Monroe Institute

FuzzyQuark

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http://www.monroeinstitute.org/

I'd like to get some opinions on this establishment. The Monroe Institute was founded in 1972 by the late Robert Monroe who wrote 3 books about his "OBEs". The Institute runs all these programs where they claim to be able to teach astral travel, remote viewing, rescuing "ghosts", contacting your "higher self" etc. At first glance it looks like a load of new age woffle, and when you see the cost of their programs you can't help thinking that they are onto a good money-spinner. However, they have run these programs for decades (on a non-profit basis) and claim that thousands of people have been through them and experienced incredible results. It was even mentioned in the Wall Street Journal at one point.

They don't seem to advertise much commercially, so I'm presuming the programs are just passed around by recommendation. If it is a load of baloney that they are selling, it must be good baloney if so many people are willing to shell out the money for the programs over so many years.

I emailed them asking if they intented to try and prove to the wider world that all the stuff they talk about is true, and an Institute director replied saying that it was impossible to prove their ideas objectively and they simply help people to have certain experiences themselves. I've read a few books and articles by people who have been on the programs and they are quite interesting.

Please check out the website & post your thoughts.
 
The monroe institue is one of those countless organisations that's trying to separate people of thier hard earned money by giving them hours upon hours of woo-woo talk about how a better man you are going to be, by learning to do OBEs. Out-of Body Experiences is nothing more than a mild hallucination, which takes place in a persons brain, nowhere else! Often induced by drugs or sleep deprivation. I myself have experienced a mild form of OBE while in extremely relaxed situations (just before I get out of bed in the morning). Nothing supernatural about that, just pure wholesome brain activity. Robert Monroe, founder of the monroe institiure, though seem to have been severely hallucinating during his OBEs.
 
For amusement earlier this year, I tried a friend's copy of the Hemi-Sync audio program that is offered through the Monroe institute. Hemi-Sync is a series of New-Age self-help CDs that are sold for a hefty sum of cash on the institute's website. They claim to work by using using audio effects and inserted noise to increase the amount of active theta waves in the brain. The institute makes a variety of claims about the effects of Hemi-Sync, including a claim saying that the audio program can reduce the effects of ADHD.

Some hemi-sync tracks are purely sound effects, such as running water, while others have a voice narration. The voices are soothing, and give pseudo-mystical instructions related to meditation.

I personally noticed no unusual effects after going through part of the program. The sound effects did make me somewhat sleepy, but much of the drowsiness I experienced was related to my boredom with the new-agey narration.

Hmm, it kind of reminded me of the one of the therapy sessions in the movie, "Fight Club."
 
I agree that it seems like a scam. I can't help wondering though, if it is a scam how it has managed to survive so long. Many of these quack therapies just come and go, yet the Monroe Institute have been around for decades and are still pulling people through the doors. That means either there are lots of gullible people out there and the Institute excels at taking money from them, or they are genuinely onto something.

Just for the record, I read all of Monroe's books & thought that the first one was promising, but he seemed to get a bit too carried away with the others. I tried his OBE technique many times and one time experienced the "surging waves of electricity" he described as the "vibrations", so I know for certain he was being truthful about that. Unfortunately I panicked at that point so nothing else happened and I haven't managed to reproduce it since. I also bought some of the Hemi-Sync CDs but apart from putting me in a very deep state of relaxation, nothing remarkable happened.

So in summary, I think they may be genuine, but I'd like to see (or experience) some concrete evidence.
 
I have tested some different Hemi-Sync CD's and I can see some effects of the CD's:

I have tested for example "Surf", "Pain Control" and some more and AFAIK I was more relaxed etc. after using it.

I have talked to some guys that trained with Mr. Monroe when he trained some of the US Military and they warned my for some of the effects that could happen with the Hemi-Sync technology, which really scared me.

I am afraid I cannot quote them since this was discussed on a private quite large mailing-list, but PM me if you are interested about it.

