Science is not a religion, but some scientists ARE religous about their science

Ah yes, that thoroughly unrepresentative and debunked article that Lerner responded to here and blew all Wrights arguments from ignorance out of the water.

Ok here goes:

Big Bang Nucleosynthesis (BBN) predicts the abundance of four light isotopes(4He, 3He, D and 7Li) given only the density of baryons in the universe. These predictions are central to the theory, since they flow from the hypothesis that the universe went through a period of high temperature and density--the Big Bang. In practice, the baryon density has been treated as a free variable, adjusted to match the observed abundances. Since four abundances must be matched with only a single free variable, the light element abundances are a clear-cut test of the theory. In 1992, there was no value for the baryon density that could give an acceptable agreement with observed abundances, and this situation has only worsened in the ensuing decade.
Thanks to WMAP the photon/baryon density is no longer a free parameter. The agreement for deuterium and helium for the BBT is very good (I can give you references if you like). Lithium is still a problem.

The current observations of just three of the four predicted BBN light elements preclude BBN at a level of at least 7 s. In other words, the odds against BBN being a correct theory are about 100 billion to one.
This is a completely false statement. BBN relies on a correct input of information from astronomy and nuclear physics. For the former we have to know either for certain that we're looking at something corresponding to the primordial abundances of lithium isotope or be able to account with high precision for any subsequent production and/or destruction. From a nuclear physics point of view we need to know which reactions can take place and what the reaction rates at the appropriate temperatures and densities are. The latter is very difficult because in most cases the reactions cannot be done at the appropriate energy. For example, only one of the reactions in the pp chain has been measured at the right energy. The rest are extrapolated values. These, as I'm sure you can imagine, can be problematic.
The idea that BBN can be ruled out by 7 sigma is thus totally absurd, especially given the excellent match-up between the abundances of deuterium and helium and the measured photon-baryon ratio.
 
Thanks to WMAP the photon/baryon density is no longer a free parameter. The agreement for deuterium and helium for the BBT is very good (I can give you references if you like). Lithium is still a problem.

I'm really having a hard time reconciling your statement that you are not a "creationist" when you're using an abundance of elements argument to support your belief system. Isn't that whole abundance of elements concept *PREDICATED* on the belief that hydrogen and these other elements were "created" in the bang and previously did not exist?
 
Do you mind if we explore those statements a bit? Do you believe that all matter and energy were once condensed to a singular 'clump' (lest Sol bust my chops over the term point again)?
No.

If so, what caused this connected clump of matter and energy to "separate'?
N/A

Did time exist before this separation process occurred? How are your answers inconsistent with a "creation event'?
Sadly you assumed the wrong answer to your first question.

But Hubble only observed a pattern of redshifted photons. You're personally (and subjectively) interpreting those observations of redshift.
That's true. And if that were the only evidence for the big bang I'd be pretty skeptical of it. The trouble is it isn't. It isn't any more than the observation of the positron is the entirety of the evidence of the Standard model.

All of those assumptions about the various quantities of elements in the universe are predicated on the notion that in suns, iron stays evenly mixed with hydrogen, nickel and lead stay suspended in helium, and no appreciable mass separation of elements occurs in stars. That's a very weak argument IMO and it is entirely dependent on many other subjective 'interpretations' of data sets.
No it isn't. The interstellar medium is made largely of hydrogen and helium. This is easy to see with the appropriate telescope. We can see gas collapsing to form stars from this gas. Therefore stars are mostly made up of hydrogen and helium. No assumptions needed.

It seems to me that this is the one and only real claim to fame about Lambda-CDM theory, but since "fudge factors' (that never show up in a lab) make up most of the theory, how could it *NOT* be made to fit? From a skeptics perspective, it's a lot like attributing those same events to Zeus, Apollo and couple of their pantheon friends.
Erm, the frequency spectrum of the CMBR is an excellent to BBT regardless of whether DM/DE exist and regardless of whether there was an inflationary epoch.

Unfortunately you've never shown an empirical cause/effect relationship between radio sources and inflation/DE/DM.
I've never wanted to. I've never shown an empirical cause/effect relationship between many things.

Guth's original paper on inflation is like the genesis chapter of the mainstream bible. "In the beginning the mysterious dead inflation god created the heavens and the earth". The dark energy chapter of the Lambda-CDM bible came much later. :)
Like it in every single way except for the fact that you entirely made that up. Very convincing argument that.:rolleyes:

The dark matter god chapter is really interesting. At the beginning of the chapter the dark matter god looks pretty boring. He starts out as mostly ordinary "MACHO" matter but over time he morphs himself into something called "cold dark matter" that is entirely exotic. CDM can pass through walls and ordinary matter without working up a sweat. It can emit gamma rays for dinner. It picks up all sorts of exotic and unseen superpowers by the end of the chapter.
Snore. Have you heard of neutrinos?

Bull. You guys need to come clean and at least be honest about your beliefs. How much of the universe (percentage wise) is made of ordinary matter and energy (the kind that has shown up in the lab)?
You claimed that 96% of BBT was made up. Since BBT is made up of more than 4% general relativity, that means you must be stating that general relativity was made up on the spot. Please back this claim up or retract it.

IMO the pitiful part is that the mainstream refuses to acknowledge it even exists. They keep claiming there is no mathematical basis for PC/EU theory. That's an utterly irrational claim, but I hear it all the time.
Then I think you must not know the meaning of irrational.
 
I'm really having a hard time reconciling your statement that you are not a "creationist" when you're using an abundance of elements argument to support your belief system. Isn't that whole abundance of elements concept *PREDICATED* on the belief that hydrogen and these other elements were "created" in the bang and previously did not exist?
Every falsifiable prediction made by a theory depends on the assumption that the theory is correct. It's called logic. (To show that A is false, we find a prediction of the form "if A then B". Then we test B. If B turns out to be false, then A must also be false.)

