Problems With Magnetic Reconnection

And this is why thousands of people more intelligent and more rational than EU proponents are gainfully employed in teaching, research, experimentation, and application of the relevant physics, and all what... fourteen?... EU proponents have nothing to offer the world of science but a bunch of babbling on the Internet. Funny how that handful of alleged EU geniuses, even with their total combined knowledge, don't have what it takes to get themselves into the profession where they might be able to move the world of physics back a couple of decades the way they want to. Damn that conspiracy among real scientists to move science forward rather than backwards! :D

So where are we so far? Magnetic reconnection exists, demonstrably, experimentally in labs, empirically, on Earth, on the Sun, in real life, mathematically, and physically. No actual problems with it have been presented here in a scientific, objective, quantitative way. And that brings us to this...

Other than complaining about the name, just what are the problems with magnetic reconnection?

IMO this is pretty much 'classic' denial. I've pointed out to you more than a dozen times now that 'circuit reconnection' does happen, it's driven by "charge separation' and "discharge" processes, all of which are utterly ignored and not accounted for in MR experiments.

It's really amusing that the supportive "experiments" begin (and end) with charge separation and cathodes yet you're intentionally and willfully writing off a circuit oriented approach *without* ever reading or commenting negatively on any of Alfven's circuit oriented papers. You're still in hard core denial AFAIK to the *HISTORICAL FACT* that Alfven utterly and completely rejected your pet theory.

Yep, pretty much classic denial, propped up and held together by a pretty much classic use of personal attack in the absence of any rational scientific or historical argument.
 
It's clear even from the 'experiments" that are used to support MR theory that electricity is doing all the work, not "magnetism". Pull the plug on the electricity and the "reconnection" event is over. Coincidence? I think not.

Just a quick reply for now. This is incorrect. Magnetic reconnection can be demonstrated with simple fridge magnets - no external power needed. That invalidates this claim.
 
FYI most good "skeptics" of Christianity accurately quote from the Bible when discussing theistic topics with Christians.

The amusing part from my perspective is that 'skeptics' of Alfven's work have never read Cosmic Plasma, so their "quotes" aren't even from the proper holy book, or not accurate at least. It's like the lazy man's guide to debating the Nobel Prize winning physicist. :) If you ignore the utter sadness of the whole ignorance thing, it's actually pretty funny. Sorry, but that line isn't in the holy book, but thanks for playing!


The persistent dishonest misrepresentation of the position of actual scientists, physicists, and others knowledgeable on the issue of magnetic reconnection is noted. It doesn't fail as an argument. It doesn't even get that far. It fails to even be an argument. And as usual, the refusal to discuss magnetic reconnection objectively, quantitatively, and with reference to contemporary resources is also noted.
 
Nice try, but you are the one ignoring both physics & reality, not GM. The picture you show is a hollow tube, not a solid rod,

Yes, I know that. That is why it was crushed by the magnetic field when the discharge passed through it.


And that's exactly why it was a ridiculous response to this comment...

And nothing like a lightning bolt can happen in a copper rod either.


It was so ridiculous it wasn't a failed argument. It wasn't an argument at all. It looks like back-pedaling, a dishonest effort to justify an error rather than admit it.

And still no actual objective quantitative criticism of magnetic reconnection has been offered. It appears pretty certain that none is forthcoming. The proponents of the claim, the subject of this thread, that there are "problems with magnetic reconnection", have failed to demonstrate that there's any truth to the claim.
 
What is Circuit Reconnection?

So, the world wonders, what is "circuit reconnection"?

This is what I mean about you having the magnetic cart in front of the electric horse. The "current" is what drives the parade due to "charge separation" between various areas of the surface. The magnetic field acts to "pinch" the current into well defined "streams" of currents. When the current streams change directions, it's simply "current reconnection" or "circuit reconnection" (as it relates to circuit theory), but the magnetic field doesn't "do" anything other than to release itself "partially" into surrounding plasma, AKA *induction*.

What's the difference between "current" and current?
What's the difference between "charge separation" and charge separation?
What's the difference between "pinch" and pinch?
What's the difference between "streams" and streams?
What's the difference between "current reconnection" and current reconnection?
What's the difference between "circuit reconnection" and circuit reconnection?
What's the difference between "do" and do?
What's the difference between "partially" and partially?

