Moderated Iron sun with Aether batteries...

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Why do you ask me the same question and ignore my answer over and over again?

The "light" we observe in the original images comes from the coronal loops or electrical discharges in the atmosphere. At *MOST* we might see light reflected from the surface, but in all likelihood all the light comes from small loops near the surface, but not the surface itself. The surface terrain dictates the emissions patterns, but it too is volcanic and changes over time.

Nobody ever claimed that the whole surface was 160,000K. That's your own little strawman. Scratch that from your list. :)
 
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Ok, so why doesn't a basketball go completely flat the moment we puncture it?

Frequently they don't go completely flat. But surface tension isn't involved. Basketballs retain their shape while inflated because of BULK stress within the material, not surface tension. Do you even know what "surface tension" means?
 
Ok, so why doesn't a basketball go completely flat the moment we puncture it?
:confused:
Perhaps you should read through the calculation on material strength v.s. gravity shown up-tread?
It showed that a hollow iron shell with the mass of the sun have higher gravity to material strength ratio than e.g. a basketball.
 
Here's the LMSAL image that demonstrates that the footprints of the loops are located *UNDER*, not above the photosphere. Notice the effect on the surface of the photosphere from the coronal loops passing through it.

http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com/images/15 April 2001 WL.gif
There's the LMSAL image that demonstrates that you have the delusion that the footprints of the loops are located *UNDER*, not above the photosphere. Notice the effect on the surface of the photosphere from the coronal loops passing through it.

The definition of coronal loop footprints is that they are where the coronal loops meet the photosphere. The coronal loops do have an effect on the photosphere since they are magnetic fields passing through a plasma that changes density a lot.
 
Frequently they don't go completely flat. But surface tension isn't involved. Basketballs retain their shape while inflated because of BULK stress within the material, not surface tension. Do you even know what "surface tension" means?

Well, ok, that was sloppy verbiage on my part going from one analogy to another. I'll concede that point. Let's talk "bulk stress" then as it relates to solids. That same issue still applies. The overall shell need not necessarily be less dense than the material inside the sphere. In no way can you simply "assume" that the core will necessarily be more dense than the outside solids, nor can we know the "depth" of the outside surface simply by looking at from the outside. The overall "mass" might tells us more, but we can't automatically assume any solid shell model will necessarily requires a solid sphere, or a dense core. IMO branc's argument is more likely to work best in a hollow sphere scenario where the sphere acts as a resonance cavity for outside waves of energy. Just my two cents mind you....it is his model after all.
 
Why do you ask me the same question and ignore my answer over and over again?

The "light" we observe in the original images comes from the coronal loops or electrical discharges in the atmosphere. At *MOST* we might see light reflected from the surface, but in all likelihood all the light comes from small loops near the surface, but not the surface itself. The surface terrain dictates the emissions patterns, but it too is volcanic and changes over time.

Nobody ever claimed that the whole surface was 160,000K. That's your own little strawman. Scratch that from your list. :)
Why do you give me the same answer and ignore my question over and over again?

Or maybe this is yet another example of your ignorance.
All of the light in the TRACE RD image comes from material at a temperature > 160,000 K.
 
All of the light in the TRACE RD image comes from material at a temperature > 160,000 K.

Yes, I just said that. Nobody said the light came from the surface. It originates in the discharge processes along the surface terrain. The discharge processes are also highly sensitive to volcanic activity which tends to create massive discharges processes in the solar atmosphere.
 
Let's talk "bulk stress" then as it relates to solids. That same issue still applies. The overall shell need not necessarily be less dense than the material inside the sphere. In no way can you simply "assume" that the core will necessarily be more dense than the outside solids, nor can we know the "depth" of the outside surface simply by looking at from the outside.

First off, I made no assumptions about the thickness of the shell. Secondly, both your model and brantc's require that the shell not extend to the core (otherwise the mass of the sun will be wildly wrong), and I included that in my calculations, so I don't know why you're saying that we can't assume the core is more dense when I explicitly included a massless core within my calculations. And third, if you had understood my calculation, you'd know that the required pressures in the shell are higher if there is any mass within the shell. By assuming no mass within the shell, I'm actually being generous to the model.
 