In practice, most falsifiable predictions depend on various other assumptions and parameters as well. That's why the apparent discrepancy for lithium does not, by itself, falsify big bang nucleosynthesis; one or more of the assumptions concerning lithium synthesis may be wrong. The BBN predictions for hydrogen and helium involve fewer extraneous assumptions, which is why the excellent fit between those predictions and empirical data is regarded as strong evidence for BBN, while the misfit for lithium is regarded as only weak evidence against.
 
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I'm really having a hard time reconciling your statement that you are not a "creationist" when you're using an abundance of elements argument to support your belief system.
It's not to support a belief system. Its to support a theory of physics.

Isn't that whole abundance of elements concept *PREDICATED* on the belief that hydrogen and these other elements were "created" in the bang and previously did not exist?

So? The interactions of high-energy photons with matter can lead to the creation of electron-positron pairs that did not previously exist. Does that mean "belief" in QED makes me a creationist too?
 
FYI, *WOW* Z, thanks for taking the time to respond to GM. You taught me a lot. :) I appreciate it.

I don't really know where to begin trying to catch up, so I will just start here.

The problem is that you've created an army of metaphysical options to choose from, and not a shred of empirical cause/effect evidence of any connection between any of them and "expansion". With so many brands of inflation to choose from, how can you not pull one out the metaphysical closet and make it fit? There is now no possible way to falsify inflation theory. Guth's brand was already falsified evidently, but another has taken it's place. It's literally become "dogma" at this point, and you're tweaking the metaphysical properties of your invisible friend to suit yourself, just like any religious "believer" might do. Inflation is now a religion unto itself. There are nearly as many metaphysical "brands" to chose from as there are religions to choose from. While you might falsify one or two of them, that infinite potential of metaphysical replacements is entirely unfalsifiable. It's pure "dogma" at this point. The "properties" of the various brands of inflation are simply 'ad hoc" and "made up". Not a single one of them can demonstrated in a lab, with actual control mechanisms.

The bottom line here is that there is no empirical cause/effect relationship between inflation and expansions, or dark energy and acceleration. Those cause/effect relationships are *assumed* just like any religious person "assumes* a cause and works the problem backwards.

What W.D. Clinger said.
 
Ah yes, that thoroughly unrepresentative and debunked article that Lerner responded to here and blew all Wrights arguments from ignorance out of the water.

More nonsense from Lerner:
This "cold dark matter" or CDM, was hypothesized as essential for the Big Bang theory back in 1980--23 years ago. Since then physicists have searched diligently with dozens of experiments for any evidence of the existence of these dark matter particle here on Earth. Oddly enough every one of the experiments has had negative results. In fields of research other than cosmology this would have long ago led to the conclusion that CDM does not exist.
This last sentence is of course flat out false. It took 21 years from the prediction of the top quark to it's observation. And that's for a particle where "we" had a pretty good idea to look and which interacts through the strong weak and electromagnetic forces.

But Big Bang cosmology does not taken "NO" for an answer. So the failure to find the CDM after so many experiments does not in any way shake the faith of Big Bangers in such CDM. This is evidence that what we are dealing with here is a religious faith, not a scientific theory that can be refuted by experiment or observation.
And the particle physicists are religious too.

Its also telling that he makes no mention on the limits to MACHO objects from weak lensing experiments.
 
More nonsense from Lerner:

This last sentence is of course flat out false. It took 21 years from the prediction of the top quark to it's observation. And that's for a particle where "we" had a pretty good idea to look and which interacts through the strong weak and electromagnetic forces.


And the particle physicists are religious too.

Its also telling that he makes no mention on the limits to MACHO objects from weak lensing experiments.


He's obviously bitter. Can you blambe him? There been ZILCH funding given to other cosmologies in the scientific arena since the Big Bang became the dominant theory. If you have a monopoly on funding and resources for your theory then no rival theories stand a chance of competing, as both theories will likely be curious about completely different things. Some seeing some data and interpreting it as highly significant, and the other giving it a far more prosaic explanation. PC barely got the funding to even complete its models explaining the data that had been specifically cherry picked for the Big Bang before it could develop ideas on how to test some of its predictions and theories. Even using BB aimed data they have shown a very powerful predictive power for a theory with such lack of interest from funding organizations.
 
He's obviously bitter. Can you blambe him?There been ZILCH funding given to other cosmologies in the scientific arena since the Big Bang became the dominant theory. If you have a monopoly on funding and resources for your theory then no rival theories stand a chance of competing, as both theories will likely be curious about completely different things. Some seeing some data and interpreting it as highly significant, and the other giving it a far more prosaic explanation. PC barely got the funding to even complete its models explaining the data that had been specifically cherry picked for the Big Bang before it could develop ideas on how to test some of its predictions and theories. Even using BB aimed data they have shown a very powerful predictive power for a theory with such lack of interest from funding organizations.

Erm yes. I can blame him. If he'd produced any work of value he'd get the funding. But he hasn't he's just written some stuff on his website which is quite clearly nonsense, selected facts according to what suits his agenda and thrown in sly digs about religion which have no basis in reality and no place in scientific discourse.
Why should PC get any funding? It completely fails to describe anything.
 
Erm yes. I can blame him. If he'd produced any work of value he'd get the funding. But he hasn't he's just written some stuff on his website which is quite clearly nonsense, selected facts according to what suits his agenda and thrown in sly digs about religion which have no basis in reality and no place in scientific discourse.
Why should PC get any funding? It completely fails to describe anything.


Lerner is one of hundreds of scientists that have complained about this, most have complained due to his and Peratts work on Plasma cosmology too, as it seemed a fruitful idea at the time that deserved funding.

http://cosmologystatement.org/

An Open Letter to the Scientific Community
cosmologystatement.org

(Published in New Scientist, May 22, 2004)

The big bang today relies on a growing number of hypothetical entities, things that we have never observed-- inflation, dark matter and dark energy are the most prominent examples. Without them, there would be a fatal contradiction between the observations made by astronomers and the predictions of the big bang theory. In no other field of physics would this continual recourse to new hypothetical objects be accepted as a way of bridging the gap between theory and observation. It would, at the least, raise serious questions about the validity of the underlying theory.