You see, when normal people put words in quotation marks, they mean that whatever they are talking about looks like whatever the words in the quotation marks are, but differences are sufficient to differentiate between them. So, "current" is something that looks like a current, but is different enough from a real current that one must say "current" so as not to confuse the two. And so on for all the other phrases. Indeed, there are so many quotation marks liberally sprinkled around this paragraph that any reasonable person can be excused for coming away from it more confused than informed.

So we are not well informed and have to guess what the words "circuit reconnection" are supposed to mean. But we have a clue: ""circuit reconnection" (as it relates to circuit theory) ...". Now, let us keep in mind that the ultimate goal is a theory that is consistent with existing physical theory, as well as physics as we observe it to be, especially in laboratory or astrophysical plasmas. Let us also keep in mind that circuit theory is an engineering edifice built on the obvious fact that engineering electrical currents all flow through wires, and are invariably homogenous, as they consist of electrons and electrons only. On the other hand, currents flowing in plasma, whether laboratory or astrophysical in nature, are free to move in 3 dimensional space, constrained only by any imposed electromagnetic fields and the general laws of physics, and very often consist of mixtures of electrons, protons and heavy ions. So we must be prepared to apply circuit theory with great care, recognizing that in many cases, circuit theory simply cannot be applicable.

In my following comments I will ignore the quotation marks and interpret the words as if they were not there.

Now let us examine the argument from Mozina in more detail. We start this: "The "current" is what drives the parade due to "charge separation" between various areas of the surface." This can only mean that the charges are separated in the sense of a double layer, with the gap between plasma domains constituting the central region of the layer, positive charges along one surface, and negative charges along the other. But of course, the obvious question, what force separates the charges, remains unanswered. Aside from that, this description provided by Mozina makes no sense in the context of magnetic reconnection as it is observed in laboratory plasmas. That's because the double layer must accelerate plasma in the direction that separates the two oppositely charged surfaces, whereas in the experiments particle acceleration is observed exclusively perpendicular to that, in the direction that runs parallel to the oppositely charged surfaces. Of course, we must also note that the plasma properties are measured in laboratory experiments, and magnetic reconnection does take place in the complete absence of double layers. The presence and importance of double layers is greatly exaggerated by Mozina; not only are they not as common as he thinks, but they also lack the necessary potential energy to achieve observed kinetic energies (both of these points being made several times over the last year at least by tusenfem)

Now this: "The magnetic field acts to "pinch" the current into well defined "streams" of currents." Here Mozina maybe partly correct. Whether the magnetic field dominates the current, or the current dominates the magnetic field, depends on the conditions of the particular experiment. In the MRX device, for instance, a neutral gas is injected into the chamber and then ionized in the presence of a pre-existing magnetic field. So of course the currents that eventually flow in the ionized gas cannot be the cause of the magnetic field, but they can & will interact with the field. In most cases the energy density of the magnetic field is greater and it squeezes the current into a sheet (not a stream or "stream").

Now this: "When the current streams change directions, it's simply "current reconnection" or "circuit reconnection" (as it relates to circuit theory), ...". Right away we see that the words "current reconnection" and "circuit reconnection" are both physically undefined and enclosed in quotation marks, so their interpretation is quite slippery at best. This whole statement is fraught with error and certainly quite wrong, probably quite impossible altogether. For one thing, we are introduced to the parenthetical "as it relates to circuit theory", which certainly cannot be the case in any real physical detail. Current in a plasma cannot and will not act like currents in a wire. The physics of a plasma cannot be reasonably expected to act like the solid state physics of a wire, complete with conduction bands and Fermi energy levels. Furthermore, currents in any standard electric circuit are pushed along by electric fields imposed in the wire from outside (the voltage in the wire is a measure of the strength of the electric field). So at this point we should be very suspicious. All Mozina has actually done is push some words together in very general, nebulous, ill defined concepts, but that won't do. Very specific, physical descriptions and definitions need to be put forth because we know that there are very specific physical constraints that have been ignored to this point.

