JFK Conspiracy Theories: It Never Ends II

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aggle-rithm

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This is a continuation of this thread: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222556

The original thread was closed due to size. For continuity of discussion, the last 3 pages were split from the original thread and appear here.

As always, please keep your posts on topic, civil/polite, and address the argument.
Posted By: Locknar


Who says the fake print was a legitimate print? Warren Counsel Lee Rankin questioned it's authenticity in the previously referred to memo:


"Mr. Rankin advised because of the circumstances that now exist there was
a serious question in the minds of the Commission as to whether or not the palm impression that has been obtained from the Dallas Police Department is a legitimate latent palm impression removed from the rifle barrel or whether it was obtained from some other source and that for this reason this matter needs to be resolved."

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weis... FBI Records From 1-8-78 Releases/Item 39.pdf

Once again, you provide a source that undermines your previous argument. You were saying that the FBI took the gun to the funeral home and got the print from Oswald's body. Remember? Now you provide a source that says they didn't even have to get the print, because they had the impression that was from some other source. Meaning, not the rifle.

(Even though the FBI confirmed that the impression was from that rifle, since it not only picked up the print but the surface texture of the rifle itself. Of course, you'll just say the FBI is lying, even though you have provided FBI sources a number of times as infallible evidence.)
 
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Once again, you provide a source that undermines your previous argument. You were saying that the FBI took the gun to the funeral home and got the print from Oswald's body. Remember? Now you provide a source that says they didn't even have to get the print, because they had the impression that was from some other source. Meaning, not the rifle.

(Even though the FBI confirmed that the impression was from that rifle, since it not only picked up the print but the surface texture of the rifle itself. Of course, you'll just say the FBI is lying, even though you have provided FBI sources a number of times as infallible evidence.)

Oh, and you linked to the wrong memo.
 
Just before he died my grandfather confessed to sinking the Titanic. I have it on tape, so it must be true.
 
My claim was that the conspiracy theorists have named no other perpetrator around which any sort of consensus of evidence can be built. Explain how Hunt satisfies those conditions.
.

And which "conspiracy theorists" would those be?
 
No, there is evidence involved too. You have yet to provide any.

Well, according to "Mr. Expert," witness interviews don't count, sworn statements don't count, deathbed confessions don't count. In short anything that points to conspiracy, does not count. So what's left?
 
As Robert has yet to show me his rule in the MA...

...nor justify why he gets to impose arbitrary rules on his critics while at the same time maintaining that they are intellectually beneath him. You don't handicap the horse with the fat jockey. Nor to justify why this particular rule exempting him from attention to criticism, while at the same time he insists no one has rebutted his claims. If your fingers are in your ears you don't get to tell everyone the phone never rang.

...I will remind him that I do not believe I ever have claimed nobody confessed, nor have I tried to "have it both ways".

Nor I. I didn't mention a confession or even address the concept of it. What I said was that in all the decades of JFK "scholarship," the conspiracy theorists have yet to paint a picture of evidence that points decidedly in a new direction. Rather, their pictures point in all different directions -- or more precisely, in no particular direction. They are a laundry list of nit-picks, inconsistencies, and irrelevant tidbits that they say erodes faith in some particular other theory.

In my experience, the inability to come to any better specific conclusion after an exhaustive survey of all available evidence indicates that no comparatively better conclusion is likely to exist. Hence the prevailing conclusion, as injured as it may seem from all the frantic nit-picking, remains the best conclusion, even if it is momentarily made to seem unlike an objectively good conclusion.

Of course Robert maintains that he has stated and supported a conclusion, that of a case "for conspiracy." But this is woefully non-specific. It's essentially a wildcard conclusion into which any of a set of dissimilar evidence can be made to fit. That is, it's not a conclusion drawn on the basis of evidence, but rather a wussy predetermined conclusion into which almost any picture of evidence can fall.

The typical fringe argument (UFOs, JFK, Moon hoax -- you name it) goes like this: "Here is the standard of proof the 'official story' must meet. According to me, and by these nit-picky handwaving criticisms, the official story fails to meet the standard of proof I arbitrarily set for it. Therefore my vague, broadly defined alternative must be true by default, and all the details will simply work themselves out -- I don't have time to mess with all the evidence since I know by inference that it has to be false somehow."