The substance with the highest known melting point is tantalum hafnium carbide, about 7600 degrees F. Just throwing in my two cents' worth of trivia.

You sell yourself short. It was worth at least a nickel, maybe even a quarter if you'd added the conversion to Kelvins for me. :)
 
Yes, I just said that. Nobody said the light came from the surface. It originates in the discharge processes along the surface terrain. The discharge processes are also highly sensitive to volcanic activity which tends to create massive discharges processes in the solar atmosphere.
But your claim is that the RD movie shows actual mountain ranges, not "light ranges". That is impossible.

The other impossible claim is the usual idiocy of discharges in a plasma.
 
Just out of morbid curiosity, how are the RD images I cited a "fraud" in your opinion? How does one "fake" a running difference image exactly?

Just out of morbid curiosity, lets see exactly what you posted:
Originally Posted by GeeMack
What you have said about them is in direct contradiction to the people who created them. You said you could make one. Do it.

http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com/images/AM-A.JPG
http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com/images/AM-B.JPG
http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com/images/PM-A.gif
http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com/images/PM-B.gif
Let's see you "do" one.
You are saying that thesed 4 images are RD images that you created.

But...
  • There is no evidence of this. You have not stated what original images you used or what processing you did.
  • They look suspiciously like normal solar images, pehaps with contract turned up.
As GeeMack asked:
First asked 6 April 2010
Which images did you use as your input for the PM-A.gif image? What mathematical process did you apply to obtain your result? In that image, the pixel in column 1371, row 758 has a value of about 20% black. Why is it that color? (Prediction: I don't think you have the qualifications you claim and you can't answer this question because you don't understand running difference images. I predict a tantrum instead because blowing your problems off onto other people is one of your dishonest tactics to distract from the legitimate questions you can't answer.)

Where in that image do you believe you're seeing solid physical features? Why does no professional physicist on Earth agree that's what you're seeing? And perhaps most importantly, what is it about the creation process that makes you think you see physical features below the photosphere when the data gathered to create the original images was taken from thousands of kilometers above the photosphere?
...
In your image PM-A.gif, or any running difference image or video for that matter, what is it about the process of creating a simple graphical representation of a series of mathematical calculations that you believe allows you to see physical features below the photosphere when the data used to create the original images was taken from thousands of kilometers above the photosphere?
 
But your claim is that the RD movie shows actual mountain ranges, not "light ranges". That is impossible.

You are still not hearing me, or not understanding me. The *ORIGINAL* light sources are coronal loops. The terrain dictates the overall discharge patterns, as does the atmospheric plasma flow.

The other impossible claim is the usual idiocy of discharges in a plasma.

The belief that discharges do not occur in a plasma is itself idiocy. FYI most plasmas (including the photosphere) are "dusty" meaning they are composed of non ionized liquids if not solids, not simply plasma.
 
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Well, keep in mind that solid metals would have an electrostatic attraction, particularly in an electrically active environment.

Solid metals would have an electrostatic attraction or repulsion, depending on their relative charges. On an object the size of brantc's sun, however, electrostatic forces would be utterly irrelevant compared to gravity. (Though maybe not brantc's version of gravity, but we don't know how that's supposed to work yet.)
 
Solid metals would have an electrostatic attraction or repulsion, depending on their relative charges.

In a "current carrying" environment they would tend to simply collect and act as conductors.

On an object the size of brantc's sun, however, electrostatic forces would be utterly irrelevant compared to gravity.

I'm not so sure about that, particularly in a very active electrical environment. I think that's an assumption based on many unknowns, particularly about the inside of the sphere and the depth of the crust.

(Though maybe not brantc's version of gravity, but we don't know how that's supposed to work yet.)

Me either. :) GR works for me. :)
 
I'm not so sure about that, particularly in a very active electrical environment. I think that's an assumption based on many unknowns, particularly about the inside of the sphere and the depth of the crust.

