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25th September 2021, 09:50 PM | #961 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I don't know why so many seem so eager to dismiss this as "all in their heads." Sure, some people might attribute their random pains and illnesses to "Havana syndrome." But the original reports were from intelligent, educated, responsible professionals with a lot of overseas experience, and apparently many of them were affected in their scattered homes, not in the embassy, and they displayed conditions that were medically confirmed.
Here's one theory that the problem is not sonic weapons, but pesticide exposure.
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Maybe that's not right either. But medicine has been notorious for telling people who couldn't be easily diagnosed that they need a shrink, and who then turn out to be real victims of rare but real illnesses and conditions. Other reports seem to have extensive detail. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-58396698 https://nymag.com/intelligencer/arti...ms-causes.html |
26th September 2021, 12:09 AM | #962 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Many people don't dismiss this as "all in their heads", many journalists are willing to write whatever they are told to write, but most skeptics do 'dismiss', i.e. explain, the 'Havana Syndrome' as being 'all in their heads'. Why do you think that is?
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It only took a couple of minutes after the OP before your idea about the invulnerability to mass psychogenic illness/mass hysteria of "intelligent, educated, responsible professionals with at lot of overseas expertise" was presented. I think that you should go back and start there because you appear to think that you are presenting a new idea that hasn't already been discussed:
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Yes, that is one theory, and like with all the others there are extensive details to back it up and they have all been presented and discussed in the thread, the one about pesticide exposure by me when I heard about it. I was open to it because diplomats (and CIA agents, apparently) at the time had asked the Cubans for more fumigación because of the fear of Zika, and from my experience in Cuba, I know that the dwellings of most Cubans aren't exactly airtight, i.e. the cloud of fumigation disappears very quickly, removed by ordinary drafts, whereas diplomats and CIA operatives tend to live in air-conditioned and thus insulated houses and hotel rooms where the pesticides might stay longer. This is important because no Cubans seem to have been affected. Another argument against the idea is that only (very few, but still ...) American tourists seem to have been affected, so if you want to stick to the pesticide idea, you would have to argue that the hotel rooms of U.S. officials and their families were deliberately swamped with this poison, but the rooms of other foreigners weren't, which I haven't even heard the CIA claim. In fact, the U.S. investigative commissions seem to have agreed on the microwave idea (after the recordings of the noise from the sonic weapons were shown to be of crickets), except, of course, the initial FBI group, which came up with mass psychogenic illness as the explanation. But read the thread, it's only 25 pages long, and present us with your arguments against mass psychogenic illness as the most likely explanation for the 'Havana Syndrome'. Educaton, intelligence and experience don't protect you from mass hysteria even though teenage girls seem to be more susceptible to it. You should also read up on the atmosphere of hysteria at the Ground Zero of the 'Havana Syndrome' as described by the people who were there, a hysteria that has been reproduced on a global scale in recent weeks by declarations from the State Department. And let me give you a brand new argument against the pesticide idea: How were the two affected security officials in Washington poisoned with pesticides? How did CIA operative Smithers in India get poisoned? And what about the recent 'incidents' in Berlin and Vienna? Based on my experience with Vienna and Berlin, I don't think they spray very much against Zika. I can imagine that they might fumigate against Zika in India. I don't know about Washington. I have only spent one week there, but that was before Zika. I have seen fumigators in action in Havana. They are pretty conspicuous. I think they would cause quite a stir in Washington! |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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26th September 2021, 12:39 AM | #963 |
Penultimate Amazing
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It has actually occurred even to the State Department that it can no longer be merely a foreign power, singular. Remember this from the NYT:
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It has now become a conglomerate of all kinds of foreign powers, plural. It has grown exponentially since 2016-17 from Castro, in Havana, with supersonic crickets, to now in 2021 everybody, everywhere, with everything.
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Well put! |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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26th September 2021, 02:55 AM | #964 |
Philosopher
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I think you misunderstand the nature of mass hysteria. Being educated, intelligent, responsible, does not prevent people becoming subject to mass hysteria. Indeed some of the skills expected of a diplomat or spy, being a close listener, carefully considering what is said, even a degree of empathy, may make people more susceptible.