But the big bang theory can't survive without these fudge factors. Without the hypothetical inflation field, the big bang does not predict the smooth, isotropic cosmic background radiation that is observed, because there would be no way for parts of the universe that are now more than a few degrees away in the sky to come to the same temperature and thus emit the same amount of microwave radiation.

Without some kind of dark matter, unlike any that we have observed on Earth despite 20 years of experiments, big-bang theory makes contradictory predictions for the density of matter in the universe. Inflation requires a density 20 times larger than that implied by big bang nucleosynthesis, the theory's explanation of the origin of the light elements. And without dark energy, the theory predicts that the universe is only about 8 billion years old, which is billions of years younger than the age of many stars in our galaxy.

What is more, the big bang theory can boast of no quantitative predictions that have subsequently been validated by observation. The successes claimed by the theory's supporters consist of its ability to retrospectively fit observations with a steadily increasing array of adjustable parameters, just as the old Earth-centered cosmology of Ptolemy needed layer upon layer of epicycles.

Yet the big bang is not the only framework available for understanding the history of the universe. Plasma cosmology and the steady-state model both hypothesize an evolving universe without beginning or end. These and other alternative approaches can also explain the basic phenomena of the cosmos, including the abundances of light elements, the generation of large-scale structure, the cosmic background radiation, and how the redshift of far-away galaxies increases with distance. They have even predicted new phenomena that were subsequently observed, something the big bang has failed to do. [........]


Read the large amount of signatories. They would not have signed that if they disagreed with all the plasma cosmology literature published in journals.

Is that an argument from authority? Yes. And a good one.
 
I get the impression that tubbythin may be finally actually reading the PC literature that hes been arguing against all these years :rolleyes: Do you want more than one paper to base your views on? The bulk of the maths where the predictions are made are in the earlier papers, which I can link to.
 
Lerner is one of hundreds of scientists that have complained about this, most have complained due to his and Peratts work on Plasma cosmology too, as it seemed a fruitful idea at the time that deserved funding.

http://cosmologystatement.org/
Ah yes. The hilarious cosmology statement.
These and other alternative approaches can also explain the basic phenomena of the cosmos, including the abundances of light elements, the generation of large-scale structure, the cosmic background radiation, and how the redshift of far-away galaxies increases with distance. They have even predicted new phenomena that were subsequently observed, something the big bang has failed to do.
I've never noticed the bit in bold before. This truly gets funnier every time I read it.

Read the large amount of signatories. They would not have signed that if they disagreed with all the plasma cosmology literature published in journals.
Really? Some people will sign almost anything. It's not exactly all about PC either is it.

Is that an argument from authority? Yes. And a good one.
Err no. I'm as qualified as most of the people on that list.
 
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I get the impression that tubbythin may be finally actually reading the PC literature that hes been arguing against all these years :rolleyes: Do you want more than one paper to base your views on? The bulk of the maths where the predictions are made are in the earlier papers, which I can link to.

I've read a large number of things you've linked to previously. By all means with the links.
 
We'll, I've done some damn research!


Reveal when complete that would be much appreciated. As I suspect you dont look at material while being wedded to other beloved theories like many others here do, so will do so with an open unbias mind.
 
Reveal when complete that would be much appreciated. As I suspect you dont look at material while being wedded to other beloved theories like many others here do, so will do so with an open unbias mind.

Is that you're way of saying "quarky be cool"?

I'm so open-minded, some of it leaks out.
 
hilarious argument from authority

http://cosmologystatement.org/

Read the large amount of signatories. They would not have signed that if they disagreed with all the plasma cosmology literature published in journals.

Is that an argument from authority? Yes. And a good one.
Hilarious, anyway.

Visiting the web sites of the "scientists and engineers" who have signed on to that document since its original publication provides copious evidence for this thread's title. In lieu of a random sample, I visited every link given by one of the first 100 66 new signees. (That's the first 100 "scientists and engineers" minus the original 34 signees.) In the order listed:

Peter J Carroll lists his affiliation as the Psychonaut Institute, UK. His web page identifies him as Chancellor of Arcanorium College, which identifies itself as the "Worlds Premier Cyberspace Facility for the Magical Arts".

Tom Van Flandern, of Meta Research, USA, died in 2009. His Meta Research page links to his "findings that provide compelling evidence for the presence of artificial structures on the planet Mars."

Eugene Sittampalam, Engineering consultant, Sri Lanka, links to a web page whose content appears to have been generated automatically by extracting substrings from his name.

Eit Gaastra, infinite universe researcher, The Netherlands, quotes himself as saying, in 2003, “Before twenty years we'll laugh at Einstein and the big bang.” He's an ex-novelist, though, so that could be fiction.

S.N. Arteha, Space Research Institute, Russia, has written an entire book attacking the theory of relativity. He appears to be upset by the idea that inertial observers A and B both use exactly the same formulas to calculate length contractions and time dilations for each other. How could that be?

John Hartnett, School of Physics, University of Western Australia, has a PhD in physics and looks like a legitimate scientist.

Robert Fritzius, Shade Tree Physics, runs a web page that identifies him as "another electrical engineer who is trying to overhaul physics." He has written a 1-page online paper that suggests a change over time in the electrical charge of the electron might explain the apparent cosmological redshift.

Two more of the first 100 66 new signees gave links, but they no longer work.
 
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Ok its a crap arguemnt from authority, they always are really, but tubbythins portrayal of Lerner which promted that kneejerk reaction from me is clearly absurd.
 
Hilarious, anyway.

Visiting the web sites of the "scientists and engineers" who have signed on to that document since its original publication provides copious evidence for this thread's title. In lieu of a random sample, I visited every link given by one of the first 100 66 new signees. (That's the first 100 "scientists and engineers" minus the original 34 signees.) In the order listed:

Peter J Carroll lists his affiliation as the Psychonaut Institute, UK. His web page identifies him as Chancellor of Arcanorium College, which identifies itself as the "Worlds Premier Cyberspace Facility for the Magical Arts".

Tom Van Flandern, of Meta Research, USA, died in 2009. His Meta Research page links to his "findings that provide compelling evidence for the presence of artificial structures on the planet Mars."