// d
 
FuzzyQuark said:
I agree that it seems like a scam. I can't help wondering though, if it is a scam how it has managed to survive so long. Many of these quack therapies just come and go, yet the Monroe Institute have been around for decades and are still pulling people through the doors. That means either there are lots of gullible people out there and the Institute excels at taking money from them, or they are genuinely onto something.
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Homeopathy survives for more than 200 years. Christianity for almost 2000.
 
Sleep paralysis again. I'm sorry, but speaking as a long-time sufferer of this disorder, I can safely say that any "surging brain activity" you're feeling is the same thing, albeit triggered consciously instead of being your brain's attempt to freak itself out.
 
The funny thing about skeptics is that they'll cling dearly to their beliefs no matter how contradictory the evidence or experience. Even after reading all of Robert Monroe's books and many other books by the government psychic spys who trained at his institute, all of which seemed genuine and objective, I remained skeptical. But I'd always gone by the numbers and the numbers didn't add up - the government spending dozens of years and millions on training psychics at The Monroe Institute and other reputable laboratories like Stanford Research Institute. So I tried the Hemi-Sync cds and it took a couple months but soon I was having lucid dreams (where I was not partially but fully conscious inside my dreams) and out of bodies which, if one experiences, differ from the lucid dream in many ways. After doing this a couple times a week for a few years I've seen and experienced many of the things described in Monroe's books, and then some. And to people like Anders who boldly claim that this is, "a mild hallucination, which takes place in a persons brain, nowhere else," may I ask, what makes you an authority on the subject? Are you a neurophysicist or accredited mind scientist? Do you have extensive experience when it comes to hallucinations? Do you know many people who have died on the operating table and come back to tell their stories? The vast majority of people who have near death experiences have coinciding OBE's, which happen while their brains have NO electrical signals. Somehow a large percentage of them recall floating in the operating room, seeing their lifeless bodies on the table, and vividly recall what was being discussed and occurring in the room while they were dead. To ignore the limitless mountain of information and evidence on these subjects is naive. To slander people and their organizations that are doing something meaningful and important for humanity, just because you don't understand it and won't take the time to look into it, is libelous, to say the least. The Monroe Institute helped me change my life for the better. If interested look into it and go out and experience for yourself!
 
If they really are so fantastic then they should have no trouble passing a few simple tests. Let's take the whole out of body thing for example. It should be easy to do a simple test with colored objects on top of a cabinet that the subject cannot see.

If you cannot do out of body yourself KC then it should be a simple mater for you to find someone at the Monroe place who can. After all, that would most certainly count for the million dollar prize!
 
KC.reason said:
The funny thing about skeptics is that they'll cling dearly to their beliefs no matter how contradictory the evidence or experience.
[snip]
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The funny thing about True Believers is that they'll often come here, rant about how closed minded the skeptics are, and then respond to any challenges or requests for evidence by waving their hands vigorously about and explaining that their own particular beliefs can't/shouldn't/won't be tested.

Yet they expect to be taken seriously.

KC.reason said:
The vast majority of people who have near death experiences have coinciding OBE's, which happen while their brains have NO electrical signals.
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Setting aside the "vast majority of people" claim, I'm curious. Has anyone ever been revived after reaching the point where there is no electrical activity in the brain? I'm...er, skeptical of that one.
 
FuzzyQuark said:
If it is a load of baloney that they are selling, it must be good baloney if so many people are willing to shell out the money for the programs over so many years.
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Sylvia Browne has been successfully selling her hogwash for decades. There's a sucker born every minute so longevity has no bearing on veracity.
 
