Science is not a religion, but some scientists ARE religous about their science

Until fairly recently, astronomers had continued along the same course as set by Zwicky. They went looking for the missing mass as ordinary matter that has simply escaped their view.

You're simply demonstrating my case for me Tim. As you note, it's only been recently that astronomers started making extraordinary claims about the nature of "dark matter". Of course extraordinary claims require extraordinary support and you don't have it.

But there has been a huge advance in astronomical technology since Zwicky's time, and "simply" has become "not so simply". Infrared astronomers today can see the dust & gas in galaxies that was invisible to Zwicky and we now know that there is not enough to make up the missing mass.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/17/science/space/17univ.html

Ya, and just a couple of years ago we found out we've been *GROSSLY* underestimating the brightness of galaxies. Did you factor that mass in Tim? How about this little revelation:

http://www.physorg.com/news169924281.html

How do you know all this matter has to be "exotic" when you can't even be sure how many actual stars are in a galaxy yet? It's amazing how impervious your religion is to common sense. You seem to think we've already isolated all the "normal" mass in the universe when it's very clear we've been grossly underestimating the stars in a given galaxy and how bright those distant stars are too! Even still I'm sure you're just going to utterly ignore these *FACTS*.

Infrared & optical astronomers today can see the low mass stars that Zwicky could not see

Not in distant galaxy we can't. We "estimate" them.

Your whole theology is based on invisible entities that do not and never have shown up in any sort of empirical lab experiment Tim. What you're trying to pass off as "empirical" is nothing more than absolute "religious faith in the unseen". More telling is your aversion to any and all criticisms of your beliefs. The moment I point out the limitations flaws, you get all butt hurt and nasty and accuse me of "worshiping ignorance" for not bowing to your Phd.
jaw-dropping.gif


Like I said "dark matter" started out as just a recognition of "missing mass", a realization of the limitations of our technologies. You've since turned "dark matter" into a "religion" that requires faith in the exotic unseen, and you can't even tell us it's actual energy state. Anyone that doesn't buy your faith based song and dance routine is subject to personal attacks galore. Yawn.
 
Once again, you ignore the relevant point.

Modern cosmology is dominated by empirical physics, with the speculative aspects probably at an all time low.

This statement is patently absurd. *NINETY SIX* percent of your theory is a no show in the lab Tim, NINETY SIX PERCENT! Inflation isn't "empirical", it's "make believe" and I can even tell you the individual that "made it up". Dark energy isn't "empirical physics", it's another ad hoc creation to prop up your otherwise falsified theory that "failed" to predict acceleration. Your exotic brands of "dark matter haven't been seen either. Less that five percent of modern cosmology is based on actual empirical physics Tim. Your claim to the contrary was simply absurd! Not even 1/10 of current cosmology theory is based on known forces of matter and energy.
 
But you are seriously mistaken about what is really going on here. You treat "Ph.D." as if they are some meaningless collection of letters

I could say the same thing to you and how you treat a Nobel Prize Tim. You're peddling what the Nobel Prize Ph'd Scientist called "pseudoscience" his entire working career. Worse yet you refuse to even acknowledge the error of your fallacy (appeal to authority) even when I turn it right back around on you! You're blowing off every opinion of every amateur that disagrees with you because they don't have that Phd, but if I use the exact same logic with Aflven's Nobel Prize, you ignore him. You can't have your cake and eat it too Tim. If the extra work that Alfven put into MHD theory and his Nobel Prize on MHD theory isn't worth squat to you, then why should your Phd mean anything to me? Think about it. You can't play both sides of that argument.
 
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This statement is patently absurd. *NINETY SIX* percent of your theory is a no show in the lab Tim, NINETY SIX PERCENT!

WRONG. See, I can write in capital letters too. Pointless though. But anyway... most of BBT is from GR which was tested in the lab in the 50's or 60's.
 
Michael, so how do you account for the galaxy rotation curves? We have observed gravitation, we have not observed an alternate theory that explains the rotation curves.
 
The analogy I see today is that science tends to be quazi-religious in the choice of what it is that is worthy of scientific investigation.

Ok serious now, thats a very very good point. A lot of the science of consciousness/dreaming/altereted states right now would be totally ridiculed about 30 years ago as just not a reliable subject or a pseudoscience. Now we have many respected fields like epigenetics and psychopharmacology that would (likely) have been not considered worthy of investigation 20-30 years back when the materialist blueprint view of genes was so prominent.

So you regard the fact that scientists shift the focus of their research based on new data as evidence that they are "quazi-religious" about their research choices?

