Lambda-CDM theory - Woo or not?

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I "object" because we have not established that the mainstream "interpretation" of redshift is correct

Yes we have. Michael, you AGREED TO THIS STATEMENT IN PAST THREADS. You said that you agreed that the data (i.e. the redshift data) clearly showed an expanding universe, and moreover that the expansion was accelerating.

Here it is: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5494509&postcount=394

Can I take that statement to mean, "I agree that the data shows that the expansion of the universe is accelerating"? That would be a good first step.
Yes, I'd agree with that statement.

That's it, thread over. Thanks for wasting my time. I'll try not to fall for it next time.
 
On the one hand, we have Maxwell, Einstein, Lorentz, Poincare, Minkowski, Planck Hubble, Heisenberg, Schrödinger, Bohr, Gell-Mann, Guth, Hawking, etc., etc.
On the other hand, we have Birkeland and Alfven. Hmm.
 
Yes we have. Michael, you AGREED TO THIS STATEMENT IN PAST THREADS. You said that you agreed that the data (i.e. the redshift data) clearly showed an expanding universe, and moreover that the expansion was accelerating.

Here it is: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5494509&postcount=394

That's it, thread over. Thanks for wasting my time. I'll try not to fall for it next time.


Ah, the old dishonest tactic of argument by intentionally "forgetting" something learned in the past in order to recycle the taunts, insults, and lies. It seems to be a minor variation on the argument by misdirection...

That's his argument by misdirection. Here's how he typically applies it: Troll some knowledgeable people into doing a bunch of work he's clearly not qualified to do himself, only to spit on them in the end by adding a couple more impossible assumptions to the mix and expecting them to start over. I've seen him use this technique to take people on rides for pages and pages, then literally ignore all their responses and jump to another topic as if it never happened.

It's a rework of the old stand-by, argument by shifting the burden of proof, but with the addition of kicking people in the teeth after they've invested a lot of time and effort into trying to help him. Like a good con man he'll toss in an occasional insincere thank-you or coy apology, but unlike a good con man, Michael's use of this method to milk a failed argument is pretty transparent. It's a dishonest and manipulative way to work an argument, and one of his most often employed. It might be second only to his preferred method, argument by looks-like-a-bunny.
 
On the one hand, we have Maxwell, Einstein, Lorentz, Poincare, Minkowski, Planck Hubble, Heisenberg, Schrödinger, Bohr, Gell-Mann, Guth, Hawking, etc., etc.
On the other hand, we have Birkeland and Alfven. Hmm.
Actually, what MM has presented is his personal, idiosyncratic understanding of what Birkeland and Alfvén (and Einstein) wrote.

Now we know that MM has enormous difficulty with mathematics, and has shown no understanding of the math which Birkeland and Alfvén used, so I don't think it's entirely appropriate to categorise them as opposed to Maxwell etc.

Also, I think it's true that every one of the people named has had an idea that didn't pan out, scientifically speaking; those 'didn't work outs' can by no means be used to say their work was unscientific.

The contrast with MM is stark; AFAIK, he has not been able to explain any of his ideas in a way that shows clear consistency with the work of any scientist, including Birkeland and Alfvén; nor has he been able to back up his interpretations of the work of others (such as Birkeland and Alfvén) with consistent, reliable references to original sources.
 
I posted this back in the Iron Sun thread, but it seems more relevant here:

All this ranting about dark energy is hilariously ironic. Michael was quite the dark energy advocate back when he thought it could account for the measurement discrepancy between the actual density of the sun and how dense he needed it to be for it to have a solid iron surface.

I don't think you are grasping the tenuousness of the density measurements, or the lack of accounting for any of the known forces of our universe in these calculations. For instance, where is there any evidence of "dark energy" being factored into density calculations?

http://www.skepticfriends.org/forum/...chpage=2#78835

"Known forces" eh, Michael? Some interesting hypocrisy going on here.

Now we've determined that the dark energy could affect things in either direction, and we've also demonstrated that these ideas have NOT been factored into density calculations. We therefore cannot use a density calculations that is known to be missing some key components as some sort of "dispoof" of what we see in satellite images, and hear in heliosiesmology, and see in nuclear chemical data.

http://www.skepticfriends.org/forum/...chpage=3#78837

Pretty sad, IMO.
 
Dark Matter and Science II

By what date shall I expect inflation to show up in a lab experiment?
Whether or not inflation shows up in a laboratory is and always has been irrelevant.
Then Godflation did it. :)
Nice smiley, but the comment is both stupid & dishonest. The interested reader will take note of the rest of that message:
See my earlier post What is "Empirical Science"? V (and previous posts cited therein) for a detailed explanation as to why the point is irrelevant.
Follow the link and you will find this, quote from an earlier message:
Case in point
I quote from the book An Introduction to Scientific Research by E. Bright Wilson, Jr.; McGraw-Hill, 1952 (Dover reprint, 1990); page 27-28, section 3.7 "The Testing of Hypotheses"; emphasis from the original.

"In many cases hypotheses are so simple and their consequences so obvious that it becomes possible to test them directly. New observations on selected aspects of nature may be made, or more often an experiment can be performed for the test. There is no clear cut distinction between an experiment and a simple observation, but ordinarily in an experiment the observer interferes to some extent with nature and creates conditions or events favorable to his purpose."
Wilson says "There is no clear cut distinction between an experiment and a simple observation," and that is the way the entire scientific community currently operates. Are you now telling us that the entire scientific community is using a flawed concept of empiricism?
Mozina has seen this before and has consistently ignored it, as if it never existed. Part of his intellectual dishonesty is to ignore anything that might be construed as evidence against his religious pre-conceptions. Notice once again the key line from the E. Bright Wilson quote: "There is no clear cut distinction between an experiment and a simple observation, but ordinarily in an experiment the observer interferes to some extent with nature and creates conditions or events favorable to his purpose."