SezMe said:
Sylvia Browne has been successfully selling her hogwash for decades. There's a sucker born every minute so longevity has no bearing on veracity.
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Do you often talk to zombies? Do they talk back? :D
 
Glad to see the responses. Interested to hear reactions as I'm researching the subject for a book and appreciate any feedback or questions. I'd simply like to open up a dialog. I'm not here as you mentioned Doc to "rant" about skeptics - I actually followed the line you referenced with a statement about my own skepticism, and actually I consider myself skeptical by nature, preoccupied with logic and reason. And also you should invite such dialog - I'm sure neither you nor anyone else came to this forum to merely share in the collective disbelief and disapproval of spiritual phenomena. You all came here because there's a part of you that wants to believe, to see someone win that million dollars, to know that there's more to life than than mundane existence, to face your fears of the unknown.
As to the million dollar prize and testing these phenomena, I'm a big fan of testing. Doc, you again misrepresented my message when you asserted that I was just waving my hands when presented with a challenge and explaining that my, "own particular beliefs can't/shouldn't/won't be tested." As I earlier stated, "to ignore the limitless mountain of information and evidence on these subjects is naive." Testing OBE's and psychic phenomena has been ongoing for dozens of years at reputable establishments such as Stanford, Princeton, Duke University and I can personally introduce you to a cross section of individuals you're welcome to query. Unfortunately much of this laboratory testing and evidence has been stricken from the mainstream media and history books, for the same reason Nikola Tesla has been erased. You know, the guy you learned about in grade school who invented AC electricity, AM/FM radio, wireless communication, the motor engine, and the x-ray among many others. The Man Who Invented the 20th Century. Oh wait, maybe you didn't hear much about him because he invented a system of free unlimited wireless electricity (see Wardenclyffe Tower). Or was it because he acquired these inventions in perfect detail through trace induced psychic flashes of white light. That and he said some things that made him unpopular like how he was in contact with spirits.
Despite all that there's still a great abundance of evidence out there. I'm not a big fan of Uri Geller because of some of his conduct and tendency towards theatrics, but look up "SRI Uri Geller" on google video and explain how he fooled those reputable Stanford Phd's. Statistically you've got at least one in a billion odds of matching the images in the sealed envelopes. How does he get so many? After seeing this and many other tests I still didn't believe so I had to go out around LA psychic shops till I found a few people that would do a blind reading with a question asking for a description of an certain thing, written on a folded paper inside a sealed opaque envelope. One woman nailed 2 out of 3. Know anything about math? There are over a billion objects/things in the world. Was it a clever cold reading that she knew one was the moon, and the other the Space Needle? Statistically impossible.
So am I just a sucker Sez and Sean? And if all of my lucid dreams, shared dreams, out of bodies, all the beings I've met, and all of the amazing information and guidance I've been given are just hallucinations, then I'm just stumped and equally astounded at the incomprehensible power of the human mind.
As to the Randi Challenge and your question Kitten, as far as I'm aware it's not as simple as remote viewing a few colors, numbers, or images. The Official Rules seem a little ambiguous - maybe someone could post a link explaining what kind of example protocol he would use. If he or anyone else wants to meet someone who is psychic, can communicate with spirits, or wants to learn to go out of body, feel free to contact me.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemi-Sync
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainwave_synchronization

Monroe's whole thing is based on this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binaural_beats

Binaural beats

Binaural beats or binaural tones are auditory processing artifacts, or apparent sounds, the perception of which arises in the brain for specific physical stimuli. This effect was discovered in 1839 by Heinrich Wilhelm Dove, and earned greater public awareness in the late 20th century based on claims that binaural beats could help induce relaxation, creativity and other desirable mental states.[citation needed]

The brain produces a phenomenon resulting in low-frequency pulsations in the loudness and sound localization of a perceived sound when two tones at slightly different frequencies are presented separately, one to each of a subject's ears, using stereo headphones. A beating tone will be perceived, as if the two tones mixed naturally, out of the brain. The frequency of the tones must be below about 1,000 to 1,500 hertz for the beating to be heard. The difference between the two frequencies must be small (below about 30 Hz) for the effect to occur; otherwise, the two tones will be heard separately and no beat will be perceived.

Binaural beats are of interest to neurophysiologists investigating the sense of hearing. Binaural beats reportedly influence the brain in more subtle ways through the entrainment of brainwaves[1][2] and can be used to reduce anxiety[3] and provide other health benefits such as control over pain.[4]

I personally have done and still do the very basic hemi-synch masked by white noise. It definitely induces a meditative state just bio-feedback or other forms of meditation. As far as the OBEs or astral stuff, never even came close and I'm not paying money to try.
 