Brantc thinks the sun is a roughly 94,000,000 metre thick iron shell, with a radius of 695,000,000 metres and a mass of 7,874 kg m-3. If he envisages some internal supporting structure, he hasn't described it.

If you can envisage some electromagnetic effect which could provide some of the 99.99% missing mechanical support for brantc's iron shell, then by all means let's hear about it.
 
Brantc thinks the sun is a roughly 94,000,000 metre thick iron shell, with a radius of 695,000,000 metres and a mass of 7,874 kg m-3. If he envisages some internal supporting structure, he hasn't described it.

If you can envisage some electromagnetic effect which could provide some of the 99.99% missing mechanical support for brantc's iron shell, then by all means let's hear about it.

Well, first of all I would tend to start by shedding some weight and begin with a generic crust density like we find on Earth or Mars, or perhaps Mercury. I'd then thin the crust some and put the shell on the weight reduction program. :)
 
Yes, I understand the math involved in creating the graphs.

So what? What do you know about solar physics or satellite images in general?


Solar physics? I know that a solid surface on the Sun has been shown not to exist by the science of helioseismology, has been shown not to exist by the science of gravity/general relativity, and has been shown to be impossible by the science of thermodynamics.

Satellite images in general? I know that the reason the 171Å and 195Å filters are used to obtain the images is because they gather data specifically from far above the photosphere. I know that any kind of processing of those images, unless there's literally a previously undiscovered miracle of physics involved, can not possibly show features under the photosphere. I know that Dr. Neal Hurlburt of LMSAL, the man responsible for acquiring, processing, and analyzing the data from the TRACE solar exploration satellite, agrees with my assessment of running difference images.

I know that you claim to be qualified to understand running difference images, but you haven't shown even the most rudimentary qualifications in a half a decade of blathering on the Internet. I know that you claim to have made running difference images, yet the results of your effort appear to be something quite different, probably forgeries.

You don't understand math at all,

You do realize I'll bury you in court for this sort of trash, right?


I realize you talk the talk, but in over five years of watching you run our mouth on various Internet forums I've never once seen you back up your talk with any action. You can't even be bothered to actually support your claims about your crackpot notions of the Sun's surface.

And as I said before, if you want to sue me for saying you don't understand math, you'd have to show the court that you do. If you want to sue me for saying your bogus "running difference" images are fraudulent, you'd have to show the court that you actually know what you're talking about there, too. And we both know that's not going to happen.

Also, if you really want to bury me in court, go find the quotes on another forum where I flat out called you mentally ill. I haven't said that directly on this forum, but if you would like to directly solicit my opinion on why you see things that aren't really there, I'd be happy to provide it. If you're going to sue me, make it good.

much less what is involved in producing running difference output.

The only problem in your rant here of course is that I accepted your '"Explanation" of the technique long ago, so we aren't actually arguing over the technique, just the fact you avoid the solar physics entirely.


Accept it or not, you do not understand the results of the technique, which obviously leads to the conclusion that you don't actually understand the technique itself. And as for solar physics, it seems you're at odds with, well, every last professional researcher, educator, and scientist working in any related field anywhere on the face of this planet. I don't avoid solar physics. I just don't buy into your wacky ideas which clearly are, by definition, delusions.

Therefore I'm qualified to say what the running difference graphs show and don't show. You aren't.
Until you address the physics of what's happening in the image, frame by frame, pixel by pixel, all you've done is address the math and ignored the physics entirely. That's typical of you guys.


I don't care to address anything about the images that isn't really there. Why should I? Whose face is that in those pictures of that face on Mars? It's not really a face, you say? Duh. The stuff you're seeing in those satellite images isn't really solid surface features either. Maybe it pisses you off because I'm not letting you jump all over the place, dodging and weaving to avoid particular issues. I choose to start right form the beginning and stay focused.

You post a couple of running difference graphs at the very top of your web site. You can't even explain those. Why should anyone go any further with you than that first, top of the page crap you lay out there as "evidence" of your crackpot conjecture? You convince us that you do have the expertise to properly analyze those images, you show us that you actually do understand running difference images, you explain how data gathered thousands of kilometers above the photosphere can be processed into something that shows surface features below the photosphere, and then I'll be happy to move on. In five years you haven't even been able to explain what's on the top 3 inches of your very own web site.