The attentive reader will perhaps have noticed by now that Mozina consistently demands that nothing can be considered in any scientific argument unless it has been unambiguously demonstrated in a controlled, laboratory experiment, here on Earth. Clearly Mozina has in fact redefined the entire concept of science without ever bothering to say so explicitly, and that is an intellectually dishonest thing to do. Mozina has furthermore chosen to deliberately ignore the issue raised here, and that too is an intellectually dishonest thing to do.

Real scientists understand that an intellectually honest exploration of nature is at the heart & soul of science. "Intellectually honest" means that all of the evidence is considered, not just the evidence you like; it means that the conclusion is driven by the weight of evidence and reasonable interpretation thereof. Now we recognize that "interpretation" invariably includes a subjective element, and that is what leads to legitimate disputes within the scientific community. For instance, as I have pointed out before, there is a dispute amongst scientists over the correct interpretation of the data from the XENON100 WIMP dark matter detection experiment. (e.g., ). The basic honesty of the investigation is not in dispute, only the interpretation of the data. But the very fact that the argument exists at all is a problem for Mozina, whose pre-conception requires that claims on behalf of the XENON100 experiment be definitive & unchallenged. So he chose to ignore the argument as if it did not exist, and claim that the results were in fact definitive & unchallenged, allowing him to greatly exaggerate the results of the experiment to the point of ruling out dark matter completely. The intellectual dishonesty comes in the deliberate choice to ignore the disputed nature of the experimental results. This is followed by the wholly unreasonable exaggeration of the affect of the experiment on the laboratory search for dark matter, an unreasonable exaggeration even if the results were in fact definitive & unchallenged. His reaction to the XENON100 experiment was neither intellectually honest nor intellectually intelligent, since he choses to consider only the evidence he likes, not all of the evidence and chooses to vastly exaggerate the affect of he experiment.
 
If I take some brand of inflationary math, change the term to "Godflation", is "Godflation" now "testable"?
Yes it is testable.

So is
  • "Satanflation"
  • "Carflation"
  • "Dogflation"
  • "MichaelMozinaflation"
  • "Xmanflation"
  • etc. etc. etc.
  • and of course the scientific inflationary theory ("inflation" in MM-speak) which has actually been tested and passed.
This post in another thread (Are you aware that you are displaying the symptoms of a crank? ) has a list of the evidence that you are providing us of your crack-pottery.

Now we have:
  • The delusion that changing the word that is used to describe something changes what is described.
    As Shakespeare said: A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.
    A Godrose smells as sweet as a rose.
    A Satanrose smells as sweet as a rose.
There is also the really weird use of quotation marks in your writing (and some other dubious practices such as "*THIS IS IMPORTANT*"). You have "testable" but
  1. It is not a quote.
  2. Testable has a good definition, i.e. capable of being tested. So using quotation marks to cast doubt on its definition is wrong.
But you have not yet gone as far as real cranks in these dubious practices , e.g. whole posts in upper case and without paragraphs.
 
Outstanding questions for Micheal Mozina

Any problems with this analysis of the evidence for nonbaryonic matter?
First asked 18 July 2009 and asked again 19th May 2010

This question was first stated as an example of the hypocrisy of MM's belief that only things that can be seen in a lab exist. But maybe he has an answer:
Does Michael Mozina believe that stars exist?
20th May 2010

Michael Mozina has also going mentioned his delusions about Birkland's work. But this is totally irrelevant to the Lambda-CDM model and this thread so I will just link to the Micheal Mozina's iron crust has been totally debunked! post in the Iron Sun thread which has a section on MM's lies and misinterpretations about Birkeland's book.
 
Combine ben's and D'rok's posts, and I think we have a pretty good, straight-forward case of intellectual dishonesty, MM's intellectual dishonesty.
 
Point accepted.

Actually, I am still waiting on MM's comments on my discussion of Birkeland's papers/book. Apparently, MM does not think it is very important to discuss the real science that Birkeland has done. I could have written chickenpoop, and he (MM), most likely, would not have noticed. MM does not understand how science works, and idolizes A, B and E and whatever these three have written (mind you they may even have commented on things they have written, e.g. E claiming that the cosmological constant was his greatest mistake ever, which will NOT be taken into account as that would crumble the Mount Olymp on which A, B and E are living).

Naturally, this message will get me scorn from MM, whereas when I discuss real things about B for example, I get a nice message like "thanks that you did this, I will get back to you later, when I have time." However, "when I have time" is usually NEVER!! This clearly shows the mindstate MM is in. He prefers to hackle on the side lines, throw some press releases out, which he does not understand, and that's that. And yes, he once published one paper, sure, but after that I guess it went down hill faster and faster.
 
I posted this back in the Iron Sun thread, but it seems more relevant here:

All this ranting about dark energy is hilariously ironic. Michael was quite the dark energy advocate back when he thought it could account for the measurement discrepancy between the actual density of the sun and how dense he needed it to be for it to have a solid iron surface.

A long time ago I had a conversation with Nereid/DRD about the possibility that the sun could be accelerating in the Z axis. I used Newton's original rock on a string analogy to explain an additional acceleration "force" if you will. That was the only way I have ever personally proposed that we "might" be underestimating the mass of the sun. It wouldn't necessarily change anything by a large margin, and therefore it's not that "big of a deal" and it's never been "that big of a deal". I never actually advocated "dark energy" because IMO any "acceleration" of plasma is directly related to the EM field. Any "extra energy" is certainly going to be found in that form IMO.


"Known forces" eh, Michael? Some interesting hypocrisy going on here.

IMO you missed the whole point of the post. It is a "known" process according to the mainstream, but it's never factored into anything inside the solar system. It's the ultimate woo because their brand of "acceleration" never works in the lab. I think you took a single post of context.
 
Combine ben's and D'rok's posts, and I think we have a pretty good, straight-forward case of intellectual dishonesty, MM's intellectual dishonesty.

Let's you and I talk about "intellectual honesty" for a moment. When are you going to admit to the fact that you have three serious "qualification" problems in your theory? How long will this denial process continue before you simply admit your theory is "weak" in these areas?