KC.reason said:
Testing OBE's and psychic phenomena has been ongoing for dozens of years at reputable establishments such as Stanford, Princeton, Duke University and I can personally introduce you to a cross section of individuals you're welcome to query. Unfortunately much of this laboratory testing and evidence has been stricken from the mainstream media and history books,
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The conspiracy theory subforum is down the hall.

for the same reason Nikola Tesla has been erased. You know, the guy you learned about in grade school who invented AC electricity, AM/FM radio, wireless communication, the motor engine, and the x-ray among many others. The Man Who Invented the 20th Century. Oh wait, maybe you didn't hear much about him
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Of course I've heard of Tesla, he's one of the most famous inventors who ever lived. he's even got an SI unit named after him.

because he invented a system of free unlimited wireless electricity (see Wardenclyffe Tower).
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I think you're the one that needs to look it up, you appear to have got hold of some very odd notions about it.

Or was it because he acquired these inventions in perfect detail through trace induced psychic flashes of white light. That and he said some things that made him unpopular like how he was in contact with spirits.
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He was certainly a very odd man, prone to what we would now call OCD, but then lots of famous scientists and inventors were a bit odd and go even more so in their old age. Doesn't make his achievements any less remarkable, and it certainly hasn't led to him being written out of history.

Despite all that there's still a great abundance of evidence out there.
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No, there's a great abundance of unsubstantiated stories out there that never stand up to scrutiny.

I'm not a big fan of Uri Geller because of some of his conduct and tendency towards theatrics, but look up "SRI Uri Geller" on google video and explain how he fooled those reputable Stanford Phd's. Statistically you've got at least one in a billion odds of matching the images in the sealed envelopes. How does he get so many?
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He cheats. He's a magician, it's what they do. James Randi is also a magician, and can do all the tricks Gellar can do and more. He neither has, nor claims to have, paranormal abilities.
 
Weak Kitten said:
If they really are so fantastic then they should have no trouble passing a few simple tests. Let's take the whole out of body thing for example. It should be easy to do a simple test with colored objects on top of a cabinet that the subject cannot see.

If you cannot do out of body yourself KC then it should be a simple mater for you to find someone at the Monroe place who can. After all, that would most certainly count for the million dollar prize!
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Sidenote: actually he'd be able to claim ~US$2.5 million from the various skeptic challenges. Even in today's dollars that's not bad for a simple demonstration taking a few hours in total.
I wonder why he hasn't applied.;)
 
KC.reason said:
Glad to see the responses. Interested to hear reactions as I'm researching the subject for a book and appreciate any feedback or questions. I'd simply like to open up a dialog. I'm not here as you mentioned Doc to "rant" about skeptics - I actually followed the line you referenced with a statement about my own skepticism, and actually I consider myself skeptical by nature, preoccupied with logic and reason. And also you should invite such dialog - I'm sure neither you nor anyone else came to this forum to merely share in the collective disbelief and disapproval of spiritual phenomena.
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Actually I came here for information on certain loony conspiracy theories; I stayed for the intelligent banter.

KC.reason said:
You all came here because there's a part of you that wants to believe, to see someone win that million dollars, to know that there's more to life than than mundane existence, to face your fears of the unknown.
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Really? You may need to believe to reassure yourself, others do not.

KC.reason said:
As to the million dollar prize and testing these phenomena, I'm a big fan of testing. Doc, you again misrepresented my message when you asserted that I was just waving my hands when presented with a challenge and explaining that my, "own particular beliefs can't/shouldn't/won't be tested." As I earlier stated, "to ignore the limitless mountain of information and evidence on these subjects is naive." Testing OBE's and psychic phenomena has been ongoing for dozens of years at reputable establishments such as Stanford, Princeton, Duke University and I can personally introduce you to a cross section of individuals you're welcome to query.
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Yet after all this effort there is no demonstrable result, what should that tell us?