Eugene Sittampalam, Engineering consultant, Sri Lanka, links to a web page whose content appears to have been generated automatically by extracting substrings from his name.

Eit Gaastra, infinite universe researcher, The Netherlands, quotes himself as saying, in 2003, “Before twenty years we'll laugh at Einstein and the big bang.” He's an ex-novelist, though, so that could be fiction.

S.N. Arteha, Space Research Institute, Russia, has written an entire book attacking the theory of relativity. He appears to be upset by the idea that inertial observers A and B both use exactly the same formulas to calculate length contractions and time dilations for each other. How could that be?

John Hartnett, School of Physics, University of Western Australia, has a PhD in physics and looks like a legitimate scientist.

Robert Fritzius, Shade Tree Physics, runs a web page that identifies him as "another electrical engineer who is trying to overhaul physics." He has written a 1-page online paper that suggests a change over time in the electrical charge of the electron might explain the apparent cosmological redshift.

Two more of the first 100 66 new signees gave links, but they no longer work.

I noticed the esteemed professors Mike Rotch NBSA USA and Rei Gunn University of Nantucket USA made it onto the list too. University of Nantucket is a Massachussetts clothing store.
 
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Reveal when complete that would be much appreciated. As I suspect you dont look at material while being wedded to other beloved theories like many others here do, so will do so with an open unbias mind.

So is there any point in me reading it? After all you seem to have concluded already that I will give a biased interpretation when I reply.
 
Hilarious, anyway.

Visiting the web sites of the "scientists and engineers" who have signed on to that document since its original publication provides copious evidence for this thread's title. In lieu of a random sample, I visited every link given by one of the first 100 66 new signees. (That's the first 100 "scientists and engineers" minus the original 34 signees.) In the order listed:

Peter J Carroll lists his affiliation as the Psychonaut Institute, UK. His web page identifies him as Chancellor of Arcanorium College, which identifies itself as the "Worlds Premier Cyberspace Facility for the Magical Arts".

Tom Van Flandern, of Meta Research, USA, died in 2009. His Meta Research page links to his "findings that provide compelling evidence for the presence of artificial structures on the planet Mars."

Eugene Sittampalam, Engineering consultant, Sri Lanka, links to a web page whose content appears to have been generated automatically by extracting substrings from his name.

Eit Gaastra, infinite universe researcher, The Netherlands, quotes himself as saying, in 2003, “Before twenty years we'll laugh at Einstein and the big bang.” He's an ex-novelist, though, so that could be fiction.

S.N. Arteha, Space Research Institute, Russia, has written an entire book attacking the theory of relativity. He appears to be upset by the idea that inertial observers A and B both use exactly the same formulas to calculate length contractions and time dilations for each other. How could that be?

John Hartnett, School of Physics, University of Western Australia, has a PhD in physics and looks like a legitimate scientist.

Robert Fritzius, Shade Tree Physics, runs a web page that identifies him as "another electrical engineer who is trying to overhaul physics." He has written a 1-page online paper that suggests a change over time in the electrical charge of the electron might explain the apparent cosmological redshift.

Two more of the first 100 66 new signees gave links, but they no longer work.

This is so much fun. Marshall Douglas Smith links to an interesting site: someone who thinks Einstein's SR wasn't properly peer reviewed because...
They had made the editorial decision for "Annalen der Physik" that since Einstein had already just received a Nobel Prize, his prestige and popularity meant that his papers did not need to be peer reviewed.
This is surprising what with Einstein not winning the Nobel prize till 1922, some 17 years after said publication was published.

There is also Mosheh Thezion of The Empirical Church who informs us:
(Special NOTE : As you read this you will come to the section regarding atoms, and nucleons, and you will notice that I propose simply solid nucleon cores, which is fitting with this here description of a 4 circle rise patterm and 16 dimensions, however, such is not written in stone, and as an abundance of evidence suggests nucleons are piles of Nuetrons and Protons, I accept that such may very well be the case, such that, in the 11th dimension, when the nucleon core mass explodes, and forms the solar system, that explosion is likely to of been in the form of a mass nuetron emmision, and as we all know, nuetrons will decay in 12 seconds to form a proton and an electron, and as such, such a 11th dimensional expansion, or explosion, would result in a nuetron cloud, which quickly decays into protons, and in that jumble, these protons and nuetrons, would likely combine and form the various atoms which we know of today. So, while my given proposal of solid nucleons, may be completely wrong, this does not damage or infer that Theory as a whole is wrong, in fact both senarios fit quite nicely, and there is no major conflict.
:confused:

Oh, and then there is Charles Creager Jr of the Creationist Research Society. Which is highly ironic given Zeuzzz's earlier rantings about creationism. He seems to have that old problem with the theory of evolution and the second law of thermodynamics.
 
It's been a really busy day at work but I wanted to address a few quick points:

No it isn't. The interstellar medium is made largely of hydrogen and helium.T his is easy to see with the appropriate telescope.

Oh. That is also true of the solar wind. There are however many heavier elements to be found in interstellar/intergallactic space and lots of heavier elements in cosmic rays to consider.

We can see gas collapsing to form stars from this gas. Therefore stars are mostly made up of hydrogen and helium. No assumptions needed.

Huh? You just made *lots* of assumptions. You *assumed* for instance that stellar nurseries (not just interstellar space) contains mostly hydrogen. You just assumed that hydrogen formed first and/or more abundantly than any other element. A quick look at our moon that can't hang onto a lick of hydrogen after billions of years demonstrates the problem with that logic.

You assume a star is mostly hydrogen. You assumed a lot of stuff.

Erm, the frequency spectrum of the CMBR is an excellent to BBT regardless of whether DM/DE exist and regardless of whether there was an inflationary epoch.

So why not call it "Lambda-nothing else required" theory, drop the invisible "dark" stuff from publication and let Guth's mythical inflation theory die an natural empirical death?

I've never wanted to. I've never shown an empirical cause/effect relationship between many things.