So what actually does happen in a plasma? For one thing, we know that the constraints produced by wires are certainly inoperative. Currents are free to move in 3 dimensions, constrained only by the electric & magnetic fields found in the plasma, some imposed from outside the plasma, some generated in the plasma by dynamo action. Currents in wires are strongly constrained to move in streams defined by the wires, but streams in the plasma are far less constrained. In fact, currents don't need to form in streams at all in a plasma and can take surprisingly complex shapes, including sheets, fans, and fragmented streams, constrained in size & shape only by the geometry of the electric & magnetic fields and the energies of the particles. As you might guess by now, the simplistic and very general concepts enshrined in Mozina's words are useless in the real world of real physics, where the possibilities are in fact too complicated to be presented in a forum like this, except in very general terms. And that's why we have plasma physics text books (e.g., Fundamentals of Plasma Physics by Paul Bellan, Cambridge University Press 2006 is a good one amongst many; in this case, Paul Bellan is the leader of the Bellan Plasma Group at the California Institute of Technology; amongst other things, they are very good at laboratory simulations of solar prominences). So if you really want to know what happens in plasma in detail, you need to consult a plasma physics text book, not Michael Mozina. And you need to realize that "circuit reconnection" or "current reconnection", as Mozina loosely describes it, simply does not happen. And I will have more to say about that too.

Meanwhile, let us finish the paragraph with this: " ... but the magnetic field doesn't "do" anything other than to release itself "partially" into surrounding plasma, AKA *induction*" This too happens to be quite wrong. We know, by virtue of direct observation in laboratory plasma that this is not what happens. What really happens is that the fast moving magnetic field does not move through the plasma, rather it moves with the plasma so that the relative velocity between the magnetic field and the plasma is zero. There can be no induction if there is no relative velocity between the plasma and the magnetic field. The plasma is quite frozen to the field, and that's how it gains so much energy so fast; the tension in the magnetic field pulls it far faster than it could ever move through the plasma, and since the energy density of the field is far larger than the energy density of the plasma, the field dominates the plasma and drags it along.

So dissecting Mozina's paragraph reveals two serious weaknesses. First, the language is entirely inappropriate. What we need is technical & scientific detail, but what we get is vague & hand-wavy language, couched in broad generalities and liberal use of quotation marks, so much so that we can't even be sure what the words are supposed to mean. It is simply, linguistically uninformative. The other problem is that, where we are able to establish some reasonable sense of what the words mean, we find that they are contrary to physics as we observe it to be. So aside from being linguistically uninformative, it is technically inaccurate. In short, where we can pin him down to specifics, Mozina is just plain wrong.

Now consider this ...

As for "circuit reconnection", you are conveniently ignoring the fact that I have already proven such things to be physically impossible.
As for "circuit reconnection", you are conveniently ignoring the fact that I have already proven such things to be physically impossible.
That is a fairy tale. Magnetic reconnection only happens when the electric currents are flowing in opposite directions. That means, in your "circuit reconnection" fantasy, the currents bash into each other head on. Head on. So why don't you describe the physics for us, how these two currents manage to merge into another current, gaining energy despite colliding head on. And if that's not enough, how about conservation of energy? How do you explain the final current carrying more energy than the sum of the energies of the input currents? Where does all that extra energy come from (ignoring for a moment the head on collision of the currents)?

Parallel magnetic field lines do not reconnect, but antiparallel magnetic field lines will, as will field lines intersecting at an angle.
In the case of antiparallel field lines, as one would encounter for instance, in flux tubes in the solar atmosphere, then currents of like charged particle (say electrons, as one would commonly expect) will slam into each other head on. Being of like charge they will repel each and rapidly generate an expanding cloud of electrons. The case of oppositely charged particles (electrons vs protons or ions) will be much the same, an expanding cloud of charged particles. But in this case it is not due to repulsion, but rather attraction; as the particles move too fast to recombine, they will sling shot past each other and form a similar spreading cloud. In neither case will the particles gain energy in the process (if anything, they must clearly lose energy), and certainly neither case will result in nicely collimated jets, as are in fact observed in the laboratory experiments.

It is obvious that circuit reconnection and/or particle reconnection are physically impossible processes. I invite Mozina to demonstrate that I am wrong, simply by describing the physics of the particles during the reconnection process, at a level equivalent to the level I have applied here.


