Continuation The Electric Comet Theory Boogaloo (Part 2)

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Sol88: The delusion that surface = bulk = measured for one lobe properties

So....again that leaves mainstream (Jonesdave116, Reality Check, Tusenfem, Captain Swoop et al) with the density and porosity problem!!!
It leaves your delusion about a density and porosity problem, Sol88:.
15 November 2016 Sol88: The delusion that surface at one point = bulk = measured for one lobe properties.

The bulk density of 67P/Churyumov–Gerasimenko = 0.533 ± 0.006 g/cm3 (half that of water, a sixth that of rock :eye-poppi!).
The MUPUS experiment failed to measure the properties at one place on the surface of 67P other than it was consistent with sintered ices.
Properties of the 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko interior revealed by CONSERT radar (31 July 2015)
The CONSERT experiment measured the composition and porosity of the "upper part of the "head" of 67P".
 
Sol88: Basically a lie that VIRTIS showed that 67P was rocky

Would Visible and Infrared Thermal Imaging Spectrometer
15 November 2016 Sol88: Basically a lie that VIRTIS showed that 67P was rocky with a lie by quote mining.

Rosetta scientists unveil the source of ice and dust jets on comet 67P
What you quoted was a science reporter ignorantly writing "rocky" (and even rock!) and rhetorically asking where all of the ice was.
One of the big surprises of the Rosetta mission has been discovering just how dark 67P is: completely unlike an “dirty snowball”, which was how astronomer Fred Whipple described comets in the 1950s. Although images from missions to other comets have shown surfaces that are more likely to be mixtures of ice and rock, findings from an instrument called the Visible and Infrared Thermal Imaging Spectrometer onboard Rosetta have shown that 67P is rocky and almost completely covered in a layer of organic compounds – which was not expected. So where is all the ice?

Now researchers using the same instrument have come up with an answer. They discovered a day-night cycle of ice sublimation (where solid turns to a gas without first turning to liquid) and re-condensation linked to the amount of sunlight. In short, when parts of the comet are in shadow, it is cold enough for ice to form; when the sun shines on the surface, the ice disappears.
Detection of exposed H2O ice on the nucleus of comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko as observed by Rosetta OSIRIS and VIRTIS instruments
 
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Sol88: Adds to the lie that the Jean-Pierre Bibring proposition is comets are rocks

As Jean-Pierre Bibring proposition that comets are
15 November 2016 Sol88: Adds to the lie that the Jean-Pierre Bibring proposition is comets are rocks.
Consolidated material is not rock. A mixture of ices and dust is consolidated material.
Regional surface morphology of comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko from Rosetta/OSIRIS images: The southern hemisphere
The regional boundaries are based on clear morphological and/or topographical boundaries. The used terminology is also similar to El-Maarry et al. (2015a). For instance, “consolidated materials” refers to units that appear rocky and are cohesive enough to display lineaments and fractures (El-Maarry et al. 2015b).“Smooth terrains” refers to units that generally appear to be composed of non-cohesive materials enclosed by rough consolidated units and are particularly thick enough to mask the underlying units. Finally, the term “dust coating” is used to describe materials that show signs of wide-spread mobilization, and appear to be thin enough to reveal outcrops of underlying units
This is about the appearance of the terrain, not what the terrain is actually made of.

15 November 2016 Sol88: A lie by quote mining Fulle, M., et al, 2016
 
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It leaves your delusion about a density and porosity problem, Sol88:.
15 November 2016 Sol88: The delusion that surface at one point = bulk = measured for one lobe properties.

The bulk density of 67P/Churyumov–Gerasimenko = 0.533 ± 0.006 g/cm3 (half that of water, a sixth that of rock :eye-poppi!).
The MUPUS experiment failed to measure the properties at one place on the surface of 67P other than it was consistent with sintered ices.
Properties of the 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko interior revealed by CONSERT radar (31 July 2015)
The CONSERT experiment measured the composition and porosity of the "upper part of the "head" of 67P".

patches of frost are not "sintered ices" read the rest of the literature!

but there is "ice" here somewhere???? and putting it under the surface just introduces more problems for the mainstream....