Your qualifications have been challenged, and you have refused to offer any support for your claim that you are qualified.
I can demonstrate your ignorance on qualification right here, right now, just by noting that you're bitching about a software program, not a technique and technically speaking it doesn't matter which software one uses to create a basic RD image. That Photoshop rant was your own worst enemy.


What exact series of PhotoShop filters did you apply to which specific original image to get those fake running difference images you fraudulently post on your web site? We could actually determine that you're being honest here, but for some odd (actually quite apparent) reason, you're balking. If you weren't trying to hide something, you'd come clean.

By the way, be specific. What did I manipulate in any of those images that constitutes "fraud"?


The fraud comes in the fact that you're trying to pass something off as something it's not. You could, you know, prove me wrong by explaining the exact process you used to create those bogus images. But you won't because you know as well as I that they're fakes. :D

Oh, and in over five years, after asking this questions probably more than fifty times, you still ignore it. Why is that, Michael? Care to demonstrate your ignorance one more time?...

What method is involved in taking images of data from thousands of kilometers above the photosphere, and processing them in some way that shows surface features below the photosphere?
 
I know that you claim to have made running difference images, yet the results of your effort appear to be something quite different, probably forgeries.

Exactly how does one "forge" a running difference image?
 
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And as I said before, if you want to sue me for saying you don't understand math, you'd have to show the court that you do. If you want to sue me for saying your bogus "running difference" images are fraudulent, you'd have to show the court that you actually know what you're talking about there, too. And we both know that's not going to happen.

If you're so sure, where's the email?
 
Solar physics?

Ya, that part where you take a known solar process and apply it to an actual RD image to "explain" the image. Let's blow out the BS shall we?

I know that a solid surface on the Sun has been shown not to exist by the science of helioseismology,

Actually it is Kosovichev's work that I tend to cite and it does support a stratification subsurface at very shallow depths. Helioseismology is actually dependent upon a "resonance cavity" and wouldn't work at all without it. That tsunami video comes straight from Kosovichev's work.

has been shown not to exist by the science of gravity/general relativity,

Pure handwave.

and has been shown to be impossible by the science of thermodynamics.

More handwaving. If that were true your photosphere would burn to a crisp too.

Satellite images in general? I know that the reason the 171Å and 195Å filters are used to obtain the images is because they gather data specifically from far above the photosphere.

That's simply wrong. It gathers images of coronal loops, both above and below the photosphere.

All of your beliefs are based upon false assumptions starting with the location of the bases of the loops seen in 171A, 195A etc. They do *NOT* originate above the photosphere. That LMSAL image from the video demonstrates that the loops originate under the photosphere, as does the Trace/Yohkoh composite image.
15%20April%202001%20WL.gif

mossyohkoh.jpg


Both of these images demonstrate that the bases of the coronal loops originate far below the surface of the photosphere and *occasionally* rise up and through the photosphere where they become visible in x-ray.
 
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Exactly how does one "forge" a running difference image?


You would know that better than I. That's why I asked you to describe the particular process you used to make the fakes you post on your web site.

Your claimed qualification to understand running difference images has been challenged. Explain exactly how you make a running difference image. Make one and explain the process. Here, use THIS VIDEO.

I'll make one, too.

Let me know when you're done.
 
You would know that better than I. That's why I asked you to describe the particular process you used to make the fakes you post on your web site.

My what big slanderous talk for a guy hiding behind an anonymous handle and at least 5K of legal hassle to get your real name. Send me an email hotshot.
 
Ya, that part where you take a known solar process and apply it to an actual RD image to "explain" the image. Let's blow out the BS shall we?


Sure, let's. Let me know when you've created that running difference video from THIS VIDEO. Then we can discuss it thoroughly.