How long did you intend to ignore that information about the amount of "dust" in the universe in terms of your mass estimation techniques? How long did you intend to ignore that information about the gross *UNDERESTIMATION* of smaller stars in a given galaxy compared to the larger ones we can observe? How long did you simply intend to ignore that information DRD? Forever? What need do I have for "exotic matter" when I know for a fact you *GROSSLY* underestimate the normal mass of a galaxy and I know for a fact you've done nothing about it for years?

You've created a nice little "religion" where no "cause/effect" relationships have ever been established, nor could they ever formally be established in the lab, not ever.

How long did you intend to continue to "dumb down" the electromagnetic events in space to "magnetic yada yada yada"? How long did you and Tim and the other hardcore EU/PC haters intend to persecute empirical physics in cyberspace?

If you had any intellectual honesty you would simply admit your theory has weaknesses like any other scientific theory.

If you had any intellectual honesty you wouldn't attack the messenger, you'd simply "fess up" and be done with it. Instead its one personal attack after another, denial galore on your part, and not a shred of scientific integrity when it comes to revising your mass estimation techniques! Don't even *THINK* about lecturing me about "intellectual honesty" DRD. You don't personally have a leg to stand on.
 
A long time ago I had a conversation with Nereid/DRD about the possibility that the sun could be accelerating in the Z axis. I used Newton's original rock on a string analogy to explain an additional acceleration "force" if you will. That was the only way I have ever personally proposed that we "might" be underestimating the mass of the sun. It wouldn't necessarily change anything by a large margin, and therefore it's not that "big of a deal" and it's never been "that big of a deal". I never actually advocated "dark energy" because IMO any "acceleration" of plasma is directly related to the EM field. Any "extra energy" is certainly going to be found in that form IMO.




IMO you missed the whole point of the post. It is a "known" process according to the mainstream, but it's never factored into anything inside the solar system. It's the ultimate woo because their brand of "acceleration" never works in the lab. I think you took a single post of context.
More dishonesty from you, Michael. I linked to two posts, not one, and anyone can follow those links to see for themselves the pages and pages of arguments by you where you insist that dark energy and dark matter are real and need to be accounted for when calculating the density of the sun.
 
Actually, I am still waiting on MM's comments on my discussion of Birkeland's papers/book. Apparently, MM does not think it is very important to discuss the real science that Birkeland has done. I could have written chickenpoop, and he (MM), most likely, would not have noticed. MM does not understand how science works, and idolizes A, B and E and whatever these three have written (mind you they may even have commented on things they have written, e.g. E claiming that the cosmological constant was his greatest mistake ever, which will NOT be taken into account as that would crumble the Mount Olymp on which A, B and E are living).


And I'm still waiting on Michael to falsify his crackpot Sun conjecture now that there is enough SDO data available to do it just as he said he could. I've done it myself and posted about it a week ago. But incredulity and ignorance are a couple of skills Michael has developed thoroughly and applies in some fashion to every one of his ludicrous arguments.

Naturally, this message will get me scorn from MM, whereas when I discuss real things about B for example, I get a nice message like "thanks that you did this, I will get back to you later, when I have time." However, "when I have time" is usually NEVER!! This clearly shows the mindstate MM is in. He prefers to hackle on the side lines, throw some press releases out, which he does not understand, and that's that. And yes, he once published one paper, sure, but after that I guess it went down hill faster and faster.


He didn't so much publish the paper. Oliver Manuel did. Manuel was taken in by the same dumb kid's optical illusion that Michael was. He was stupid enough to bring Michael into the fold and put Michael's name on his own crank science paper. In discussions about the paper over at BAUT it was clear that Michael didn't even understand it himself. Given Manuel's unwillingness to come to Michael's side, and his outright denial of agreement with Michael's crackpot conjectures, it seems he may now regret bringing Michael into the mix.

And of course the point is, as has been discussed above, the intellectual dishonesty and lack of any scientific integrity whatsoever. It seems to be a common trait among crackpots. They lie, refuse to quantify anything, taunt and insult and jeer at legitimate scientists, and treat those scientists as well as math and the scientific process with utter disdain. They possess an irrational arrogance, believing they alone hold the truth while believing that literally tens of thousands of educated professionals are too stupid to notice some amazing little detail in some PR picture or newspaper article. And they are convinced that those scientists are living in denial of something which would, in reality, earn any of them a Nobel prize while totally overturning the entire consensus view of astronomy, cosmology, and physics.

From my observation these crackpots actually think they're pulling one over on the other people in the discussions. And while they might be fooling their friends, family, and neighbors, who might also be stupid as a bag of rocks, they are transparent to anyone with a lick of sense and even a rudimentary understanding of how science works. The worst of these crackpots are too ignorant to realize how nutty they look from the outside, often to the point of appearing mentally ill, and they're too dishonest, even with themselves, to know how badly they've failed.
 
Let's you and I talk about "intellectual honesty" for a moment. When are you going to admit to the fact that you have three serious "qualification" problems in your theory? How long will this denial process continue before you simply admit your theory is "weak" in these areas?

The post you quoted and then ignored entirely makes it clear that you're not actually discussing the alleged "problems" to begin with. No one agrees with you that there are problems. I'm not sure you agree with yourself that there are problems---things that you write about as "beliefs" appear to be lies adopted for the sake of an argument.

How long did you intend to ignore that information about the amount of "dust" in the universe in terms of your mass estimation techniques?

And here it goes again! See, Michael, you can't possibly believe that we've been ignoring dust. There have been whole threads about dust. You're apparently pretending that we've been ignoring dust, because shouting the accusation sounds like a good argument-starter. Not this time, Michael.

"Shhot the messenger"? What messenger? All I see is a guy wearing a messenger costume who gets his kicks yelling "Hear me! hear me!", but who makes up nonsense messages to get people to listen.
 
Let's you and I talk about "intellectual honesty" for a moment. When are you going to admit to the fact that you have three serious "qualification" problems in your theory? How long will this denial process continue before you simply admit your theory is "weak" in these areas?
Once again, there can only be "three serious "qualification" problems" when ""qualification" problems" are understood (by more than just you).