And Mozina's reply to my invitation ...

You seem to be ignoring the fact that threads forms into 'tubes" that will indeed interact across a narrowly defined "double layer" that forms between them. The electron 'streams" simply follow a path of lesser resistance and the two circuits rewire themselves in the process. Again, it's not exactly a big 'mystery" when you look at the process from the standpoint of current and current flows.
{ ... }
All you have to imagine in solids is two wires that "short circuit" themselves for a second as we "rewire" the two circuits while they are still "hot". In fact we can extend the analogy by using a couple of welding rods and creating an "electricified double layer between the rod tips as we "rewire"' the circuits through the plasma particles first, and then finally touch the rod tips back to the "solid" parts of our wire. The rewiring process is a form of "circuit reconnection" and the electrons are the "current".

What's the difference between "tubes" and tubes?
What's the difference between "double layer" and double layer?
What's the difference between "streams" and streams?
What's the difference between "mystery" and mystery?
What's the difference between "short circuit" and short circuit?
What's the difference between "rewire" and rewire?
What's the difference between "hot" and hot?
What's the difference between "electrified double layer" and electrified double layer?
What's the difference between "solid" and solid?
What's the difference between "circuit reconnection" and circuit reconnection?
What's the difference between "current" and current?

Anybody see a common pattern unfolding? One might be excused for thinking Mozina gets royalties each time he uses quotation marks. Again, the key terms are set off in quotation marks to make sure we don't accidently think Mozina is talking about something he looks like he is trying to talk about.

Now, I specifically said, "at a level equivalent to the level I have applied here". I also said, "So why don't you describe the physics for us, how these two currents manage to merge into another current, gaining energy despite colliding head on." Did anybody see Mozina address the real physical issue of currents colliding head on in free space (not in wires)? Maybe I missed it. In fact, reading Mozina's response, I can't see that it really relates to the points I was making anyway. How does circuit reconnection in free space not violate the law of conservation of energy, by endowing currents with more energy after they interact than they had before? I don't see any answer to that either. And what's all this talk of an "electrified double layer" between welding tips? Last time I checked, the arc of current flowing between the tips of a welder was a far cry from any kind of double layer.

Throughout the entire conversation, from one end of this thread to the other, Mozina insists that he knows more than everybody else in sight, that no living person knows more about plasma physics than he does. And yet all we get from him is word salad, vague & hand-wavy arguments laced with quotation marks and mistakes that would embarrass high school students.

The fact is that circuit reconnection or particle reconnection or current reconnection, which ever term Mozina favors today, is physically impossible. It cannot happen and it does not happen and it never will happen in plasma physics. And to that assertion Mozina has no science based argument to present. That's why this thread, like his others, simply goes on in interminable repetition, an infinite loop, as programmers like to say. So the thread goes ever on, out from the door where it began ...
 
Electrical Discharge

Discharges as GM chooses to define them, consistent with standard usage, ...
You're talking about a *VERY SPECIFIC* kind of "electrical discharge", ...
Of course I am. I know that and so does everyone else. That's the whole point!! You are the one who has insisted non-stop that your one pet definition for "electrical discharge" is the one and only definition, and I have been trying to get it through your thick skull that there are numerous different perfectly acceptable definitions. I am glad you finally came around to accept the obvious.

Now look at what I said a bit more carefully ...

"Discharges as GM chooses to define them" clearly indicates a very specific kind of discharge, in particular that defined by GM. If his definition bugs you, complain to him, not me.

"Consistent with standard usage, ..." is clear enough. Maybe you are too lazy to use google? See the page for electric spark: "An electric spark is a type of electrostatic discharge that occurs when a large electric field creates an ionized conductive channel in air producing a brief emission of light and air. A spark is formed when the electric field strength exceeds the dielectric field strength in air." That's the process that ordinary people, and ordinary physicists, ordinarily mean when they use the unadorned phrase "electrical discharge". If they mean something else, then they say so explicitly. That's why Peratt stated his definition explicitly, because he knew that if he used the words but did not specify the definition he had in mind, he would be misunderstood. This is in fact the way the words are used throughout the electronics and electrical engineering disciplines, in the absence of indications to the contrary.