Actually it is Kosovichev's work that I tend to cite and it does support a stratification subsurface at very shallow depths. Helioseismology is actually dependent upon a "resonance cavity" and wouldn't work at all without it. That tsunami video comes straight from Kosovichev's work.


Kosovichev's research clearly shows mass moving at over 1200 meters per second up, down, and laterally right through your mythical surface. It's not solid.

That's simply wrong. It gathers images of coronal loops, both above and below the photosphere.


No. It does not. We know where the data comes from. There are fairly simple methods for our understanding of this. It's been explained to you many, many times. The fact that you still don't understand it only tells me that you are incapable of understanding it.

All of your beliefs are based upon false assumptions starting with the location of the bases of the loops seen in 171A, 195A etc. They do *NOT* originate above the photosphere. That LMSAL image from the video demonstrates that the loops originate under the photosphere, as does the Trace/Yohkoh composite image.


You are wrong. I'm not starting from an assumption and making an effort to support it. That's how you behave. I understand the science. I know from the science that you misunderstand the material you're using as a reference.

Both of these images demonstrate that the bases of the coronal loops originate far below the surface of the photosphere and *occasionally* rise up and through the photosphere where they become visible in x-ray.


Yet in all these years you have never been able to explain your method of analyzing those images in a quantitative, objective way such that other people could apply your method of analysis and come to the same conclusion as you. Until you can do that, you're not applying science. You're playing a 9 year old kid's game of what-do-you-see-in-the-clouds.

Oh, and don't forget to let me know when you've created that running difference video from THIS VIDEO. I'm sure you're interested in having that discussion about your results.
 
Is there any particular reason you selected such a pitifully damaged sequence of solar images to work with? Let me guess, you have an ulterior motive perhaps?
 
My what big slanderous talk for a guy hiding behind an anonymous handle and at least 5K of legal hassle to get your real name. Send me an email hotshot.


Ooooh. Scary. You do know that you can have your attorney subpoena the JREF to get my contact information. I imagine if the JREF feels you actually have some sort of legal claim, they might not even need a subpoena. They might just give it to you. Maybe you ought to ask your lawyer to contact them.

Oh, and you'll need to demonstrate two things to win a slander case. First, you'd have to show that what I've said has caused you some sort of damage. And we all know that my opinion of your crackpot claims is pretty much already the consensus view among all the professional physicists on Earth. You've already done more damage than I could possibly do if I made a concerted effort. And two, you'd have to demonstrate that what I've said isn't true. Get it, Michael? You'd have to demonstrate that what I've said isn't true! :p

Let me know when you've created that running difference video from THIS VIDEO. Then we can discuss running difference images.
 
Ooooh. Scary. You do know that you can have your attorney subpoena the JREF to get my contact information. I imagine if the JREF feels you actually have some sort of legal claim, they might not even need a subpoena. They might just give it to you. Maybe you ought to ask your lawyer to contact them.

Why should I have to do that? If you're so sure you're safe, where's my email? Come on, what do you have to lose?
 
What is a running difference movie?

A movie that shows differences from frame to frame usually in a sequence.

Why use a running difference movie?

The ideas was to highlight changes so that automatic flare detection algorithms had an easier time detecting flares.

How are they made?

A previous frame is subtracted from the current one.

Here is a description of what is done along with a image that actually shows the result from 2 images.

Coronal transients and metric type II radio bursts
"The LASCO C2 telescope recorded these images just before (left) and during (center) the CME eruption.
The right panel displays a running difference image obtained by subtraction of two successive white-light images.
http://www.aanda.org/articles/aa/full/2004/01/aah4598/img20.gif

http://www.aanda.org/index.php?opti...es/aa/full/2004/01/aah4598/aah4598.right.html

Here is a frame by frame comparison of a before and after running difference movie, that I put together. There are six frames that are taken from here
Box net
http://www.box.net/shared/hrv4hixy9b
http://www.box.net/shared/ujxuo2y974
http://www.box.net/shared/n46vmf6exl
http://www.box.net/shared/66y8aj8211
http://www.box.net/shared/pklidsqepr
http://www.box.net/shared/7qcrqpq7oq

A running difference movie is intended to clearly show changes in light at a certain wavelength from frame to frame.
This is processed from a real movie showing real features taken by TRACE. The passbands that TRACE uses for running differences are here.
1600-1700A
Difference image chart.
http://trace.lmsal.com/Project/Instrument/inspass.htm#uv


Here is the software that looks for events.
"The Solar Eruptive Event Detection System (SEEDS) is a software package under development to automatically detect,
characterize and classify transient/eruptive solar events, including CMEs, coronal dimmings, and flares, using image processing, machine learning and data mining technique.