Right at the beginning I pointed out the symptoms including subtle neurological damage could match chronic pesticide toxicity. The two hypotheses are not exclusive, there may have been a trigger event, pesticide toxicity, that then led to a mass hysterical event because of the poor way it was handled. |
26th September 2021, 04:19 AM | #965 | |||
Penultimate Amazing
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Don't leave out the crickets! Everybody does, at this point. The weird sounds heard by many of the first victims were the most obvious trigger event, and many of the people suffering from the 'Havana Syndrome' confirmed that the recording made public by the AP was the sound they had heard. You don't need more than that.
It would be interesting to know if the (senior, if I remember correctly) CIA official dubbed Patient Zero, the guy who also spread the rumor and thus the hysteria to his Canadian neighbors, was one of those diagnosed with brain damages or if he was one of the cases that were dismissed, but I don't think the CIA wants to reveal this. |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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26th September 2021, 04:41 AM | #966 | |||
Penultimate Amazing
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The role of Democratic Senator Jeanne Shaheen:
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Shaheen is a true believer. There is no doubt in her mind that diplomats and agents have been attacked. She only hesitates about claiming outright that Putin is the perpetrator:
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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26th September 2021, 11:05 AM | #967 |
Penultimate Amazing
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26th September 2021, 11:06 AM | #968 |
Philosopher
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We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good. |
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26th September 2021, 11:21 AM | #969 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Quote:
The timeline of the 'incidents' would have been essential in an investigation of an outbreak of mass hysteria. |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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27th September 2021, 08:52 AM | #970 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I highly recommend this article from today!
I don't know anything about the site other than what I can read in a short Wikipedia article in German and on MediaBias/FactCheck, which calls it "least biased" with "High Factual Reporting":
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The here, here, here, here and here articles with titles and dates: US Diplomats Attacked in Cuba… by Crickets (Fair Observer, Jan 9, 2019) How Reasonable Are Suspicions Promoted by the Media? (Fair Observer, May 13, 2021) Who’s Afraid of Directed Energy Attacks? (Fair Observer, May 6, 2021) Media: How Debunked Stories Continue to Thrive (Fair Observer, May 19, 2021) The Media Is Suffering From the Havana Syndrome (Fair Observer, Sep 23, 2021) |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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28th September 2021, 03:20 AM | #971 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Quote:
A ghost disease reveals Vienna as the playground of spies Eine Geisterkrankheit is a disease caused by ghosts, but in this case I think it may also be a pun on the word Geisteskrankheit, mental disorder. Havanna-Syndrom: Der Ton wird giftiger, und die ersten Köpfe rollen (Neue Zürcher Zeitung, Sep 27, 2021) Havana Syndrome: The tone is getting more toxic, and the first heads have started to roll |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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28th September 2021, 05:05 AM | #972 |
Penultimate Amazing
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The comments section of this article didn't stay open for long:
What to know about ‘Havana Syndrome’, the mysterious illness affecting U.S. officials around the world (WP, Sep 21, 2021) "Comments are now closed." |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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29th September 2021, 02:02 AM | #973 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Opinion: The source of the ‘Havana syndrome’ must be found. National security demands it.
