Science is not a religion, but some scientists ARE religous about their science

The problem is that Alfven published lots of circuit oriented papers *a long time ago* PS. It's only since Alfven's death that "pseudoscience" really seems to have "caught on" in astronomy, and PC theory came to be treated as the evil stepchild. Before Alfven's death, there were indeed a whole host of published papers oriented toward the circuit orientation of MHD theory. Since his death however the whole universe has gone "magnetic" and only what Alfven referred to as the "field' orientation ever get's published, and it typically involves something that Alfven rejected as pure pseudoscience.

The above is only a problem if:
a) Alfven was right.
and
b) What you say is true.

Now, I don't have the same devotion as you to follow the word of Alfven as an unimpeachable truth. Nor do I have faith that your characterisation of the mainstream is even remotely accurate, given your repeated failures in other areas of physics. So I, personally, don't see what the fuss is all about.
 
The only "extraordinary" insight I've claimed to have is insight into the fact that you've never actually shown a cause/effect link between anything in that formula and "dark energy" or "inflation" or exotic brands of invisible matter. You might as well point at those same formulas and claim magic is responsible for lambda, because you have just as much evidence that "magic energy did it" as 'dark energy did it". Never once did you bother to demonstrate any empirical link between the acceleration of physical objects and "dark (evil or otherwise) energy".


Your ignorance does not negate the legitimate science that you hate.
 
The only "extraordinary" insight I've claimed to have is insight into the fact that you've never actually shown a cause/effect link between anything in that formula and "dark energy" or "inflation" or exotic brands of invisible matter. You might as well point at those same formulas and claim magic is responsible for lambda, because you have just as much evidence that "magic energy did it" as 'dark energy did it". Never once did you bother to demonstrate any empirical link between the acceleration of physical objects and "dark (evil or otherwise) energy".

I'll repeat:
Michael please answer me this: what effect do you believe the semantics of the English language has on the laws of physics?
If the answer is none please explain why you keep spouting all this horse dung. If the answer is not none, please give a quantitative description of the relationship between the laws of physics and semantics of the English language.
 
I did give the impression that the cause is a physical cause like the CC example. As you state, the cause (but still by definition :)) could be a problem of GR on large scales.

I was thinking about this again and it makes no sense. Why do you folks claim that 70+ percent of the universe is composed of "dark energy" if it's potentially just a problem with GR (on whatever scale)?
 
I was thinking about this again and it makes no sense. Why do you folks claim that 70+ percent of the universe is composed of "dark energy" if it's potentially just a problem with GR (on whatever scale)?

Because GR is extremely well tested (both range and precision of tests). We'd have expected any such problems to have shown up already.
 
Because GR is extremely well tested (both range and precision of tests). We'd have expected any such problems to have shown up already.

Well, then RC was right the first time and edd's wrong then, correct? You're claiming "dark (whatever) energy" is in fact the "cause" of that acceleration, no?
 
I was thinking about this again and it makes no sense. Why do you folks claim that 70+ percent of the universe is composed of "dark energy" if it's potentially just a problem with GR (on whatever scale)?


So okay, you don't understand contemporary astrophysics. Everyone else already knew that. Why didn't you just admit that years ago instead of persisting with the lies, arguments from incredulity and ignorance, and all the useless evangelizing all over the Internet?
 
Ya, and it could be *anything* in the final analysis. It could be absolutely anything that prevents you from actually "explaining" that acceleration, including a blind ignorance related to your irrational hatred and fear of all things electrical in space. That's the problem RC. You folks really don't know the cause.
Ya, and it could be *anything* in the final analysis is what I said.
That *anything* is the cause. Knowledgeable people call that *anything* , dark energy.
We know its properties (if we keep to accepted theories)
The nature of this dark energy is a matter of speculation. It is known to be very homogeneous, not very dense and is not known to interact through any of the fundamental forces other than gravity. Since it is not very dense — roughly 10^−29 grams per cubic centimeter — it is hard to imagine experiments to detect it in the laboratory. Dark energy can only have such a profound impact on the universe, making up 74% of universal density, because it uniformly fills otherwise empty space. The two leading models are quintessence and the cosmological constant. Both models include the common characteristic that dark energy must have negative pressure.

