Continuation The Electric Comet Theory Boogaloo (Part 2)

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Brilliant. The first link is to a post by the well known........... sorry anonoymous, Michael Gmirkin a "technology enthusiast with a keen interest in exploring the electrical nature of the universe." And it's over 7 years old, to boot.

The second link is to the Rosetta thread on the thundercrap forum, populated by people as ignorant of science as yourself.

So how does this prove anything? Links to pseudo-scientific nonsense from non-scientists to answer scientific questions?
 
Brilliant. The first link is to a post by the well known........... sorry anonoymous, Michael Gmirkin a "technology enthusiast with a keen interest in exploring the electrical nature of the universe." And it's over 7 years old, to boot.
Yes, indeed.

It's particularly, um, odd because David Talbott's predictions relate specifically to 67P and the Rosetta mission. As were my questions.

But perhaps English is not Haig's native tongue; perhaps he simply does not understand what he reads?

The second link is to the Rosetta thread on the thundercrap forum, populated by people as ignorant of science as yourself.
It's actually worse than that.

As far as I could tell - yes, Haig, I did re-read that thread - none of the posters in that thread provided any DIRECT EVIDENCE (the gold standard David Talbott himself set) of any of his (DT's) predictions (concerning 67P and the Rosetta mission). It's also odd that Haig did not leap at the opportunity to quote from that thread, providing at least one piece of what he considers to be DIRECT EVIDENCE.

That Haig - apparently - feels that this ("thundercrap forum") thread does contain such DIRECT EVIDENCE is itself further evidence (albeit somewhat indirect) that Haig's reading comprehension is rather poor, compared with that of a native speaker of English.

So how does this prove anything? Links to pseudo-scientific nonsense from non-scientists to answer scientific questions?
Well, to be fair to Haig, I think he is on record as saying that he is merely a 'numpty', and that he poor-to-zero understanding of science (and in particular, poor-to-zero understanding of how to do science). Instead - again, if memory serves - he has stated that he sees his 'mission' (my term) as 'merely' to present 'facts and data', and leave the analyses (etc) up to ISF readers*.

However, what does seem, um, odd is that Haig apparently cannot even grasp the 'fact/data' content of David Talbott's DIRECT EVIDENCE. One reason it's odd is that, for readers who may have forgotten, David Talbott is one of (three? four?) living "electrical theorists", and one of (two) authors of "the electric comet hypothesis". Even for a self-declared 'numpty', I find it really strange that Haig seems so ignorant of David Talbott's own work (and - avowedly non-science - stance).

*in another thread, I asked Haig to confirm/correct my understanding of his position; so far, he has not done so.
 
A response to just one part (for now) ...
[...]

He thinks if you can't post it in "your own words" it's not worth reading and even then :rolleyes:
How do you know, Haig, what I think (other than by what I post)?

Do you have psychic magic powers?

I challenge you, Haig, to find posts of mine in which I state that "if you can't post it in "your own words" it's not worth reading and even then"! :mad: And if you cannot find any such DIRECT EVIDENCE, then what is the basis for your claim? Specifically, how is such a claim different from trolling?

Ask away and I may answer when I have time but only in my own way. :)
Question: may one read this as meaning that you have essentially zero interest (even intent) in engaging in dialog? That, in effect, what you do is spam this thread?

This is a genuine question ... if (please confirm) you yourself have said that you do not understand science, and if (please confirm) that you do not intend to enter into meaningful dialog, what relevance does anything you post here - in the Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology section of ISF - have (to threads in this section)?
 
From Rational Wiki;
"Talbott received his B.S. from Portland State University, where he majored in education and political science. He also completed a year of graduate work in Urban Studies." My bold.

Tells you all you need to know, really. Not big on physics, astrophysics or planetary science is he? Why would anybody in their right mind take any notice of him when he pontificates on those subjects? Unless they know even less than he does about those subjects, of course.
 
Working myself through the Rosetta Plasma Consotium magnetometer data, I (well "we" I should say, it is a team effort) find all kinds of interesting stuff:
  • Naturally the singing
  • Expected signatures of mirror modes
  • Very large amplitude waves
  • Shocklets with possible associated waves

What we do not find, however, is signatures of any discharges, which would create e.g. whistler mode waves.

ETA: Some of this will be presented at the IUGG in Prague under RPC-MAG in 67P/CG‘s Wavy Wonderland

Interestingly ALICE just found out some new information about the dissociation of H2O and CO2 Ultraviolet study reveals surprises in comet coma. It is shown that impacts of photo-ionization-created electrons break up water and carbondioxide.
 