KC.reason said:
Unfortunately much of this laboratory testing and evidence has been stricken from the mainstream media and history books,
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And the conspiracy theories begin............

KC.reason said:
for the same reason Nikola Tesla has been erased.
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I don't know about you but my secondary education did cover Tesla; he's quite a well known figure in physics.

KC.reason said:
You know, the guy you learned about in grade school who invented AC electricity, AM/FM radio, wireless communication, the motor engine, and the x-ray among many others.The Man Who Invented the 20th Century. Oh wait, maybe you didn't hear much about him because he invented a system of free unlimited wireless electricity (see Wardenclyffe Tower). Or was it because he acquired these inventions in perfect detail through trace induced psychic flashes of white light. That and he said some things that made him unpopular like how he was in contact with spirits.
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Ah evidently my education was at fault because it only covered the reality of Tesla's work rather than the imaginary parts. For example, being able to transmit electric power wirelessly (with significant losses and unknown environmental effects) doesn't help at all in generating that power in the first place.

KC.reason said:
Despite all that there's still a great abundance of evidence out there. I'm not a big fan of Uri Geller because of some of his conduct and tendency towards theatrics, but look up "SRI Uri Geller" on google video and explain how he fooled those reputable Stanford Phd's.
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Geller has long since been exposed as a pathetic fraud, that you still believe in his "powers" says much about your credulity. And credibility.

KC.reason said:
Statistically you've got at least one in a billion odds of matching the images in the sealed envelopes. How does he get so many? After seeing this and many other tests I still didn't believe so I had to go out around LA psychic shops till I found a few people that would do a blind reading with a question asking for a description of an certain thing, written on a folded paper inside a sealed opaque envelope. One woman nailed 2 out of 3. Know anything about math? There are over a billion objects/things in the world. Was it a clever cold reading that she knew one was the moon, and the other the Space Needle? Statistically impossible.
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Oh dear, not this rubbish again.

KC.reason said:
So am I just a sucker Sez and Sean?
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It appears to me, from our very limited interaction, that you're young and credulous; you want to believe in something, even if it's not actually real.

KC.reason said:
And if all of my lucid dreams, shared dreams, out of bodies, all the beings I've met, and all of the amazing information and guidance I've been given are just hallucinations, then I'm just stumped and equally astounded at the incomprehensible power of the human mind.
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There's nothing supernatural or paranormal about lucid dreaming. If you wish to post more details on your experiences I'm sure others will explain hy they're also not paranormal.

KC.reason said:
As to the Randi Challenge and your question Kitten, as far as I'm aware it's not as simple as remote viewing a few colors, numbers, or images. The Official Rules seem a little ambiguous - maybe someone could post a link explaining what kind of example protocol he would use. If he or anyone else wants to meet someone who is psychic, can communicate with spirits, or wants to learn to go out of body, feel free to contact me.
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There is a sub-forum here dedicated to the Challenge, I suggest you post a request there. The protocol, including definition of success conditions, is agreed in advance by both sides.
 
KC.reason said:
After seeing this and many other tests I still didn't believe so I had to go out around LA psychic shops till I found a few people that would do a blind reading with a question asking for a description of an certain thing, written on a folded paper inside a sealed opaque envelope. One woman nailed 2 out of 3. Know anything about math? There are over a billion objects/things in the world. Was it a clever cold reading that she knew one was the moon, and the other the Space Needle? Statistically impossible.
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Randi did something similar for Italian TV...

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181637
 
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Will somebody please contact the guv'mint disinfotainment agent in charge of keeping Nikola Tesla's name out of the mainstream media and tell him to get off his lazy ass?

-The cheesy 80's hair band Tesla was named in his honor.

-The Mythbuster's tested(and busted) Tesla's "earthquake machine".

-None other than the great David Bowie portrayed Nikola Tesla in 2006 in the movie The Prestige.

-PBS, The History Channel, The Discovery Channel, etc... frequently run documentaries about the life and times of Nikola Tesla.