I have already said that given your definition of "electrical discharge", as nothing more than an impulsive energy release, then of course "electrical discharges" happen in a plasma because impulsive energy release happens in a plasma. But so what? Your definition is so general that it does not differentiate between the various causes of impulsive energy release. So the dumbing down is being done by you, not me, dumbing down the definition of "electrical discharge" to something totally useless in any scientific sense.

This is just one more clear indication of what I have said already several times. It's all just some semantic word game that serves no purpose except to distract discussion from the real issue: What is physically happening?" Your chosen definition for "electrical discharge" cannot rule any physical process, magnetic reconnection included, either in or out, so what possible use can it be to argue over it?
 
Just a quick reply for now. This is incorrect. Magnetic reconnection can be demonstrated with simple fridge magnets - no external power needed. That invalidates this claim.

No, magnetic attraction and repulsion can be demonstrated with simple fridge magnets. Let's see you create gamma rays with a couple of fridge magnets. That's something we observe in flare and in "discharges' in the Earth's atmosphere. It takes electricity to pull off that trick, not just a couple of fridge magnets.
 
And that's exactly why it was a ridiculous response to this comment...

It was so ridiculous it wasn't a failed argument. It wasn't an argument at all. It looks like back-pedaling, a dishonest effort to justify an error rather than admit it.

It's not my personal fault that you're in hard core pure denial of a GENERAL DEFINITION of an electrical discharge inside of a plasma, one that happens to be perfectly consistent with Dungey's use of the term. It's irrational to blame anyone but yourself for your *OWN* confusion at this point, except of course the "enablers" around here that refuse to set you straight.

An "electrical discharge" is a sudden release of stored EM energy. It can occur through a copper tube, and thereby the tube is crushed by the magnetic field that forms around the copper tubing. It can occur through *ANY* sort of "conductor". A "discharge" is not the act of ionizing gases into plasmas. That "can" happen in some cases but it's the "release of stored EM energy" that makes it an 'electrical discharge', not the fact that elements are ionized! You're ignoring physics entirely!

Pure denial is really an ugly thing. You're not fooling anyone else here, just yourself.

And still no actual objective quantitative criticism of magnetic reconnection has been offered.

That is entirely due to the fact that I've never complained about your math, just your lack of understanding of the physical processes at work. A

The "proof" IMO that MR theory is in fact "pseudoscience" as Alfven stated, is demonstrated in the "experiments" themselves. Many of them *begin* inside of a "discharge chamber". The 'magnetic lines" they created are created with "cathodes" and 'current flow', and the topology change is a topology change in the current flow over time. The whole thing is driven by the "electrical current', not the magnetic line. The so called "magnet line' is nothing more than an ordinary plasma filament that is created by the charge separation, and the current running through the thread. There's nothing "mystical" about a topology change in current flow over time, and it has nothing to do with magnetic lines disconnecting from or reconnecting to other magnetic lines. It's directly related to the flow of current.
 
Of course I am. I know that and so does everyone else. That's the whole point!! You are the one who has insisted non-stop that your one pet definition for "electrical discharge" is the one and only definition, and I have been trying to get it through your thick skull that there are numerous different perfectly acceptable definitions. I am glad you finally came around to accept the obvious.

No, evidently RC and GM are still in hard core denial of the obvious, specifically that electrical discharges happen in plasma, something you have already *AGREED* happens! Sheesh. This is bizarre.

Now look at what I said a bit more carefully ...

"Discharges as GM chooses to define them" clearly indicates a very specific kind of discharge, in particular that defined by GM. If his definition bugs you, complain to him, not me.

Stop supporting his definition then Tim, particular as it relates to discharges in a *PLASMA*! For goodness sake. You and tusenfem are "enablers" at this point because you are allowing RC and GM to get away with *MURDER* as it relates to this topic. Both of them "pulled a definition of an electrical discharge out of their back pocket.". When I confront them or you on this issue, no published definition is forthcoming. Both of them are trying to claim the electrical discharges are impossible in plasma, and neither one of you have set them straight. Why not?