That is really dumb, Michael Mozina. I do not have an "irrational hatred or fear of things electrical in space". I *love* things electrical in space!
I do have a rational dislike for ignorant people who have ignore the invalid physics created by obsessing on half of one force.

That's the problem Michael Mozina. You really don't know anything about science. Science does not need to "really" know the cause for anything. Newton did not "really" know the cause of gravity but his theory worked!
GR does not "really" know the cause of gravity but Einstein's theory works!
The theory that replaces GR will not "really" know the cause of gravity but it will work!
This is an demonstration of your confusion between religion and science.
  • Religion always knows the cause and never lets the evidence change the cause.
  • Science never really knows the cause, selects the current cause according the current empirical evidence and changes the cause whenever the empirical evidence changes.
 
Dark Energy Defined

How do you even know that it's "dark" energy in the first place if it could be "anything"?
Because "dark energy" is by definition the "anything" which is responsible for the accelerated expansion of the universe. If it is a problem with GR, then "dark energy" is that problem with GR. If it is electromagnetism, then "dark energy" is that electromagnetism. If it is a repulsive term in Einstein's equations, then "dark energy" is that repulsive term. How can you be so dense as to fail to understand such a simple aspect of ordinary English?
 
It's sad, just sad. All you folks know is math and you're completely ignorant when it comes to actual "physics" and what is physically real and physically possible. In fact you can't even tell "empirical physics" from a "religion" that requires absolute faith in the "unseen"(in the lab).
You're wrong about that highlighted stuff. Very wrong.

What's sad is that true believers, knowing nothing about math or (in consequence) modern physics, continue to emulate Saint Alfvén by using explicitly religious language to ridicule science they do not understand.
 
How can you be so dense as to fail to understand such a simple aspect of ordinary English?


Support for the possibility that Michael has never been able to sway anyone to become a member of his religion because of deficient communication skills.
 
Because "dark energy" is by definition the "anything" which is responsible for the accelerated expansion of the universe.

So by definition your use of the term "dark energy" utterly erroneous and stupid because it could be "anything", including:

If it is a problem with GR, then "dark energy" is that problem with GR.

It could simply be a problem with our understanding of gravity that has nothing to do with excess energy, in which case your 70+ percent claim about the makeup of the universe being "dark energy" is completely and utterly bogus. No dark energy would be involved, just 'dark ignorance" of gravity in general.

If it is electromagnetism, then "dark energy" is that electromagnetism.

In that case it wasn't actually "dark" energy and therefore that term was both misleading and pointless in the first place.

If it is a repulsive term in Einstein's equations, then "dark energy" is that repulsive term.

What pray tell (physically, as in actual physics) is a "repulsive term"?

How can you be so dense as to fail to understand such a simple aspect of ordinary English?

Use of ordinary English would be something like "unknown acceleration, or "unexplained acceleration", not "dark energy'. You created a whole religion out of your own ignorance. Now 70+ percent of the universe is "dark energy" and most of the rest is "dark matter". I guess you guys just don't like to admit that the term "I don't know" is a valid scientific answer. You dreamed up mythical brand of energy that may or may not even exist. You did the same thing with exotic forms of mass that you now call "dark matter". The whole "dark" concept actually relates to your own human ignorance, not any actual property of the matter/energy itself.
 
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It's sad, just sad. All you folks know is math and you're completely ignorant when it comes to actual "physics" and what is physically real and physically possible. In fact you can't even tell "empirical physics" from a "religion" that requires absolute faith in the "unseen"(in the lab).

You're wrong about that highlighted stuff. Very wrong.


Support for the notion that Michael uses lies as part of his evangelizing.
 
You're wrong about that highlighted stuff. Very wrong.

Nope. Alfven was right, you folks peddle psuedoscience. You can't even describe the unique physical difference between "magnetic reconnection" and simple induction and/or ordinary particle collisions. The whole thing comes right back to your irrational fixation on math to the utter exclusion of empirical physics. Once things to move to the subatomic realm, you folks are completely and totally lost.