I guess that's the difference between us in the final analysis. I like to know how things work, why they work, take them apart and put them back together. I've just always been like that. I don't have to "have faith" in electrical engineering. I can see the empirical fruits that have sprung from that field of science. I've never seen anything useful that works on inflation, dark energy or any sort of exotic matter. I have no need to believe they exist, therefor I lack belief they have anything to with expansion, acceleration and "missing mass". Like all impotent gods, those three metaphysical bad boys are entirely incapable of having an empirical effect on anything in any controlled experiment. To believe there is even a cause/effect link between inflation and expansion is an "act of faith" on the part of the believer because there is no empirical link between them in the lab.

Snore. Have you heard of neutrinos?

Yes. We knew where they probably came from before we went looking for them in the lab. Are you claiming all "dark matter" is found in neutrinos? If not, where does your exotic matter even come from? Where do I get some?
 
And the particle physicists are religious too.

I'm not sure which context you meant that, so I could be barking up the wrong tree, but...

In my experience, particle physicists tend to be more "open minded" to criticisms and more open minded to new ideas, but less apt to assign "properties" to hypothetical entities than say cosmologists.

Its also telling that he makes no mention on the limits to MACHO objects from weak lensing experiments.

Frankly it's hard to take those MACHO limits seriously seeing as how Pluto was recently demoted. The primary impetus of the demotion from planet status was because we found an even larger object sitting in our own solar system that was bigger than Pluto which was only recently 'discovered". We're note even sure how much stuff sits in our own solar system but you expect me to believe we already can be sure our "missing mass" isn't ordinary matter. Come on. The limits of MACHO matter are purely imagined. All you can be sure of is that we may have some "missing mass" to account for and it's not easy to explain it yet. The "leap of faith" into exotic matter is just that, a leap of faith in the unseen (in the lab).
 
Erm, the frequency spectrum of the CMBR is an excellent to BBT regardless of whether DM/DE exist and regardless of whether there was an inflationary epoch.

FYI, I don't have any problem with an expanding universe devoid of inflation and metaphysical dark stuff. What exactly do we disagree about then? Do you support Lambda-CDM theory, and if so why? If there's no need for these things (like CDM), why believe in them at all?
 
It's been a really busy day at work but I wanted to address a few quick points:

Oh. That is also true of the solar wind. There are however many heavier elements to be found in interstellar/intergallactic space and lots of heavier elements in cosmic rays to consider.
Cosmic rays are mostly protons and make up an insignificant fraction of the mass of anything.

Huh? You just made *lots* of assumptions. You *assumed* for instance that stellar nurseries (not just interstellar space) contains mostly hydrogen.
Huh indeed? What makes you assume this was an assumption rather than something that can be easily seen from the spectroscopic lines?

You just assumed that hydrogen formed first and/or more abundantly than any other element.
No I didn't. I know that from observation of the spectral lines most of the interstellar gas is hydrogen and helium. No assumption is involved.

A quick look at our moon that can't hang onto a lick of hydrogen after billions of years demonstrates the problem with that logic.
That's because the gravitational potential energy of the moon is less than the escape speed of hydrogen atoms at the the appropriate temperature. I can do the calculation for you if you like. With collapsing gas clouds that isn't the case (otherwise they wouldn't collapse).

You assume a star is mostly hydrogen. You assumed a lot of stuff.
No, I quite clearly didn't assume it. The gas we see collapsing to form stars is dominated by hydrogen and helium lines. This is not an assumption it is an experimental fact.

<Snipped rant about faith out of boredom>
This is getting very tiresome.


Yes. We knew where they probably came from before we went looking for them in the lab. Are you claiming all "dark matter" is found in neutrinos? If not, where does your exotic matter even come from? Where do I get some?
No, that is unlikely. It was just the fact that you stated "CDM can pass through walls and ordinary matter without working up a sweat" as if that was remarkable. Obviously this is not remarkable in the slightest when neutrinos can pass through light years of lead without undergoing interactions.
 
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I get the impression that tubbythin may be finally actually reading the PC literature that hes been arguing against all these years :rolleyes:

It's very interesting you should say that. I've gotten that same impressions from a lot of the most vocal PC/EU critics. The loudest critics seem to the be the ones that are least familiar with the literature on this topic.
 
Snore. Have you heard of neutrinos?

Oh no, the mainstream ruled them out too. They aren't "cold" enough. More importantly we know where *that* kind of mass comes from and how to detect it so it's definitely not the exotic super-duper invisible dark matter god we're looking for. :)
 
I'm not sure which context you meant that, so I could be barking up the wrong tree, but...

In my experience, particle physicists tend to be more "open minded" to criticisms and more open minded to new ideas, but less apt to assign "properties" to hypothetical entities than say cosmologists.

The context was the claim by Lerner that the attitudes of the cosmologists wouldn't happen anywhere else in science was trivially false as demonstrated by particle physics and one of the most important and newsworthy discoveries of the 1990's (so its not like this could possibly have slipped him by).
As for not assigning properties to hypothetical entities...
You're kidding right, all the significant properties of the top quark except its mass had been assigned to it prior to its discovery. Even it's mass had limits. The same goes for pluto.

Frankly it's hard to take those MACHO limits seriously seeing as how Pluto was recently demoted.
Frankly its hard for me to take you seriously when you come up with such a stupid argument. The mass of the extra bodies we observe pales in to insignifcance compared to our own Sun, let alone our own galaxy.

The primary impetus of the demotion from planet status was because we found an even larger object sitting in our own solar system that was bigger than Pluto which was only recently 'discovered". We're note even sure how much stuff sits in our own solar system but you expect me to believe we already can be sure our "missing mass" isn't ordinary matter. Come on.
We can set limits on it because of gravitational lensing. You believe the Sun has a solid iron surface. I don't expect you to believe anything rational.

<Yet another rant about snipped out of boredom>
Come on, you're going to have to do better than that. Otherwise I'll have to entertain myself with some more crank websites from the cosmology statement.
 
FYI, I don't have any problem with an expanding universe devoid of inflation and metaphysical dark stuff. What exactly do we disagree about then? Do you support Lambda-CDM theory, and if so why? If there's no need for these things (like CDM), why believe in them at all?