Why not take the time and trouble to write what you think these things are, in a way that others can understand? Until you do, all you are saying is "No one else understands what I am trying to say".

I cannot "admit" something unless I understand it.

My theory? What are you talking about?

How long did you intend to ignore that information about the amount of "dust" in the universe in terms of your mass estimation techniques?
Huh? Perhaps you could remind us all of what you are referring to?

Dust is a very minor component of the mass-energy of the universe; even if the estimates were out by a factor 10, they'd likely be no more than a small fraction of the uncertainty in the estimate of the total baryonic component.

How long did you intend to ignore that information about the gross *UNDERESTIMATION* of smaller stars in a given galaxy compared to the larger ones we can observe?
Huh? Perhaps you could remind us all of what you are referring to?

Stars - indeed whole galaxies - comprise only a modest fraction of the estimated total baryonic mass of the universe (most of it is in the WHIM, and the plasma which pervades clusters of galaxies), so even doubling their estimated total mass would barely register, in terms of the estimated uncertainty of the baryonic component.

How long did you simply intend to ignore that information DRD? Forever? What need do I have for "exotic matter" when I know for a fact you *GROSSLY* underestimate the normal mass of a galaxy and I know for a fact you've done nothing about it for years?
(bold added)

How do you "know" this, MM?

I have "underestimated the normal mass of a galaxy"? What are you talking about?

How long did you intend to continue to "dumb down" the electromagnetic events in space to "magnetic yada yada yada"?
Perhaps you didn't read this post of mine?

How do Maxwell's equations ""dumb down" the electromagnetic events in space to "magnetic yada yada yada""?

How does QED do this?

Or are you saying that astrophysicists do not build their models ultimately on Maxwell's equations? QED?

How long did you and Tim and the other hardcore EU/PC haters intend to persecute empirical physics in cyberspace?
What are you talking about?

Perhaps you could start by explaining what you mean by "empirical physics in cyberspace"? I, for one, have no idea what you intend to mean.

If you had any intellectual honesty you would simply admit your theory has weaknesses like any other scientific theory.
My theory? What are you talking about?

If you had any intellectual honesty you wouldn't attack the messenger, you'd simply "fess up" and be done with it. Instead its one personal attack after another, denial galore on your part, and not a shred of scientific integrity when it comes to revising your mass estimation techniques! Don't even *THINK* about lecturing me about "intellectual honesty" DRD. You don't personally have a leg to stand on.
MM, intellectual dishonesty can be defined in an objective fashion, and one can write criteria for establishing its existence, in an objective, independently verifiable way.

In the case of your posts, here and in other threads, I think the evidence - objective, independently verifiable, remember - is overwhelmingly in support of the hypothesis that you have been intellectually dishonest.

Would you be interested to go through some of that evidence?
 
Yes we have. Michael, you AGREED TO THIS STATEMENT IN PAST THREADS. You said that you agreed that the data (i.e. the redshift data) clearly showed an expanding universe, and moreover that the expansion was accelerating.

Here it is: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5494509&postcount=394



That's it, thread over. Thanks for wasting my time. I'll try not to fall for it next time.

I have not wasted anyone's time and I do personally favor an expanding, accelerating universe. I simply lack belief that your invisible friends have anything to do with those physical processes. I'm not personally as emotionally attached to the whole redshift phenomenon being directly related to expansion, but I do think it's the most logical explanation for most of it. I doubt it has anything at all to do with "space expansion", rather I suspect it's a phenomenon of time dilation.

http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0601171
 
I have not wasted anyone's time and I do personally favor an expanding, accelerating universe. I simply lack belief that your invisible friends [...]


Ben probably doesn't have any invisible friends. Remember where I reminded you that when you suggest that, you're lying? Michael, you are lying.
 
I have not wasted anyone's time and I do personally favor an expanding, accelerating universe. I simply lack belief that your invisible friends have anything to do with those physical processes. I'm not personally as emotionally attached to the whole redshift phenomenon being directly related to expansion, but I do think it's the most logical explanation for most of it. I doubt it has anything at all to do with "space expansion", rather I suspect it's a phenomenon of time dilation.

http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0601171
Chodorowski said:
Here, we study a particular Friedman model: empty universe
I don't think even you would claim the universe is empty, MM.
 
More dishonesty from you, Michael. I linked to two posts, not one, and anyone can follow those links to see for themselves the pages and pages of arguments by you where you insist that dark energy and dark matter are real and need to be accounted for when calculating the density of the sun.

My Dear D'rok. I think you need to do more reading, particularly my handle of ManInTheMirror over at Baut. My position on these issues has been entirely clear for many years. IMO you're taking a couple of posts related to a single conversation and trying to build a federal case over the issue. At no time have I been a fan of "dark energy", or "dark matter", or inflation. At times however I have to use terms that are consistent with the mainstream, even if I don't agree with them about the nature of these issues.

The only thing dishonest going on here is this stupid series of personal attacks, and conversations being taken out of context. IMO "dark energy" is composed of "current flow" and the effects of the EM field on plasma, nothing particularly exotic. You're more or less ignoring that issue only to misrepresent my overall position. I assure you I've consistently been the worlds biggest internet critics of mainstream theory, particularly their reliance upon make believe entities.

I really suggest you put things in context now with an "electric sun" model and recognize where *I* at least stand on the notion of acceleration of plasma. IMO that observation is specifically and directly related to the current flows between the sun and the heliosphere, and it's not "dark", it actually heats plasma to millions of degrees.
 
My Dear D'rok. I think you need to do more reading, particularly my handle of ManInTheMirror over at Baut. My position on these issues has been entirely clear for many years. IMO you're taking a couple of posts related to a single conversation and trying to build a federal case over the issue. At no time have I been a fan of "dark energy", or "dark matter", or inflation. At times however I have to use terms that are consistent with the mainstream, even if I don't agree with them about the nature of these issues.

