Merged flight attendant forces dog into overhead bin resulting in death

ddt said:
OTOH, there's the curious case that JoeMorgue makes, viz., that the actually available size under the seats is smaller than the size limits that United posts on their website. So, it could be that the kennel the owner brought adhered to the requirements, but still stuck out into the aisle.
Click to expand...

No, to be clear I'm not saying that the size limits United has on their website are wrong. I'm saying the size limits as posted on their website even if accurate are far to small to fit even a toy dog in a soft sided carrier under.

Which is why I found the whole "Oh have you ever flown?" snark I got so unnecessary. I've flown dozens of times and never once encountered a seat far enough off the floor of the plane to have enough space for pet storage.

The Don said:
In which case, they should have been allowed boarding and different arrangements made for the pet carrier.
Click to expand...

What "different arrangement?" Can't go under the seat, can't go in the aisle, can't go in a seat, can't go in the overhead.

As long as the airlines pretend that "under seat storage" is a viable option for anything larger than a sheet of graphene the ground level (no pun) flight crews are going to be forced into no-win situations.
 
RecoveringYuppy said:
Pretty sure that every area within the fuselage is pressurized. It would compromise the design of the fuselage if it weren't so. It's simply easier to pressurize the round shape of the fuselage rather than design the flat floors of the passenger area to be pressure barriers.

Heating and ventilation are different matters of course.
Click to expand...

That's correct. All pressurized, but not necessarily heated.

It appears there was a language problem and the flight attendant didn't understand there was a dog in the carrier.

In this morning's news, United has now shipped a German Shepherd to Japan instead of Kansas. And a Great Dane to Kansas instead of Japan. They were walking the dogs at a stopover and put them back in the wrong kennels.
 
Trebuchet said:
That's correct. All pressurized, but not necessarily heated.
Click to expand...

For what it's worth an August 2017 incident on a United flight involving the death of a dog in a cargo hold was blamed on the climate control in the cargo hold malfunctioning, so there's something there in some cases at least.
 
Belz... said:
Math's overrated. We're in the post-fact world, now.
Click to expand...

That really does seem to be the argument being mad.

Passenger: "This pet carrier is airline approved!"
Reality: "Well the space under the seat is physically smaller than the carrier and it's not a TARDIS so..."
Passenger: "Are you telling me this pet carrier is not airline approved?"
Reality: "No I'm telling you that an airline policy can't override how objects interact in space."
Passenger: "So... can I put my pet under the seat or not?"
 
Six months ago I flew on Alaska Airlines with my puppy, cost $150. The carrier+dog fit comfortably under the seat, remaining there for the duration of the 2.5 hour flight. The carrier was advertised as airline compliant. I don't recall if it had to be squashed down in order to fit. (It being the carrier.)
 
Last edited:
JoeMorgue said:
There's no way the space shown in that stock photo is legit.



The average underseat space is 19x19x9.5. United's is 9x10x17 inches according to their website.



The product dimensions for the carrier shown in that photo is 17.5x10x11.



There's no way that photo represents any real world scenario. The math just doesn't add up.
Click to expand...



I’ve seen pet carriers fit under the seat. Maybe they have to be stuffed a little bit but they do work. I think in the real world, the actual space under seats is a bit bigger than they claim.

I’d bet that the carrier may have been technically small enough to work but the dog was a bit too big for it.
 
JoeMorgue said:
There's no way the space shown in that stock photo is legit.

The average underseat space is 19x19x9.5. United's is 9x10x17 inches according to their website.

The product dimensions for the carrier shown in that photo is 17.5x10x11.

There's no way that photo represents any real world scenario. The math just doesn't add up.
Click to expand...

United's allowed dimensions are posted somewhere upthread. They actually allow for soft-sided carriers to be squished down a bit.
 
I am not certain why we appear to be talking past one another here- different planes clearly have different under-seat dimensions and that is determined both by the basic design and by the specific configuration ordered by each airline. Plus many airlines now further differentiate coach into additional, ever smaller categories (coach+ vs coach vs cattle car vs. casket...). Use of the space under the seat in front is also affected in practice by the distance between it and your own feet, which is determined by the "pitch" of the seats and the distance between the seats. So, "results may vary."

It is therefore fiction for an airline to say that the underseat space is "X." It will depend on the airplane they roll out. Perhaps they can suggest that the space will be, at minimum, X, but that is not really all that useful- what if the particular plane assigned to your flight would work for your Corgi even if another plane would not? The airlines do often try to indicate the model of plane in advance online, but that will not always tell you the particular seating configuration the airline has installed in their version of that plane model. Nor can you assume that a different plane will not be rolled out at the last minute.

In other words- flying with a pet can be an adventure.
 
RecoveringYuppy said:
Pretty sure that every area within the fuselage is pressurized. It would compromise the design of the fuselage if it weren't so. It's simply easier to pressurize the round shape of the fuselage rather than design the flat floors of the passenger area to be pressure barriers.