Odd, since that process (sometimes know as "the scientific method") is precisely what distinguishes science from religion.
 
Not even 1/10 of current cosmology theory is based on known forces of matter and energy.

100% is based on known forces. If you want to make it 100% baryonic matter then it is unknown forces at work (or known forces working in unknown ways).

Dancing David: just to nitpick, you can't 'observe' a theory, and there are of course theories that try to explain rotation curves anyway so either way I don't think that's quite right - there's no laboratory tests of anything like that I'm aware of for them currently (although there's some interesting space-based possibilities I've heard of).
NB I don't consider MONDs or MONDalikes trouble-free, usual caveats apply as when they have come up elsewhere.
 
Tim Thompson said:
But there has been a huge advance in astronomical technology since Zwicky's time, and "simply" has become "not so simply". Infrared astronomers today can see the dust & gas in galaxies that was invisible to Zwicky and we now know that there is not enough to make up the missing mass.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/17/science/space/17univ.html
That sure is a reliable source of sound science, isn't it?

Ya, and just a couple of years ago we found out we've been *GROSSLY* underestimating the brightness of galaxies. Did you factor that mass in Tim? How about this little revelation:

http://www.physorg.com/news169924281.html

How do you know all this matter has to be "exotic" when you can't even be sure how many actual stars are in a galaxy yet? It's amazing how impervious your religion is to common sense. You seem to think we've already isolated all the "normal" mass in the universe when it's very clear we've been grossly underestimating the stars in a given galaxy and how bright those distant stars are too! Even still I'm sure you're just going to utterly ignore these *FACTS*.
Oh my goodness, are you STILL peddling this nonsense!?!? :jaw-dropp

MM, we've been over this before, more than once.

Your apparent inability to actually understand what you read has been demonstrated, repeatedly.

Worse, your apparent inability to do even some simple OOM (order of magnitude) calculations has been demonstrated, repeatedly.

Want to try again?

Based on this new material you've repeatedly cited, what is the mass of the Milky Way (a range of estimates please)? Please show your working.

Based on this new material you've repeatedly cited, what is the mass of M31 (a range of estimates please)? Please show your working.

Based on this new material you've repeatedly cited, what is the mass of M33 (a range of estimates please)? Please show your working.

Based on this new material you've repeatedly cited, what is the mass of the LMC (a range of estimates please)? Please show your working.

How do these estimates - the ones you will produce - compare with those published in contemporary papers?

Infrared & optical astronomers today can see the low mass stars that Zwicky could not see
Not in distant galaxy we can't. We "estimate" them.
Is the Milky Way a galaxy?

Can we estimate its mass? If so, how?

Can we see low mass stars, in the Milky Way, that Zwicky could not see? If so, what is their estimated total mass, within the volume that they are visible? How does that total mass compare with the estimated total mass of stars that Zwicky could see (same volume)?

MM, every time - and I mean EVERY time - anyone has asked you to back up your extraordinary claims re cosmology with some simple calculations, to produce OOM estimates, you have been strangely silent; why is that?
 
Your whole theology is based on invisible entities that do not and never have shown up in any sort of empirical lab experiment Tim. What you're trying to pass off as "empirical" is nothing more than absolute "religious faith in the unseen".
You don't understand how science works. Sometimes we run across things we haven't seen before or observations we can't explain. When that happens, we try to develop hypotheses and theories that could explain them.

Example: Observation of the orbit of Uranus led to prediction of new planets: Neptune and the dwarf planet Pluto. To this day, neither Neptune nor Pluto have shown up in any laboratory experiments on earth.

Example: When the neutronWP was first seen in a lab, its discoverers assumed it was a form of radiation already known to science, such as electromagnetic radiation. When all such explanations were found to be untenable, scientists realized they had discovered a previously unknown form of matter.

Example: Quarks were proposed as a possible explanation for the behavior of hadrons (baryons and mesons). Quarks weren't produced in laboratory experiments until several years later. Had quarks not been proposed as a theoretical model, their discovery in laboratory experiments would probably have been delayed by many years.

Moral of story: Predictions often come before experimental confirmation. Were that not so, there would be no prediction, only postdiction, and science would not be scientific.

Like I said "dark matter" started out as just a recognition of "missing mass", a realization of the limitations of our technologies. You've since turned "dark matter" into a "religion" that requires faith in the exotic unseen, and you can't even tell us it's actual energy state. Anyone that doesn't buy your faith based song and dance routine is subject to personal attacks galore. Yawn.
Neptune and Pluto started out as a recognition of "missing mass". Scientists didn't stop there, but looked for them.