The advantage of this algorithm is that detections are made directly on running-difference images and many parameters are generated that can be used to classify CME events.
http://helio.gmu.edu/seeds/about.php


"To emphasise the time-variable aspect of the behaviour of the region, we create a running-difference image of the average time series for each position. From each frame we subtracted the frame taken 90 seconds earlier. In order to obtain a uniform normalisation, we added all the unique datacounts along two consecutive crosssections and divided by the number of counts."
http://www-solar.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/~ineke/PUBLICATIONS/idm_osc1.pdf


Description
This clip is a so-called ‘running-difference’ movie version of the video obtained by SOHO’s EIT telescope on 6 and 7 January 2008: the differences between single frames were highlighted in order to see more easily the changes on the Sun’s surface observed by SOHO.

The movie shows the two ‘EIT waves’, a kind of solar storm that blasts out from an active region across a portion of the Sun’s surface, generated by the first sunspot of the new solar cycle.
http://www.esa.int/esa-mmg/mmg.pl?b=b&type=V&topic=Sun&single=y&size=b&start=7


So the movie that is in question was a movie that was then processed in the preceding manner. It shows the features that you see that are in dispute.
The flares are lighting structures that stand above the surface and last on time scales longer than would be expected for a plasma.

Discharges originate from these structures because they are the high point, just like in cathode thermionic emission observations.

Hopefully this will clear up any misconceptions.
 
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Is there any particular reason you selected such a pitifully damaged sequence of solar images to work with? Let me guess, you have an ulterior motive perhaps?


My motive? Sure. I thought I'd give you an opportunity to demonstrate that you have the qualifications you claim to have. I know you don't, but I thought it wold be educational as well as entertaining for some of these other fine folks to see the way you squirm and wriggle when someone asks you to put up or shut up. You wussed out.

Maybe you'd rather use the 1280 x 720 version of that same video? Here's the link. Or here's a brand new 171Å video from SOHO. It's got frames in it right up through today.

Or you could just refuse altogether and prove to all these good people that you really aren't qualified to understand running difference videos. That might be the best choice for you at this point. :p
 
Hopefully this will clear up any misconceptions.


Except that it doesn't explain how the data used to create the original images, you know, data that came from thousands of kilometers above the photosphere, can be processed in such a way that the results show surface features thousands of kilometers below. So nope. Not evidence of a solid surface.
 
Why should I have to do that? If you're so sure you're safe, where's my email? Come on, what do you have to lose?


Okay, I was pretty sure that it wasn't important enough to you to actually make the least bit of effort to do anything about it. But how about before you start getting reported for off topic trolling, we leave it at this: Have your lawyer draw up the papers, make them into a PDF, and you send me a PM with a link. I'll be more than happy to provide your lawyer with all the necessary information.
 
Another question for the "Iron Sun" folks:

How did it form?

You see, the existing model explains how starts are formed, how they generate their heat and light, and what happens when they die.
Even better, the existing model aligns extremely well with observations, and makes testable predictions (so far, none have failed).

So, what does your model offer, besides an alternate explanation for something the rest of us put down to a few individuals overactive pareidolia?

How did this "Iron Sphere" form?
 
It's a crust made of ordinary elements from the periodic table. It's not homogeneous.

Then it should behave like “ordinary elements from the periodic table” even when “It's not homogeneous”.


No, I would assume the core is composed of pressurized plasma.

So what temperature would you assume that “pressurized plasma” to be (keeping in mind the relations of temperature, pressure and volume).