-There's a company named Tesla Motors which manufactures electric cars which are marketed to the general public.

-Nikola Tesla's wiki page is longer than my arm.

-The name Tesla attracts "free energy" scammers and conspiracy theorists across the internet like poop draws flies.

To whomever is responsible for keeping the Tesla thing under wraps... you're doing it wrong.
 
KC.reason said:
[snip]
I'm not here as you mentioned Doc to "rant" about skeptics - I actually followed the line you referenced with a statement about my own skepticism, and actually I consider myself skeptical by nature, preoccupied with logic and reason. And also you should invite such dialog - I'm sure neither you nor anyone else came to this forum to merely share in the collective disbelief and disapproval of spiritual phenomena.
[snip]
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Actually, you did rant. If you say that you weren't waving your hands, then ok - I accept that part.

At any rate, you came in here claiming to be skeptical about this stuff, and then immediately proceeded to tell us how meaningful and important the institute is for humanity, implied that we're not qualified to speak on these matters (though apparently you are), and then accused us being criminals (defamation being actionable in most jurisdictions, and actually criminal in many).

That does not a good first impression make. Having seen this before, and more than a few times, I thought it might be fun to oppose your gross generalization with my own. Usually, I am quite happy to invite dialogue. However, there are times when someone's first post is insulting enough that rational discourse doesn't appear to be the objective.

KC.reason said:
[snip]
You all came here because there's a part of you that wants to believe, to see someone win that million dollars, to know that there's more to life than than mundane existence, to face your fears of the unknown.
[snip]
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I'd love to see someone win the million, but only because it would mean that there's a whole new area of knowledge out there; one that managed to lurk around, unevidenced, for centuries. That's brilliant. No part of me desires belief, though. Any idiot can believe something, but actually learning about it requires effort and discipline, and is rewarding in ways that mere belief can never be.
 
Doc Daneeka said:
I'd love to see someone win the million, but only because it would mean that there's a whole new area of knowledge out there; one that managed to lurk around, unevidenced, for centuries. That's brilliant. No part of me desires belief, though. Any idiot can believe something, but actually learning about it requires effort and discipline, and is rewarding in ways that mere belief can never be.
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Well said, Doc.
 
Back to the Monroe Institute--my mother works as a home healthcare nurse in that stretch of central VA. She has been out to the MI on many occasions to care for several "family" members. Mom is definitely a bit wooish, but she describes those MI people as off the deep end.
 
KC.reason said:
And if all of my lucid dreams, shared dreams, out of bodies, all the beings I've met, and all of the amazing information and guidance I've been given are just hallucinations, then I'm just stumped and equally astounded at the incomprehensible power of the human mind.
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I'm astounded by it everyday. Most notably its ability to fool you. I'm not just pointing my finger at others either, I fool myself all the time:mad:. Being skeptical is a great start at a defense, but never think you can't be fooled.
 
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Sounds like someone ran in to the old military group that tried to do remote viewing. If memory serves, Pat Price was the big gun there, and they believe that he "died" and was working underground for the government, since he was the best of all of them. I have a book written by a member of this group at home that I've read thoroughly.

It's all make-believe, though. Remote viewing does not work.
 
I've met several people who have had a near death experience. This stimulated my curiosity leading to a lot of reading about these experiences and the research that seems to indicate they are more than hallucinations or created by the brain. You might read the book Mind Sight as one example. It didn't come to any definitive conclusions but presents interesting results from a study of the Blind.

This NDE research led to an intellectual exploration of other areas of reality. I just finished reading two of Robert Monroe's books and My Big TOE by Thomas Campbell. Campbell is a nuclear physicist who participated in Monroe Institute studies. What I read indicates there might be much more to reality than our 5 senses can perceive. I am registered to attend the Gateway Voyage at the Institute in December. Yes it is expensive. I guess I'm fortunate in that I can afford the price. In any event I see this as an investment in an exploration. I'm going into it with an open mind yet trying to limit any preconceived notion about what I will experience. If nothing comes of it other than a relaxing week, the cost in time and money is negligible. If I gain new insights and learn some new Knowns, then perhaps the week will be a turning point for me.