Neutrons started out as observations in need of explanation. Scientists didn't stop there, but proceeded to rule out known forms of matter as an explanation.

Dark matter started out as observations in need of explanation. Known forms of matter have been ruled out pretty well, which is why dark matter is now believed to consist of as-yet-undiscovered forms of matter.

Believing that as-yet-undiscovered forms of matter may exist is less arrogant and less religious than your dogmatic belief that the known forms of matter are the only ones that exist.

More telling is your aversion to any and all criticisms of your beliefs. The moment I point out the limitations flaws, you get all butt hurt and nasty and accuse me of "worshiping ignorance" for not bowing to your Phd. [qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/images/smilies/mazeguyemotions/jaw-dropping.gif[/qimg]
You're confused. Tim Thompson has not asked you to bow to his PhD.

This statement is patently absurd. *NINETY SIX* percent of your theory is a no show in the lab Tim, NINETY SIX PERCENT! Inflation isn't "empirical", it's "make believe" and I can even tell you the individual that "made it up". Dark energy isn't "empirical physics", it's another ad hoc creation to prop up your otherwise falsified theory that "failed" to predict acceleration. Your exotic brands of "dark matter haven't been seen either. Less that five percent of modern cosmology is based on actual empirical physics Tim. Your claim to the contrary was simply absurd! Not even 1/10 of current cosmology theory is based on known forces of matter and energy.
Neptune and Pluto weren't make believe. Neutrons weren't make believe. Quarks weren't make believe.

History has demonstrated that your form of argument is unreliable.

I could say the same thing to you and how you treat a Nobel Prize Tim. You're peddling what the Nobel Prize Ph'd Scientist called "pseudoscience" his entire working career. Worse yet you refuse to even acknowledge the error of your fallacy (appeal to authority) even when I turn it right back around on you! You're blowing off every opinion of every amateur that disagrees with you because they don't have that Phd, but if I use the exact same logic with Aflven's Nobel Prize, you ignore him. You can't have your cake and eat it too Tim. If the extra work that Alfven put into MHD theory and his Nobel Prize on MHD theory isn't worth squat to you, then why should your Phd mean anything to me? Think about it. You can't play both sides of that argument.
You're confused. Tim Thompson has not asked you to bow to his PhD.

Ironically, you're upset because we aren't bowing to Alfvén's PhD or Nobel Prize. Some of the reasons we aren't bowing have been documented in a spin-off of this thread.
 
Michael, so how do you account for the galaxy rotation curves? We have observed gravitation, we have not observed an alternate theory that explains the rotation curves.

"Missing mass" works just fine for me. It worked just fine for decades by the way. I simply lack belief in exotic forms of matter and you've given me no logical reason to abandon empirical physics as we understand it simply based on a few "distant observations".
 
So you regard the fact that scientists shift the focus of their research based on new data as evidence that they are "quazi-religious" about their research choices?

Well, else can you call it when those "research choices" now seem to include three forms of metaphysics, and one form of what Alfven called "pseudoscience"? Sounds pretty damn "religious" to me. Every research choice requires faith in the unseen. The mainstream even has an evil villain in the form of "current flows" in space. It has high Phd priests who's wisdom cannot be questioned by anyone but another priest. It sure has the smell of a quazi-religion.

Odd, since that process (sometimes know as "the scientific method") is precisely what distinguishes science from religion.

Except inflation, dark energy and exotic forms of matter are as impotent in the lab as any pantheon god. The mainstream has blurred the lines between empirical science and religion. They can't even tell the difference in fact. Sad. Very very sad.
 
100% is based on known forces.

Nope. 96 percent of mainstream theory is based upon make-believe forces that are entirely unseen in a controlled experiment on Earth. Even if you got lucky and found an exotic, stable form of "cold dark matter', *most* of your theory would still be based on metaphysics and faith in the unseen.

If you want to make it 100% baryonic matter then it is unknown forces at work (or known forces working in unknown ways).

Sure sounds like "God works in mysterious ways" to me. :) Are you guys sure this isn't a religion? :)
 
You don't understand how science works. Sometimes we run across things we haven't seen before or observations we can't explain. When that happens, we try to develop hypotheses and theories that could explain them.

Example: Observation of the orbit of Uranus led to prediction of new planets: Neptune and the dwarf planet Pluto. To this day, neither Neptune nor Pluto have shown up in any laboratory experiments on earth.