5 NO DISTRIBUTED WATER SOURCES

The sources of water vapour and other gases can be the nucleus surface and the dust particles in the coma. In the second case, they are referred to as distributed sources. It is a tradition derived from ground-based observations to infer the presence of distributed sources when the gas column density is a power law of the nucleus distance with an index shallower than - 1. Rubin et al. (2011)have shown that this approach (applied to coma gas density when the index is shallower than - 2) is misleading when applied to in situ data. One of the reasons is again linked to the nucleus shape, which makes the diurnal variations of the local gas density larger than those due to the nucleus distance. In order to infer distributed sources from gas data collected in situ, we must again rely on 3D coma models. A comet where most water is coming from distributed sources is 103P/Hartley 2 (103P hereinafter). The water-loss rate observed from the ground is 9 × 10 27 mol s - 1 (Combi et al. 2011). At the same time, 3D coma models infer a total flux from the nucleus surface of 2 × 10 27 mol s - 1 and a ratio between night and sub-solar water loss of 30 per cent (Fougere et al. 2013). For 67P, the water-loss rate observed from the ground (Keller et al. 2015b) matches that inferred at the nucleus surface by 3D coma models (Fougere et al. 2016). The night-to-day water-loss ratio assumed by 3D coma models at the nucleus surface is 2 per cent. This night water-loss rate is an ad hoc assumption adopted to fit the ROSINA-COPS data collected at the terminator, and cannot come from the entire night-side nucleus surface: its temperature is too low to eject so much water (Choukroun et al. 2015). It may come from the surface just after sunset due to its thermal lag (Shi et al. 2016), or from distributed sources. Assuming a process similar to that occurring in 103P, where 80 per cent of water from distributed sources requires a night-to-sub-solar ratio of the water-loss rate at MNRAS 462, S2–S8 (2016) by guest on November 14, 2016 http://mnras.oxfordjournals.org/ Downloaded from Unexpected and significant findings in 67P S5 the surface of 30 per cent (Fougere et al. 2013), we can conclude that in 67P, at most 5 per cent of water is coming from distributed sources. This conclusion is consistent with the accuracy of the observed 67P water-loss rate. This water content is much lower than the dust-to-water mass ratio of six in the nucleus. Comet 67P ejects very dry dust, where with dry, we define dust containing less water than 15 per cent of its mass (dust is wet in the opposite case). From Earth (Fulle et al. 2010;Morenoetal. 2016) and from Rosetta (Rotundi et al. 2015; Fulle et al. 2016) we observe the same dust-loss rate, thus excluding that dust releases a significant water mass. A sublimating and/or fragmenting particle decreases its mass during its travel in space, implying a strong change in the dust size distribution from the nucleus surface to Rosetta, and from Rosetta to the outer coma observed from ground. The dust size distributions at the nucleus surface observed in the smooth plains by ROLIS (Mottola et al. 2015), inferred from Rosetta observations (Rotundi et al. 2015; Fulle et al. 2016), and inferred from ground-based observations (Fulle et al. 2010;Morenoetal.2016), do not show any systematic shift from large to small sizes. COSIMA observes dry dust (Schulz et al. 2015). Dust in 67P’s coma does neither sublimate nor fragment more than 5 per cent of its mass, confirming that most dust mass is ejected in compact particles.
 
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Yup, thought so!
If you are going to persist with your delusion after 7 years that comets are rocks and even lie about the science, then I am going to document the delusion and lies for world to read.