"Consistent with standard usage, ..." is clear enough. Maybe you are too lazy to use google? See the page for electric spark: "An electric spark is a type of electrostatic discharge that occurs when a large electric field creates an ionized conductive channel in air producing a brief emission of light and air.[/ A spark is formed when the electric field strength exceeds the dielectric field strength in air." That's the process that ordinary people, and ordinary physicists, ordinarily mean when they use the unadorned phrase "electrical discharge".

No, that is an "electric spark", not simply an "electrical discharge.". I can "charge" a battery. I can "discharge" a battery. None of that electrical charging or discharging of the battery *NECESSARILY* needs to involve a "spark". The "ionization/spark" spark process is *OPTIONAL*. This is essentially nothing more than an oversimplification fallacy. By attempting to constrain the term to *REQUIRE* an ionization of gasses process, GM and RC are attempting to avoid reality. Discharges happen in plasmas Tim. Deal with it and help them deal with it! Don't just bitch about the scientific mistakes *I* make. How about using some of that "wisdom" to explain to your cohorts that electrical discharges and do occur in plasmas? How about acknowledging that many of your 'experiments' in MR begin and and inside of a "discharge chamber"?

I have already said that given your definition of "electrical discharge", as nothing more than an impulsive energy release, then of course "electrical discharges" happen in a plasma because impulsive energy release happens in a plasma. But so what? Your definition is so general that it does not differentiate between the various causes of impulsive energy release. So the dumbing down is being done by you, not me, dumbing down the definition of "electrical discharge" to something totally useless in any scientific sense.

We'll discuss the 'causes' as it relates to some of your "experiments" next Tim, starting with 'discharge chamber" experiments that begin with cathodes and charge separation.

This is just one more clear indication of what I have said already several times. It's all just some semantic word game that serves no purpose except to distract discussion from the real issue: What is physically happening?"

Boloney Tim. Electrical discharges happen 'naturally' around every single large body in the solar system with an atmosphere and a magnetic field and the sun has both more abundantly than any other body in the system. Discharges are directly and empirically shown to create high ionization states in iron. They are known to emit xrays and gamma rays and heat plasma to millions of degrees, all the key high energy processes we observe in solar flares. You're essentially IMO attempting to ignore the discharge process, but you're going to need that process if you ever expect to associate "reconnection" with gamma rays.

Your chosen definition for "electrical discharge" cannot rule any physical process, magnetic reconnection included, either in or out, so what possible use can it be to argue over it?

First things first. First we have to all agree that discharges can and do occur in plasmas. Then we can look at those 'experiments' you cited to see which came first, the charge separation and current or the "magnetic line".
 
wow we just took a one year step back, were at that stupid D word discussion again

Gotta love this though:

First things first. First we have to all agree that discharges can and do occur in plasmas. Then we can look at those 'experiments' you cited to see which came first, the charge separation and current or the "magnetic line".

So, we can only continue this discussoin when we all agree with Prof. Dr. M. Mozina PhD, expert on anything electrical or alfvenic or birkenlandish, who cannot even show a controlled laboratory experiment to show that his paper Observational confirmation of the Sun's CNO cycle can actually happen. I think the whole CNO cycle is just a figment of MM's imagination.
 
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Why did this experiment not detect and report your 'current reconnection'

Ah, a current sheet, AKA a "double layer" formed, and discharges flowed through the double layer. Another nail in the coffin of MR theory according to Alfven.
Ah, more ignorance from Michael Mozina:
  1. A current sheet is not a double layer.
  2. No discharges are mentioned.
  3. In magnetic reconnection experiments, the reconnection is measured and then the changes in currents (current disruption) happens.
    See michaelsuede: Why are no DLs detected in MR experiments until after reconnection?
Another coffin in the knowledge of Michael Mozina.

You ignored the question:
Resistivity and Energy Flow in a Plasma Undergoing Magnetic-Field-Line Reconnection (1980)
Why did this experiment not detect and report your 'current reconnection'?
Why do they still call it magnetic reconnection?

And you ignored the whole point of the post. Here are magnetic reconnection experiments that fire lasers at targets to create the plasma in such a configuration that magnetic reconnection happens without any of your "electricity":
 
Yes, I know that. That is why it was crushed by the magnetic field when the discharge passed through it....
The point is you not being able to understand the post you replied to
Originally Posted by GeeMack
And nothing like a lightning bolt can happen in a copper rod either.

