Should we fear Bernie?

JoeMorgue said:
Again I get that there is absolutely no way to say this without it coming across as some treacle nationlistic "'Murica! Love it or leave it! Yee-haw!" type screed but again we are sort of reaching the point where if "Well so and so country makes it work" is the answer to everything, questions as to what about America we are trying to save or preserve do start to be put onto the table and... why on a personal level, not as a moralistic judgement but as a simple question of personal effeciency "Well why not just move to Sweden if everything they do there is better then the way we do it here" start to become less avoidable.

I'm being 100% serious here. Wouldn't just moving to Europe just be easier if everything they do is better and nobody is going to fight you when you want to do it that way?
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You don't think it's possible to both love one's country and recognise it's flaws and want to make it better? Whatever one's political stripe or what shape that 'better' is?

And don't you think it's reasonable, in any arena, to look at the way similar things are done differntly in other paces and ask if it's better?
 
3point14 said:
You don't think it's possible to both love one's country and recognise it's flaws and want to make it better?
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//Thinking of the best way to word this and it ain't 100% easy, fair enough?//

I think if there's two girls; Pammy and Tammy, and I say I love Pammy but I "admit Pammy has flaws" but when asked to explain what Pammy could do better all I can ever say is "She should be more like Tammy" and when I describe my ideal version of Pammy it's functionally the same girl as Tammy then... I really love Tammy.

(G)You can love America and want it to be more like Europe. But if "Be more like Europe" is the only reference point you have, that... means something. No I can't define some "Does it still meet the Strunk & White Definition of Patriotism" point and whether or not it crosses it, but it means something.
 
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I guess since Bernie is I'm told rebooting 60's activism it makes sense that someone in return reboot "America: love it or leave it" jingoism.

Circle of life, etc.
 
Nah, it's just JoeMorgue's contrarianism. If he can't beg the notion that pointing to a successful implementation of an idea means copying every other aspect of the entity in question and object to it on that basis, what would he have to feel superior about?
 
JoeMorgue said:
//Thinking of the best way to word this and it ain't 100% easy, fair enough?//

I think if there's two girls; Pammy and Tammy, and I say I love Pammy but I "admit Pammy has flaws" but when asked to explain what Pammy could do better all I can ever say is "She should be more like Tammy" and when I describe my ideal version of Pammy it's functionally the same girl as Tammy then... I really love Tammy.

(G)You can love America and want it to be more like Europe. But if "Be more like Europe" is the only reference point you have, that... means something. No I can't define some "Does it still meet the Strunk & White Definition of Patriotism" point and whether or not it crosses it, but it means something.
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I don't know . . . Maybe Pammy is super hot and Tammy is just ok?

It's funny, isn't it? It's the dream of so many people all over the world to become US citizens. I was listening to This American Life and it was about this guy from Somalia, being persecuted in his homeland and his dream wasn't to become a citizen of Norway, Sweden, Denmark or some more accessable country where things would be better for him. It was to travel across an ocean and become an American citizen. I can't put my finger on the exact reasons why, but America has a lure that no other place does. Even though, objectively and by many measures there are other countries that are "better" than us on paper.

I have a lot of extended family that lives in poverty and things are tough. They want things to be better here, but they don't pine for leaving to some Social Democracy where things are already better. It's simply not bad enough here for that to happen, which I think is the bottom line.
 
JoeMorgue said:
//Thinking of the best way to word this and it ain't 100% easy, fair enough?//

I think if there's two girls; Pammy and Tammy, and I say I love Pammy but I "admit Pammy has flaws" but when asked to explain what Pammy could do better all I can ever say is "She should be more like Tammy" and when I describe my ideal version of Pammy it's functionally the same girl as Tammy then... I really love Tammy.

(G)You can love America and want it to be more like Europe. But if "Be more like Europe" is the only reference point you have, that... means something. No I can't define some "Does it still meet the Strunk & White Definition of Patriotism" point and whether or not it crosses it, but it means something.
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I'm surprised no one has mentioned this as an objection to you proposition of just up and moving, but it's important: Family and Friends. It takes a lot for some people to just dismiss their family and friends and move somewhere brand new. And it's not at all like just moving across the border from Germany to Austria or something like that; in moving from the US to Europe we're talking about moving nearly a quarter way around the globe.
 
Steve said:
Why do you claim to want that?
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Cuz I was shocked to read what he wants to do to corporations with regards to boards and shares and "diversity boards".

I thought he really was just a Social Democrat. I was wrong.

He is a Socialist and that's why he is going down. We don't want Socialism, in any form.
 