The only thing dishonest going on here is this stupid series of personal attacks, and conversations being taken out of context. IMO "dark energy" is composed of "current flow" and the effects of the EM field on plasma, nothing particularly exotic. You're more or less ignoring that issue only to misrepresent my overall position. I assure you I've consistently been the worlds biggest internet critics of mainstream theory, particularly their reliance upon make believe entities.

I really suggest you put things in context now with an "electric sun" model and recognize where *I* at least stand on the notion of acceleration of plasma. IMO that observation is specifically and directly related to the current flows between the sun and the heliosphere, and it's not "dark", it actually heats plasma to millions of degrees.
Squirm all you like Mozina. The evidence is there, plain as day, in your own words. Not merely in the two posts I quoted, but in literally dozens of your posts on page after page of that thread.

Your behaviour is indistinguishable from that of a shameless intellectual fraud. Your sole value is to troll Tim and others into explaining complicated scientific concepts in layperson terms for those of us (not you) who care about learning.
 
Squirm all you like Mozina. The evidence is there, plain as day, in your own words. Not merely in the two posts I quoted, but in literally dozens of your posts on page after page of that thread.

So what? I also use the term "photosphere" when I have no faith at all that it's actually "opaque". At times one simply has to use terms that are consistent with the mainstream even if one doesn't believe they are accurate terms.

Your behaviour is indistinguishable from that of a shameless intellectual fraud. Your sole value is to troll Tim and others into explaining complicated scientific concepts in layperson terms for those of us (not you) who care about learning.

I'm sorry, but the pure denial on your part about the qualification problems with "dark" junk borders on intellectual fraud and you're it's biggest victim. There's nothing wrong with admitting the weaknesses of any and all theories and everything wrong with living in pure denial of those weaknesses.

Not a single one of you has even acknowledge the gross underestimation of normal baryonic matter! The whole religion is based on pure denial (of fact) and "faith" in the "unseen".
 
Ben probably doesn't have any invisible friends. Remember where I reminded you that when you suggest that, you're lying? Michael, you are lying.

You're the only one lying here and you're only lying to yourself. Your dark buddies do not exist except in your head. They have no physical effect on anything here on Earth or anywhere else. Whatever the physical "cause" of events in spacetime, it has nothing to do with "dark" stuff or your goofy inflation or negative pressure in vacuums. Your whole lambda-cdm religion is cobbled together with invisible friends, all of which fail to show up in a lab. Any claim to the contrary is a pure lie on your part.
 
You're the only one lying here and you're only lying to yourself. Your dark buddies do not exist except in your head. They have no physical effect on anything here on Earth or anywhere else. Whatever the physical "cause" of events in spacetime, it has nothing to do with "dark" stuff or your goofy inflation or negative pressure in vacuums. Your whole lambda-cdm religion is cobbled together with invisible friends, all of which fail to show up in a lab. Any claim to the contrary is a pure lie on your part.


Oh, another tantrum.

:dl:

Your qualifications to communicate in a sane, rational, honest, or intelligent manner on the subject of physics has been challenged. You've made thousands of posts and not once in all those words have you been able to demonstrate that you do indeed possess any such qualifications.
 
Not a single one of you has even acknowledge the gross underestimation of normal baryonic matter!
What are you talking about?

I asked you this earlier (more than once?), but you didn't respond.

For example:
DeiRenDopa said:
Michael Mozina said:
How long did you intend to ignore that information about the amount of "dust" in the universe in terms of your mass estimation techniques?
Huh? Perhaps you could remind us all of what you are referring to?

Dust is a very minor component of the mass-energy of the universe; even if the estimates were out by a factor 10, they'd likely be no more than a small fraction of the uncertainty in the estimate of the total baryonic component.

How long did you intend to ignore that information about the gross *UNDERESTIMATION* of smaller stars in a given galaxy compared to the larger ones we can observe?
Huh? Perhaps you could remind us all of what you are referring to?

Stars - indeed whole galaxies - comprise only a modest fraction of the estimated total baryonic mass of the universe (most of it is in the WHIM, and the plasma which pervades clusters of galaxies), so even doubling their estimated total mass would barely register, in terms of the estimated uncertainty of the baryonic component.

How long did you simply intend to ignore that information DRD? Forever? What need do I have for "exotic matter" when I know for a fact you *GROSSLY* underestimate the normal mass of a galaxy and I know for a fact you've done nothing about it for years?
(bold added)

How do you "know" this, MM?

I have "underestimated the normal mass of a galaxy"? What are you talking about?

Care to answer now?

Again, it's impossible for me (and I'm sure others who've posted here too) to "acknowledge" something which only you seem to understand (and which, despite many requests for clarification and explanation, you continue to not try to help us understand).
 
I'm sorry, but the pure denial on your part about the qualification problems with "dark" junk borders on intellectual fraud and you're it's biggest victim. There's nothing wrong with admitting the weaknesses of any and all theories and everything wrong with living in pure denial of those weaknesses.
What "qualification problems"?

If you don't explain what you mean, how do you expect anyone to have a meaningful dialogue with you?

OK, I admit that any and all theories have weaknesses; happy now? No, I didn't think so; what you're looking for is an acknowledgement that "any and all theories" have the specific "weaknesses" that you think you've identified. Trouble is, no one can understand what these are (other than you, of course). Why is that?
 
Curious.

There are days when this thread has added several pages to its considerable length.

And others where nothing is posted at all.

There seems to be just one JREF member trying to make a case that "Lambda-CDM theory" is scientific woo - that's MM - I wonder why that is? Didn't there used to be several who not only felt it was, but who were also not shy about saying so? And, IIRC, there were not all proponents of "EU/PC theory" (whatever that might be).
 
So what? I also use the term "photosphere" when I have no faith at all that it's actually "opaque".

1) It's opaque by definition. Which means that you're wrong by definition, which is as wrong as you can possibly be.
2) It's observably opaque.

At times one simply has to use terms that are consistent with the mainstream even if one doesn't believe they are accurate terms.

The problem is not that you don't believe, the problem is that you don't even understand.
 