Well there's very much a need for CDM with or without the BBT. Like the rotation curves of galaxies (something I've "seen" for myself as an undergrad). What I said was that the frequency spectrum of the CMBR was independent of the existence or otherwise of DE/DM/an inflationary epoch. Other things point towards their existence like the above mentioned rotation curves (for DM).
 
Oh no, the mainstream ruled them out too. They aren't "cold" enough. More importantly we know where *that* kind of mass comes from and how to detect it so it's definitely not the exotic super-duper invisible dark matter god we're looking for. :)

Like I said, you seemed amazed that someone dare think that dark matter could go through walls. I fail to see why anyone would be amazed by such a thing.
 
Dark Matter and Science III

The dark matter god chapter is really interesting. At the beginning of the chapter the dark matter god looks pretty boring. He starts out as mostly ordinary "MACHO" matter but over time he morphs himself into something called "cold dark matter" that is entirely exotic. CDM can pass through walls and ordinary matter without working up a sweat. It can emit gamma rays for dinner. It picks up all sorts of exotic and unseen superpowers by the end of the chapter.
This is an excellent example of the heavy bias that makes the purely religious and totally unscientific nature of Mozina's rambling's painfully obvious. Clearly Mozina worships ignorance above all other things, and hopes that the reader will share his disdain for actual knowledge. Personally, I prefer to actually know real things about the real universe, and let it be what it is, rather then go Mozina's route of forcing the universe, very much against its will, to conform with my own strange prejudice. Let us consider the argument from knowledge for a moment, rather than the argument from ignorance.

Dark matter, as we now use the term, did not exist in the scientists lexicon until it was brought forth and into the light by the famous astronomer Fritz Zwicky. He was observing clusters of galaxies, back in the early days of our modern understanding of galaxies as stellar systems. By interpreting the redshift of galaxy spectra as a Doppler shift indicating relative motion, he derived the radial velocities of the individual galaxies in the cluster (that's the velocity along the line of sight to the galaxy). At the same time, he derived an estimate of the masses of the individual galaxies by virtue of their luminosity and his knowledge of the mass-luminosity relationship for stars. His conclusion was that the galaxies were moving so fast that the clusters would have flown apart already, unless there were about ten times more mass than he could see. Thus was dark matter born, although he called it by a more appropriate term for the time: "missing mass". It was Edwin Hubble who proved that galaxies are stellar systems, by using the 100-inch Hooker telescope at Mt. Wilson Observatory, which was the largest in the world at the time, and the first large enough to resolve stars that far away (Hubble, 1925, Hubble, 1926, Hubble, 1929). It was only a few years later that Zwicky published his determination of the "missing mass problem", as it came to be called (Zwicky, 1933, Zwicky, 1937).

Of course, Zwicky and his contemporaries and those who followed knew quite well that there could be any number of massive things that they would not expect to see; dim low mass stars, dark clouds of gas & dust in the interstellar medium, planets & etc., in the galaxies, or spread out in the space between them. So naturally, they did not think of looking for any exotic kind of matter. They simply made the natural assumption that there was mass floating around out there that escaped the limited vision of their technology. I fail to see anything spectacularly wrong with that line of reasoning.

In the intervening years, it became evident that a similar problem was visible in the rotation curves of spiral galaxies (e.g., Volders, 1959, Rubin & Ford, 1970; a problem actually anticipated in Oort, 1932).

Until fairly recently, astronomers had continued along the same course as set by Zwicky. They went looking for the missing mass as ordinary matter that has simply escaped their view. But there has been a huge advance in astronomical technology since Zwicky's time, and "simply" has become "not so simply". Infrared astronomers today can see the dust & gas in galaxies that was invisible to Zwicky and we now know that there is not enough to make up the missing mass. Infrared & optical astronomers today can see the low mass stars that Zwicky could not see and we now know that there is not enough to make up the missing mass. X-ray astronomers today can see the gas between galaxies that was invisible to Zwicky and we now know that there is not enough to make up the missing mass. In fact, we now know that all of the mass we can see is still about a factor of 10 too small to make up the missing mass. Our own Milky Way halo has been searched far & wide for low mass red dwarf stars with the Hubble Space Telescope, and searched far & wide for any compact objects, made of either ordinary or exotic matter, and in all cases the missing mass is simply not there (e.g., HST, 1994, Bahcall, et al., 1994, Alcock, et al., 2001, Yoo, Chanamé & Gould, 2004). After decades of exhaustive searches for ordinary matter objects as a source of the missing mass, it is time to face the possibly uncomfortable truth: The missing mass is not missing "simply" because we don't have the technology to see it, but even more "simply" because it simply is not there. What, exactly, does Mozina propose that we should look for, that we have not already looked for exhaustively, without finding?

Meanwhile, parallel to all this, we have finally built the technology required to see the small variations in temperature across the sky in the cosmic microwave background (the COBE & WMAP missions). Those small temperature differences, which we call anisotropies, when interpreted in the context of big bang cosmology, allow a determination of a difference between normal baryonic dark matter and exotic, non baryonic dark matter. The CMB interpretation agreed with the observational results from the conventional astronomers, that the bulk of dark matter must be an exotic, non baryonic form of matter (see Hu, 2001 and Wayne Hu's webpages, particularly the CMB pages).

Now, Mozina ignores all of this, and chooses instead to speak derisively of dark matter "morphing" itself from one thing to another. The attentive reader should note that this is very common; given the choice between discussion real science, and demonstrating real knowledge, Mozina commonly (and almost exclusively) chooses to appeal to derision & insult instead, belittling the long careers of others as if they never existed, and demanding that his own purely religious bias should always triumph over knowledge. So, exactly how is one excepted to argue with such a person, and remain a "gentleman"?