(WP, Sep 28, 2021) The Post's view is that
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The opinion piece completely ignores that Pamela Spratlen and CIA's station chief in Vienna appear to have been removed because they were skeptical of the idea of an attack:
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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29th September 2021, 11:28 PM | #974 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Still no attackers and no weapons but more attacks:
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Havana Syndrome Attacks Widen With CIA Officer's Evacuation From Serbia (WSJ, Sep 28, 2021)
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Infected is a new development, but I suppose it was meant to say affected. From the same article:
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FTFY version:
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ETA: It occurs to me that with millions being asked to come forward, they must be pretty healthy specimens when only 200 have been found so far! |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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30th September 2021, 12:24 AM | #975 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Quote:
What the FBI failed to find was evidence of a sonic attack, which is what they went to Havana to find but didn't:
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The whole investigation could have ended then and there, as could the 'Havana Syndrome' if the CIA weren't so determined to deny that their secret agents are as susceptible to mass hysteria as ordinary school girls are. They would rather spread the 'syndrome' to "millions of military service members, civilian officials, and contractors" in every corner of the Earth than admit to the truth, making themselves more and more ridiculous and evidently unreliable in the process. |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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30th September 2021, 01:14 AM | #976 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Quote:
Bartholomew calls the U.S. State Department's alert to diplomats and intelligence officers all over the world "a global experiment in mass suggestion." |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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1st October 2021, 04:11 AM | #977 |
Penultimate Amazing
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My transcription of three minutes of the interview with Dr Robert Bartholomew.
It begins with a recording of Marc Polymeroupoulos, the former "acting chief of clandestine operations in Europe and Eurasia" and the most outspoken of the CIA operatives and diplomats with the alleged syndrome. He claims that he was the target of a Havana-Syndrome-style attack in Moscow in December 2017:
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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1st October 2021, 04:47 AM | #978 |
Penultimate Amazing
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And just in case everybody hasn't heard it yet: Officials still at risk of ‘Havana syndrome’ (The Iola Register, Sep 30, 2021)
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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1st October 2021, 06:15 AM | #979 |
Penultimate Amazing
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New article by Robert Baloh, one of the two authors of the so-far only book about the alleged attacks (the other author is Robert Bartholomew):
Havana Syndrome: Mass Psychogenic Illness and the Real Story Behind the Embassy Mystery and Hysteria
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I have mentioned this a couple of times, but it can't be repeated enough:
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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1st October 2021, 11:56 AM | #980 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Crickets! Nothing But Crickets!
BuzzFeed News has delivered excellent investigative journalism since the reports about the 'Havana Syndrome' began to appear. This new article is no exception.
Notice that this is a separate study, and not the study by the two independent academics who analyzed the AP recording of the alleged sonic attack in Havana and concluded that it was the sound of "lovelorn crickets". The JASON team "was given eight recordings of incidents linked to injuries." Notice also that "the panel’s findings were never made public or provided to the NAS."
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This should put an end to the idea that diplomats and CIA agents were the victims of attacks. And it should have put an end to it in November 2018 when the report was completed. That it didn't then and that it won't now is obviously because it doesn't comply with the policies of the State Department and the CIA. It didn't in 2018 under Trump, and it doesn't in 2021 under Biden. |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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2nd October 2021, 12:53 AM | #981 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
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The JASON report in other media:
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This attempt to save the idea that spies and diplomats were attacked is hilarious:
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1) It is from 2018 and about the cases in Havana, not about the cases "around the world". 2) It doesn't say that the crickets made anybody sick. This title also gets it wrong: Crickets named as cause of mysterious 'Havana syndrome' (The Independent, Oct 1, 2021) Crickets made the sound. They didn't make anybody sick. According to Wikipedia, the recent State Department decision to call on U.S. personnel all over the world to report symptoms of the alleged attacks has been very successful, making the number of cases rise from 130 four months ago to now more than 200, not including the most recent ones:
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It is worth remembering that the mating calls of crickets had nothing to do with this. The new cases were all due to the calls from the State Department. |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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2nd October 2021, 04:20 AM | #982 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
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Business Insider has also picked up the story:
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RT's title is exaggerated. The 'Havana Syndrome' may be a delusion, but it is not a psychosis.