Heating and ventilation are different matters of course.
Click to expand...

I remember now- there was a fatal accident in which a cargo door blew off, depressurizing the cargo hold, which sucked down the floor of the passenger compartment enough to interfere with control cables. American Airlines 96.
 
smartcooky said:
Game over.

1. United admitted they were in the wrong
2. United admitted their staff violated their own procedures

A large payout will be made to the pet owner to keep it out of court. It doesn't matter what people think about pets on flights or emotional support dogs, or pet carrier sizes or anything else... its all irrelevant.

End of discussion..... until the next time United cocks something up.
Click to expand...

So...Tuesday, then?
 
Giordano said:
I remember now- there was a fatal accident in which a cargo door blew off, depressurizing the cargo hold, which sucked down the floor of the passenger compartment enough to interfere with control cables. American Airlines 96.
Click to expand...
That was quite a while ago wasn't it? These days there are vents in the floor to stop the pressure difference that collapsed the floor.
 
Giordano said:
I am not certain why we appear to be talking past one another here- different planes clearly have different under-seat dimensions and that is determined both by the basic design and by the specific configuration ordered by each airline. Plus many airlines now further differentiate coach into additional, ever smaller categories (coach+ vs coach vs cattle car vs. casket...). Use of the space under the seat in front is also affected in practice by the distance between it and your own feet, which is determined by the "pitch" of the seats and the distance between the seats. So, "results may vary."

It is therefore fiction for an airline to say that the underseat space is "X." It will depend on the airplane they roll out. Perhaps they can suggest that the space will be, at minimum, X, but that is not really all that useful- what if the particular plane assigned to your flight would work for your Corgi even if another plane would not? The airlines do often try to indicate the model of plane in advance online, but that will not always tell you the particular seating configuration the airline has installed in their version of that plane model. Nor can you assume that a different plane will not be rolled out at the last minute.

In other words- flying with a pet can be an adventure.
Click to expand...

Absolutely. That is something the pet policy does not mention at all. Some of those commuter planes are not going to fit a carrier under the seat. The policy makes it sound like underseat space is standard but that has not been my experience.

We have a Toy Poodle who would technically fit under the seat but I cannot bring myself to confine her like that for hours just so I can have her on a trip; seems selfish. No way in Hell would I transport her in the cargo hold. I'm probably being oversensitive . . . If I were moving across the ocean, I'd say she was an emotional support animal and take her on a cruise ship! :D Luckily, we have kids and family members who love her too so it isn't a problem leaving her behind.
 
JoeMorgue said:
No, to be clear I'm not saying that the size limits United has on their website are wrong. I'm saying the size limits as posted on their website even if accurate are far to small to fit even a toy dog in a soft sided carrier under.
Click to expand...
My apologies, I misremembered. I re-read your earlier post mentioning the maximum size of 9in x 10in x 17in, which is indeed mentioned on this United page. That page also, however, contains a link to this other page "Traveling with in-cabin pets", which says:
In-cabin pet kennels

A pet traveling in cabin must be carried in an approved hard-sided or soft-sided kennel. The kennel must fit completely under the seat in front of the customer and remain there at all times. The maximum dimensions for hard-sided kennels are 17.5 inches long x 12 inches wide x 7.5 inches high (44 cm x 30 cm x 19 cm). The recommended maximum dimensions for soft-sided kennels are 18 inches long x 11 inches wide x 11 inches high (46 cm x 28 cm x 28 cm). Soft-sided pet carriers may exceed these dimensions slightly, as they are collapsible and able to conform to under-seat space without blocking the aisle. With the exception of birds, there may only be one pet per kennel, and the animal must be able to stand up and turn around comfortably. Two birds may travel in the same kennel.
Click to expand...
So, apparently, when the underseat luggage is a kennel, United manages to expand the fabric of space so it fits with the soft-sided kennels you found:
The absolute smallest pet carrier I could find on Petsmart's website is a soft sided one (basically a glorified duffel bag with mesh panels) that is 17 x 11 x 10.5. The smallest hard sided pet carrier is 20 x 13 x 11.
Click to expand...
(not the hard-sided though).

But put a bit more seriously, for "normal" underseat luggage, United apparently has stricter maximum measures than strictly necessary.

JoeMorgue said:
Which is why I found the whole "Oh have you ever flown?" snark I got so unnecessary. I've flown dozens of times and never once encountered a seat far enough off the floor of the plane to have enough space for pet storage.
Click to expand...
I want to go it on record that I have not engaged in that snark and my comment was taking your input seriously. I have never felt the inclination to take a pet on board, never seen anyone else do it, and I never felt the inclination to put any luggage underseat and not in the overhead bin, and all these measures in inches are alien to me so I don't have any connection with how wide that is.
 