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Interestingly ALICE just found out some new information about the dissociation of H2O and CO2 Ultraviolet study reveals surprises in comet coma. It is shown that impacts of photo-ionization-created electrons break up water and carbondioxide.

Indeed. I posted a link to the freely downloadable PDF on the previous page. Will repost it here: http://www.aanda.org/component/artic...-6361/20152592
as it sort of got buried amongst a bit of back and forth about Haig's various delusions.
Of course, my travels to other science websites show that EU is not at all troubled by these findings, as they've known this all along, and have an explanation, as per the post of one lobotomised specimen reproduced here:
"This observation is NOT surprising for some of us! Maybe these Principal Investigators should do some more research into theories which make these predictions, and leave the dated snowball model in the garbage. The hydrogen and oxygen are NOT caused by photodissociation as always postulated. In fact, the water does not become O- and H2 or H+, it's the other way around. Oxygen is stripped from the negatively charged surface to form hydroxyl and water as byproducts in the coma.
There is very little or no surface ice. There is no interior ice. There is no significant sublimation. There are no significant thermal or gravitational stresses.
Please stop with the pseudoscientific hate on plasma cosmology supporters. Even though many are not properly educated on the concepts, the ideas are valid and evidenced directly through FALSIFIABLE predictions."

My bold.

See, they really have all the bases covered! I did, of course, point out that the required protons to create said OH and H2O are about 7 orders of magnitude too few in the solar wind, but hey, that's just maths, and they don't do maths.

http://phys.org/news/2015-06-alice-instrument-ultraviolet-close-up-discovery.html
 
From Rational Wiki;
"Talbott received his B.S. from Portland State University, where he majored in education and political science. He also completed a year of graduate work in Urban Studies." My bold.

Tells you all you need to know, really. Not big on physics, astrophysics or planetary science is he? Why would anybody in their right mind take any notice of him when he pontificates on those subjects? Unless they know even less than he does about those subjects, of course.
I've been re-reading the old "The Electric Comet theory" thread, started by Sol88. In particular, the posts by David Talbott. And I intend to write several posts on this, and the topic of your later post.

It's certainly very clear that the way David Talbott writes, and the points he makes, are different from those of, say, Sol88 or Haig (and even from more sensible EU proponents, such as Michael Gmirkin). And there is much in what he writes that seems well-aligned with the science of Galileo, Newton, Maxwell, and Birkeland (though not, it must be said, Einstein, Heisenberg, Boltzmann). For example (source, source, source):
David Talbott said:
The first thing that is needed is more thorough investigation of the electric comet idea, [...]. Such investigation is indeed underway in discrete corners of the world. [...]

Expanded, explicit attention to the electric comet could add a new world of inspiration to the space sciences. We should be celebrating the potential of the Rosetta Mission to deliver greater knowledge of the electric comet than the previous 10 to 20 years of space exploration. Perhaps even a definitive conclusion: 67P is just a rock!
David Talbott said:
Jean Tate, it appears you've got the entire sequence of good science backwards. Your apparent formula, asking math to race ahead of evidence, could only perpetuate a huge theoretical mistakes. If I give you Don Scott's estimate of the potential of the Sun—"probably in the order of several billion volts" (his words)—you will not have anything to work with to quantify a comet's electrical behavior. Are you aware of why that is so? Meaningful quantification does not arise out of thin air.

In the case of the electric comet, the way to avoid a cart running pell mell ahead of the horse is do what is presently being done: gather systematic observations of comet behavior and open the door of scientific imagination to a possibility too long ignored. Where is the problem in that approach? Is the comet discharging electrically? [...]

Direct observation, directly-measured values, design of experiments (in the case at hand scaleable models of the Sun and of a comet)—all will be certain to follow. [...] Direct evidence is king, and particularly so when a major challenge to a popular "consensus" is at stake. Where is the error in working with evidence first?
David Talbott said:
Yes, we have a good team in place for mapping out a Design of Experiments. The team has reason to suspect that comet surfaces, asteroid surfaces, and surfaces of planets and moons were all subjected to intense electric discharge in an earlier, more unstable phase of planetary history. We've undertaken this mission (presently at a much more rudimentary stage than the SAFIRE project) because it appears that certain features of planets can ONLY be produced by electric discharge. It's a worthy project, inspired by preliminary tests done by plasma scientist Cj Ransom, PhD, EU proponent Wal Thornill, and several others.

But David's admirable words do not seem to be matched by much substance, as the many ISF members who commented on these posts (and others by him) make very clear. For example (source):
tusenfem said:
Unfortunatly, David, there have been lots of missions already, and apparently you are not interested in looking through the data to find actual evidence for your claims. So there is lots of direct evidence but you and yours are unwilling to look at it.