Dark Matter and Ultra Faint Dwarf Galaxies II

Not a single one of you has even acknowledge the gross underestimation of normal baryonic matter!
Does this count as a deliberate lie? Of course it is not true. We have already seen this from DRD...

What are you talking about? I asked you this earlier (more than once?), but you didn't respond.

For example: ... Care to answer now?
Follow the link to DRD's post to see the omitted material.

But I also responded directly to Mozina on this very issue.

http://arxiv.org/abs/1002.0504

FYI, they found some more of that "missing mass" in our own galaxy, and oh ya, it's "baryonic material" we just never identified until now, not some new and exotic type of mass. Get used to that scenario. It's happens a lot and it's going to keep happening.
To which I responded ...
Your ignorance is showing again.

First, the paper in question:
Big fish, small fish: Two New Ultra-Faint Satellites of the Milky Way
Belokurov, et al., accepted for publication in Astrophysical Journal Letters
Abstract: We report the discovery of two new Milky Way satellites in the neighboring constellations of Pisces and Pegasus identified in data from the Sloan Digital Sky Survey. Pisces II, an ultra-faint dwarf galaxy lies at the distance of ~180 kpc, some 15 degrees away from the recently detected Pisces I. Segue 3, an ultra-faint star cluster lies at the distance of 16 kpc. We use deep follow-up imaging obtained with the 4-m Mayall telescope at Kitt Peak National Observatory to derive their structural parameters. Pisces II has a half-light radius of ~60 pc, while Segue 3 is twenty times smaller at only 3pc.

Now, our Milky Way has a baryonic mass no more than 1011 solar masses and a total virial mass of about 1012 solar masses, so the baryons constitute only about 10% of the total mass of the Galaxy, assuming of course that we are using the right law of gravity (Xue, et al., 2008). So if the "dark matter" is made up of all these ultra faint systems, they have to cover 90% of the mass. But of course, the reason they are ultra faint is that they are ultra small, meaning ultra low in mass. The Belokurov, et al., paper cited by Mozina compares Picsces II to other dwarf galaxies, Leo IV & Leo V. Those two show dynamical masses of 1.5x106 solar masses & 3x105 solar masses respectively (Moretti, et al., 2009, Walker, et al., 2009). But these masses could be to low because they are derived from stellar samples that may reveal only the central mass (the motions of stars can only reliably determine the dynamical mass at lesser, but not greater distance from the center of the system). It has been proposed that the combination of Leo IV + Leo V could be as high as 8x109 solar masses (de Jong, et al., 2009), but this does require an abnormally high mass to light ratio. Segue 3, on the other hand, carries only a "few tens of stars", as the Belokurov, et al., paper tells us, and so is insignificant.

It should come as no surprise to anyone that smaller, less massive systems are dimmer, and larger, more massive systems as brighter. So we face the dilemma of 10% of the stellar mass (i.e., the baryonic mass of the Galaxy) being hugely bright, while 90% of the stellar mass is in such ultra faint systems that they are barely visible at all. I take it the unbiased reader can understand that this is a hard thing to believe.

Meanwhile, I noted above that "Your ignorance is showing again". In this case, specific ignorance of the "missing satellites problem":
Where Are the Missing Galactic Satellites?
Klypin, et al., The Astrophysical Journal, Volume 522, Issue 1, pp. 82-92; September 1999
Abstract: According to the hierarchical clustering scenario, galaxies are assembled by merging and accretion of numerous satellites of different sizes and masses. This ongoing process is not 100% efficient in destroying all of the accreted satellites, as evidenced by the satellites of our Galaxy and of M31. Using published data, we have compiled the circular velocity (Vcirc) distribution function (VDF) of galaxy satellites in the Local Group. We find that within the volumes of radius of 570 kpc (400 h-1 kpc assuming the Hubble constant h=0.7) centered on the Milky Way and Andromeda, the average VDF is roughly approximated as n(>Vcirc)~55+/-11(Vcirc/10 km s-1)-1.4+/-0.4 h3 Mpc-3 for Vcirc in the range ~10-70 km s-1. The observed VDF is compared with results of high-resolution cosmological simulations. We find that the VDF in models is very different from the observed one: n(>Vcirc)~1200(Vcirc10 km s-1)-2.75 h3 Mpc-3. Cosmological models thus predict that a halo the size of our Galaxy should have about 50 dark matter satellites with circular velocity greater than 20 km s-1 and mass greater than 3x108 Msolar within a 570 kpc radius. This number is significantly higher than the approximately dozen satellites actually observed around our Galaxy. The difference is even larger if we consider the abundance of satellites in simulated galaxy groups similar to the Local Group. The models predict ~300 satellites inside a 1.5 Mpc radius, while only ~40 satellites are observed in the Local Group. The observed and predicted VDFs cross at ~50 km s-1, indicating that the predicted abundance of satellites with Vcirc~50 km s-1 is in reasonably good agreement with observations. We conclude, therefore, that unless a large fraction of the Local Group satellites has been missed in observations, there is a dramatic discrepancy between observations and hierarchical models, regardless of the model parameters. We discuss several possible explanations for this discrepancy including identification of some satellites with the high-velocity clouds observed in the Local Group and the existence of dark satellites that failed to accrete gas and form stars either because of the expulsion of gas in the supernovae-driven winds or because of gas heating by the intergalactic ionizing background.

So we see that one of the problems that has faced the Lambda-CDM concordance cosmology has long been that we see far fewer dwarf satellite galaxies than we expected to see.