What's sad is that true believers, knowing nothing about math or (in consequence) modern physics, continue to emulate Saint Alfvén by using explicitly religious language to ridicule science they do not understand.

Ol' St. Alfven had you guys pegged all along. Your whole creation oriented belief system is predicted upon blind faith in mathematical mythologies that have absolutely no physical effect on the empirical physical world we live in. You look at solar "discharge" process and you claim "magnetic reconnection" did it. You look at a acceleration process that is undoubtedly related to the only macroscopic force of nature that is 39 OOM more powerful than gravity and yet you call it "dark energy". The whole belief system is based entirely (well 96 percent) on faith in the unseen and pure pseudoscience. What you can't actually explain with empirical physics you simply "make up".
 
How do you even know that it's "dark" energy in the first place if it could be "anything"?
Because scientists have defined the "anything" that causes the effects as dark energy. By definition dark energy is the cause.
I would think that would be obvious to anyone but then you are the person who has the belief that stars do not exist (Does Michael Mozina believe that stars do not exist?) :jaw-dropp!

I stated that quite clearly in this post:
Dark energy is the term for whatever
By definition dark energy is the cause.
causes the rate of expansion of the universe to accelerate as determined by the empirical evidence. By definition dark energy is the cause. See the giant gap in your understanding, Michael Mozina?
One more time:
By definition dark energy is the cause.
You really should update your reading comphrehension skills.

Tim Thompson has the best reply:
Because "dark energy" is by definition the "anything" which is responsible for the accelerated expansion of the universe. If it is a problem with GR, then "dark energy" is that problem with GR. If it is electromagnetism, then "dark energy" is that electromagnetism. If it is a repulsive term in Einstein's equations, then "dark energy" is that repulsive term. How can you be so dense as to fail to understand such a simple aspect of ordinary English?

However your random quoting tic may not be the cause of the quotes around "dark" so:
Astronomers are really, really good at detecting things that emot light. Dark energy is called dark because there is no evidence of it emitting light. Something that does not emit light can be called ... dark :eye-poppi !
 
Support for the notion that Michael uses lies as part of his evangelizing.

When you get your invisible buddies to actually do something in a real science experiment, with actual control mechanisms, then you can call me a liar. Until then you are only lying to yourself.
 
When you get your invisible buddies to actually do something in a real science experiment, with actual control mechanisms, then you can call me a liar. Until then you are only lying to yourself.

But you have repeatedly demonstrated you have no idea what a control mechanism is.
 
But you have repeatedly demonstrated you have no idea what a control mechanism is.

The fact you won't even cop to the actual empirical weaknesses of your pet theory says volumes IMO. Something as simple as a dimmer switch or an on/off switch would work as a control mechanism depending on the energy in question. It's extremely easy to measure and control EM energy.

Where do I get a joule of "dark energy"? How do I even measure dark energy vs some other form of acceleration? How would I go about "controlling" dark energy in an actual "experiment" to see if can cause acceleration as you claim?
 
So by definition your use of the term "dark energy" utterly erroneous and stupid because it could be "anything", including:...
You still do not get it.
The definition of dark energy is that it is the cause of the observed effect. That is the correct and intelligent definition.
We have a couple of good theories about what dark energy could be(and some not so good theories, e.g. look up dark fluid). Further empirical evidence will rule out some of these theories. Eventually the evidence will be strong enough so that a theory will be accepted as the best contender.
P.S. My personal opinion is that it will not be any of the current theories!

What pray tell (physically, as in actual physics) is a "repulsive term"?
Really simple, Michael Mozina: A replusive term is a term that produces a replusive force such as a physically, as in actual physics, non-zero cosmological constant.

Use of ordinary English would be something like "unknown acceleration, or "unexplained acceleration", not "dark energy'.
You would be right if your ignorance of the science had not blinded you to the fact that we do know things about the cause of this "unknown acceleration":
  • It is very homogeneous.
  • It is not very dense (roughly 10^−29 grams).
  • It does not emit light: dark.
  • The best theories to explain it treat it as an energy.
So a proper decription would be homogeneous, transparent, dark energy. But people are lazy so they just use dark energy.

