Split Thread Describing the universe

brantc

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Unfortunately, I have no doubt that within the next day or so, someone will be posting on the JREF Forum claiming that this image proves, once and for all, that (select all that apply)
- the speed of light has been decreasing over time
- the big bang never happened
- there was no inflation
- general relativity is wrong
- special relativity is wrong
- there is no such thing as dark matter
- there is no such thing as dark energy
- redshift is not due to the Doppler effect
- Earth is at a 'special' location in the universe
- stars are powered by electric currents
- galaxies are held together by magnetic fields
- GRB sources are within our galaxy
- life on Earth originated elsewhere
- the rest of the universe is uninhabited
- the universe was tailored for life by an external intelligence

Wow, you sure have a narrow humanistic view of the universe.

Any of those things could be proven wrong(or right) at anytime.

The Big Bangers think the earth is at a special location in the universe. Except for the ones that think space is expanding onto into around below above itself.

So do believe in QM gravitons, or Relativity's bent space, model of gravity??

Posted By: Gaspode
 
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The Big Bangers think the earth is at a special location in the universe. Except for the ones that think space is expanding onto into around below above itself.
Totally wrong.
  • The Big Bang theory includes the premise that the Earth is not at a special location in the universe. This is the cosmological principle.
  • No "Big Banger" thinks that space is expanding into anything "around below above itself".
    The universe is not expanding into anything. By definition the universe is everything.
 
Wow, you sure have a narrow humanistic view of the universe.
I'm sorry, weren't you the one just claiming that the whole of physics should be understandable based on experiments that can be performed in the lab?

Any of those things could be proven wrong(or right) at anytime.
No, some of them have already been proven wrong.

The Big Bangers think the earth is at a special location in the universe.
In this respect, you could not possibly be more wrong.

Except for the ones that think space is expanding onto into around below above itself.
Pardon?

So do believe in QM gravitons, or Relativity's bent space, model of gravity??
Pardon?
 
Wow, you sure have a narrow humanistic view of the universe.

You're getting that from my expectation that someone would interpret a picture to support a non-mainstream phyiscal theory?

Any of those things could be proven wrong(or right) at anytime.

But not by that picture.

The Big Bangers think the earth is at a special location in the universe. Except for the ones that think space is expanding onto into around below above itself.

I disagree, of course. RC already responded, and I can't improve on that response.

So do believe in QM gravitons, or Relativity's bent space, model of gravity??

<shrug>That's actually a fairly deep philosophical question. To put it as succinctly as possible, I believe that the standard models of QM, relativity and gravity provide predictions that match extremely well with experimental evidence. I don't know if there is some underlying reality that would explain why the universe acts in the manner that it does, so I don't know that I believe that Relativity (for instance) represents some ultimate description of the nature of the universe or is just a handy mathematical approximation.
But if it's just a handy approximation, then it's a very good approximation.

On the specific issue of gravitons, I haven't dug into it enough to have a strong feeling about them.
 
Totally wrong.
  • The Big Bang theory includes the premise that the Earth is not at a special location in the universe. This is the cosmological principle.
  • No "Big Banger" thinks that space is expanding into anything "around below above itself".
    The universe is not expanding into anything. By definition the universe is everything.


LOL You can define the universe anyway you want but does that reflect reality?
So if everything is expanding where does the extra space come from?
And is the universe growing (more matter or more space) which would mean it is growing into something where there is not universe.....

Since there is no center(or we are not at the center) what was the big bang?

Dont answer that. I dont want to get off track.:)
 
LOL You can define the universe anyway you want but does that reflect reality?
So if everything is expanding where does the extra space come from?
If everything is growing older, where does the extra time come from?

And is the universe growing (more matter or more space) which would mean it is growing into something where there is not universe.....
No it wouldn't. It's not growing in to anything in any meaningful sense of the word.

Since there is no center(or we are not at the center) what was the big bang?
Where is the centre of the surface of a balloon?
 
If everything is growing older, where does the extra time come from?
So your saying space(time) is infinite and matter is expanding(growing older) into it??

No it wouldn't. It's not growing in to anything in any meaningful sense of the word.

Where is the centre of the surface of a balloon?

"in any meaningful sense of the word." Thats code for "it doesnt match with reality".

A sphere, a sphere, a balloon is a sphere. The surface stretches as well as moves from the center of the sphere.

So the big bang is a shock wave and we live on the shock front??

That still implies there was a center at some point in time.

As far as I can tell the only physical analogy that works is a flat, static universe.
 
A sphere, a sphere, a balloon is a sphere. The surface stretches as well as moves from the center of the sphere.

A sphere, a sphere, a balloon is a sphere. The surface stretches as well as moves from the center of the sphere.

So the big bang is a shock wave and we live on the shock front??

That still implies there was a center at some point in time.

As far as I can tell the only physical analogy that works is a flat, static universe.
It is not emphasized enough in descriptions of the balloon model that there is only the surface of the balloon and nothing else.
  • The balloon does not include any points outside of the surface.
  • The balloon does not include any points inside the surface.
  • It especially does not include the center point.
The best way to look at it is to visualize that you were an inhabitant of the balloon surface and only that surface existed. The mathematical term for the balloon is a 2-sphere.