  1. 29 August 2016 Sol88: Repeating a lie does not make it true. You know that the electrostatic transport of dust across airless bodies is not anything to do with sublimation.
  2. The multiple lies about Static electricity may transport dust across airless planetary bodies.
  3. 29 August 2016 Sol88: A lie about data showing an electrical discharge screams your persistent delusions about comets :eye-poppi!
  4. 29 August 2016 Sol88: The stupidity of a "The effect of surface topography on the lunar photoelectron sheath and electrostatic dust transport" paper.
  5. 30 August 2016 Sol88: A lie about collimated jets since there is no such problem, e.g. they can issue from pits which any rational person knows collimates them :eek:!
  6. 30 August 2016 Sol88: A delusion that the 19 Feb. outburst issued from an area where it was impossible for it to be collimated (which it was not :eek:!).
  7. 30 August 2016 Sol88: A delusion that the Sun does not exist :D! Sunlight ionizes gas.
  8. 30 August 2016 Sol88: A delusion that a landslide possibly triggering the outburst magically makes it impossible for it to be collimated.
  9. 30 August 2016 Sol88: The delusion that an outburst described as clouds is collimated jets
  10. 30 August 2016 Sol88: Repeated delusion that electrostatic transport of dust has anything to do with his debunked delusions about comets
  11. 8 November 2016 Sol88: Still an unthinking cult follower of the Thunderbolts delusion of an electric comet.
  12. 8 November 2016 Sol88: Lies about a paper being related to jets.
  13. 8 November 2016 Sol88: An irrelevant half-lie about lightning and mainstream science.
  14. 8 November 2016 Sol88: Lies about us having to reconcile a "dust covered ice" surface and a porous "dust/ice" interior.
  15. 10 November 2016 Sol88: A "ROCK" lie and a lie abut porosity measurements.
  16. 10 November 2016 Sol88: Repeated inability to understand the words "surface" and "interior" :p!
  17. 10 November 2016 Sol88: The delusion that the rock (as in asteroids) he thinks comets are is "70%-80% Vacuum" :jaw-dropp!
  18. 11 November 2016 Sol88: A typical ignorant and irrelevant delusion - that double layers do magic.
  19. 11 November 2016 Sol88: The "a surprise and so my delusion is correct" delusion!
  20. 11 November 2016 Sol88: A comment about comet 67P in an article about comet 67P, not metallic asteroids.
  21. 15 November 2016 Sol88: Cites one of many observations that makes jets = electrical discharges into a delusion.
  22. 15 November 2016 Sol88: A lie of "He nearly said they were rock, albeit fluffy rock".
  23. 15 November 2016 Sol88: A lie by quote mining Fulle, M., et al, 2016
  24. 15 November 2016 Sol88: A lie - a delusion cannot explain anything about comets.
  25. 15 November 2016 Sol88: The delusion that cometary science stopped in 1950 with Whipple :eye-poppi!
  26. 15 November 2016 Sol88: The delusion that surface at one point = bulk = measured for one lobe properties.
  27. 15 November 2016 Sol88: Basically a lie that VIRTIS showed that 67P was rocky with a lie by quote mining.
  28. 15 November 2016 Sol88: Adds to the lie from quote mining that the Jean-Pierre Bibring proposition is comets are rocks.
The parroting of the Thunderbolt cult ignorance, delusions and lies in this thread alone (continuation of a thread that is now 7 years of delusions from Sol88 and Haig!).
10th April 2015: The ignorance, delusions and lies in the Thunderbolts web site, videos, etc.
More than a year and counting of fear of doing basic physics: 25 June 2015 Sol88: Use a impact calculator to calculate the size of the crater on a comet made of rock by the Deep Impact impactor.
 
Sol88: A "no ice" lie that we have seen before (ice found on Temple 1 and 67P)

patches of frost are not "sintered ices" read the rest of the literature!
It was the VIRTIS instrument that you lied about that found "patches of frost".
15 November 2016 Sol88: Basically a lie that VIRTIS showed that 67P was rocky with a lie by quote mining.


15 November 2016 Sol88: Cannot comprehend what he has cited - the MUPUS experiment found an icy layer consistent with sintered ices.

15 November 2016 Sol88: A "no ice" lie that we have seen before (ice found on Temple 1 and 67P)
 
Sol88 : "5 NO DISTRIBUTED WATER SOURCES" is a fantasy since there are no problems

putting it under the surface just introduces more problems for the mainstream....
15 November 2016 Sol88: "5 NO DISTRIBUTED WATER SOURCES" is a fantasy since there are no problems for the mainstream in that section.

The traditional method of inferring distributed sources being present from the ground is known to be flawed for in situ measurements.
The water-loss rate observed from the ground matches that from models.
That places a constraint of 5% from distributed sources (the dust in the coma).
A point of section 5 is that 67P ejects "very dry dust".

5 NO DISTRIBUTED WATER SOURCES [/QUOTE]
 
True. I was just reading something on Google Books, that talks about Whipple's model, and the fact that Delsemme had estimated a dust/ice ratio of 0.61 - 0.76 in 1977. Fly-by missions have moved that up to 1:1 or greater. Now we have a more accurate figure. That is not to say that the ratio is applicable to every comet. Oort cloud comets could be very different. Hale-Bopp was spewing out ~ 250 000 l/s in 1997. Hartley 2 was seemingly far more 'icy' than 67P and Tempel 1, and had a large distributed source - that is, shed loads of ice in the coma.
Unsurprisingly, not all comets are the same. None of them, however, are electric.


Well, that's at odds with
The dust size distributions at the nucleus surface observed in the smooth plains by ROLIS (Mottola et al. 2015), inferred from Rosetta observations (Rotundi et al. 2015; Fulle et al. 2016), and inferred from ground-based observations (Fulle et al. 2010;Morenoetal.2016), do not show any systematic shift from large to small sizes. COSIMA observes dry dust (Schulz et al. 2015). Dust in 67P’s coma does neither sublimate nor fragment more than 5 per cent of its mass, confirming that most dust mass is ejected in compact particles.
 
from Reality Check
26. 15 November 2016 Sol88: The delusion that surface at one point = bulk = measured for one lobe properties.