You created a whole religion out of your own ignorance.
You created your personal religion out of your own ignorance.

Now 70+ percent of the universe is "dark energy" and most of the rest is "dark matter". I guess you guys just don't like to admit that the term "I don't know" is a valid scientific answer. You dreamed up mythical brand of energy that may or may not even exist. You did the same thing with exotic forms of mass that you now call "dark matter". The whole "dark" concept actually relates to your own human ignorance, not any actual property of the matter/energy itself.
Your ignorance is still deep and seems to be increasing :eye-poppi!

The fact is that dark energy and dark matter are scientists saying "we do not know fully but this is what we do know".

As stated above dark energy is called dark energy because we know things about it (it is dark and acts like energy).
Dark matter is called dark matter because it is dark and acts like matter. The evidence is that dark matter is made of standard particles like non-baryonic matter. Examples of the standard non-baryonic particles are neutrinos and electrons. The usual particles proposed for dark matter come from extensions of the Standard Model, i.e. not that standard but definitely not exotic, e.g. have negative mass.
 
The fact you won't even cop to the actual empirical weaknesses of your pet theory says volumes IMO.
You have also repeatedly demonstrated you have no idea what empirical means.

Something as simple as a dimmer switch or an on/off switch would work as a control mechanism depending on the energy in question. It's extremely easy to measure and control EM energy.
For what?
Where do I get a joule of "dark energy"?
Why do you want one?

How do I even measure dark energy vs some other form of acceleration?
Errm, by accounting for the other forms of acceleration quantitatively. But since you have no idea what quantitatively means you might struggle with that one too.

How would I go about "controlling" dark energy in an actual "experiment" to see if can cause acceleration as you claim?
Errm you don't. Just like you don't control the Sun in measurements of the Sun.
 
Where do I get a joule of "dark energy"? How do I even measure dark energy vs some other form of acceleration? How would I go about "controlling" dark energy in an actual "experiment" to see if can cause acceleration as you claim?
Lets see MM:
[sarcasm]
Where do I get a gram of "star"? How do I even measure star stuff vs some other form of stuff? How would I go about "controlling" stars in an actual "experiment" to see if can cause light as you claim?
[/sarcasm]:rolleyes:

Does Michael Mozina believe that stars do not exist?
The answer according to all of the posts showing his continued ignorance of the meaning of the word empirical indicates that he does not!
This has gone beyond jaw dropping to
:dl:
 
When you get your invisible buddies to actually do something in a real science experiment, with actual control mechanisms, then you can call me a liar. Until then you are only lying to yourself.

Well until you justify the statement:
All you folks know is math and you're completely ignorant when it comes to actual "physics" and what is physically real and physically possible.
with actual evidence I think your opinions are likely to be treated with utter contempt on this forum.
As for being ignorant about actual physics, maybe you should try making a physics based argument. Not one from "if I give this theory a stupid name then it will automatically be a stupid theory". Which is... well... stupid. Nobody is going to take your claims about other peoples inability to do physics seriously until you show some ability to even comprehend what a scientific argument is.
 
Lets see MM:
[sarcasm]
Where do I get a gram of "star"? How do I even measure star stuff vs some other form of stuff? How would I go about "controlling" stars in an actual "experiment" to see if can cause light as you claim?
[/sarcasm]:rolleyes:
http://www.uigi.com/hydrogen.html

Oddly enough your sarcasm simply highlights the fact that you can't even buy "dark energy" in any quantity, whereas procuring hydrogen (or any other element found inside of a star) is relatively simple.
 
http://www.uigi.com/hydrogen.html

Oddly enough your sarcasm simply highlights the fact that you can't even buy "dark energy" in any quantity, whereas procuring hydrogen (or any other element found inside of a star) is relatively simple.
When was the last time you bought a gravitational field?
What about a top quark?
Anti-proton?
A tauon anti-neutrino perhaps?
 
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When you get your invisible buddies to actually do something in a real science experiment, with actual control mechanisms, then you can call me a liar. Until then you are only lying to yourself.