As I understand the scientific method, a hypothesis is formed. Data is collected in an objective manner to see whether or not the data supports or does not support the hypothesis. I'm trying to maintain that perspective as I prepare for the week at the Institute.
 
jfish said:
If I gain new insights and learn some new Knowns, then perhaps the week will be a turning point for me.
QUOTE]

I think the "known" you'll learn is that beguiling the credulous is profitable.
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You may be right. One can't be sure until one embarks on the journey for himself. In the 15th century some European explorers thought they would see for themselves whether there was a new trading route to the west. Probably most people at the time thought they were crazy. It seemed pretty apparent that the world was flat to the casual observer.

Consider the singer from Atlanta who had an operation to repair her brain aneurysm. A standard operating procedure was too risky so she opted for a different procedure whereby her body temperature was lowered to 60 degrees and her brain waves were flat before removing the blood from her body. (To measure brain waves high decibel noise generators were sealed in her ear canals.) From our current medical perspective she was dead - no heart beat and no brain activity. After repairing the blood vessel in her brain, the physicians returned her blood and resusitated her body. After her recovery she accurately reported conversations between the physicians in the operating room and could describe the surgical tools used. The attending physician commented that this doesn't offer definitive proof of NDEs but he could come up with no other logical explanation.

Whether one choses to accept or dismiss such things is a personal choice.
 
jfish said:
Consider the singer from Atlanta who had an operation to repair her brain aneurysm. A standard operating procedure was too risky so she opted for a different procedure whereby her body temperature was lowered to 60 degrees and her brain waves were flat before removing the blood from her body. (To measure brain waves high decibel noise generators were sealed in her ear canals.) From our current medical perspective she was dead - no heart beat and no brain activity. After repairing the blood vessel in her brain, the physicians returned her blood and resusitated her body. After her recovery she accurately reported conversations between the physicians in the operating room and could describe the surgical tools used. The attending physician commented that this doesn't offer definitive proof of NDEs but he could come up with no other logical explanation.
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I admire your willingness to have your heart stopped and body temperature lowered. But it seems risky to me.

I am more curious that you would willfully seek to undergo a "transformative experience" and even pay to do so. Be very careful when you entrust your own personality and worldview into the hands of others. The level of trust must be extremely high here. In effect, you are asking to have your brain remodeled. For good or ill, you will not be the same person... I find this disturbing.
 
jfish said:
You may be right. One can't be sure until one embarks on the journey for himself. In the 15th century some European explorers thought they would see for themselves whether there was a new trading route to the west. Probably most people at the time thought they were crazy. It seemed pretty apparent that the world was flat to the casual observer.
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No, it didn't. It seemed pretty apparent that the earth was a sphere. That's why a Greek mathematician attempted to measure its circumference almost two thousand years before Columbus sailed to the Americas.
 
jfish said:
Consider the singer from Atlanta who had an operation to repair her brain aneurysm. A standard operating procedure was too risky so she opted for a different procedure whereby her body temperature was lowered to 60 degrees and her brain waves were flat before removing the blood from her body. (To measure brain waves high decibel noise generators were sealed in her ear canals.) From our current medical perspective she was dead - no heart beat and no brain activity. After repairing the blood vessel in her brain, the physicians returned her blood and resusitated her body. After her recovery she accurately reported conversations between the physicians in the operating room and could describe the surgical tools used. The attending physician commented that this doesn't offer definitive proof of NDEs but he could come up with no other logical explanation.
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This sounds very anecdotey, and while a certain someone who posts frequently on this subforum adores such things, the rest of us require a bit more. A citation perhaps.
 
I appreciate the concern expressed by marplots. I've done some due diligence and critically considered my motivations for this prior to making the commitment. Thanks for your note and words of caution. I've heard some negative reports of people pursuing spiritual enlightenment.