Hercules56 said:
We don't want Socialism, in any form.
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I'm glad to hear you're going to refuse to accept Social Security payments. I hope you realize that even if you send the full amount back to the government it'll still be taxed as income. A small price to pay for Freedom! from Socialism, though.
 
Hercules56 said:
Cuz I was shocked to read what he wants to do to corporations with regards to boards and shares and "diversity boards".

I thought he really was just a Social Democrat. I was wrong.

He is a Socialist and that's why he is going down. We don't want Socialism, in any form.
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If he is " going down" and you are good with that why would you care what he sounds like? He already sounds way more viable to be president than your current dude.
 
I haven't seen anybody drop the "just leave" crap on a conversation since Trump's election night, when so many people swarmed Canada's immigration department's website that they crashed it.

I guess there's only so long you can expect a fact to affect Trumpers' behavior. This one lasted longer than most.
 
dudalb said:
Question is whether or not something that might work in, say, Norway would work equally well in the US. I am not sure it would.
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You know, there is a way to find out: try it.
It's not that a UHC would be irreversible - there is too much Domino Theory thinking going on when it comes to Socialist policies in the US.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
You know, there is a way to find out: try it.

It's not that a UHC would be irreversible - there is too much Domino Theory thinking going on when it comes to Socialist policies in the US.
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Ok, let’s just pass the legislation. Easy-peasy.

But that’s the snag in the whole “try it” plan. M4A bills have been introduced in every Congress since 2003 or so and they go nowhere, not even among Democrats.

And when the proposals finally do get serious attention, there are going to be a lot of objections from the stakeholders in the medical profession. Such objections led to the many shortcomings of ACA.

As far as being irreversible, long experience has shown that it’s much easier to pass a sweeping social reform than to revoke it.
 
There is a difference between "wouldn't work in the US" and "can't be passed into law in the US".
I was questioning the former, not the latter.
 
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The Great Zaganza said:
There is a difference between "wouldn't work in the US" and "can't be passed into law in the US".
I was questioning the former, not the later.
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Sure, but we can’t try it until we pass it.

It will work in the US; I don’t doubt that at all. The real question is: are the various stakeholders willing to make the compromises necessary to actually make it work?
 
JoeMorgue said:
//Thinking of the best way to word this and it ain't 100% easy, fair enough?//

I think if there's two girls; Pammy and Tammy, and I say I love Pammy but I "admit Pammy has flaws" but when asked to explain what Pammy could do better all I can ever say is "She should be more like Tammy" and when I describe my ideal version of Pammy it's functionally the same girl as Tammy then... I really love Tammy.

(G)You can love America and want it to be more like Europe. But if "Be more like Europe" is the only reference point you have, that... means something. No I can't define some "Does it still meet the Strunk & White Definition of Patriotism" point and whether or not it crosses it, but it means something.
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I ask again - as you seem to feel that it's got to a tipping point where people are not loving America and are instead loving European countries, what specifically is it that you feel has gone too far? What aspects of America that people are seeking to change do you feel should not be changed? And is the reason you feel they should not be changed truly that you feel America wouldn't be America if they were?
 
xjx388 said:
I don't know . . . Maybe Pammy is super hot and Tammy is just ok?

It's funny, isn't it? It's the dream of so many people all over the world to become US citizens. I was listening to This American Life and it was about this guy from Somalia, being persecuted in his homeland and his dream wasn't to become a citizen of Norway, Sweden, Denmark or some more accessable country where things would be better for him. It was to travel across an ocean and become an American citizen. I can't put my finger on the exact reasons why, but America has a lure that no other place does. Even though, objectively and by many measures there are other countries that are "better" than us on paper.

I have a lot of extended family that lives in poverty and things are tough. They want things to be better here, but they don't pine for leaving to some Social Democracy where things are already better. It's simply not bad enough here for that to happen, which I think is the bottom line.
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I think you'll find that countries other than America have their fair share of refugees. 29% of the population of Sweden are immigrants, compared to 15% of the US population. In Luxembourg it's 46%.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/03/which-countries-have-the-most-immigrants-51048ff1f9/
 
theprestige said:
Refugees and economic migrants seem to do it all the time with little more than the clothes on their backs. If you can't afford health care, can you really afford *not* to move?
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Do you think refugees and economic migrants do this voluntarily?
 
JoeMorgue said:
//Thinking of the best way to word this and it ain't 100% easy, fair enough?//

I think if there's two girls; Pammy and Tammy, and I say I love Pammy but I "admit Pammy has flaws" but when asked to explain what Pammy could do better all I can ever say is "She should be more like Tammy" and when I describe my ideal version of Pammy it's functionally the same girl as Tammy then... I really love Tammy.