So Robert makes a case "for conspiracy" without being willing or able to state any testable hypothesis along those lines. He asserts that he has proven there had to have been more than one shooter, even though his proof is merely an inference from some cherry-picked evidence. And rather than shoulder the burden of proof for his extraordinary claims, he says his critics must somehow prove an affirmative case that somehow precludes his claims.

But what would that affirmative counterclaim be? If the claim is "some conspiracy" (with no further detail) then the counterclaim would be "no conspiracy." And since there is no specific conspiracy claim Robert is willing to make, then the affirmative counterclaim would be "no possible conspiracy." In other words, Robert wishes to saddle his critics not only with affirmatively proving that some given conspiracy (i.e., shooter on the Grassy Knoll) did not occur, but that no conspiracy anyone could ever possibly conceive could have occurred.

Again that's what most fringe theorists do for an argument. They set the bar absurdly low for themselves, declaring that "some conspiracy" need only be suggested by some evidence, or that "that light in the sky cannot be natural." Then they try to turn the tables and set a superfluous bar absurdly high for their critics, to preclude even speculative claims: "you must prove only one shooter," or "we will need to document this candidate's citizenship more than any other human." Then the desired conclusion is said to hold by default, "You can't tell me what that light in the sky was, therefore aliens." "You can't explain this speck in this photo, therefore another shooter."
 
And which "conspiracy theorists" would those be?

Well let's start with the ones you've used: Fetzer, Marrs, Law, and White. I can name others, but it won't change the landscape much.

You named Hunt. But I countered that there isn't a consensus built around him that he's the other shooter, besides or in addition to Oswald. I asked you if you claim Hunt is the other shooter. If he isn't, why did you bring him up in response to my rebuttal? If he is, then show the evidence that he fired a shot at Kennedy.

The rejoinder to my rebuttal will be very easy, Robert. Name another shooter and show that the majority (or any substantial fraction of) the prominent JFK conspiracy authors and their readers agree the evidence identifies that person as a shooter instead of or along with Oswald.
 
Well, according to "Mr. Expert," witness interviews don't count, sworn statements don't count, deathbed confessions don't count. In short anything that points to conspiracy, does not count. So what's left?

Real evidence. Pity for you that it doesn't exist. Will you be keeping this up for he rest of your life?
 
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I don't think anybody does.
That's got to be the worst example of coincidences ever.

Really I think two short term inmates at the same juvenile home with in a year or so (maybe less) of each other going on to commit sniper politican assassination within 4 years of each other is already a remarkable coincidence. Add to that the others, birth 1938 - 9, living in the same neighborhoods, parents seperating at same age, being in the USMC 2 - 3 years around the same time (2 years apart) , marrying teen brides around the same time (about 1 year apart) seperating or divorcing around the same time (about 1 year apart), hitting their targets in their cars with two shots from the roof or upper floors of a building. Very few assassination targets were killed in cars by snipers.




I like how they make being arrested on the street = shooting cop on the street.

LHO was arrested by patrolmen after the Tippet shooting he was arrested in the street. I made no reference to the Tippet shooting in my original post.

Once again I don't think it means anything sinister, coincidences happen, but perhaps Prey will claim Youth House was a brain washing center that programed Mancurian Candidates
 
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Once again I don't think it means anything sinister, coincidences happen, but perhaps Prey will claim Youth House was a brain washing center that programed Mancurian Candidates
Robert can come up with his own irrational theories on his own without your help.
I fear you have just extended this thread by another 30 pages.
 