The outer layers are thin, hot and they are traversed by charged particles flowing *AWAY FROM* the sun. The heat is going to be picked up and carried away by the charged particles flowing from the sun.

Why would “charged particles flowing *AWAY FROM* the sun” pick up heat from the “layers” they are transversing? If they already have enough kinetic energy to leave some given layer then they would transfer some of that energy to any particles they encounter in the subsequent layer. If the particles in that subsequent layer had more kinetic energy then your outgoing particle, and the rest of the particles in that layer, then some of those particles of that layer would be “flowing *AWAY FROM* the sun”. You do understand the relationship of kinetic energy of the particles in some given layer to their temperature, don’t you? Those same high kinetic energy (outer layer) particles would also transfer some of their energy to your inner layers and “solid surface” raising its kinetic energy and temperature.


Sure, but those photons are going to run into charged particles flowing from the sun.

They will also be flowing from the sun themselves, running into particles that are not charged particles flowing from the sun. Like those particles that comprise us. Step outside and you might find some of them running into you. Likewise they will also run into those other particles in the sun that are not “charged particles flowing from the sun” like those in your inner layers and “solid surface” (particularly if those “layers” or that “solid surface” are opaque).


That's simply not true.

Really, then describe the thermodynamics of your purported ‘solar model’ involving your crust. Your assumptions and simple suggestion that it must be cooler just shows that you are giving no regard to thermodynamics.


By your logic the photosphere cannot be cooler than the chromosphere or the corona, but it is. Evidently the thermodynamics involved in heating the solar atmosphere is lot more complicated than you think. By your logic the corona should heat the photosphere to millions of degrees.

No it is just more complicated then you assume or would like to simply suggest. As I told you before…

Explaining where and how the heat is generated and how it is lost would be a start.

A start you have apparently choosen to simply ignore as well as thermodynamics. Heat generated in the corona will contribute to the temperature of the photosphere. Just as heat transferred from the radiative zone through the convection zone (70% of the solar radius) by, well, convection does.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corona
Coronal heating problem
The coronal heating problem in solar physics relates to the question of why the temperature of the Sun's corona is millions of kelvins higher than that of the surface. The high temperatures require energy to be carried from the solar interior to the corona by non-thermal processes, because the second law of thermodynamics prevents heat from flowing directly from the solar photosphere, or surface, at about 5800 kelvins, to the much hotter corona at about 1 to 3 MK (parts of the corona can even reach 10 MK).

That is that basis of the “coronal heating problem” that it can not be due to the solar surface losing heat to the corona. Your solution to that problem seems to simply be you ignoring thermodynamics and claiming that your surface is cooled by your hotter “outer layers”. Again you are simply suggesting that you just want Maxwell’s demon to do your cooling for you.
 
Well, keep in mind that solid metals would have an electrostatic attraction, particularly in an electrically active environment.


Well keep in mind that “an electrically active environment” is not, well, static. Hence any “attraction” you might envision from such “an electrically active environment” could not be, well, “electrostatic”.
 
Photosphere Temperature Profile & Sunspots

As to the photosphere
You simply *assume* it heats up below the photosphere.
Absolute rubbish. Nobody "assumes" any such thing.
Limb observations of the sun make it possible to retrieve the temperature structure of the photosphere as a function of depth, in much the same way as limb observations of Earth's atmosphere by satellites allows us to retrieve temperature profiles for the Earth's atmosphere (see, e.g., Solar Astrophysics by Peter Foukal, Wiley-VCh 2004, chapter 5: "The photosphere"; The Observation and Analysis of Stellar Photospheres by David Gray, Cambridge University Press 2005, 3rd edition). The temperature at the lowest level we can determine is 9400 Kelvins. We don't see much of that on Earth, because of the opacity of the overlying layers.
And as for sunspots ...
Most of the studies of sunspots reveal they have *COOLER* plasma in them. How is that possible if the temperature under the photosphere 'heats up'? Where does that lower temperature plasma come from if not from under the photosphere?
Pay attention.
But the situation for sunspots is much different. The density of material inside a sunspot is not significantly different from the density outside the sunspot. But the sunspot remains relatively cool because the surrounding magnetic field inhibits convective energy transport into the sunspot. But this magnetic field does not interfere with radiative heat transport at all. That's why sunspots can't get cooler than about 3200 Kelvins. And note that your 3180 K is still 46 K in excess of the boiling point of iron, so this does not help your cause if your cause is a solid & rigid shell.
Helioseismology is well known to validate the standard model of the sun, which requires the temperature to continue increasing below the photosphere.
 