Can you understand that the sentence is about
  • lightning happening inside a copper rod.
Can you understand that wikiimage is of
  • A hollow lightning conductor crushed by lightning happing outside of the rod.
 
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No, evidently RC and GM are still in hard core denial of the obvious, specifically that electrical discharges happen in plasma, something you have already *AGREED* happens! Sheesh. This is bizarre.
No, you are still lying, Michael Mozina.
I have have always acknowledged the obvious.
The obvious is that the usual definition of electrical discharge as in sparks and lightning cannot happen in plasma.
The obvious is that some authors in some papers have used the term electrical discharge to mean a high current density, e.g. Dungay.
The obvious is that it is stupid to cherry pick Peratt's definition when he give examples such as lightning and no examples of actual discharges in plasma.
The obvious is that your personal definition of electrical discharge as a sudden release of magnetic or electrical energy is physically useless because it encompases every possible physical process that does this, e.g. atoms emitting light.
 
It's not my personal fault that you're in hard core pure denial of a GENERAL DEFINITION of an electrical discharge inside of a plasma, one that happens to be perfectly consistent with Dungey's use of the term.


The general definition of electrical discharge when discussing or comparing things to lightning here on Earth and the sparks in a toy plasma ball, is the sudden and momentary electrical current that flows between two regions with different electrical potentials, two regions that were separated by a dielectric medium until such a time as the insulating properties of that medium break down and allow for the passage of the current. That type of electrical discharge cannot happen in a conducting medium like a copper rod or plasma. It is a matter of relatively simple physics. So it would be foolish, and in fact contrary to reality to suggest that solar flares and CMEs are in any way analogous to an electrical discharge of that type.

It's irrational to blame anyone but yourself for your *OWN* confusion at this point, except of course the "enablers" around here that refuse to set you straight.


I'm not the least bit confused on the issue, so I'm not blaming anyone. Perhaps interestingly, but certainly not surprisingly, even the professional physicists around here seem to be in pretty complete agreement with my understanding.

An "electrical discharge" is a sudden release of stored EM energy. It can occur through a copper tube, and thereby the tube is crushed by the magnetic field that forms around the copper tubing. It can occur through *ANY* sort of "conductor". A "discharge" is not the act of ionizing gases into plasmas. That "can" happen in some cases but it's the "release of stored EM energy" that makes it an 'electrical discharge', not the fact that elements are ionized! You're ignoring physics entirely!


That is a ridiculous description of an electrical discharge. It sounds like gibberish, a handful of sciency sounding words strung together. It has nothing to do with an electrical discharge like lightning or sparks in a toy plasma ball. It also has no connection with any version of the term electrical discharge as used even loosely and/or somewhat erroneously by Dungey or Peratt. It isn't even a failed argument, since it isn't an argument at all. It's nonsense.

Pure denial is really an ugly thing. You're not fooling anyone else here, just yourself.


The personal attack, wholly devoid of any attempt to support the claim that there are problems withe the physics of magnetic reconnection is noted.

That is entirely due to the fact that I've never complained about your math, just your lack of understanding of the physical processes at work. A


Yes, the math that describes the physics of magnetic reconnection is good, because magnetic reconnection exists as regularly and empirically demonstrated by contemporary physics research. Tim has listed a handful of references on the topic.

The "proof" IMO that MR theory is in fact "pseudoscience" as Alfven stated, is demonstrated in the "experiments" themselves. Many of them *begin* inside of a "discharge chamber". The 'magnetic lines" they created are created with "cathodes" and 'current flow', and the topology change is a topology change in the current flow over time. The whole thing is driven by the "electrical current', not the magnetic line. The so called "magnet line' is nothing more than an ordinary plasma filament that is created by the charge separation, and the current running through the thread. There's nothing "mystical" about a topology change in current flow over time, and it has nothing to do with magnetic lines disconnecting from or reconnecting to other magnetic lines. It's directly related to the flow of current. another paragraph of gibberish with pleas to Alfvén's alleged authority and a bunch of sciency sounding words strung together in a haphazard and nonsensical way.


There, fixed.
 