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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2nd October 2021, 10:44 AM | #983 |
Penultimate Amazing
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The BuzzFeed News article about the JASON report mentioned in post 980 has not gone unnoticed in Cuba:
Como no hubo ataque sónico, no podrá existir evidencia (+Video) (Granma.cu, Oct 1, 2021) |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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2nd October 2021, 10:54 AM | #984 |
Penultimate Amazing
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A new article in Washington Times focuses on how the Obama administration is handling the 'syndrome':
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So the CIA prevents researchers from getting all the data (for security reasons, of course) and talking to all the alleged victims of the 'Havana Syndrome', and the researchers are then criticized for their lack of "broad access to information"! And since the State Department doesn't like the conclusions of the report, a new one is commissioned, and then another one, and another one, this time leaving it to the 'intelligence community' itself because it has access to the information that it won't allow any others to see. In other words, the CIA will be allowed to produce a report the 'incidents' that it mishandled spectacularly with the conclusions that both the State Department and the agency itself desire while everybody skeptical of this procedure is being removed from the playing field. That is how it was done under Trump, and that is how it is done under Biden:
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Yes, it is obvious that Mr. Schiff is open to the possibility that 'Havana Syndrome' is not a result of targeted attacks. In order to make this perfectly clear, he calls them attacks and wonders aloud about the intent behind those alleged attacks ... |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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3rd October 2021, 02:26 AM | #985 |
Penultimate Amazing
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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3rd October 2021, 02:52 AM | #986 |
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Obviously it is immensely useful to have a casus belli immediately available. This is ideal, it can be pointed at anyone* the intelligence community or politicians want. They may have moved on from blaming Cuba, but noticeably the actions taken as a response to Cuban attacks have not been reversed. My guess is that it may be pointed at China next, or possibly Iran.
Since the WMD justification for the second iraq war has shown that no real evidence is required to justify a war, the lack of real evidence here is not relevant. Unlike the WMD justification this has the advantage that Americans have been attacked and harmed. *Probably has to be a nation state with some infrastructure, it would be a stretch to believe some multinational criminal / terrorist organisation like SPECTRE** could come up with this sort of technology. **It would seem tailor made for an 007 mission though, SPECTRE have a mysterious energy ray they are using to disable intelligence operatives across the globe, and an 00 action is authorised. |
3rd October 2021, 04:43 AM | #987 |
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I don't think so. The suspicions seem to be almost exclusively focussed on Russia, which makes me wonder why this sophisticated, discrete weapon was never used against other enemies of the (Russian) state: 6 Prominent Russians Who Suffered Poisoning Attacks (Moscow Times, Aug 20, 2020) There are now more than 200 U.S. victims of the alleged attacks, and yet no traces have been found of weapons or a perpetrators. The Russians usually leave plenty of traces behind. I think the 'Havana Syndrome' story gives Putin too much credit for having committed the perfect crime. |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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3rd October 2021, 07:07 AM | #988 | |||
Penultimate Amazing
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Another Cuban newspaper, Juventud Rebelde - I think it is the second-largest after Granma - has a new article about the 'syndrome': El síndrome del absurdo (Oct 2, 2021)
It is pretty long, but I have picked some of the most 'colorful' paragraphs. The translation is by Google:
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It makes you wonder why Americans have recorded nothing but crickets, doesn't it?! But apparently they have:
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The conclusion:
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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5th October 2021, 02:50 AM | #989 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I overlooked this one:
You don't need a conspiracy for that. All it takes is that the government makes some kind of claim - preferably, but not necessarily, based on a quasi scientific study. Most journalists will simply repeat whatever the government claims. It is the easiest thing to do, and you know that the government won't bother you if you do that. You can write an article in ten minutes based on the government's press release if you don't do any fact-checking. And the majority of journalists don't. It is not even a question of journalists being lazy. Most of them probably don't get paid for doing any research and investigation. Getting paid for independent investigative reporting is a privilege. I think that it is very fulfilling on an emotional and intellectual level, but I don't think you get rich doing it.
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I don't think anybody is claiming that they aren't sick or injured. The question is how they got sick and injured. See (and/or listen to) the interview with Robert Bartholomew (post 977) and the article by Robert Baloh (post 979). The symptoms of mass psychogenic illness are very real and not to be dismissed. And the people who claim to be looking for the cause of 'Havana Syndrome' are the ones causing it, at this point. |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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5th October 2021, 03:09 AM | #990 |
Penultimate Amazing
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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5th October 2021, 10:44 AM | #991 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,539
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It's uncanny!