Yazus Cristus my man, the Philae probe bounced acros a hard surface to end up jammed under a "well consolidated" rocky looking outcrop and that the MUPUS hammer just happen to hit a patch of sintered ice!!!!

The probe then started to hammer itself into the subsurface, but was unable to make more than a few millimetres of progress even at the highest power level of the hammer motor.

“If we compare the data with laboratory measurements, we think that the probe encountered a hard surface with strength comparable to that of solid ice,” says Tilman Spohn, principal investigator for MUPUS.

or well consolidated mineral aggregates :rolleyes:

Get ya hand off it ya mug!

Would have been much better to read the sentence as
“If we compare the data with laboratory measurements, the probe encountered a hard surface we think assume with strength comparable to that of solid ice, but maybe some material we were not expecting, as we only tested the insertion into cometary like materials. Those were simulated by Ytong and solid foam blocks. The blocks were highly porous (up to 90%) that appropriately mimics cometary material but not at all weak; their compressive strength ranged from 0.79 MPa, through 1.75 MPa, to 5–7 MPa (for solid silica foam). The estimated strength of cometary nuclei vary from 25 kPa to 2.5 MPa. Since the test were passed successfully, one can assume that the hammering device would be able to insert the penetrator into the comet as well. ”
MUPUS INSTRUMENT
 
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Well, that's at odds with
Not if you can understand English, Sol88.
Comets are different means that no one expects every comet to be identical.
  • Hale-Bopp is not 67P!
  • Hartley 2 is no 67P!
  • Tempel 1 is not 67P!
  • etc. etc.
Dust is not water. Dust is not measured in liters per second (" ~ 250 000 l/s") :eye-poppi!
 
For goodness sake. All this nonsense coming from a person who believes in a totally evidence free bunch of mythology inspired woo! We should be quaking in our boots!
None of this hand waving adds anything to your failed 'model'. Care to explain how it does? With evidence? Or at least some figures.

Ice has been seen/ detected by various instruments at this and other comets. Including CO2 ice: http://meetingorganizer.copernicus.org/EGU2016/EGU2016-11930.pdf
It is an indisputable fact. On the surface, within the surface material and below the surface. It has been seen in the coma after the Tempel 1 impact, and at Hartley 2, and now at this comet.

'Distributed sources' means ice sublimating within the coma, as seen at Hartley 2. Hartley 2 was particularly energetic:
https://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2010/18nov_cometsnowstorm
You can even see the ice that your idiot overlords said didn't exist, in the picture in that article. The same wasn't seen at Tempel 1 (until after the impact) or 67P. Although there is some sublimation going on in the coma at 67P:
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1608.08774.pdf

We don't have to 'put the ice under the surface', it has been seen/ detected under the surface! How many times do you need to have the same links quoted at you? Try reading them!
https://agu.confex.com/agu/fm15/meetingapp.cgi/Paper/85998
Especially the bit that says;
Using its two continuum channels, MIRO has mapped the thermal properties of the nucleus subsurface (depths from millimeters to tens of centimeters), and generally finds its properties to be consistent with very porous, dusty material. We see temperature variations due to diurnal and seasonal changes in insolation, and also see evidence for subsurface ice in some regions.

Add that to the ice after the Tempel 1 impact, and the ice excavated by the jets at Hartley 2, and that is how we know that there is ice under the surface. Get it? It's not rocket science. So, no, it doesn't create any problems. If the dust: ice ratio is higher than assumed, that means that there is less total ice than assumed. It still remains a highly porous chunk of dust, ice and organics. As we already knew. All perfectly mainstream. No woo required. No evidence of any woo (or rock) anyway.
There will be some combination of compact dust, fluffy dust, ice and porosity that equates to a density of 0.5 g/cm^3. As measured. Without drilling a dirty great hole in the comet, there is little chance of discovering precisely what those ratios are.

Nothing much has changed. It still isn't a rock. Those are called asteroids. There is still none of T & Ts electrical discharge woo going on. None of this helps that failed model.
 
or well consolidated mineral aggregates

So I suppose I'll have to keep posting this until it seeps its way into your brain - for the second time:


Furthermore, the evolution of the structure and physical properties of the analogue samples during sublimation also provides interesting clues to understand the surface of cometary nucleus, TNOs or icy satellites. Ice–tholins samples placed under simulated comet surface conditions acquire a vertical stratification with an uppermost porous mantle of refractory tholins overlaying a layer of hard ice formed by re-condensation/sintering under the mantle.
And;