I am doing to work. It starts by hashing out your hypothesis and seeing what observations that it matches with the LOWEST number of adjustable parameters.
You might me surprised that Occam's razor isn't automatically the BEST indicator of probable correctness of a proposition.
Amateur mistake. (Mozina makes that mistake frequently, and has never even learned how it is spelled:rolleyes:).

The flares, the iron, the photosphere, why the corona is hotter, the structure of the sun, the reason for acoustic observations. All lab observations. All first principles.
Right off the bat, you have no idea what First Principles even means; you should really learn what terms applying to Science mean before you make yourself appear foolish by using them incorrectly.
I read the article.
Perhaps you did. Did you REALLY understand it?
Did you get the point that I made about it?
The fact that your only response was "I read the article" tells me you did not do more than speed-read my comments with absolutely zero comprehension of what I was trying to help you understand.

Did you read the two analyses of the "shell" strength calculations presented by dasmiller and Ziggurat? Did you understand what they demonstrated?
Here is an excerpt of each, excerpted by Jack by the hedge.

Originally Posted by dasmiller :
Plugging in some routine values, the compressive load on the shell is ~38,000 times the compressive yield strength for a decent steel at room temperature. Now, there are some improvements possible; if it was a huge single crystal, you might be able to triple the compressive strength. And if the temperature is above the Austenite conversion temp, you'll pick up a little more. So maybe the an idealized shell would have 0.0001 (0.01%) of the needed compressive strength.
Originally Posted by Ziggurat
...it isn't the force itself which limits us, but the pressure. And the pressure is P = F/A = F/Lz. That gives us
P = gpR/8

Now let's plug in some numbers:
g = 274.0 m/s2
p = 7.874 g/cm3 = 7874 kg/m3
R = 6.96x108 m

P = 1.87x1014 Pascals = 1.87x105 GPa
Which is about 10,000 times the pressure needed to form diamond. Iron, and basically any other material, will indeed flow under that kind of non-isotropic pressure.
You should read their entire posts until you follow the reasoning.

----------------------------

Now to MM's posts to me:
How? How does plasma that is thinner than air at sea level act as a "resonant cavity"? Nice trick from ultra thin plasma.
Sound travels even in rarefied gasses. Does that give you a problem?
ANY medium that carries sound and has a boundary can resonate. Does that give you a problem?
Any bounded transmissive medium can have resonances. Does that give you a problem?
So what IS your problem?

[I trust that if I am in error, it will be pointed out.]:)

Labs seem to duplicate the conditions necessary to heat plasma to millions of degrees. It requires "electricity".
To some extent, perhaps.

I seriously doubt that ALL the relevant conditions can be duplicated, though.

The "electricity" part is purely an artifact of your fevered imaginings, however.

How much of Lambda-CDM theory is composed of ordinary matter and energy that show up here on Earth? Don't even get me started......
I often wish no one had...:rolleyes:

It's a crust made of ordinary elements from the periodic table. It's not homogeneous.
The calculations others have presented have proven that impossible.

No, I would assume the core is composed of pressurized plasma.
Can you specify a reasonable density for this "pressurized plasma" sufficient to support this (certainly molten) shell?

The outer layers are thin, hot and they are traversed by charged particles flowing *AWAY FROM* the sun. The heat is going to be picked up and carried away by the charged particles flowing from the sun.
Thermodynamics, Michael, thermodynamics. Where do you expect the Maxwell's Demon required to make this happen comes from?

Sure, but those photons are going to run into charged particles flowing from the sun.
So, what's your point?

Cheers,

Dave
 
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