Oh no, the mainstream ruled them out too. They aren't "cold" enough. More importantly we know where *that* kind of mass comes from and how to detect it so it's definitely not the exotic super-duper invisible dark matter god we're looking for. :)
It is true that we have ruled out neutrinos specifically as the primary object of non--baryonic dark matter. However, look back to my comments above about Zwicky and his contemporaries: "They simply made the natural assumption that there was mass floating around out there that escaped the limited vision of their technology. I fail to see anything spectacularly wrong with that line of reasoning." That line of reasoning applies to non-baryonic dark matter with equal fidelity. While neutrinos may not be the non-baryonic dark matter, there is absolutely no doubt that they are a non-baryonic dark matter. So we find ourselves in much the same position as Zwicky, just in a different context of science & technology. We already have non-baryonic dark matter in hand: Neutrinos. So we simply assume that there is another form of non-baryonic dark matter out there that we simply have not yet detected.

The assumption that dark matter is non-baryonic is not the huge leap of faith that Mozina tries to claim it is (primarily to hide his own huge leaps of faith, which really are just that). It is in fact no more exotic than assuming there is more of the same class of matter which we already have in hand, but is known to be elusive and hard to detect. I fail to see anything spectacularly wrong with that line of reasoning.

There is the difference between the reasoned and scientific approach vs. the religious approach. My approach, and that of the mainstream is reasoned and scientific. This does not mean that it is inerrant, or even necessarily correct. It means only what it says, reasoned & scientific. The Mozina approach, on the other hand, is based on a foundation of bias that comes from the purely religious view, which values ignorance over knowledge and prejudice over reason.
 
Religious Scientists III

Actually, where relevant, they work in the lab just fine. ... And this is where you implicitly deny the validity of science, as it is practiced by scientists world wide, and substitute something else in its place.
Empirical physics never goes out of style Tim, and scientists worldwide practice it. That fact that modern cosmologist don't like it's constraints is not really my personal fault.
Once again, you ignore the relevant point.
And this is where you implicitly deny the validity of science, as it is practiced by scientists world wide, and substitute something else in its place. This is a fact recognized by the real scientists with whom you argue, whether or not you are willing to accept it as such. I have discussed this in detail elsewhere, e.g., Dark Matter and Science II (with correction Dark Matter and Science II.5), What is "Empirical Science"? V, What is "Empirical Science"? IV and the various references & links therein. Your reliance on laboratory experiments where such experiments are obviously and well known to be irrelevant is the point where real science & Mozina science part ways.
Modern cosmology is dominated by empirical physics, with the speculative aspects probably at an all time low. You are the one who personally denies the validity of empirical physics. You are the one who personally does not adhere to the principles of empirical physics. This fact is documented in the posts linked above, which you always ignore. So when you say that other people don't like the constraints of empirical physics, just look in the mirror, because you are them.

It's psychologically fascinating to me that you've created a three tier hierarchical structure, what you call "professionals", "amateurs" and "lurkers". In your way of looking at things the lurkers are evidently incapable of discerning a good scientific argument from a bad one, and must somehow rely strictly on personal credentials. The mere questioning of why someone needs to have a Phd to debate a scientific topic results in accusations of arrogance on my part.
You react by jerk of the knee, but would do better to think first and then post. Of course, I did say "Most of the people watching discussions like this (we call them lurkers) ... Most of them ... know little or nothing about science". You have already acknowledged my use of the word "most", but that really is not the point. Rather, the point is this: "Most of them ... know little or nothing about science." Indeed I claim it is true that most lurkers are probably incapable of discerning a good scientific argument from a bad one, because they lack both the knowledge and the experience one would expect to use in doing the discerning. Furthermore, I will also claim that most of those lurkers are well aware of this. Indeed, most people are aware of their own limitations, even if they are not willing to discuss them publicly. That's why they look towards credentials as an indicator, a hint, a guide as to whom they should trust.

But you are seriously mistaken about what is really going on here. You treat "Ph.D." as if they are some meaningless collection of letters ("The mere questioning of why someone needs to have a Phd to debate a scientific topic results in accusations of arrogance on my part."). The fact that you make such a statement at all is empirical evidence of the arrogance you speak of. One does not simply walk through the doors of a legitimate institution, say "gimme a Ph.D.", and walk out thus decorated. Rather, one goes into a program of study for several years (sometimes many years) in which a great deal of learning & experience are acquired. In most (but of course not all) cases, the person with the Ph.D. has a great deal more knowledge & experience than the person who does not have the Ph.D. Of course there are notable exceptions. I think it is not arrogant to say that after an M.S. degree and 28 years of experience, I know my craft better than someone with a Ph.D. awarded yesterday and no experience. But most people, like science itself, are "moving targets"; they live & learn & change & acquire experience, so what is true today maybe false tomorrow. When you disdain the degree, it is not the letters that suffer your insult, it is the acquisition of knowledge & experience that the letters symbolically represent. And that is where your arrogant dismissal of education & knowledge, as if they are impediments rather than accomplishments, shows itself most plainly & obviously.

It is not necessary for other people to accuse you of anything, your own words are the strongest accusation revealing your own state of mind.

Do you have Nobel Prize Tim? If not, what is an amateur like myself supposed to think when you still believe in something Alfven blew off as "pseudoscience'? Shall I believe the scientist with the Nobel prize or the mere "professional" with only a Phd?
Again you choose the way of religious bias over reason & knowledge. It's not a contest between Alfven and me, it's a contest between Alfven and the rest of the world. More to the point, it is a contest between Alfven as a static concept in time versus the dynamic advance of science and the unavoidable fact that learning takes place. You are frozen in the past worshipping your invented God of Alfven, immune to ever learning anything, lest it challenge your rigid doctrine of faith. The collective world of physicists and their physics has moved on from Alfven, into his future, and learned what he did not or could not learn. Empirical science has revealed that what Alfven might have called "pseudoscience" is in fact valid science. I trust not one person versus Alfven, but rather the physics of today versus the Alfven of yesterday. You choose a rigid doctrine of faith, while I choose to trust empirical science; the difference between us is stark & obvious.