But planets do show up on Earth. :) We live on a planet. It's not really an 'extraordinary" claim to suggest that there might be a new planet somewhere based on gravitational influences. Unless you're trying to claim the planet is made of "dark matter', it's not an 'extraordinary" claim. If however you claim it's made of some never been seen before, super duper kind of mass, *THAT* would be an 'extraordinary" claim that required additional (extraordinary) support in terms of the nature of the mass.

Example: When the neutronWP was first seen in a lab, its discoverers assumed it was a form of radiation already known to science, such as electromagnetic radiation. When all such explanations were found to be untenable, scientists realized they had discovered a previously unknown form of matter.

Ya, but one that has a direct physical influence in a lab, and has been empirically measured since then. When can I expect you to measure inflation or dark energy in the lab? Where does that stuff even come from?

Your analogies are entirely inappropriate because:

A) *CONTROLLED EXPERIMENTATION* suggested that new forms of mass were likely.
B) Their approximate energy states were known.
C) Since they were known, they could be "empirically tested.

No sort of controlled experiment on Earth ever required the need for any of your metaphysical invisible friends.

Your analogies are entirely inappropriate IMO. Guth simply "dreamed up" inflation in his head. Dark energy was simply a knee-jerk reaction to finding out that instead of 'slowing down' as 'predicted', the universe was actually evidently accelerating. Instead of letting their non-empirical theory die a natural death, they simply *made up* yet another invisible friend, and viola the religion lives on.
 
That sure is a reliable source of sound science, isn't it?

It sure is interesting (and telling) that you ignored the implication of that information. Like any other "creationist", when presented with evidence that undermines your faith, denial kicks in.

Oh my goodness, are you STILL peddling this nonsense!?!? :jaw-dropp

MM, we've been over this before, more than once.

Your apparent inability to actually understand what you read has been demonstrated, repeatedly.

Worse, your apparent inability to do even some simple OOM (order of magnitude) calculations has been demonstrated, repeatedly.

Want to try again?

Based on this new material you've repeatedly cited, what is the mass of the Milky Way (a range of estimates please)? Please show your working.

Notice the shift in the burden of proof going on here? Instead of noting that you *GROSSLY* underestimate the "normal" mass in distant galaxies, suddenly you shift the burden to me and try to make it my responsibility to kill off your invisible friends. Sorry DRD, you have "science" standing on its head. The burden of proof falls to you. You've dreamed up some great need for an exotic form of matter. Why? What evidence do you have in light of recent revelations that your calculations of normal matter were ever correct?
 
Nope. 96 percent of mainstream theory is based upon make-believe forces that are entirely unseen in a controlled experiment on Earth.

You're wrong. As usual, you don't understand the theory you criticize.

Sure sounds like "God works in mysterious ways" to me. :) Are you guys sure this isn't a religion? :)

You need to read edd's post again. What it said was that if you insist that the only form of matter in the universe is baryonic, then you must introduce currently unknown forces to account for the data. Both approaches (dark matter versus new forces) have been studied extensively for years. Dark matter is strongly (but not certainly) preferred for reasons I don't have the patience to attempt to explain to you.
 
WRONG. See, I can write in capital letters too. Pointless though. But anyway... most of BBT is from GR which was tested in the lab in the 50's or 60's.

This is the part that really surprises me. Why can't you guys even be bluntly honest about it, and admit the facts? I have a great deal of respect for you actually, but this sort of behavior makes me wonder what your motive is. Mainstream theory is 70+ percent dark energy. Nobody knows what "dark energy" is. It has never been seen on Earth. Stuffing it into a GR formula doesn't give it automatic credibility anymore than stuffing magic into a GR formula adds credibility to magic. The mainstream didn't even dream up dark energy until around the 90's as I recall. Inflation didn't arrive until the late 70's, early 80's. The need for exotic forms of "dark matter" is also a relatively new phenomenon. None of the trio of metaphysical bad boys that I'm railing against has anything to do with GR from 50's and 60's, or BBT's from the 50's and 60's.
 
You're wrong. As usual, you don't understand the theory you criticize.

I understand that your gods are impotent in the lab. I understand it bugs you when I point that out. What you're claiming ultimately is that I don't really understand the "nature of your gods". Since your gods don't appear on earth in the lab, and all their "properties" are based on faith, I have no faith in them. If they ever do show up, let me know.

You need to read edd's post again. What it said was that if you insist that the only form of matter in the universe is baryonic, then you must introduce currently unknown forces to account for the data.

No, I don't. The term "I don't know" is a scientifically acceptable answer.

Both approaches (dark matter versus new forces) have been studied extensively for years. Dark matter is strongly (but not certainly) preferred for reasons I don't have the patience to attempt to explain to you.