I wonder how you come to the conclusion that to many scientists "the electric comet is becoming obvious". First of all there is no "electric comet model/hypothesis" otherwise your puppets haig and sol would have presented it here. There are some ideas that there is constant "electric discharge machining" of the surface, possibly creating water in the process (but that may also be the interaction of the surface with the solar wind, who knows). If there is EDM taking place there would be evidence in the magnetic and electric field data, because you might know that discharges produce also radiation. In case you mean that space physicists are using plasma physics to describe the interaction of the solar wind with the outgassing cometary nucleus, then you are correct, but we have been doing that at least since 1986 and the Giotto/Vega1/Vega2 flybys of comet Halley.

But your post is basically the "the math for our ideas has not been invented yet so we cannot give you a full description", which of course is bollocks.

Next to that, the charge of stars has been determined, but that does not belong in this thread, therefore we have the electric sun thread. I think the link to the paper (which I cannot find at the moment) is in that thread.

But the best thing in this informationless post of yours is "Where is the error in working with evidence first?" That is exactly what the Rosetta/Giotto/VEGA scientists are doing, looking at the data, finding out what is in there, and then modeling it, taking known processes that occur elsewhere and see if they happen at e.g. the comet, and finding new things, which you can only do if you look at the data first.
So why is there such an apparent disconnect between what David Talbott says "electrical theorists" (and "EU proponents") are doing (or intending to do), and what they actually seem to be doing?

I think the answer is both clear and disturbing (more later).
 
Indeed. I posted a link to the freely downloadable PDF on the previous page. Will repost it here: http://www.aanda.org/component/artic...-6361/20152592
as it sort of got buried amongst a bit of back and forth about Haig's various delusions.
Of course, my travels to other science websites show that EU is not at all troubled by these findings, as they've known this all along, and have an explanation, as per the post of one lobotomised specimen reproduced here:
"This observation is NOT surprising for some of us! Maybe these Principal Investigators should do some more research into theories which make these predictions, and leave the dated snowball model in the garbage. The hydrogen and oxygen are NOT caused by photodissociation as always postulated. In fact, the water does not become O- and H2 or H+, it's the other way around. Oxygen is stripped from the negatively charged surface to form hydroxyl and water as byproducts in the coma.
There is very little or no surface ice. There is no interior ice. There is no significant sublimation. There are no significant thermal or gravitational stresses.
Please stop with the pseudoscientific hate on plasma cosmology supporters. Even though many are not properly educated on the concepts, the ideas are valid and evidenced directly through FALSIFIABLE predictions."

My bold.

See, they really have all the bases covered! I did, of course, point out that the required protons to create said OH and H2O are about 7 orders of magnitude too few in the solar wind, but hey, that's just maths, and they don't do maths.

http://phys.org/news/2015-06-alice-instrument-ultraviolet-close-up-discovery.html
rossim22's comments do, as you say, show considerable ignorance (Tom Bridgman's recent blog post, Electric Comets: More Failures of the Electric Comet Model, covers similar ignorance, and more).

However, I think the greater ignorance in rossim22's comment is not the apparent inability to do any calculations, but rather here: "Maybe these Principal Investigators should do some more research into theories which make these predictions, and leave the dated snowball model in the garbage. [...] Please stop with the pseudoscientific hate on plasma cosmology supporters. Even though many are not properly educated on the concepts, the ideas are valid and evidenced directly through FALSIFIABLE predictions"

rossim22 seem to think that there are "plasma cosmology" theories (my bold) which are directly relevant to (one aspect) of 67P's observed behavior, theories which make "FALSIFIABLE predictions". Yet David Talbott - who presumable is far more familiar with this field than rossim22, you, me, ... - is quite clear that there are, in fact (as Haig will readily attest), no such theories. In particular, the only thing there is an 'electric comet hypothesis' (ech).

So perhaps a good question to ask rossim22 is something like "can you please point to a primary source of any "plasma cosmology theory" with makes "FALSIFIABLE predictions" concerning "O- and H2 or H+"?" Of course, it's almost certain that he cannot ... because no such primary source exists.

What's interesting - and very revealing - is that when an EU/ES/EC proponent/supporter actually answers direct questions about such primary sources (not just about ions, dissociation, etc, but about the whole ech), it's clear they have no knowledge of such sources (though many do not even understand what 'primary source' even means). Instead, what you get is pointers to videos, to forum threads (not posts), to blogs (not posts); in short a Gish Gallop diversion.