Fast forward to ...
The Kinematics of the Ultra-faint Milky Way Satellites: Solving the Missing Satellite Problem
Simon & Geha, The Astrophysical Journal, Volume 670, Issue 1, pp. 313-331; November, 2007
Abstract: We present Keck DEIMOS spectroscopy of stars in eight of the newly discovered ultra-faint dwarf galaxies around the Milky Way. We measure the velocity dispersions of Canes Venatici I, Canes Venatici II, Coma Berenices, Hercules, Leo IV, Leo T, Ursa Major I, and Ursa Major II from the velocities of 18-214 stars in each galaxy and find dispersions ranging from 3.3 to 7.6 km s-1. The six galaxies with absolute magnitudes MV<-4 are highly dark matter dominated, with mass-to-light ratios approaching 1000 Msolar/Lsolar,v. For the fainter galaxies we find tentative evidence for tidal disruption. The measured velocity dispersions of the ultra-faint dwarfs are correlated with their luminosities, indicating that a minimum mass for luminous galactic systems may not yet have been reached. We also measure the metallicities of the observed stars and find that the new dwarfs have mean metallicities of [Fe/H]=-2.0 to -2.3 these galaxies represent some of the most metal-poor stellar systems known. The six brightest of the ultra-faint dwarfs extend the luminosity-metallicity relationship followed by more luminous dwarfs by a factor of ~30 in luminosity. We detect metallicity spreads of up to 0.5 dex in several objects, suggesting multiple star formation epochs. UMa II and Com, despite their exceptionally low luminosities, have higher metallicities that suggest they may once have been much more massive. Having established the masses of the ultra-faint dwarfs, we re-examine the missing satellite problem. After correcting for the sky coverage of the Sloan Digital Sky Survey, we find that the ultra-faint dwarfs substantially alleviate the discrepancy between the predicted and observed numbers of satellites around the Milky Way, but there are still a factor of ~4 too few dwarf galaxies over a significant range of masses. We show that if galaxy formation in low-mass dark matter halos is strongly suppressed after reionization, the simulated circular velocity function of CDM subhalos can be brought into approximate agreement with the observed circular velocity function of Milky Way satellite galaxies.

Note from the abstract above: Having established the masses of the ultra-faint dwarfs, we re-examine the missing satellite problem. After correcting for the sky coverage of the Sloan Digital Sky Survey, we find that the ultra-faint dwarfs substantially alleviate the discrepancy between the predicted and observed numbers of satellites around the Milky Way, but there are still a factor of ~4 too few dwarf galaxies over a significant range of masses. Far from being a problem for dark matter, as Mozina says, the discovery of ultra faint dwarf galaxies like this is in fact a big deal in confirming that dark matter cosmology is consistent with observations, by bringing the number of observed dwarf satellite galaxies up to the number expected from theory. As noted in the Simon & Geha paper, there remained a significant deficit of observed versus expected galaxies. But as we are able to see deeper & dimmer, we continue to discover more ultra faint dwarf galaxies, closing the gap between observation and theory.
Get used to that scenario. It's happens a lot and it's going to keep happening.
That's right Mozina, get used to it. The more of these ultra faint dwarf systems we find, the better dark matter cosmology looks and the worse you look.

This exchange took place early last February, on another thread: Michael Mozina's thread on Dark Matter, Inflation and Cosmology. Mozina constantly ignores other people's arguments, and then goes on to arrogantly & dishonestly claim that "not one of you has ...".

Let me make it clear for the record, if it is not already clear, that Mozina's claims about the mainstream underestimate of baryonic mass are not at all true, not even close. It's all in his dreams, but not in the truth. At most the underestimate is on the order of a few percent, and it is constantly acknowledged in the mainstream literature, where it is in fact an active topic of research (e.g., Geha, et al., 2006; Sinha & Holley-Bocklemann, 2010). But the dynamical mass estimates, the ones that include dark matter, show that the visible baryonic matter is out-massed by a factor of 10 by the dark matter. There is no way Mozina can even begin to justify any claim that the baryonic mass estimate for dwarf systems can be off by an entire order of magnitude.

It's all bluff, bluster and arrogant swaggering. It would not be quite so bad if a little basic honesty were included.
 
Dark Matter and Science II.5

For instance, as I have pointed out before, there is a dispute amongst scientists over the correct interpretation of the data from the XENON100 WIMP dark matter detection experiment. (e.g., ).
Of course, there was supposed to be something besides "(e.g., )" in the quote above. Sorry about that. See my earlier post XENON100 and Dark Matter: The Real Story for references & links to the dispute over the correct interpretation of the XENON100 experimental results.
 
Dark Matter and Science V

I am carrying the conversation from the religious scientists thread in an attempt to restore that thread to its OP and move this topic back to a relevant thread where it belongs.

Today's new and improved brand of "dark matter" is evidently based on SUSY theory (a non mainstream particle physics theory), a wing and a prayer. :)
Stupid.

To begin with, the modern idea of dark matter is not based on SUSY, it is based on the observation that normal matter is nowhere seen to be sufficient to account for the observed effect of gravity. It is the very empirical act of observation which leads to the conclusion that nothing already known can account for what is observed. It's all based on observation.

Now, once we have eliminated everything that we know about, it's time to consider the things we guess about. Here it must be pointed out that "SUSY" is an acronym for supersymmetry, which contrary to Mozina's claim, is very much a mainstream theory of particle physics (230 (as of now) papers with "SUSY" in the title 2009-2010; 1221 papers with "supersymmetry" in the title, 2009-2010; that's a lot of coverage for something that is not mainstream). Supersymmetry was introduced into particle physics in 1971 by Pierre Ramond and the team of John Schwarz & André Neveu, solving the fermion problem in string theory (see my TLA award winning post String Theory: An Historical Narrative, which qualifies me to be a "Muse"). The idea has become a force in mainstream physics, leading to several proposed modifications to the standard model of particle physics, and supergravity, which resulted from applying supersymmetry to general relativity. The attentive reader must remember that ignorance is Mozina's calling card, and this is just one more in a long list of examples of Mozina not knowing what he is talking about.

So, what does SUSY have to do with dark matter? Easy. We already know that no form of matter that we know about will solve the missing mass or dark matter problem. Therefore the obvious choice is a form of matter that we don't know about, but have reason to believe exists. What might that be? SUSY predicts that the particles we know about should have high mass counterparts called supersymmetric partners. None of these have been observed yet, but there are active research programs looking for them. Now, Mozina wants you to think that the fact they have not been observed is proof that they don't exist, can't exist, and we should not consider such things in any explanation of dark matter. I think That's a stupid idea, extremely contrary to the very basis of science, which is supposed to be directed by reason, not by prejudice. If what you know fails, why not appeal to what you don't know? How in the world is that supposed to be unscientific? Or contrary to empiricism?