I have yet to see even a single one of you deal with those two recent revelations about the brightness issues, or about the underestimation of stars credibility problem you have. Since none of you want to touch that information with a 10 foot pole, you just claim it's a "patience" issue and run along. :) I get it.
 
I have yet to see even a single one of you deal with those two recent revelations about the brightness issues, or about the underestimation of stars credibility problem you have. Since none of you want to touch that information with a 10 foot pole, you just claim it's a "patience" issue and run along. :) I get it.

Nonsense. Those precise points have been addressed multiple times in the past in threads here. Every single time the same thing happens - you fail to learn anything from the discussion and then some months later bring up exactly the same thing all over again. You're a broken record.

That's why I don't have the patience, Michael.
 
"Missing mass" works just fine for me. It worked just fine for decades by the way. I simply lack belief in exotic forms of matter and you've given me no logical reason to abandon empirical physics as we understand it simply based on a few "distant observations".

Not a few, thousands, and right here in our own Milky Way, so what is this 'non-exotic' missing mass, it isn't showing up in the EM spectrum, there are not enough MACHOs, so what is it? Seriously, you want the ~90% missing mass to be the same stuff as the stars and molecular clouds? How is that, why doesn’t it show up in the EM spectrum, so you are saying that for every star there are like twenty to one hundred fifty brown dwarfs? They radiate EM radiation to.

I know you have a thing against neutrinos and you probably would not have liked pions in the 1930s.

MM, we have been down this path, there is not evidence for sufficient baryonic mass.
 
Nonsense. Those precise points have been addressed multiple times in the past in threads here. Every single time the same thing happens - you fail to learn anything from the discussion and then some months later bring up exactly the same thing all over again. You're a broken record.

That's why I don't have the patience, Michael.

The "broken record" is entirely of your own creation. You folks *did not* come close to adequately dealing with these revelations in the past. You tried to sweep them under the rug in fact and minimize the "damage" to your theory. Your theory is broken. It's a metaphysical Frankenstein predicated on a trio of impotent gods. When faced with any information that undermines the credibility of your religion, you go into pure denial and attack the messenger rather than deal with the data. That's a classic creationist tactic.
 
DeiRenDopa said:
That sure is a reliable source of sound science, isn't it?
It sure is interesting (and telling) that you ignored the implication of that information. Like any other "creationist", when presented with evidence that undermines your faith, denial kicks in.
Sigh.

Ya know MM, it gets really boring, after the tenth or so time, to read the same stuff you've written before ... and completely ignore all the hard work that many have done to try to get you to actually *read* the source papers, much less understand them.

The only person - that I can see - who is ignoring "he implication of that information" is you. And why is that? Because, apparently, you have not a quantitative bone in your body!

Words alone are nice, MM, but unless and until you go outside, find a horse, open its mouth and actually *count* its teeth, all the words in the world won't tell you how many teeth a horse has.

Oh my goodness, are you STILL peddling this nonsense!?!?

MM, we've been over this before, more than once.

Your apparent inability to actually understand what you read has been demonstrated, repeatedly.

Worse, your apparent inability to do even some simple OOM (order of magnitude) calculations has been demonstrated, repeatedly.

Want to try again?

Based on this new material you've repeatedly cited, what is the mass of the Milky Way (a range of estimates please)? Please show your working.
Notice the shift in the burden of proof going on here? Instead of noting that you *GROSSLY* underestimate the "normal" mass in distant galaxies, suddenly you shift the burden to me and try to make it my responsibility to kill off your invisible friends. Sorry DRD, you have "science" standing on its head. The burden of proof falls to you. You've dreamed up some great need for an exotic form of matter. Why? What evidence do you have in light of recent revelations that your calculations of normal matter were ever correct?
Not at all.

The Milky Way is a galaxy.

So is M31, and M33, and the LMC.

To explain a large number of independent observations of these objects, you need either CDM or an unknown force (or both).

You claim that unseen baryonic matter - stars, for example - can do away with the need for CDM to explain the relevant observations.

OK, go to it; show us all how unseen stars (or gas, or dust) can explain the relevant observations of our galaxy, M31, M33, and the LMC!

After all, observations pointing to underestimates of the mass of stars (or gas, or dust) in distant galaxies can be tested, empirically, right here in a local lab, the one called "the Local Group".

And aren't you big on local tests, preferring these to implications drawn from intricate mathematical models based on difficult observations of faint and distant things? Since when have you been keen on preferring the latter to the former?
 