Why is this? Why does the only primary ech source contain nothing on almost all David Talbott's 67P predictions?

I have some ideas on why ... (later).
 
Thanks for re-thinking your post JT :eek:

Hmm, let's see now ...

What is the essential core of my post (other than being polite to you)?

It's some questions.

And what are those questions, the ones of direct relevance to this thread?

It's nice to be nice JT.
I like how you think out-loud :)


Does a strong, quantitative inconsistency - between facts/data and 'theory' - in any one part of this [EC-ES-EU] chain of "requires" knock out the others?

Yes, that is what requires means imo.
Does it mean they have ALL the "quantitative" details worked out then No.


In particular, if "the Electric Sun theory" is inconsistent with some central facts/data, does that mean that 'the Electric Comet' idea (or 'electric comet hypothesis', as David Talbott puts it) is dead?

Well can we have the same wiggle room as mainstream ? :D

Remember when the maths for a "gravity only" universe didn't add up mainstream invented the dark forces to keep their careers funding beliefs model alive :p

The Safire Project is making good progress on the quantitative side of the hypothesis for an electrical sun. Click on the previous link then on the PDF at the bottom for more details.

For the craters on 67P (the comet, that's what this thread is about, remember?), what is the anode? what is the cathode?

No JT, this thread is not just about 67P. You forget this is a CONTINUATION thread of "The Electric Comet Theory" The Pt2 was necessary because the forum can't handle more than 99 pages in one thread. The start was in 2009 HERE and the split to this thread HERE.

No need to thank me for keeping you right JT ;)

In my understanding ...

Sun = anode, holding a high positive voltage. Heliosheath = virtual cathode.
Comet = cathode, holding a negative charge. Coma = glow discharge.

Planets and comets all constitute secondary cathodes in the heliospheric glow discharge model...

Would you be kind enough to quote - from [the] two sources [which you cite] - at least one set of DIRECT EVIDENCE for at least one of David Talbott's predictions?[/LIST]

Try this one - "evidence for production of water and/or hydroxyl by electrical activity in the coma" David Talbott's prediction

Confirmed imo by

Measurements of the near-nucleus coma of comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko with the Alice far-ultraviolet spectrograph on Rosetta PDF
Alice said:
ABSTRACT
Aims. The Alice far-ultraviolet spectrograph onboard Rosetta is designed to observe emissions from various atomic and molecular species from within the coma of comet 67P/ Churyumov-Gerasimenko and to determine their spatial distribution and evolution with time and heliocentric distance.
Methods. Following orbit insertion in August 2014, Alice made observations of the inner coma above the limbs of the nucleus of the comet from cometocentric distances varying between 10 and 80 km. Depending on the position and orientation of the slit relative to the nucleus, emissions of atomic hydrogen and oxygen were initially detected. These emissions are spatially localized close to the nucleus and spatially variable with a strong enhancement above the comet’s neck at northern latitudes. Weaker emission from atomic carbon and CO were subsequently detected.
Results. Analysis of the relative line intensities suggests photoelectron impact dissociation of H2O vapor as the source of the observed H i and O i emissions. The electrons are produced by photoionization of H2O. The observed Ci emissions are also attributed to electron impact dissociation, of CO2, and their relative brightness to H i reflects the variation of CO2 to H2O column abundance in the coma.
Alice said:
5. Conclusion
In this initial report we have presented a few examples of the far-ultraviolet spectra obtained by Alice through the end of November 2014. Limb emission is found to be highly variable with position and time, and during late 2014 appears strongest at northern sub-spacecraft latitudes, and in the vicinity of the comet’s “neck”. Relative intensities of the strongest H i and O i emissions have not varied significantly during this time period and support the interpretation of electron dissociative excitation of H2O as the primary source of the emission. Ci emissions, similarly attributed to electron dissociative excitation of CO2, do vary relative to H i and O i, consistent with heterogeneous coma composition reported by other Rosetta instruments. Although the spectrograph slit is not perfectly aligned with the visible jets in our observations, the spatial variation of the emissions along the slit indicates that the excitation occurs within a few hundred meters of the surface and the gas and dust production are correlated. More detailed future analyses, combining the Alice spectra with data obtained by the other remote sensing instruments and in situ particle measurements, are forthcoming.



JeanTate said:
In your opinion, which of these *questions* is "wrong"?

The third one about 67P ;)

Perhaps more pertinently, in your worldview, how can a question be "wrong"?

Sure, how can it be wrong to ask questions ? In general of course it's not !