Dark energy does something in a real science experiment, ongoing and occurring on a Universal scale. Wow. Oh, and you're a liar. You cool with that? :D

The Universe is expanding at an accelerated rate. We know this because we measure it. Measuring is a quantitative thing, Michael, involving actual numbers. You'd have to possess the qualifications to understand math at a level of about a nine year old child to get this. You don't, so don't worry about it. It's above your skill level.

The observation and measurement of this effect, the accelerated expansion, is the empirical evidence for its existence. You'd have to possess the qualifications to communicate at the level of about a twelve year old child to get this. You don't, so don't worry about it. It's above your skill level.

Since empirical evidence shows us that the effect exists, we assume there is a cause. You see, cause and effect? Simple science. You'd have to possess the qualifications to understand science at the level of about an eighth grade child to get this. You don't, so don't worry about it. It's above your skill level.

We call the cause of this measured expansion dark energy. It exists. It is causing a measurable effect. It doesn't emit light. If it did we would be able to observe and measure that, too. Dark energy seems quite an appropriate moniker. So you don't like the name. Tough crap, eh? :p
 
At least it was amusing. :)
Mildly.

I missed your late additions to the list I see but they all seem to show up in actual experiments on Earth.
Yes, my late additions may lead to a little confusion I'll admit. That may be true about experiments on Earth but I still can't buy them in a shop. And I still don't see why all physical phenomena should be manifest on a scale of human conveinience circa 2010. There really is no argument for this.
What about a lump of neutron degenerate matter?
 
What makes you think that stars are made of hydrogen?

No star-sized ball of hydrogen (in fact no star at all) has been tested in a controlled experiment in a lab (your definition of empirical). Thus your answer to Does Michael Mozina believe that stars do not exist? has to be that stars do not exist.

There are observations (not controlled experiments in a lab) that show that the solar wind has protons (ionized hydrogen) in it. There are observations of neutrinos from the Sun that show that there is hydorgen undergong fusion in its core.
But then it is obvious that your logic means that the Sun does not exist since we have never had the Sun in a controlled experiment in a lab.
 
What makes you think that stars are made of hydrogen?

Me? I don't. Even still it's not an "extraordinary' claim to suggest it's made of hydrogen or any other elements that show up on Earth. If however you were claiming that the sun was entirely composed of some exotic form of "dark matter', *THAT* would be an extraordinary claim that required additional support.

No star-sized ball of hydrogen (in fact no star at all) has been tested in a controlled experiment in a lab (your definition of empirical).

No, but so what? I'm not asking you, nor expecting you to recreate large scale objects in a lab. I'm just expecting some kind of empirical cause/effect demonstration of concept when you make some extraordinary claim.

Hydrogen fusion has in fact been "lab tested", or I should say "tested on Earth" so even the claim that hydrogen fusion is the energy source of a sun isn't an extraordinary claim. If however you claimed "God provides the energy of a sun', that *WOULD* be an extraordinary claim that required additional support.
 
Hydrogen fusion has in fact been "lab tested", or I should say "tested on Earth" so even the claim that hydrogen fusion is the energy source of a sun isn't an extraordinary claim. If however you claimed "God provides the energy of a sun', that *WOULD* be an extraordinary claim that required additional support.

But nobody is claiming that. So why bring it up?
 
But nobody is claiming that. So why bring it up?


Because his experience is with unwavering unevidenced faith, and he doesn't understand science or the non-faith based scientific position? Maybe something like those Christians who can't fathom the notion that some people simply don't hold a belief, so they cling to this incorrect position that atheists actually believe in gods but hate them or reject them for some reason.
 
But nobody is claiming that. So why bring it up?

Sure you did. You just called it "dark energy", "inflation' and "dark matter", none of which show up in real experiments on Earth. They are at least as impotent in the lab as any religious deity.
 
Yep. All you creationist have one thing in common, you all have unwavering, unevidenced faith in the unseen (in the lab).


Either something causes the accelerated expansion of the Universe, or nothing causes it. What's your guess, Michael?
 

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