May 26, 2021:
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Sep 28, 2021:
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It's almost as if the two things are ... dare I say it? ... connected! |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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6th October 2021, 07:48 AM | #992 |
Master Poster
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Posts: 2,688
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↓↓↓↓↓↓Super secret Russian sonic weapon↓↓↓↓↓↓
******' Putin! There is a not-surprising correlation between government agencies and media outlets on stories like this, Russian gate, Hunter's laptop being Russian disinformation etc. No story is outlandish enough for them to not promote when it comes to certain subjects, I blame it on "orange man bad syndrome." |
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"We have put together, I think, the most extensive and inclusive voter fraud organization in the history of American politics.” – Joe Biden October 24, 2020 |
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7th October 2021, 08:41 AM | #993 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
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The more warnings the government sends to U.S. personnel, the more the number of 'attacks' seems to grow. What on Earth could be causing them?!
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Who is doing this, Figliuzzi?! You are!
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Some of us know with 99.999 percent certainty who done it, but this is literally one of those answers that these people don't want to know. Pentagon issues stark new warning about Havana Syndrome attacks as mystery drags on (Independent, Oct 6, 2021) This article offers some context to the 'Havana Syndrome' story:
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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7th October 2021, 02:38 PM | #994 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
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I forgot the link to the CNBC article in my post earlier today:
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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7th October 2021, 07:25 PM | #995 |
Penguilicious Spodmaster.
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Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables).
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Thanks for your posts on this, dann.
It's a good topic for a skeptics' forum. |
7th October 2021, 08:52 PM | #996 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 7,110
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Not to mention Novichok poisonings, Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, and the so-called Panama Papers.
But there's one striking difference in this case - a distinct lack of both claims and evidence that Russia is involved. It's almost like government agencies and media outlets only blame Russia for stuff it did do. |
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We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good. |
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8th October 2021, 12:17 AM | #997 |
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The Novichok poisoning: Poisoning of Sergei and Yulia Skripal (Wikipedia)
The most obvious difference between the 'Havana Syndrome' and the cases of Novichok poisoning is that in the latter you have both the weapon, i.e. the poison, and actual, real live suspects: Anatoly Chepiga, Alexander Mishkin and Denis Sergeev (Wikipedia). The Skripals were poisoned in 2018, i.e. while the alleged Havana Syndrome attacks had been going on since 2016; now, in 2021, with more than 200 victims and not a single microwave or actual suspect sighted. The professional Russian agents couldn't even get away with poisoning two people without being found out. Two victims versus more than 200 victims. And yet not a trace* of weapons or perpetrators behind the alleged attacks on those 200+ victims, who are presumably surrounded by security measures. As conspiracy theories go, this one has now taken on such proportions that this in itself is enough to make it ridiculous. And the CIA's inability to find any traces at all makes the agency look utterly incompetent. *That is unless you count the many cricket recordings as evidence! |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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8th October 2021, 01:25 AM | #998 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,539
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Quote:
I think that calling in the guy responsible for catching Bin Laden may have had an effect similar to calling in the medicine man in Singapore: 'This is serious!' CIA probe of 'Havana syndrome' to be led by Bin Laden search veteran (Reuters, July 21, 2021) |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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8th October 2021, 03:56 AM | #999 |
Philosopher
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Location: 49 North
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8th October 2021, 05:48 AM | #1000 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,539
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When CIA operatives were hunting for bin Laden, they managed to turn an awful lot of people into vaccine skeptics.
CIA organised fake vaccination drive to get Osama bin Laden's family DNA (The Guardian, July 11, 2021) CIA's hunt for Osama bin Laden Fuelled vaccine hesitancy in Pakistan (New Scientist, May 11, 2021) It almost feels like some sort of poetic justice that their attempts to track down the mysterious microwave shooter have now made them the victims of their own delusions, while at the same time delusional Republicans see it as their patriotic duty to spread an infectious disease to their compatriots. An awful lot of collateral damage in both cases. |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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