Think of the delays and stalling over FOI questions ;)


Specifically, how can a question that is directly relevant to what you have posted, be "wrong"?

However, It can be seen as the "wrong" question or just a tactic for example to deflect from more obvious / important questions.

In your case I think it's just a way to try to derail / control the thread. Just my opinion :D

I'm always very happy to "think again" (thank you for your suggestion); however, unless you give me some guidance - on how a directly pertinent question can be "wrong" - I have no idea how to even begin ...

See what I mean ?

Can you help me, please?

Sure, the door is that way :rolleyes:

Your defense of stupid is even more stupid
.

Well I was hinting at "What else could it be ? " :p


Interesting... but not surface tension. And not relevant to EDM or craters.

But it is relevant to the Electric Sun.

We do not have accurate measurements of exactly how spherical any of those stars are. But they should be pretty spherical because of gravity, not because of surface tension.

That's true and why we are studying our variable star and when we do we find.
"The sun is nearly the roundest object ever measured. If scaled to the size of a beach ball, it would be so round that the difference between the widest and narrow diameters would be much less than the width of a human hair."

Gravity can't account for that !

Do you even know what surface tension is?
Sure, The molecules at the surface do not have other like molecules on all sides of them and consequently they cohere more strongly to those directly associated with them on the surface.

You still haven't made your point about this EDM - Electrical Discharge Machining link ;)


Martian Blueberries

When the Mars Rover, Opportunity, landed in a small crater on the Martian surface it photographed a profusion of features that could change our ideas about the recent history of the solar system. Scattered around the crater were Blueberry sized spherules. Their blue-grey colour set them apart from the reddish hue of the Martian surface, and gave them their name.
They have been identified as 'hematite concretions', an iron-rich mineral which is the primary constituent of the soil surrounding them. A Plasma physicist, CJ Ransom of Vemasat Laboratories, has successfully reproduced them in the laboratory.

If the concretions can only be reproduced by electrical discharge, as seems likely, this could lay the foundation for a radical reassessment of planetary geology.
 
Sure, The molecules at the surface do not have other like molecules on all sides of them and consequently they cohere more strongly to those directly associated with them on the surface.

Good. Now, do you understand why surface tension is irrelevant at large scales?

You still haven't made your point about this EDM - Electrical Discharge Machining link ;)

Why should I bother? I made my point about a different link.

But OK, I'll comment. This link contradicts the other link. Here, it's claiming that the EDM melted blobs are an analogue to the small Martian spherules, whereas the other link claimed that these blobs were an analogue to large domes in the center of craters. Two radically different things. I'll also note that the spherules are found with uniform density within the bulk of Martian rocks. This precludes an EDM melt formation mechanism, which will occur primarily, if not exclusively, at the surface.

They also state, "If the concretions can only be reproduced by electrical discharge, as seems likely, this could lay the foundation for a radical reassessment of planetary geology." Well, not only can EDM not explain their formation, there are in fact other explanations, most notably the same as for the formation of concretions here on earth.

So, fail. Again, and as always. I'm sure there are even more errors in your link, but one is enough to prove my point, it's not worth my time to hunt for more.
 
Wouldn't be anything to do with selling books and DVD's would it?
Yes, that's certainly part of it.

However, compare "In the case of the electric comet, the way to avoid a cart running pell mell ahead of the horse is do what is presently being done: gather systematic observations of comet behavior and open the door of scientific imagination to a possibility too long ignored. Where is the problem in that approach? Is the comet discharging electrically?" (a general question), and "electric discharge as the essential contributor to the comet's increasing activity" (a sorta implication), with "Perhaps even a definitive conclusion: 67P is just a rock!"

Why is "67P is just a rock" tied (apparently inextricably) with "Is the comet discharging electrically?"? Surely the existence of electrical discharges associated with 67P is independent of 67P (or any comet) being just a rock? Yet clearly, for David Talbott, it's not.

Electrical discharges are pretty well understood, as many of Haig's sources point out, and as David Talbott himself has said. So it's fairly straight-forward to see, from the data returned from many comet missions (not just Rosetta) that there are no electrical discharges of the EDM kind ("visible electrical erosion of the surface in the fashion of electrical etching of surface materials and electric discharge machining (edm)"), and no "focused glow discharge enigmatically moving across the surface". Further, the electrical nature of 67P and its environment is becoming much clearer, as tusenfem has patiently pointed out many times.

So there's already an abundance of facts and data strongly inconsistent with the ech. That part of David Talbott's hope has already been fulfilled ... but the results are manifestly not what he was expecting/predicting/hoping.