I guess you guys just don't like to admit that the term "I don't know" is a valid scientific answer.
Quite the opposite. Everybody working on the dark matter & dark energy problems know very well that they don't know what it is. All anyone has to do is read a paper or two and it's right there. In fact, "we don't know" is why supersymmetric particles are the leading candidate for dark matter. We don't know what dark matter is, myself included, and that's a fact acknowledged by everyone you choose to insult by claiming they say otherwise. What you are too ignorant to realize is that while we don't know what dark matter is, we do know what it is not. It is not normal matter, a fact settled by observation, and that's why your railing against it comes across as hypocritical; you seem to think that observations are important, and yet you always reject the observations you don't like. Why is that? Is it because those observations challenge your religious doctrine of faith?

I have already addressed Mozina's multiple incompetencies in dealing with dark matter in many posts:

Dark Matter and Science IV
Dark Matter and Science III
Dark Matter and Ultra Faint Dwarf Galaxies II
Dark Matter and Science II
XENON100 and Dark Matter: The Real Story IV
XENON100 and Dark Matter: The Real Story III
XENON100 and Dark Matter: The Real Story II
XENON100 and Dark Matter: The Real Story I
Dark Matter, Dark Energy, Inflation and Real Science
Dark Matter: Direct Detection?
Dark Matter and Ultra Faint Galaxies

Mozina is completely wrong about dark matter, completely wrong about dark energy, completely wrong about magnetic reconnection, completely wrong about any iron surface on the sun, completely wrong about what constitutes empirical science, just plain completely wrong about everything. And I suspect that the vast majority of all you "lurkers" out there have figured that out for yourself. In any case, I stand by what I have posted, and I note that Mozina has never been able to muster an objective argument against any of it.
 
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Dark Energy and Empirical Science II

Dark energy is a figment of your imagination. It doesn't "cause" anything to happen, not ever. That is part of your religious dogma, it is not something that you can empirically demonstrate. Your "dark energy" deity is empirically impotent.
Mozina said that after reading this ...
Because "dark energy" is by definition the "anything" which is responsible for the accelerated expansion of the universe. If it is a problem with GR, then "dark energy" is that problem with GR. If it is electromagnetism, then "dark energy" is that electromagnetism. If it is a repulsive term in Einstein's equations, then "dark energy" is that repulsive term. How can you be so dense as to fail to understand such a simple aspect of ordinary English?
Definitions are hardly a figment of the imagination, so one can only wonder at the tortured process that passes for "thinking" in the mind of Mozina.

I have addressed Mozina's incompetencies regarding dark energy in many posts ...

Dark Energy Defined
Empirical Evidence for Dark Energy II
Empirical Evidence for Dark Energy
Accelerating Universe & Gravity
Cosmological Constant III
Dark Energy and Empirical Science
Dark Matter, Dark Energy, Inflation and Real Science
Dark Energy is not Classical Electromagnetism VI
Dark Energy is not Classical Electromagnetism V
Dark Energy is a Cosmological Constant IV
Dark Energy is a Cosmological Constant III
Dark Energy is a Cosmological Constant II
Inflationary Cosmology is Real Science
Dark Energy is a Cosmological Constant
Dark Energy is not Classical Electromagnetism III
Dark Energy is not Classical Electromagnetism II
Dark Energy is not Classical Electromagnetism
Inflationary Cosmology and Science

Dark energy, like dark matter, is an unknown in cosmology. We know it is there because we can see how it effects the universe in the form of an accelerated expansion, but we don't know what it is. However, just as is the case for dark matter, even if we don't know what it is, we know what it is not. Physics recognizes the existence of 4 and only 4 fundamental forces: gravity, electromagnetism, the weak force and the strong force (with the caveat that general relativity does not recognize gravity as a genuine force, treating it as geometry). So which of these 4 is dark energy? It can't be either the weak or strong force, they are extremely short range forces that show up only over nuclear distances, roughly 10-15 meters. It can't be gravity as we know it because gravity is attractive not repulsive. And it can't be classical electromagnetism, as illustrated in my posts above (electromagnetic fields are not at all "dark" in any sense). At once we see that all of the known forces are ruled out by observation.

Does Mozina know what causes the accelerated expansion? No, he does not. Do I know what causes the accelerated expansion? No, I do not. And I have seen no published paper or preprint, or reference to one, which provides a definitive explication of the cause of the accelerated expansion. However, I do know that the bulk of the published evidence shows that the observed accelerated expansion is consistent with a cosmological constant term in Einstein's equations (see my posts listed above). Does Mozina know what a cosmological constant really is? No, he does not. Do I know what a cosmological constant really is? No, I do not. However, I do know that the cosmological constant is, curiously, both cosmological and constant.

Mozina thinks that dark energy is a figment of the imagination, but at the same time agrees that there is an accelerated expansion, and that the accelerated expansion must have a cause. But the cause is, by definition, "dark energy", so Mozina contradicts himself, claiming that the cause which he knows to exist must be a figment of imagination.

The real truth, of course, comes in a few parts: (1) dark energy is entirely empirical in concept, (2) dark energy is most consistent with a cosmological constant, (3) dark energy is not any of the 4 known forces. If Mozina thinks that dark energy is in fact one of the 4 known forces, then let him say which one, and explain why anybody should believe him. Otherwise, it's just one more in a long line of failures for Mozina and his pseudoscience.
 
... And I suspect that the vast majority of all you "lurkers" out there have figured that out for yourself. ...


Tim, I can only speak for myself but in my case you are absolutely correct.

And I would like to add that I have greatly enjoyed your posts. Your writing skill is exceptional and you have a wonderful ability to write about extremely technical topics in language that even we "lurkers" can comprehend. (Well, I will admit that I do not understand most of the higher mathematics but I have no trouble understanding the broader points you are making).

Your posts along with those of the many other knowledgeable posters here are greatly appreciated by this lurker.
 
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