No, you are still lying, Michael Mozina.

How come you get to get away with a lack of civility in every single post, all the while in pure denial of physics?

I have have always acknowledged the obvious.
The obvious is that the usual definition of electrical discharge as in sparks and lightning cannot happen in plasma.

The term "usual" relates only to how you personally "usually" define it, certainly not how Dungey defined it. He claimed that electrical discharges happened in plasmas, and you keep denying this scientific fact.

The obvious is that some authors in some papers have used the term electrical discharge to mean a high current density, e.g. Dungay.

This is your own BS RC. Dungey specifically related an electrical discharge to a time limited "flare" process that requires a *release of stored energy*. You're still in pure denial of scientific fact!

The obvious is that it is stupid to cherry pick Peratt's definition when he give examples such as lightning and no examples of actual discharges in plasma.

It is an example of discharge in a plasma, as are all fast releases of stored EM energy. You're the one "cherry picking" a dumbed down definition of your own choosing. Your the one engaging in an oversimplification fallacy of truly *EPIC* proportions!

Where are Peratt's many pages of the physics and mathematics of electrical discharges within plasma?

Why don't you do something useful and read his book and find out? I'm not your science mommy. I provided you with a perfectly good verbal definition of the process and you conceptually refuse to accept it. What's the point?

The obvious is that your personal definition of electrical discharge as a sudden release of magnetic or electrical energy is physically useless because it encompases every possible physical process that does this, e.g. atoms emitting light.

This is a lie. It's not useless. We can now equate that flare event to a "Discharge", and we can now understand why iron is ionized to such high states, and why xrays and gamma rays are released in the process. The only thing that *SHOULD* be in debate, is which came first, the "discharge" or the "reconnection" process.

The more you drag your pitiful feet here, the more you make yourself looks silly RC. You blew it when you believed GM's nonsense about discharges and plasma, and you're still stuck in pure denial. A 'discharge' in a flare is very much the same process as a "discharge" in the Earth's atmosphere, gamma rays and all.
 
The point is you not being able to understand the post you replied to


Can you understand that the sentence is about
  • lightning happening inside a copper rod.
Can you understand that wikiimage is of
  • A hollow lightning conductor crushed by lightning happing outside of the rod.


RC, what has become painfully apparent to me is that you simply do not understand physics, you refuse to understand physics and you insist on putting the magnetic cart in front of the electric horse.

What's most amusing is the fact that many of the "experiments" you've all cited to support this idea *BEGIN WITH A CATHODE*. The *ELECTRIC HORSE* does the work. Your "magnetic line" is a "dumbed down" math formula that specifically ignores the E components entirely, even though your 'experiments" begin and end with E and electricity.
 
The general definition of electrical discharge when discussing or comparing things to lightning here on Earth and the sparks in a toy plasma ball, is the sudden and momentary electrical current that flows between two regions with different electrical potentials,

And had you read Alfven's work or commented on it, you'd know that's how his million degree coronal loop process works too. Ignorance isn't bliss. You're ignoring the electrical potential that drives the process. More telling IMO is that those items that you crossed out of my response are direct evidence of pure denial on your part. What you cannot deal with and what you refuse to deal with, you simply ignore or "cross out".
 
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wow we just took a one year step back, were at that stupid D word discussion again

Ya, D for DENIAL in a huge way. You won't deal with it, GM won't deal with it, RC won't deal with it, and Tim is doing a hat dance around it. You boys have a *BIG*, and I mean *HUGE* problem. You *NEED* an electrical discharge to explain those GAMMA rays and those XRAYS and those high iron ionization states. There's no *OTHER* way to produce them in a lab in plasma like that. Even your own "experiments" begin and end in a "discharge chamber" and they REQUIRED CATHODES! For crying out loud!

So, we can only continue this discussoin when we all agree with Prof. Dr. M. Mozina PhD, expert on anything electrical or alfvenic or birkenlandish, who cannot even show a controlled laboratory experiment to show that his paper

Of course if I blatantly hijacked the thread like that I'd personally have my post removed and be given a warning or maybe even a week off.
 
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I'm headed to the High School to watch my daughter perform in a play tonight. The disco discharge denial dance can wait till tomorrow.
 

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