William Parcher said:
It's not even a dog carrier. It's a Dog Euthanasia Chamber. Warning, you are going to see a dead dog in the second photo...

https://co-a1.azureedge.net/co-uploads/2018/03/Dog-united-airlines-dies-.jpg

https://apuntoenlinea.com/wp-conten...naran-guardarlo-entre-el-equipaje-de-mano.jpg


Mom looks like a porn star.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...gation-launched-puppy-dies-United-flight.html
Click to expand...

Is that a pet carrier or not?

It looks like a poorly designed one.
 
LTC8K6 said:
Is that a pet carrier or not? It looks like a poorly designed one.
Click to expand...
I don't think it is. I see no mesh for air circulation. There's a mesh pocket on the inside which a dog would tear apart. Nothing makes sense as a dog or cat carrier. The only way it could work is if you have their head sticking out of the top opening and then zipped snug so they don't crawl out.
 
That is a pet carrier, but that dog is probably far too big to comfortably stand up and turn around inside of it, especially the turn around part. None of this excuses the airline for their idiocy, but I've seen a ton of these types of carriers and they seem to work just fine. FTR: I own 4 dogs, the largest of which weighs 19 lbs and the combines weight of all 4 would be under 30 lbs, so I have experience with these types of carriers.

The inside of the carrier, top part of the picture (in the dead dog pic) shows that the actual wall is a fine mesh. You can actually see the carpet through it. These carriers tend to be decent for ventilation, but I would never put one of my dogs in this for an extended period of time (more than 30 minutes) without the opportunity to check on it and be sure it was ok, much less this dog which looks oversized for this carrier.
 
Those overhead bins get totally filled up with carry-on luggage. The void space inside becomes almost nothing and then the solid door is latched shut. The dog carrier was probably not isolated, so one or both mesh panels were flat up against something else. Then they say the dog was barking in there so it's expending energy and breathing much more than if relaxed.

Maybe it was carbon dioxide poisoning that killed it.
 
William Parcher said:
Those overhead bins get totally filled up with carry-on luggage. The void space inside becomes almost nothing and then the solid door is latched shut. The dog carrier was probably not isolated, so one or both mesh panels were flat up against something else. Then they say the dog was barking in there so it's expending energy and breathing much more than if relaxed.

Maybe it was carbon dioxide poisoning that killed it.
Click to expand...

Approximating the size of the dog from pictures I think that even a standard overhead compartment with no luggage would be questionable in terms of the dog's breathing requirements. With luggage I would think the dog would have asphyxiated (from CO2 and/or lack of O2) in very little time.

I would also guess that heat stress contributed. Very small space, limited or no air circulation- the temperature would have begun to increase immediately. Plus the increasing accumulation of humidity from the dog's exhaled breath in the confined space would have made it harder and harder for the dog to dump more heat into its environment, A horrible way to die.
 
William Parcher said:
I don't think it is. I see no mesh for air circulation. There's a mesh pocket on the inside which a dog would tear apart. Nothing makes sense as a dog or cat carrier. The only way it could work is if you have their head sticking out of the top opening and then zipped snug so they don't crawl out.
Click to expand...
The picture with the dead dog in it clearly shows a mesh side.
 
Finally saw a picture. It is one of those dogs that have trouble breathing

Idiots
 
cullennz said:
Finally saw a picture. It is one of those dogs that have trouble breathing
Click to expand...

It does now, on account of being dead. It would have continued to breathe OK had it been treated like a sentient animal and not a piece of trash.
 
P.J. Denyer said:
I don't think they like passengers very much. Of any variety. Admittedly, if I was a stewie I don't think I would either but...

The mixed up dogs was an understandable, all be it truly stupid and careless, mistake. At least they were giving them a walk.
Click to expand...
It's well known that organisations that deal with customers would work much better without customers!
 
cullennz said:
Finally saw a picture. It is one of those dogs that have trouble breathing

Idiots
Click to expand...



Interestingly, American specifically restricts “brachyocephalic or snub nose” breeds from traveling in the cargo hold so they do recognize that such dogs have risks they don’t want to take on. I would imagine the overhead bins are a teensy bit more cramped and air-compromised than the cargo hold.
 
P.J. Denyer said:
My last degu died recently, they are such great pets. Shame you're not in the UK I have a huge cage and a bag or two of degu food that needs a good home.
Click to expand...

Huge cage you say? Mine's a full meter high. It's just really annoying to clean.

But yeah, they're awesome pets. The digging can get annoying at times, so I have plastic cutouts around the bottom of the cage. But otherwise they're cuddly and fun, and always the explorers.
 
P.J. Denyer said:
I don't think they like passengers very much. Of any variety. Admittedly, if I was a stewie I don't think I would either but...

The mixed up dogs was an understandable, all be it truly stupid and careless, mistake. At least they were giving them a walk.
Click to expand...

There was a report this morning that the dogs were being cared for by a third party prior, a commercial kennel, prior to flight. I'm guessing a couple of teen employees walked them and put them back in the wrong kennels.
ABC had the owner and Irgo on this morning. She said United was going to fly him back in the first-class cabin but changed their mind and used an executive jet. She joked he'll never want to fly Coach again.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom