also think he missed the point behind my ninja link. The analogy applies to more than just ramenic deities.
kookbreaker
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15 of the 19 were Saudi nationals. I'm not sure where the rest were from but I am very certain that they were not from Iraq.
Dr Adequate
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Could I just check?
When you say "Christ", you're talking about Jesus Christ, yes?
Not just someone with the same surname, but the guy who said:
Perhaps you should choose another religion more in line with your rather specialized spiritual needs.
Sounds like you should call some prosecutors if you have such proof.
Sorry, I'm not making that claim.
Eyewitness testimony is weak. Where's your evidence?
Still not evidence. More eyewitness speculation.
Still not a link to McVeigh.
Again, not evidnec of anything between OKC and 9/11.
Still waiting for the link between 9/11 and OKC. that doesn't provide it.
Then clearly you have evidence other than speculation and conspiracy theories. Provide it.
Which doesn't show a link between 9/11 and OKC. Again, you have nothing but induction to attempt to link a german that is reported to have some connection to the fact that german banks were used to funnel money. That's not a connection, that's speculation.
You seem to not be willing to back up your statements with cites. Provide one and stop complaining when asked, or admit you have no evidence.
Which isn't evidnece.
Whatever.
non-sequiter. Still not evidence 9/11 and OKC are connected.
Providing evidence would be a nice start. So far you have nothing but speculation.
I thought you said at the beginning of your post that confirmation is proof? You're waffling here. Tell you what, simply provide anything other than speculation as evidence.
Still not evidence.
Considering you admitted you don't know that happened and seeing discreprncies in the CNN report vs. the others I have no reason to think it did until I see some actual evidence. Otherwise it is nothing but conflicting speculation.
No, I criticized your inductive reasoning without evidence that there is a german connection between Al Quaeda and OKC. You have not shown evidence to back it up. Merely speculation.
Careful of your blood pressure.
I've read everything you posted. You have not provided any evidence other than unreliable eyewitness testimony and speculation. This is not conclusive evidnece of anything.
Here, I'll do your work for you, since you'd prefer to throw insults and whine that I want evidnece. If you wanted to show that White Supremacists and Muslim trerrorists could have a connection you could have posted this.
However instead of doing a simple google you resorted to more vitriol. Now, my links explaining why that is an exception and why white supremacists hate arabs just as much as jews is here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_supremacists
Evidence that fundamentalist muslims hate anyone not a muslim is here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist_Muslim
Take a read.
I didn't say that, and you're throwing up a straw man. I asked when Moussoui came to the US. You claimed they had overlapping timelines and I asked for evidence.
Then your statement of "And McVeigh spent time in Iraq, just as Moussaoui has been spending time here." is wholly unsuppoerted.
You made the statement inferring it was relevant above. Now you're just shifting your story.
He currently holds the #1 spot for number of posts. Most of which are probably only the word "Evidence?" No he does not have anything to do with forum regulations. However that humor is lost on you I can see.
You've certainly been here long enough to learn.
No, media reports are media reports.
Indeed. You've made alot of speculation. You've presented almost no evidence other than unreliable witness testimony and circumstantial speculation.
You've admitted it is, and in the same post you say that confirmation is proof.
That's your refutation of my critique? Hardly compelling discourse.
When asked for evidence you have thrown around insults and generally thrown a tantrum. Perhaps providing evidence is the answer.
You're backpedalling here. You've stated that international terrorist groups work together. You've yet to show any conclusive evidence of this.
All that trouble to find that link and you couldn't find the link I provided for your argument above?
And you've admitted to being a violent person. You're still not providing anything conclusive to support your thoery.
You're just willing to throw everyone into this conspiracy aren't you? There is no evidence of the Michigan Militia doing anything but running around feilds in Michigan pretending to be soldiers since OKC.
I didn't present a theory requiring evidence. But thanks, that admission of lack of evidence is exactly my point. You've got none. Please read Trifikas' post regarding logical inconsistencies with your theory. They bring up very good points.
Belz...
Fiend God
Could we please keep this on topic, people ?
Z
Variable Constant
hmmm...mmmph? Oh, hey, that's my cue, right?
Ah, heck with it. Too tired.
Besides... I personally don't think it's unlikely that McVeigh and Nichols had some vague connection with Islamic terrorists, nor that it's unlikely that OKC and 9/11 were related. I just think neither had jack squat to do with 'insider work' by our own evil gub'ment (I mean, aside from Bush Sr. pissing off the terrorists in both camps during his reign).
Oh, here - half-hearted try:
"See? This is the religious freakazoid nutjob who thinks that Christ's murder was an inside job, too..."
blah.
Faggedaboudit...