(G)You can love America and want it to be more like Europe. But if "Be more like Europe" is the only reference point you have, that... means something. No I can't define some "Does it still meet the Strunk & White Definition of Patriotism" point and whether or not it crosses it, but it means something.
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I think you're pretty heavily misinterpreting the desire of others here.

It's not 'Be more like Europe', it's more 'How can we have better healthcare? and 'Where in the world is the healthcare better and cheaper?'

Then you go looking for examples. Other countries do it all the time. China have decided they want to do manned missions to space, so they said 'who does this well', looked to the USA and decided to borrow a load of their methods, not because they want to be more like the USA but because they want a space program as good as the one in the US.

It's the same with healthcare. Hell, it was the same with electricity or railroads. it was probably the same with early subsistence farming or knapping - seeing it done better in the next village over and trying it that way.

You seem obsessed with the 'over there' bit of 'it works over there' rather than the 'it works' bit.
 
xjx388 said:
I don't know . . . Maybe Pammy is super hot and Tammy is just ok?

It's funny, isn't it? It's the dream of so many people all over the world to become US citizens. I was listening to This American Life and it was about this guy from Somalia, being persecuted in his homeland and his dream wasn't to become a citizen of Norway, Sweden, Denmark or some more accessable country where things would be better for him. It was to travel across an ocean and become an American citizen. I can't put my finger on the exact reasons why, but America has a lure that no other place does. Even though, objectively and by many measures there are other countries that are "better" than us on paper.
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The power of advertising is a stunning thing. Add to that America's (albeit shrinking) reputation for taking in 'huddled masses yearning to be free' and the language issue and it's pretty straightforward.


I have a lot of extended family that lives in poverty and things are tough. They want things to be better here, but they don't pine for leaving to some Social Democracy where things are already better. It's simply not bad enough here for that to happen, which I think is the bottom line.
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3point14 said:
The power of advertising is a stunning thing. Add to that America's (albeit shrinking) reputation for taking in 'huddled masses yearning to be free' and the language issue and it's pretty straightforward.
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I think you misrepresent the phrase. It ends with "who can stand on their own two feet". I have this on government authority, and nobody needs to double check what it actually says.
 
3point14 said:
I think you're pretty heavily misinterpreting the desire of others here.

It's not 'Be more like Europe', it's more 'How can we have better healthcare? and 'Where in the world is the healthcare better and cheaper?'

Then you go looking for examples. Other countries do it all the time. China have decided they want to do manned missions to space, so they said 'who does this well', looked to the USA and decided to borrow a load of their methods, not because they want to be more like the USA but because they want a space program as good as the one in the US.

It's the same with healthcare. Hell, it was the same with electricity or railroads. it was probably the same with early subsistence farming or knapping - seeing it done better in the next village over and trying it that way.

You seem obsessed with the 'over there' bit of 'it works over there' rather than the 'it works' bit.
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The racists don't approve of that attitude!!! :) New Ad Upsets Nazis
 
xjx388 said:
The real question is: are the various stakeholders willing to make the compromises necessary to actually make it work?
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No, they aren't and won't. It would mean asking the rich to slightly lower their income. That's like expecting a highway driver to stop accelerating for one second to allow another car to merge. It is very rare for people to rein in their selfishness for the good of others, even in the most minimal way.
 
TragicMonkey said:
No, they aren't and won't. It would mean asking the rich to slightly lower their income. That's like expecting a highway driver to stop accelerating for one second to allow another car to merge. It is very rare for people to rein in their selfishness for the good of others, even in the most minimal way.
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That post is depressing but unfortunately correct.
 
Belz... said:
That post is depressing but unfortunately correct.
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I have a very dim view of human nature for a while in mornings after my commute. Today I saw someone refuse to let a tanker truck with "Danger: Explosive" signs merge. They literally preferred a potential fiery death to taking their speed down a notch for a moment.
 
TragicMonkey said:
I have a very dim view of human nature for a while in mornings after my commute. Today I saw someone refuse to let a tanker truck with "Danger: Explosive" signs merge. They literally preferred a potential fiery death to taking their speed down a notch for a moment.
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And don't get me started on how people park...
 
xjx388 said:
It's funny, isn't it? It's the dream of so many people all over the world to become US citizens. I was listening to This American Life and it was about this guy from Somalia, being persecuted in his homeland and his dream wasn't to become a citizen of Norway, Sweden, Denmark or some more accessable country where things would be better for him. It was to travel across an ocean and become an American citizen. I can't put my finger on the exact reasons why, but America has a lure that no other place does. Even though, objectively and by many measures there are other countries that are "better" than us on paper.
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Because America is the "lottery" of countries. To them, in the US, with absolutely nothing more than hard work and determination you can be a millionaire! They're coming from extreme poverty and to them their best chance at striking it rich is in the US because there's no rhyme or reason to how people get rich here.
 