You're simply demonstrating my case for me Tim. As you note, it's only been recently that astronomers started making extraordinary claims about the nature of "dark matter". Of course extraordinary claims require extraordinary support and you don't have it.



http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/17/science/space/17univ.html

Ya, and just a couple of years ago we found out we've been *GROSSLY* underestimating the brightness of galaxies. Did you factor that mass in Tim? How about this little revelation:

So lets see, the brightness of galaxies is double so stars have twenty percent more mass, so we have 4% matter accounted for in stars, now we add twenty percent. 4 x .2= .8, so now we can account for 4.8% of the mass that seems to effect rotation curves. So that took us from 4% accounted for to roughly 5%, gee that sure dispels any doubts I had about everything.

Gee MM, that didn't make much of a difference, now did it?
 
Not a few, thousands, and right here in our own Milky Way,

Oh come on. They keep finding whole new star clusters in our own galaxy. We don't really know if we've found all the stars in our galaxy. In fact we must estimate those as well, at least on the other side of the core. I have no idea how much normal matter is out there, and neither do you.

so what is this 'non-exotic' missing mass, it isn't showing up in the EM spectrum,

Sure it does. It seems to have a direct effect on the brightness of stars.

there are not enough MACHOs, so what is it?

"Missing mass" worked for decades. Why do I need exotic matter to explain "missing mass"?

Seriously, you want the ~90% missing mass to be the same stuff as the stars and molecular clouds? How is that, why doesn’t it show up in the EM spectrum, so you are saying that for every star there are like twenty to one hundred fifty brown dwarfs? They radiate EM radiation to.

From my perspective the mainstream is nearly clueless about the EM radiation from our own star, at least in terms of how the solar wind works, how the sun electrically interacts with the heliosphere, etc. You however expect me to believe they've counted them all as well as accounted for all of their EM influences. I see no evidence that this is true.

I know you have a thing against neutrinos and you probably would not have liked pions in the 1930s.

FYI, I didn't really have a "thing against neutrinos". At one point I questioned whether or not they actually oscillate, but only due to a lack of direct empirical support. That's actually not the case anymore IMO. I've read later papers showing oscillation patterns in empirical experiments since that time.

MM, we have been down this path, there is not evidence for sufficient baryonic mass.

How do I really know that when these recent revelations haven't really been factored into your numbers? It seems to me like you're "jumping" to that conclusions, ignoring recent data, and "having faith" in a concept that may or may not be accurate.
 
W.D. Clinger said:
You don't understand how science works. Sometimes we run across things we haven't seen before or observations we can't explain. When that happens, we try to develop hypotheses and theories that could explain them.

Example: Observation of the orbit of Uranus led to prediction of new planets: Neptune and the dwarf planet Pluto. To this day, neither Neptune nor Pluto have shown up in any laboratory experiments on earth.
But planets do show up on Earth. :) We live on a planet. It's not really an 'extraordinary" claim to suggest that there might be a new planet somewhere based on gravitational influences. Unless you're trying to claim the planet is made of "dark matter', it's not an 'extraordinary" claim.
Unless the planet is exactly like the Earth, it's no more of an extrapolation to say 'here be non-baryonic mass' than to say 'here be a super-Earth'.

Again, you seem to have a quite schizophrenic idea of controlled laboratory experiments on Earth; no earthly lab has created a planet - like Neptune say - and tested it in controlled experiments.
 
It sure is interesting (and telling) that you ignored the implication of that information. Like any other "creationist", when presented with evidence that undermines your faith, denial kicks in.
Ooooh, you accounted for another .8% of the missing mass.

That sure was amazing.
Notice the shift in the burden of proof going on here? Instead of noting that you *GROSSLY* underestimate the "normal" mass in distant galaxies,
20% is a lot but not gross, it is not even a factor of ten.

What are you ranting about, you really make your ability to be coherent much less by all this hyperbole.
suddenly you shift the burden to me and try to make it my responsibility to kill off your invisible friends. Sorry DRD, you have "science" standing on its head. The burden of proof falls to you. You've dreamed up some great need for an exotic form of matter. Why?
Oh, so twenty percent mass is stars means what MM, .8% of the missing mass or less.

Big whoops, don't give yourself a hernia with all the melodramatics.
What evidence do you have in light of recent revelations that your calculations of normal matter were ever correct?

20% is not that huge a factor to call teh whole thing into question. Lets see again shall we let us pretend that the visible mass increased by twenty percent.

Now we go from 4% to 5%, you exaggerations make you look very foolish.

So now we are missing 95%.
 
Dancing David said:
Not a few, thousands, and right here in our own Milky Way,
Oh come on. They keep finding whole new star clusters in our own galaxy. We don't really know if we've found all the stars in our galaxy. In fact we must estimate those as well, at least on the other side of the core. I have no idea how much normal matter is out there, and neither do you.
OK, so you have very little understanding of astronomy, let alone astrophysics.

Well, I guess most readers already knew that, but it's nice to see you declare your gross ignorance so openly; thanks.

I can now put you back on ignore, safe in the knowledge that your future posts on astronomy, astrophysics, and cosmology will continue to contain nothing substantive (scientifically speaking).
 
Unless the planet is exactly like the Earth, it's no more of an extrapolation to say 'here be non-baryonic mass' than to say 'here be a super-Earth'.

This is simply a bizarre statement IMO. It's an "extrapolation" of data to claim that "here is a "super-earth" sized planet. It's a pure "leap of faith" to claim that same planet is made of a non-baryonic, never been seen before, type of matter based on an uncontrolled observation. It's not an extraordinary claim to suggest other planets exist in space. It is an extraordinary claim to claim that exotic matter exists based on an uncontrolled observation.

Again, you seem to have a quite schizophrenic idea of controlled laboratory experiments on Earth; no earthly lab has created a planet - like Neptune say - and tested it in controlled experiments.

The schizophrenic behaviors come from your side of the aisle. Your gods are impotent in the lab. Rather than acknowledging this point, you dance around, point at the sky and claim your invisible friends did it and those same observations are all the proof you need to "keep the faith" in your invisible friends. It's a circular feedback loop. The whole thing reeks of creationism from start to finish.
 
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The "broken record" is entirely of your own creation. You folks *did not* come close to adequately dealing with these revelations in the past. You tried to sweep them under the rug in fact and minimize the "damage" to your theory. Your theory is broken. It's a metaphysical Frankenstein predicated on a trio of impotent gods. When faced with any information that undermines the credibility of your religion, you go into pure denial and attack the messenger rather than deal with the data. That's a classic creationist tactic.

20% is the end of the world? Well lets see if the measured ability of UV light to travel through the plasma similar to the photosphere of the sun is 3.5 meters and someone wants to have it travel a couple thousand of kilosmetrs, that is a factor of 300 (or 30000%), much more of a damaging WHOOPS than 20%.

So you might know a lot about "sweep them under the rug in fact and minimize the "damage" to your theory".
 
20% is the end of the world? Well lets see if the measured ability of UV light to travel through the plasma similar to the photosphere of the sun is 3.5 meters and someone wants to have it travel a couple thousand of kilosmetrs, that is a factor of 300 (or 30000%), much more of a damaging WHOOPS than 20%.

Considering the galaxies are twice as bright as predicted and there are four times as many small stars as large ones than we first believed, where in the world did you get that 20% figure? Was that the *MOST* you could get, or another example of "damage control" where you minimize the problem?

So you might know a lot about "sweep them under the rug in fact and minimize the "damage" to your theory".

On the contrary. I at least openly discuss and acknowledge the weaknesses in my theories which is a lot more than I can say for you guys. All theories have strengths and weaknesses. It's only the mainstream that seems to think that it's theories are beyond reproach.
 
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Oh come on.
Chill out MM, you are making yourself look very hyperbolic.
You said a 'few' observations , I pointed out they are in the thousands. So you get real and take a hold of yourself.
They keep finding whole new star clusters in our own galaxy.
And that matters because, what is teh ration of a star cluster to the number of stars in a galaxy, were these the clusters obscured by the galactic disk, what is the percentage they comprise of the mass of teh galaxy. Why does this matter?
We don't really know if we've found all the stars in our galaxy. In fact we must estimate those as well, at least on the other side of the core. I have no idea how much normal matter is out there, and neither do you.
That is just silly MM, you aren't looking at the factors, there is not data to account for there being 96% of the galactic mass being brown dwarfs. We would see a whole lot more of them in proximity to the sun. Seriously. If a brown dwarf is .015 the mass of the sun and the galaxy ahs approximately ~400,000,000,000stars and now you want 66 times that in brown dwarfs that means there should be a whole bunch of them in detection range right now.
Where are they?
Sure it does. It seems to have a direct effect on the brightness of stars.
It is dust, and it decreased the brightness, so? The estimated mass is still .8% of the missing mass, did you actually read the article you cited. they did not say 96% , now did they?
"Missing mass" worked for decades. Why do I need exotic matter to explain "missing mass"?
So again you think neutrinos are exotic and you don't believe pions exist or mesons or anything, I know. You just have it out for 'dark matter'. Not that you have ever seen an electron or a proton either, but you believe in them,
From my perspective the mainstream is nearly clueless about the EM radiation from our own star, at least in terms of how the solar wind works, how the sun electrically interacts with the heliosphere, etc.
Um that doesn't mean squat in terms of the mass issue MM, stay on focus and stop with the preaching. that is called over generalization.
You however expect me to believe they've counted them all as well as accounted for all of their EM influences. I see no evidence that this is true.
Shows how much you don't know.
FYI, I didn't really have a "thing against neutrinos".
Sure you do, they are exactly a type of 'dark matter', so you ergo do not believe in them.
At one point I questioned whether or not they actually oscillate, but only due to a lack of direct empirical support. That's actually not the case anymore IMO. I've read later papers showing oscillation patterns in empirical experiments since that time.
And they are still dark matter, they exactly meet the definition, so either you believe in them or don't.
How do I really know that when these recent revelations haven't really been factored into your numbers? It seems to me like you're "jumping" to that conclusions, ignoring recent data, and "having faith" in a concept that may or may not be accurate.

I don’t think you know what 20% of star mass means, .8% of the missing mass.

Big whoop.
 
So lets see, the brightness of galaxies is double so stars have twenty percent more mass,

Ah, here's your "assumption". Why just 20 percent? Why not double the number of stars? Why not quadruple the number of small stars?

Gee MM, that didn't make much of a difference, now did it?

It seems to me that this is a fantastic example of "damage control". Faced with new data, rather than attempting to "maximize" the use of that data in favor of "normal matter", the mainstream intentionally "assumed" a smaller number based on a completely different set of assumptions to evidently preserve the need for your dark god. That's a very telling behavior IMO.
 
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Considering the galaxies are twice as bright as predicted and there are four times as many small stars as large ones than we first believed, where in the world did you get that 20% figure? Was that the *MOST* you could get, or another example of "damage control" where you minimize the problem?
Did you read your own article MM?
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/17/science/space/17univ.html
The results also mean that there is about 20 percent more mass in stars than previously thought.
On the contrary. I at least openly discuss and acknowledge the weaknesses in my theories which is a lot more than I can say for you guys.
No you don't, you prened that UV photons can travel 350 farther than they actually can through plasma like that of the sun. You did not aknowledge it evr.
All theories have strengths and weaknesses. It's only the mainstream that seems to think that it's theories are beyond reproach.

More hyperbole make you look less coherent.
 
So, what percentage mass of the galaxy is that MM?

Seriously.

I don't know DD. If there are some star clusters that we've never seen, there could be *MANY* more, particularly in the outlying areas of the galaxy where "dark matter" seems to show up.

Your argument amounts to a "dark god of the gaps" argument. Any matter that isn't accounted for because an automatic gap where you insert your god. Like all religious gods, this one is impotent in the lab, but it magically shows up in any gap.
 
Ah, here's your "assumption". Why just 20 percent? Why not double the number of stars? Why not quadruple the number of small stars?
So you cite the NY Times article and then igore it.
It seems to me that this is a fantastic example of "damage control". Faced with new data, rather than attempting to "maximize" the use of that data in favor of "normal matter", you intentionally "assumed" a smaller number based on a completely different set of assumptions to evidently preserve the need for your dark god. That's a very telling behavior IMO.
Ask the guy you cited MM.
 
I don't know DD. If there are some star clusters that we've never seen, there could be *MANY* more, particularly in the outlying areas of the galaxy where "dark matter" seems to show up.

Your argument amounts to a "dark god of the gaps" argument. Any matter that isn't accounted for because an automatic gap where you insert your god. Like all religious gods, this one is impotent in the lab, but it magically shows up in any gap.

I'm done with you for today MM, the irony of your statement is offensive.

You argue for a bunch of unobserved star clusters, you have no idea of how much mass was found. That is exaclt you using a gap argument.

Very rude of you.
Later.
 

I read the article, but that 20 percent figure is purely "contrived". If there is double the light, we can easily double the stars too.

No you don't, you prened that UV photons can travel 350 farther than they actually can through plasma like that of the sun. You did not aknowledge it evr.

That isn't the case DD. I acknowledged that for the photons in question to travel through the plasma, the atmosphere must be *highly* ionized (+4 or better). I did acknowledge that issue. I also pointed out that Birkeland's cathode sun theory doesn't depend on a "solid surface". Those really are the two "weakest" areas of the solar theory I have presented, and neither one of them is actually "critical" as it relates to cathode solar theory. Even if I'm wrong, Birkeland could still be correct.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9A00E0DA133BE633A25750C2A9649C946296D6CF
 

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