Likewise, the "just a rock" part is also strongly inconsistent with the facts and data. Yet apparently David Talbott is continuing to hold firm in his insistence that the ech has not yet been falsified (see posts in the Rosetta blog which are apparently by him).

Why?

I think Tom Bridgman put his finger on the core reason, a long time ago: the ech is a critical part of the EU, and the EU is essentially the same as creationism, at an intellectual level. There's a core belief (something to do with catastrophic events in the solar system a few thousand or so years ago) and surrounding layers of semi-core beliefs (something to do with "electricity" being the core mechanism behind the believed catastrophic events). These are, to use a great many EU proponents' word, dogma; they are inerrant truths which cannot be questioned, challenged, or falsified.

In short, the EU is a religion, and a fundamentalist one at that. Many believers are both fervent and fanatical. And as is almost inevitable, they are not promoting pseudo-science, but take a virulent anti-science stance when it comes to defending their core beliefs.

This is why presenting facts and data to do with plasmas, the electrical nature of comets, etc has essentially zero effect ... while the words look like ones found in scientific papers and textbooks (e.g. "plasma", "discharge") they have dramatically different meanings: in the EU, "electric" means "magic".

That completes my analysis. However, there's a loose end: SAFIRE (I'll get to that later).
 
Thanks Haig. I'll respond to only some parts of your lengthy post (for now anyway).
JeanTate said:
Does a strong, quantitative inconsistency - between facts/data and 'theory' - in any one part of this [EC-ES-EU] chain of "requires" knock out the others?
Yes, that is what requires means imo.
Does it mean they have ALL the "quantitative" details worked out then No.
Thanks for the confirmation.

In particular, if "the Electric Sun theory" is inconsistent with some central facts/data, does that mean that 'the Electric Comet' idea (or 'electric comet hypothesis', as David Talbott puts it) is dead?

Well can we have the same wiggle room as mainstream ? :D
No.

The ech stands, or falls, independently of any other hypotheses.

Remember when the maths for a "gravity only" universe didn't add up mainstream invented the dark forces to keep their careers funding beliefs model alive :p
You haven't yet confirmed what I'm pretty sure you've posted elsewhere in the ISF - that you are merely a 'numpty' and have essentially zero understanding of science - but this statement by you seems to indicate that you also have little understanding of history.

But your - patently transparent - attempt at diversion is duly noted.

The Safire Project is making good progress on the quantitative side of the hypothesis for an electrical sun. Click on the previous link then on the PDF at the bottom for more details.
As I noted at the end of my previous post, I intend to consider SAFIRE again, later.

For now, I'll simply note that you have yet to answer any of the questions I asked of you, concerning SAFIRE, in the old thread (links later). Oh, and that, once again, it seems your profound ignorance of science is showing.

For the craters on 67P (the comet, that's what this thread is about, remember?), what is the anode? what is the cathode?
[...]

In my understanding ...

Sun = anode, holding a high positive voltage. Heliosheath = virtual cathode.
Comet = cathode, holding a negative charge. Coma = glow discharge.

Planets and comets all constitute secondary cathodes in the heliospheric glow discharge model...
Thanks for that.

Thanks too for showing/confirming that there is no ongoing EDM at 67P, per the facts and data.

Would you be kind enough to quote - from [the] two sources [which you cite] - at least one set of DIRECT EVIDENCE for at least one of David Talbott's predictions?

Try this one - "evidence for production of water and/or hydroxyl by electrical activity in the coma" David Talbott's prediction
Reading comprehension is not your strong suit, eh? ;)

I asked you for a quote from either of the two sources you cited earlier; you did not provide any such. :eek:

Again, confirmation that reading comprehension is not your strong suit? ;)

The parts of the PDF you quoted do not mention "hydroxyl", and the references to water concern its destruction, not its production.

In other words, the opposite of your imo :jaw-dropp

Would you care to try again?

In your opinion, which of these *questions* is "wrong"?

The third one about 67P ;)
Here's that question again: "For the craters on 67P (the comet, that's what this thread is about, remember?), what is the anode? what is the cathode?"

From what you wrote, it seems the part in parathesis - "the comet, that's what this thread is about, remember?" - is what you think is "wrong", right?
 

Wrong. Read the paper again. The water is being produced by sublimation from the comet, and then being dissociated by electrons. The electrons come from the water and CO2 being hit by a photon from the Sun. Those electrons then hit further H2O and CO2 molecules breaking them into their constituent parts. Talbott hasn't got a clue what he's talking about, and nor is he qualified in this field, so anything he says is of little or no relevance to anybody that is.
I'll say it again, where is the water coming from? This is a rock, according to you lot, right? So how are you getting water from this rock (with a density half that of water)? As Tusenfem mentioned in an earlier post, there ain't nothing electrical going on down there. They'd have noticed. And it sure as hell isn't coming from the protons in the solar wind combining with O somehow magicked from this non-existent rock.
 