Some days it feels like the USA has a massive gambling problem that we can manage just fine, we can quit when we start to fall in the hole, anytime we want. Don't worry China, we'll pay you back once we make this big win....
 
StillSleepy said:
Some days it feels like the USA has a massive gambling problem that we can manage just fine, we can quit when we start to fall in the hole, anytime we want. Don't worry China, we'll pay you back once we make this big win....
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I think with the amounts owed, a default would be a much bigger problem for China than for the US. I think China would be highly motivated to restructure the debt, rather than allow themselves to fall into a situation where the US had to default.
 
plague311 said:
Because America is the "lottery" of countries. To them, in the US, with absolutely nothing more than hard work and determination you can be a millionaire! They're coming from extreme poverty and to them their best chance at striking it rich is in the US because there's no rhyme or reason to how people get rich here.
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There's also an issue where American salaries are really high compared to some countries...but people marvelling at the higher salaries sometimes don't take into account the higher cost of living. Sure, I make ten thousand times more than Sad Peasant in Poor Country...but my expenses are a hundred thousand times more than Sad Peasant's in Poor Country. He's not going to find housing for two cents a month here.
 
Hercules56 said:
Bernie's been in government for a few decades now. He seems like a nice guy who's never been able to do much with his ideas.

But happens if he wins? What happens if all of his ideas suddenly are backed by major power?
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I foresee basically two (widely divergent) possibilities.

1) POLITICAL GRIDLOCK: Bernie doesn't help the down-ballot (establishment Democrat) candidates enough to keep the House and take the Senate. He is actively running against the Democratic establishment, so that makes it hard for him to uplift their folks, with a few DSA-flavoured exceptions who strive to come off as outsiders. His first term ends up resembling Obama's second, at best.

2) POLITICAL REVOLUTION: A wave of disaffected former non-voters storm the polls and sweep Democrats into control of both chambers and the White House. Bernie's first term involves dramatic and hitherto unseen reforms such as breaking up most of the financial sector into fragments small enough not to show up on any list of systemically important banksWP, taxing the fortunes of the capitalist class, and forcing major corporations to provide significant equity to their employees, not to mention expansions of federal spending programs unknown since FDR. Modern monetary theoryWP will finally be put to the test.

Neither of these scenarios strikes me as particularly appealing, and while intermediate scenarios surely exist, I'm not much liking those either.
 
d4m10n said:
I foresee basically two (widely divergent) possibilities.

1) POLITICAL GRIDLOCK: Bernie doesn't help the down-ballot (establishment Democrat) candidates enough to keep the House and take the Senate. He is actively running against the Democratic establishment, so that makes it hard for him to uplift their folks, with a few DSA-flavoured exceptions who strive to come off as outsiders. His first term ends up resembling Obama's second, at best.

2) POLITICAL REVOLUTION: A wave of disaffected former non-voters storm the polls and sweep Democrats into control of both chambers and the White House. Bernie's first term involves dramatic and hitherto unseen reforms such as breaking up most of the financial sector into fragments small enough not to show up on any list of systemically important banksWP, taxing the fortunes of the capitalist class, and forcing major corporations to provide significant equity to their employees, not to mention expansions of federal spending programs unknown since FDR. Modern monetary theoryWP will finally be put to the test.

Neither of these scenarios strikes me as particularly appealing, and while intermediate scenarios surely exist, I'm not much liking those either.
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And Re-education camps. Don't forget those.
 
3point14 said:
And don't you think it's reasonable, in any arena, to look at the way similar things are done differntly in other paces and ask if it's better?
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Do you ever stop and ask why things are done differently in different part of the world?

Do you hold non-white countries to the same standards? (we know the answer to this)
 
3point14 said:
I think you're pretty heavily misinterpreting the desire of others here.

It's not 'Be more like Europe', it's more 'How can we have better healthcare? and 'Where in the world is the healthcare better and cheaper?'

Then you go looking for examples. Other countries do it all the time. China have decided they want to do manned missions to space, so they said 'who does this well', looked to the USA and decided to borrow a load of their methods, not because they want to be more like the USA but because they want a space program as good as the one in the US.

It's the same with healthcare. Hell, it was the same with electricity or railroads. it was probably the same with early subsistence farming or knapping - seeing it done better in the next village over and trying it that way.

You seem obsessed with the 'over there' bit of 'it works over there' rather than the 'it works' bit.
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I know right?

Come to think of it, why isn't Estonia a global hegemony? Also, why isn't Somalia a world super power? It works over here so it must work everywhere according to skeptics.
 
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