Therein lies the essential difference. Real scientists are willing to change the way they think about the universe, in response to what they learn about it. As they gain knowledge they change their mind or go off in entirely new directions. For instance, astronomers did not decide on a whim that dark matter must be some exotic non-baryonic matter. Rather, they came to this conclusion only after decades of looking for, and not finding, baryonic dark matter, and knowing that they had achieved technology which would see it. Empiricism is what drove the conclusion that dark matter is non-baryonic and empiricism is what drove the rather sudden invention of dark energy as an explanation for surprising observations. On the other hand, pseudoscientists adopt a rigid doctrine of faith which cannot ever be challenged or questioned. In your case, there are several rigid doctrine's of faith upon which you base your pseudoscience. One is the rigid doctrine of a rigid iron surface of the sun. It is a doctrine known to be physically impossible, but since it cannot be challenged, you deny physics specifically, and empirical science in general, in order to defend the faith from question. On this there is no question or doubt in my mind at all, you are a pseudoscientist involved in the active defence of your own rigid doctrine of faith. Whether or not it seems equally obvious to anyone else is their own affair.
 
And this definition you give is interesting, as the sentence "the universe does not lie to us (but we may misinterpret what it says)" is the exact reason why there is no reasonable scientific argument for creation theories like the Big Bang. We look at the universe and it exists. Therefore the default truly scientific assumption should be that we have no reason to think otherwise.
No one assumes that the universe does not exist. Its existence today does not mean that it did or did not come into existence.

Zeuzzz, please learn Big Bang theory before you start to critize it. That is the truly scientific method. One more time: The Big Bang theory states nothing about the creation of the universe.

I think that this mindset of treating the universe and laws of physics like human lives that have a begging (and end) in time is an inherently wrong assumption. The idea of an infinite universe should not scare us off any more.
Scientists in general look at the evidence and hopefully ignore their personal prejudices. There are some who do not.
Scientists are not scared by an infinite universe because many think that the universe is infinite in volume.

If we find some data in space that implies that a specific spectrum shows properties of being condensed in the past, then that's what it shows. We need not assign any more of a special meaning to it than that. The microwave part of the spectrum used to be very dense.
...sniped
Now you are getting it: The CMB shows the properties of being condensed in the past. Thus the universe was once in a hot dense state. This is the Big Bang theory :jaw-dropp ! (with additional evidence from the Hubble law, etc.)

Does this mean that the entire universe was created then? No. Well, even if one band of the spectrum points to this, its going to have to take a lot more independently verifiable streams of data to back up the unscientific notions that energy can be created out of nothing and the universe is finite in time.
And then you spoil it :( .
It does not mean that the universe was "created then". Photons did not exist until 10 seconds after the Big Bang. N.B. The Big Bang was not when the universe was created.

There are "a lot more independently verifiable streams of data to back up" the scientific theory that the universe was once in a hot dense state.

There are many different versions and interpretations of PC, all of which roughly use the same different approaches than BBT. 1) plasma and EM forces can not be ignored on any scale due to plasma scalability and the fact that 99.9999% of matter is now known to be matter in the plasma state (not gas, liquid and solid, like was thought when BBT was formulated) This renders the fluid and gas dynamic models used in the creation of the Big Bang theory worthless, as plasma obeys obeys completely different laws of physics. 2) An origin in time for the universe is rejected, due to causality arguments and rejection of ex nihilo models as a stealth form of creationism. We have never in science seen energy created out of nothing, so have no reasonable scientific grounds to assume that this can ever, has ever, or will ever happen. 3) Since every part of the universe we observe is evolving, it assumes that the universe itself is evolving as well, though a scalar expansion as predicted from the FRW metric is not accepted as part of this evolution.
Then you are stating there are many different wrong versions and interpretations of PC and ignoring all of the posts in the PC thread.
But lets rehash some of the old stuff for your short memories sake:
1) Plasma is quasi-nautral. This means that its effects are limited to short ranges. Read up about the Debye length sometime and the fact that intergalactic medium has a debye length of 100,000 kilometres - not light years.
The fact is that 4% of the universe is measured to be visible matter. So there 3.9999% of matter is plasma. Not that means anything. The PC proponents are obsessed about 99.9999% meaning something. It deos not since plasma is quasi-nautral.
2) That is one of the most truly unscientific points of PC proponents. Science forms and rejects theories according to the evidence. It never rejects theories that are supported by the evidence. It does not reject theories because of any philosphical argments like your "causality arguments" and "ex nihilo".
3) The universe evolves - that is the Big Bang theory! The rest basically sounds like point 2 - PC proponents do not like it so they reject it.

Not really, its one tiny band of a huge spectrum....
See above about your ignorance of the Big Bang theory.

Unlike any we have any evidence for today. So it will take a lot more than the CMB and hubbles law, in my opinion, to go out on a limb and say that these exotic, never scientifically tested (merely inferred), states can exist when we have no idea how really, and see no such evidence of such states in the universe we live in now.
That is your opinion.
The science is that there is more evidence than CMB and Hubbles law for the Big Bang theory and this evidence has been scientifically tested. We do see such states in the universe - we create them in particle accelerators.
If you mean naturally occurring hot dense universes inside our universe then: Duh of course we don't see them.

Lets start with an easy one then, the Big Bang theory, and what it implies, violates the conservation of energy. Correct?
Wrong - try learning what the Big Bang theory actually is.
 
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The microwave part of the spectrum used to be very dense. Does this mean that the entire universe was created then? No.
Zeuzzz, do you actually know anything about the Big Bang? Because the fact that you think the CMBR originates from the time of creation of the Universe suggests you know almost nothing whatsoever.

Well, even if one band of the spectrum points to this, its going to have to take a lot more independently verifiable streams of data to back up the unscientific notions that energy can be created out of nothing and the universe is finite in time.
Energy is a property that is conserved in the Universe due to the temporal invariance of the laws of physics. Now, nobody really knows whether time began at the Big Bang. So suppose it did. Then before it there was no time. So the idea that energy conservation has been broken is nonsense. There is no sense of "before now" if "now" is the beginning of time. And if something preceeded the Big Bang? Well then there is no reason to assume energy conservation has been violated at all.

Lets start with an easy one then, the Big Bang theory, and what it implies, violates the conservation of energy. Correct?
Certainly not as you make out above. But energy conservation is pretty complex in GR in general.
 

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