Regarding citations - I first read about the Atlanta singer in the book The Handbook of Near-Death Experiences authored by Janice Holden, Bruce Greyson and Debbie James. I read a second reference to the operation in the book The Science of Life After Death. The singer's name is Pam Reynolds. The neurosurgeon's name is Robert Spetzler. I think the original publication of this case was in a 1998 book Light and Death written by a cardiologist named Michael Sabom. If anyone is interested, you can google the name Pam Reynolds and read more about the case.
 
jfish said:
Consider the singer from Atlanta who had an operation to repair her brain aneurysm. A standard operating procedure was too risky so she opted for a different procedure whereby her body temperature was lowered to 60 degrees and her brain waves were flat before removing the blood from her body. (To measure brain waves high decibel noise generators were sealed in her ear canals.) From our current medical perspective she was dead - no heart beat and no brain activity. After repairing the blood vessel in her brain, the physicians returned her blood and resusitated her body. After her recovery she accurately reported conversations between the physicians in the operating room and could describe the surgical tools used. The attending physician commented that this doesn't offer definitive proof of NDEs but he could come up with no other logical explanation.
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Can you provide documentation of this event, please?
 
jfish said:
You may be right. One can't be sure until one embarks on the journey for himself. In the 15th century some European explorers thought they would see for themselves whether there was a new trading route to the west. Probably most people at the time thought they were crazy. It seemed pretty apparent that the world was flat to the casual observer.
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Rubbish. Long before 1492 it was well known that the Earth was spherical, e.g. Aristotle's argument in the fourth century BCE and the later efforts by Eratosthenes of Cyrene and Khalif El Ma'mun to measure it's circumference.
The panel of experts, appointed by Ferdinand, to examine Columbus's plan were actually correct; his plan to sail west to to the Indies would not (and did not) succeed because Columbus grossly under-estimated the circumference of the Earth and the distance to be sailed.
If it hadn't been for the presence of the Americas, unknown to Columbus, the expedition would have perished in the ocean.

jfish said:
Consider the singer from Atlanta who had an operation to repair her brain aneurysm. A standard operating procedure was too risky so she opted for a different procedure whereby her body temperature was lowered to 60 degrees and her brain waves were flat before removing the blood from her body. (To measure brain waves high decibel noise generators were sealed in her ear canals.) From our current medical perspective she was dead - no heart beat and no brain activity. After repairing the blood vessel in her brain, the physicians returned her blood and resusitated her body. After her recovery she accurately reported conversations between the physicians in the operating room and could describe the surgical tools used. The attending physician commented that this doesn't offer definitive proof of NDEs but he could come up with no other logical explanation.
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Citation?

jfish said:
Whether one choses to accept or dismiss such things is a personal choice.
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No it depends, in rational people, on the evidence.
 
jfish said:
You may be right. One can't be sure until one embarks on the journey for himself. In the 15th century some European explorers thought they would see for themselves whether there was a new trading route to the west. Probably most people at the time thought they were crazy. It seemed pretty apparent that the world was flat to the casual observer.

Consider the singer from Atlanta who had an operation to repair her brain aneurysm. A standard operating procedure was too risky so she opted for a different procedure whereby her body temperature was lowered to 60 degrees and her brain waves were flat before removing the blood from her body. (To measure brain waves high decibel noise generators were sealed in her ear canals.) From our current medical perspective she was dead - no heart beat and no brain activity. After repairing the blood vessel in her brain, the physicians returned her blood and resusitated her body. After her recovery she accurately reported conversations between the physicians in the operating room and could describe the surgical tools used. The attending physician commented that this doesn't offer definitive proof of NDEs but he could come up with no other logical explanation.

Whether one choses to accept or dismiss such things is a personal choice.
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There are several timelines I found googling the case. I haven't found one that states anything other than her recollections are of events that occured while she was under anesthesia.
 
dirtywick said:
There are several timelines I found googling the case. I haven't found one that states anything other than her recollections are of events that occured while she was under anesthesia.
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It would be best to get testimony from the doctors as well, because people can make up, fabricate or accidentally exaggerate things in their minds.
 
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