The hardening of the ice below the sublimation mantle, as observed in laboratory experiments, also provides a plausible mechanism to explain the observation of brittle mechanical behavior of some regions on the surface of 67P/Churyumov–Gerasimenko.
From: Sublimation of ice–tholins mixtures: A morphological and spectrophotometric study.
Poch, O., et al, 2016
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...19103515005163 (paywalled)

See also: Sublimation of water ice mixed with silicates and tholins: Evolution of surface texture and reflectance spectra, with implications for comets.
Poch, O., et al, 2016
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...19103515005709 (paywalled)
 
Sol88: An implication that Tilman Spohn is ignorant or deluded

Would have been much better to read the sentence as
15 November 2016 Sol88: An implication that Tilman Spohn is ignorant or deluded.
A knowledgeable knows about the enormous body of evidence that comets contain ices. A rational person knows that experiments show that ices can be harder than what the MUPUS hammer encountered.

This is what a knowledgeable, rational person says about the MUPUS results:
Philae settles in dust-covered ice
If we compare the data with laboratory measurements, the probe encountered a hard surface we think with strength comparable to that of solid ice, but maybe some material we were not expecting” says Tilman Spohn, principal investigator for MUPUS.

Looking at the results of the thermal mapper and the probe together, the team have made the preliminary assessment that the upper layers of the comet’s surface consist of dust of 10–20 cm thickness, overlaying mechanically strong ice or ice and dust mixtures.

At greater depths, the ice likely becomes more porous, as the overall low density of the nucleus – determined by instruments on the Rosetta orbiter – suggests.

ETA: The science that Sol88 is still denying:
Thermal and mechanical properties of the near-surface layers of comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko
Thermal and mechanical material properties determine comet evolution and even solar system formation because comets are considered remnant volatile-rich planetesimals. Using data from the Multipurpose Sensors for Surface and Sub-Surface Science (MUPUS) instrument package gathered at the Philae landing site Abydos on comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko, we found the diurnal temperature to vary between 90 and 130 K. The surface emissivity was 0.97, and the local thermal inertia was 85 ± 35 J m−2 K−1s-1/2. The MUPUS thermal probe did not fully penetrate the near-surface layers, suggesting a local resistance of the ground to penetration of >4 megapascals, equivalent to >2 megapascal uniaxial compressive strength. A sintered near-surface microporous dust-ice layer with a porosity of 30 to 65% is consistent with the data.
(emphasis added)
I would look up the actual experiment(s) but we know that Sol88 will persist with his 7 year old delusion tat comets are rocks regardless of the real world.
 
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....end up jammed under a "well consolidated" rocky looking.....

Ahh, there we have it, true to form, we are back to the highly scientific principle of pareidolia!

The same 'rocky looking' stuff that the DI impactor blasted a dirty great hole in!
 
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At the risk of having to repeat an entire post from just a couple of days ago, I'll try this again:
Here is the thermal inertia as measured by MIRO at asteroid Steins: 450–850 J/(m2 s0.5 K).
And they say:
These values are rock-like, and are unlike the powdered-regolith surface of the Moon.

Here is what they measured at 67P: 10-60 J m−2 K−1 s−0.5.
And they say:
Such low thermal inertia values are consistent with a highly porous, loose, regolith-like surface. These values are similar to those derived elsewhere on the nucleus.

That is rather a large difference between an asteroid (rock) and a comet (not a rock).

Millimeter and submillimeter measurements of asteroid (2867) Steins during the Rosetta fly-by
Gulkis, S., et al, 2010
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0032063310000553 (paywalled, but the abstract will do)

Dark side of comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko in Aug-Oct 2014
MIRO/Rosetta continuum observations of polar night in the southern regions

Choukroun, M., et al, 2015
http://www.aanda.org/articles/aa/full_html/2015/11/aa26181-15/aa26181-15.html (free)
 
Sorry no link as it's being discussed at the COMETS2016 abstracts by alphabetical order, click here.

Modelling of the Plasma Environment Surrounding 67p: What Is the
Effect of the Convective Electric Field on Ion Density Profiles?
Arnaud Beth (1), Marina Galand (1) , Steven Schwartz (1)
(1) Imperial College London
Department of Physics, Prince Consort Road, SW7 2AZ, London, United Kingdom
EMail: [email protected]




from the Wiki link above

So it DOES seem electric fields are very important VERY IMPORTANT!!

because



How does that tie in with the work you are doing Tusenfem?

mainly on current sheets.

you cannot compare the convective electric filed at 67p with the earth's magnetosphere, tbe two environments are not comparable.
at 67p the convective or motional ele tric field, created by rhe moving magnetic field in the restframe of the freshly produced ions, is directly inluencing the behaviour of the ions
this does not tie in with my current sheets, which are created by curl b
 
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