Lee Harvey Oswald = John Patler
- Born: October 18, 1939 = January 6, 1938
- Parents separated when 5 years-old = ditto (father killed mother)
- Born in: New Orleans, grew up there, Ft. Worth and NYC (inc. East Harlem and the Bronx) = Born in NYC lived in East Harlem and the Bronx.
- Siblings: 1brother, 1 half brother (no sisters) = 1brother (no sisters)
- Detained Youth House (NYC): April – May 1953 = “a little over 2 weeks” 1953/4 ?
- USMC: 1956 – 9 = 1958 – 60,
- Dishonorable Discharge* = ditto
- Married: 19 year-old girlfriend 1961 (separated 1963) = 17 year old girlfriend 1960 (divorced 1964)
- Communist but had right-wing friends = Neo-Nazi, expelled for "Bolshevikleanings."
- Believed to have shot and killed US President JFK in his car from the 6th floor of a building 1963
= Shot and killed US Nazi party president George Lincoln Rockwell in his car from roof of building 1967
- Used a European gun (Carcano rifle) = ditto (Mauser pistol)
- Arrested on the street: by patrolmen (previously took bus) = arrested at a bus stop by patrolman
- JFK shot twice (according to WC etc.) = Rockwell shot twice
- JFK born 1917 studied at Harvard = Rockwell born 1918 studied at Brown
- JFK was a USN officer in the Pacific = ditto Rockwell
- JFK worked and lived in DC 1950s – 60s = ditto Rockwell (OK Arlington VA)

* Originally given hardship discharge, but it was changed to dishonorable after his defection

Sources: Wikipedia and http://vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=80317 , note the latter is a White Supremacist site some may find the content offensive


So does anybody believe these were all 'just' coincidences?


Hi Len. If you're the person who advanced the storm drain theory, we met in Dallas in 1992 or 1993.

How you been?

Hank
 
At this point hundreds of pieces of evidence for conspiracy have been presented -- none successfully challenged. Not by you. Not by anyone. On the other hand, your own frantic word games attempt to escape your own burden of proof for the one Lone Nut scenario for which you have been unable to cite even one single piece of evidence. But in place of that -- nonsensical gibberish in place of rational criticism, that's your game, that's your expertise. Gibber on.


Hilarious. There's your most recent lie, Robert. In bold face and big type. Just because you don't accept they've been successfully challenged doesn't mean they haven't been. Hand-waving them away; ignoring them entirely; or dismissing them with a 'baloney' or a 'one-at-a-time-or-no-debate' claim doesn't make them go away. Nor does it mean they were unsuccessful in challenging your claims.

Hank
 
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Well, according to "Mr. Expert," witness interviews don't count, sworn statements don't count, deathbed confessions don't count. In short anything that points to conspiracy, does not count. So what's left?

Yes, but it's not discounted because it points to a conspiracy, it's discounted because it's lousy evidence. It just happens that all the evidence that points to a conspiracy is lousy.

That's just the way it worked out, somehow.
 
The third is the general state of conspiracy research, where I claim it fails to identify suspects and create a consensus among all conspiracy researchers around that suspect. Is this the point you had hoped to address with Hunt's alleged confession?

A consensus of opinion is probably the most irrational challenge you've made thus far. At one time there was a "consensus" that the earth was flat -- a consensus that a security guard by the name of Richard Jewel was responsible for the Atlanta Olympics Bombing, subsequently crucified in the media, but later exonerated, and then there was the Duke LaCross team rape frame up -- also crucified in the media, but later exonerated. Other examples are legion regarding "consensus" about anything. And there was indeed once a consensus of the Am. People that one Lone Commie Nut killed the President. But when it became apparent that all this "hard" evidence the WC talked about, upon examination, became softer and softer, soon that consensus turned around the other way. Perhaps you'd best re-think this idea of yours that a consensus is necessary before accusing or not accusing anybody.

Identifying suspects before one accepts that fact that there just may have been more than one person involved is placing the cart before the horse which will not pull the wagon.
 
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Well let's start with the ones you've used: Fetzer, Marrs, Law, and White. I can name others, but it won't change the landscape much.

You named Hunt. But I countered that there isn't a consensus built around him that he's the other shooter,

I've never claimed Hunt was a shooter, nor do I recall any other researchers or witnesses claiming such. But a co-conspirator? Perhaps. But I don't even say that, though others have though not the ones you have named.
 
...nor justify why he gets to impose arbitrary rules on his critics while at the same time maintaining that they are intellectually beneath him. You don't handicap the horse with the fat jockey. Nor to justify why this particular rule exempting him from attention to criticism, while at the same time he insists no one has rebutted his claims. If your fingers are in your ears you don't get to tell everyone the phone never rang.