And yes - the balloon surface does stretch and points on it move away from the center.

The big bang is a 4-D (space-time) "shock wave" and we live on the shock front.

This still means that mathematically there is no center of the shock wave at any point in time, except possibly at t=0 if you assume that the volume of the universe is zero and ignore the singularity that this produces.

A flat, static universe is not a physical analogy. It is a model of the universe that is not supported by observation.
 
So your saying space(time) is infinite and matter is expanding(growing older) into it??
No. You wanted to know where the extra space came from. I'm not sure that's a meaningful question any more than "the Universe is growing older, where did the extra time come from?"

"in any meaningful sense of the word." Thats code for "it doesnt match with reality".
Its absolutely nothing of the sort. It's roughly code for: "you're intuition is failing you". I don't mean this as an insult. Intuition is what you believe to be common sense based on your every day experiences. But since your everyday experiences don't deal with expanding spacetime, its unsurprising that your intuition fails you. Mine fails me regularly when I read about quantum mechanics.

A sphere, a sphere, a balloon is a sphere. The surface stretches as well as moves from the center of the sphere.
Yes, but I asked where the centre of the surface was.

So the big bang is a shock wave and we live on the shock front??
No.

That still implies there was a center at some point in time.
Ok, with an inflated baloon mark on a set of co-ordinates like longitude and latitude. Now, let the baloon deflate. What are the co-ordinates of the centre?

As far as I can tell the only physical analogy that works is a flat, static universe.
How is that an analogy? And how on Earth does it work? How does it not collapse on itself? And how does it not violate at least one of the first or second laws of thermodynamics.
 
So your saying space(time) is infinite and matter is expanding(growing older) into it??



"in any meaningful sense of the word." Thats code for "it doesnt match with reality".

A sphere, a sphere, a balloon is a sphere. The surface stretches as well as moves from the center of the sphere.

So the big bang is a shock wave and we live on the shock front??

That still implies there was a center at some point in time.

As far as I can tell the only physical analogy that works is a flat, static universe.

Wrong,wrong,wrong.Think of the universe as the three dimensional surface of a four dimensional sphere.The centre of the balloon has no part in the analogy.You have missed the point by several country miles. Time and space were created in the big bang.The centre of the big bang is everywhere in the universe.Not that I expect you to understand this,but I thought I'd give it a go.
 
No. You wanted to know where the extra space came from. I'm not sure that's a meaningful question any more than "the Universe is growing older, where did the extra time come from?"

Time does not exist. If there were no processes(life, universe, chemical reations etc.) you would not have to measure time.

Its absolutely nothing of the sort. It's roughly code for: "you're intuition is failing you". I don't mean this as an insult. Intuition is what you believe to be common sense based on your every day experiences. But since your everyday experiences don't deal with expanding spacetime, its unsurprising that your intuition fails you. Mine fails me regularly when I read about quantum mechanics.
How can you say that when all we know about the universe is from our place on Earth? I've read so many different explanations about the universe and expanding spacetime.. Time doesn't expand. Space doesn't "curve".

Yes, but I asked where the centre of the surface was.


Ok, with an inflated baloon mark on a set of co-ordinates like longitude and latitude. Now, let the baloon deflate. What are the co-ordinates of the centre?

The surface doesn't have a center. But a sphere does.
 
A flat, static universe is not a physical analogy. It is a model of the universe that is not supported by observation.


Is The Universe Static Or Expanding?

Barry Setterfield, 4th August 2002.
http://ldolphin.org/staticu.html

<snip>
The Quantized Redshift
From 1975 onward, after a long, careful series of measurements on binary galaxies and galaxies in the Coma cluster, Tifft published several papers indicating that redshift differences between galaxies were not smooth but went in jumps, or were quantised [Tifft, 1977, p.31]. The Coma cluster exhibited this effect in such a way that bands of redshift ran through the whole cluster. Some little time later, Tifft was on sabbatical leave in Italy and lectured on the puzzling quantization effects he had been observing. At one of these lectures he was presented with a list of accurate redshifts using radio measurements of hydrogen with the comment "I am sure you will not find periodicity in here." In this case, the word "periodicity" is referring to the quantisation effect. Astronomer Halton Arp reports on the outcome of Tifft's analysis of this data set by stating: "Not only did the quantization appear in this independent set of very accurate double galaxy measurements, but it was the most clear cut, obviously significant demonstration of the effect yet seen. ...The results were later reconfirmed by optical measures in the Southern Hemisphere..." [Arp, 1987, p. 112].
<snip>
They noted that the motion of the Solar System through space imparted a genuine Doppler shift of its own to all measurements of redshift. When this Solar System Doppler component was subtracted from the survey results, redshift quantization appeared globally across the whole sky [Tifft & Cocke, 1984, p.492]. Despite the size of the data set that the Fisher-Tully catalogue provided, the 'noisy data' argument continued as the official reason for rejection of the results. However, in 1985, there was an unexpected and independent confirmation of the quantization effects. Sulentic and Arp used radio-telescopes to accurately measure the redshifts of over 260 galaxies from more than 80 different groups for an entirely different purpose. As they did their analysis, the same quantizations that Tifft and Cocke had discovered surprisingly appeared in their data, and the measurement error was only 1/9th of the size of the quantization [Arp & Sulentic, 1985, p. 88; also Arp, 1987, pp.108, 110, 112-113, 119].