[...]

As I noted at the end of my previous post, I intend to consider SAFIRE again, later.

For now, I'll simply note that you have yet to answer any of the questions I asked of you, concerning SAFIRE, in the old thread (links later). Oh, and that, once again, it seems your profound ignorance of science is showing.

[...]
Re [Haig] "this paper JMP and SAFIRE: What makes the sun shine? Click on the link and you'll see some recent information and a Video of the presentation. Also, at the bottom, below the video, you can download a PDF": my questions "what key questions occurred to you? How accurate did you find the intro/background to be?" (source)

My question: "the later material you posted not only covers what's in this particular video, but also gives at least a 'status report' of SAFIRE, much after the date of this video. If so, why did you post this?" (source)

JeanTate said:
Haig, I cannot find anything, in any SAFIRE project material, which says that the core assumption in the Juergens model (the one Ziggurat started with, in his calculations) has been changed! In fact, the material seems pretty clear that that core assumption is central to the whole SAFIRE project!!

So I'm at even more of a loss to understand what you wrote.

Please, can you provide references to credible electric Sun material in which it is clearly stated that the core assumption of the Juergens model is no longer used (has been replaced, etc)?
(source)

JeanTate said:
You remember we had a brief dialog about SAFIRE (I'll post links to the posts if it would help jog your memory)?

Here's one disconnect: you quote Alfven (and others?) on why space plasmas are really, really tough to model, understand, tame with math(s), etc, etc, etc.

Yet these, um, caveats which you insist so strongly on with respect to not only Ziggurat's BOTE calculations, but also everything any and all space scientists (like tusenfem) has ever published (so it seems). And you insist on this without - I'm 99% sure - you ever having read any of the published papers, much less put the effort in, yourself, to understand the relevant physics.

However, SAFIRE gets your explicit blessing. Fair enough ... except for the fact that you do not seem to have considered that it may not use this "second approach". When I asked you about this, you simply did not bother to reply. I have zero expectation that you'll reply now either, but at least it's worth asking: Haig, can you point to where - explicitly - in the published SAFIRE material (starting with that which you cited earlier in this thread) the project team says it has adopted this "second approach"? And if you can't, why does SAFIRE have your blessing?
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More links upon request ...
 
Here's some copy/pasta that I calculated back in January in response to the first results regarding the detection of water on 67P. I think the results dated back to some months previously. Can't remember where I posted it, but kept it to save doing the calcs again.
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Right, to start with some easily found facts:
1 litre of water is 3.3 x 10^25 molecules of H2O.
Solar wind speed varies, but a good average for this purpose is 400 km/s.
Density of the solar wind at about 2.7 AU; well, at 1 AU it has been measured at about 7 protons cm^3. This also varies, but is a good average. This decreases as the inverse square of the distance from the Sun. 2.7^2 = 7.29. So, a good approximation for the solar wind density at 67P at the moment (edit: this would be about August) is 1 proton cm^3.
Area of 67P impacted by the solar wind; latest measurements put it about 4km x 3km at its widest and longest points.
Of course it is very irregular in shape, but let's be generous and say it presents 12km^2 to the solar wind at any one point.
Water production from 67P as of July-August 2014 equals an average 1 litre per second.

So, how many protons are hitting 67P per second? 12km^2 = 1.2 x 10^11 cm^2. Every second 400km worth of the solar wind is blowing by. 400km = 4 x 10^7 cm. Every square centimeter is getting hit by one proton.
So, (4.0 x 10^7) x (1.2 x 10^11) = 4.8 x 10^18 proton impacts every second. Now, it takes two of those protons to make a water molecule, but we'll just be generous again and see how many OH molecules would be formed, which will be the number I just calculated; 4.8 x 10^18.
As previously shown, 1 litre of water contains 3.3 x 10^25 molecules of water! So even being very generous in my application of quantities regarding size, and only using the formation of OH rather than H2O, you are short by a mere 7 (SEVEN!) orders of magnitude in the required number of protons needed to produce just 1 litre of water per second. And this is in July-August. On its last trip around, the peak measured production was 1.7 x 10^28 molecules per second. So we are looking at 9-10 orders of magnitude less protons than are necessary to account for the observed water production. I'm not sure who is doing the maths over at Thunderbolts, but they sure aren't very good at it.
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So EU has so far predicted absolutely nothing correctly, cannot explain the density of the comet, cannot explain the water and CO2 production, and we have seen nothing electrical happening on the comet. Let me do some more mental calculations................
....yep, that equals a big fat zero.
 