Nor I. I didn't mention a confession or even address the concept of it. What I said was that in all the decades of JFK "scholarship," the conspiracy theorists have yet to paint a picture of evidence that points decidedly in a new direction. Rather, their pictures point in all different directions -- or more precisely, in no particular direction. They are a laundry list of nit-picks, inconsistencies, and irrelevant tidbits that they say erodes faith in some particular other theory.

In my experience, the inability to come to any better specific conclusion after an exhaustive survey of all available evidence indicates that no comparatively better conclusion is likely to exist. Hence the prevailing conclusion, as injured as it may seem from all the frantic nit-picking, remains the best conclusion, even if it is momentarily made to seem unlike an objectively good conclusion.

Of course Robert maintains that he has stated and supported a conclusion, that of a case "for conspiracy." But this is woefully non-specific. It's essentially a wildcard conclusion into which any of a set of dissimilar evidence can be made to fit. That is, it's not a conclusion drawn on the basis of evidence, but rather a wussy predetermined conclusion into which almost any picture of evidence can fall.

The typical fringe argument (UFOs, JFK, Moon hoax -- you name it) goes like this: "Here is the standard of proof the 'official story' must meet. According to me, and by these nit-picky handwaving criticisms, the official story fails to meet the standard of proof I arbitrarily set for it. Therefore my vague, broadly defined alternative must be true by default, and all the details will simply work themselves out -- I don't have time to mess with all the evidence since I know by inference that it has to be false somehow."

So Robert makes a case "for conspiracy" without being willing or able to state any testable hypothesis along those lines. He asserts that he has proven there had to have been more than one shooter, even though his proof is merely an inference from some cherry-picked evidence. And rather than shoulder the burden of proof for his extraordinary claims, he says his critics must somehow prove an affirmative case that somehow precludes his claims.

But what would that affirmative counterclaim be? If the claim is "some conspiracy" (with no further detail) then the counterclaim would be "no conspiracy." And since there is no specific conspiracy claim Robert is willing to make, then the affirmative counterclaim would be "no possible conspiracy." In other words, Robert wishes to saddle his critics not only with affirmatively proving that some given conspiracy (i.e., shooter on the Grassy Knoll) did not occur, but that no conspiracy anyone could ever possibly conceive could have occurred.

Again that's what most fringe theorists do for an argument. They set the bar absurdly low for themselves, declaring that "some conspiracy" need only be suggested by some evidence, or that "that light in the sky cannot be natural." Then they try to turn the tables and set a superfluous bar absurdly high for their critics, to preclude even speculative claims: "you must prove only one shooter," or "we will need to document this candidate's citizenship more than any other human." Then the desired conclusion is said to hold by default, "You can't tell me what that light in the sky was, therefore aliens." "You can't explain this speck in this photo, therefore another shooter."

Convoluted gibberish. Shots from the back and the front. That's all anyone needs to know to conclude a probably conspiracy.
 
Convoluted gibberish. Shots from the back and the front. That's all anyone needs to know to conclude a probably conspiracy.
Robert, why was the Zapruder film doctored by the CIA to cast doubt on LHO as the lone shooter if he was their patsy?
 
I've never claimed Hunt was a shooter, nor do I recall any other researchers or witnesses claiming such. But a co-conspirator? Perhaps. But I don't even say that, though others have though not the ones you have named.

Of course you will not say it because that would mean you would actually have take a stand on something and subscribe to a conspiracy theory.

You will not do this because you will pigeon-hole yourself and actually have to defend something substantial as supposed to your normal "whack-a-mole" nonsense that you bluster on about.

Maybe after you can free LHO, you can find those Romney voters that didn't have their votes counted.
 
I know, he doesn't even respond to my posts anymore since I asked it weeks ago.

In avoiding it and ignoring me he gives himself away.
I only need to ask it every now and again and any lurkers will see him for what he is, its far easier than posting walls of text rebutting his silly ideas.
 
I know, he doesn't even respond to my posts anymore since I asked it weeks ago.