<snip>
Attempting To Settle The Issue
These developments were disturbing to astronomers and cosmologists alike. In the early 1990's two astronomers in Scotland decided to prove Tifft wrong once and for all. Bruce Guthrie and William Napier from the Royal Observatory in Edinburgh used the most accurate hydrogen line redshift data. By the end of 1991 they had studied 106 spiral galaxies and detected a quantization of about 37.5 km/s, very close to Tifft's quantum multiple of 36.2 km/s [Schewe & Stein, 1992a, No.61]. By November 1992, a further 89 spiral galaxies had been examined in which a quantization of 37.2 km/s emerged [Schewe & Stein, 1992b, No. 104]. In 1995 they submitted a paper to Astronomy and Astrophysics with the results from a further 97 spiral galaxies showing a 37.5 km/s quantization. Because the prevailing wisdom said the quantization only appeared because of small number statistics, the referees asked them to repeat their analysis with another set of galaxies. This Guthrie and Napier did with an additional set of 117 other galaxies. The same 37.5 km/s quantization was plainly in evidence in this 1996 data set, and the referees accepted the paper [Matthews, 1996, p.759; Corliss, 1996, No. 105, Arp, 1998, p.199-200]. A Fourier analysis of all 399 data points showed a huge spike at 37.5 km/s with a significance of one in a million. The measurement error was about 1/10th the size of the quantization. One comment on the redshift quantization plot stated: "One can see at a glance how accurately the troughs and peaks of redshift march metronomically outward from 0 to over 2000 km/s." [Arp, 1998, p.199]. Despite this observational evidence, cosmologists like James Peebles of Princeton are reluctant to accept it. He stated: "I'm not being dogmatic and saying it cannot happen, but if it does, it's a real shocker." [Corliss, op. cit; Arp, 1998, p.200].

But now were are getting off topic.
 
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Is The Universe Static Or Expanding?

Barry Setterfield, 4th August 2002.
http://ldolphin.org/staticu.html

<snip>
The Quantized Redshift

<snip>
The answer is expanding bacause
  1. we observe it expanding (Hubble) and
  2. the evidence that it was once in a hot dense state (CMB).
Dancing David has already cited the current papers that reveal that quantized redshift was probably a consequence of the low sample numbers available at the time (prior to 2002 which oddly enough is the date of that web page!).
 
Time does not exist.
In what sense does time not exist? How can you say x happened before y or after z without time?

If there were no processes(life, universe, chemical reations etc.) you would not have to measure time.
Well obviously, if there were no universe there'd be no me to measure time.

How can you say that when all we know about the universe is from our place on Earth?
Why shouldn't I say that?

I've read so many different explanations about the universe and expanding spacetime.. Time doesn't expand. Space doesn't "curve".
Just so we're clear, are you saying GR is flat out wrong?

The surface doesn't have a center.
Correct.

But a sphere does.
That's nice. But we're not talking about a sphere.
 
:eek:

You do realize that Barry Setterfield and Lambert Dolphin are creationists?

Does that make their data invalid?? Do you expect them to pull a Climategate with their data??

Funny as it sounds I dont believe in creation or evolution.

I believe that we were genetically engineered and then placed on this planet.

Thats just as good....
 
Does that make their data invalid?? Do you expect them to pull a Climategate with their data??.
Firstly there is no data. There are some equations and citations of outdated invalid papers.

But it means that if their "data" is valid then the Earth is only ~6000 years old. That is what they are saying their "data" shows.

You citing them suggests that you are willing to believe this despite the overwhelming evidence that this is wrong. However I do not thnk that you do believe them and so you citing their "evdence" that the Earth is only ~6000 years old was a mistake.

However if I am wrong .... :D

I assume that you can detect the obvious errors in the web page?
Start with "In order to save the existing paradigm, it is then concluded that the expansion does not occur within the galaxies themselves, but rather is external to them." which is an outright lie.
 
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Does that make their data invalid?? Do you expect them to pull a Climategate with their data??

Funny as it sounds I dont believe in creation or evolution.

I believe that we were genetically engineered and then placed on this planet.

Thats just as good....

So did you cite their data?

Hmmm, Setterfield is wrong in most things....

You don't even read what you cite
http://ldolphin.org/staticu.html

What data does setterfield use Hmmmmmmmmm?

:dl:
 
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Does that make their data invalid?? Do you expect them to pull a Climategate with their data??
Firstly there is no data. There are some equations and citations of outdated invalid papers.

But it means that if their "data" is valid then the Earth is only ~6000 years old. That is what they are saying their "data" shows.


Exactly.

brantc, their arguments are specifically designed to promote a young Earth (and universe). It's an exercise in Biblical literalism, religious apologetics -- nothing whatsoever to do with science. That you're unable to identify it as such is rather unfortunate.
 

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