You seem to have forgoten you've asked this question many times before and my answer is still the same ...
Sorry, Haig, but a post listing delusions not a good answer unless you want to be associated with deluded cranks :jaw-dropp!
But given your continued support of the delusion that comets are rocks over several years, the embarrassment of being associated with deluded cranks is not obviously a factor with your posts.

You repeat the delusion that EDM happens in space revealing ignorance about what EDM is again.

You reveal again that you are incapable of recognizing obvious ignorance, delusions and lies The ignorance, delusions and lies in the Thunderbolts web site, videos etc. :jaw-dropp!

You mindlessly support the delusion the craters are electric.

You lie about a Thunderbolts link having evidence that supports electric comets. That links repeats bits of The ignorance, delusions and lies in the Thunderbolts web site, videos etc. :jaw-dropp!
That link is full of the dumb act of thinking that the authors ignorance of and delusions about the science of comets means that the mainstream model (which works) means that the electric comet delusion is valid.
That link is full of all of the garbage that Electric comets still do not exist! debunks.

You have found another source of ignorance, delusions and lies and mindlessly support that!
2 June 2015 Haig: The plasmacosmology.net ignorance, delusions and lies about EDM
 
Haig: The basic idiocy of the Safire Project

...The Safire Project is making good progress on the quantitative side of the hypothesis for an electrical sun.
You need to know more about the subject you post about, Haig.
The Safire Project a good example of circular reasoning
  • We have the idea that the Sun is a basically giant light bulb
  • We will do an experiment that is a model of the Sun as a light bulb.
  • They will probably get results that confirm that a model of the Sun as a light bulb shows that that model is a light bulb :jaw-dropp!

What makes the Safire Project more idiotic is that they ignore the real Sun and other stars, Haig.
No magical electric currents powering the Sun have been detected.
They will not produce any neutrinos thus invalidating the already crank electric sun idea.
They do not invalidate centuries of testing the laws of thermodynamics and gases or the decades of testing of nuclear physics that show that stars have to be powered by fusion.
They will not be able to explain much (if anything) that stellar physics can explain. Probably not even the size of stars! How do they explain nova? Actually variable stars? The Hertzsprung-Russell Diagram?
 
Haig: Cite the lab experiments of discharges + rock that produce cometary ions

I'll say it again, where is the water coming from? This is a rock, according to you lot, right? So how are you getting water from this rock (with a density half that of water)? ...
There is another obvious and startling missing bit of evidence with Talbott's electric comet: Where are the cited laboratory experiments that create the same species of ions as seen in comets with electrical discharges on rocks?
All we have seen so far is Thunderbolts fantasies that these exist.

Since Haig presents himself as the unwavering supporter of the electric comet:
4 June 2015 Haig: Where are the cited laboratory experiments that create the same species of ions as seen in comets with electrical discharges on rocks?
 
There is another obvious and startling missing bit of evidence with Talbott's electric comet: Where are the cited laboratory experiments that create the same species of ions as seen in comets with electrical discharges on rocks?
All we have seen so far is Thunderbolts fantasies that these exist.

Since Haig presents himself as the unwavering supporter of the electric comet:
4 June 2015 Haig: Where are the cited laboratory experiments that create the same species of ions as seen in comets with electrical discharges on rocks?

Or, indeed, how do they explain the following, from Tom Bridgman's latest post:

The Electric Comet Theory of Water Production

Rosetta has detected water coming off comet 67P. In the standard comet model, this water is due to the sublimation of water-ice which is part of the comet composition.

Some Electric Universe 'theorists' claim the comet is negatively charged, forming water from positive H ions in solar wind combining with negative OH- ions repelled from nucleus. So we should see OH- and water only ahead of comet, between comet and Sun where it is largely formed, at least according to their model.

Yet the OH ion observed is not OH-, but OH+! Not only that, but the OH+ and water are observed in the TAIL of comet, always moving away from the nucleus and away from the Sun! Virtually all ions observed in comet tails are positive ions moving away from the comet! It positive ions are supposed to be attracted to the negative comet nucleus, according to the Electric comet model, then this too is a Major Electric Comet FAIL.

This is not a problem for the standard comet model as the neutral atoms from the comet are predominantly photo-ionized by solar radiation, which tends to liberate electrons, producing positive ions.

http://dealingwithcreationisminastr...2015/05/electric-comets-more-failures-of.html
 
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