In avoiding it and ignoring me he gives himself away.
I only need to ask it every now and again and any lurkers will see him for what he is, its far easier than posting walls of text rebutting his silly ideas.
I'll quote you if you like, but I think he has me on ignore also after I toasted him in the birth cert thread.
 
A consensus of opinion is probably the most irrational challenge you've made thus far.

Nope. We routinely test the strength of evidence for some affirmative claim by requiring the consensus upon it of twelve good persons and true, and upon their consensus pass judgment having real consequences. That your vaunted author-proponents can't even get their own ducks in a row speaks volumes for the strength of your case.

I observed that the JFK conspiracy theorists throw out a smattering of claims that collectively go nowhere. At first you seemed to object, throwing E. Howard Hunt out there as the example of just such a consensus. But now that you're on the hook to show its relevance, you've backpedaled: apparently now you admit there's a lack of consensus, but are now trying to argue that that's just fine.

Sorry, but to me it's not. For page after page after page you've told us that it's folly to believe the prevailing explanation. But you won't give us anything better. You can't.
 
I'll quote you if you like, but I think he has me on ignore also after I toasted him in the birth cert thread.
Oh he doesn't have me on ignore, he forgets himself occasionally and answers when I give him something to cling to.
Its just that question he ignores.
 
Convoluted gibberish.

Apparently "gibberish" is the new "baloney." By all means keep ignoring my posts. It will make it all the more amusing when you try to claim no one has answered you.

Shots from the back and the front. That's all anyone needs to know to conclude a probably conspiracy.

Yes, I know what your belief is. Restating it doesn't prove it. And since you clearly have no interest in addressing any of the arguments put to you, can you explain why you're different from a troll?
 
He is getting so soundly spanked in every thread he posts in, I'm surprised h doesn't have everyone on ignore.

Because then he wouldn't be getting any attention. You don't have to use the forum's ignore feature in order to trollishly ignore someone. You just have to quote their entire post and then make an irrelevant one-line comment.
 
Sorry, but to me it's not. For page after page after page you've told us that it's folly to believe the prevailing explanation. But you won't give us anything better. You can't.
I find myself in the same boat. RP refuses to present any alternative narrative, none, nada.

Instead, he nit picks and nothing more. And even the nits he attempts to pick are unicorns, leprechauns and tooth fairies.

Straight question for Robert Prey. What is your narrative for the events of that day?
 
Straight question for Robert Prey. What is your narrative for the events of that day?

Now you've done it. Stand by for another reset followed by 200 pages of nonsense, gibberish, wordgames, trolling and absolutely nothing of substance from Mr Prey.
 
I've never claimed Hunt was a shooter, nor do I recall any other researchers or witnesses claiming such.

Fair enough. I'm trying to determine why you think E. Howard Hunt is relevant to this discussion. You brought him up, but I can't see why. Tell us how he fits into your claims.

But a co-conspirator? Perhaps. But I don't even say that, though others have though not the ones you have named.

So you raise the issue of Hunt, but you won't tell us why, or whether you believe him or his claims. Just a page ago you said that "Mr. Expert" (by which I assume you're childishly referring to me) claimed the alleged deathbed confession "didn't count," and suggested this was irrational. Now you're trying to tell us that you yourself are not sure whether it counts or not. How does that not make you irrational by your own definition?

What's going on? You can't simultaneously chide your critics for supposedly disbelieving your evidence and then not take it seriously yourself. E. Howard Hunt named names. If you claim Hunt was telling the truth, then you have to believe the names he named. If so, provide evidence to support the confession. If not, explain why you can't keep your story straight regarding Hunt.
 
Real evidence? You mean like fake palm prints?

And as soon as you explain a method by which LATENT PRINTS (those are the ones formed from the residual moisture excreted from living skin, collected in a powder medium) can be faked post mortem in a funeral home your question will be relevant.

So far you have only discussed forms of taking IDENTIFICATION PRINTS for comparrison, such as ink and inklesss cards. So the obvious answer is "No, like the latent palmprints we know can not have been faked as you claim."
 
I've never claimed Hunt was a shooter, nor do I recall any other researchers or witnesses claiming such. But a co-conspirator? Perhaps. But I don't even say that, though others have though not the ones you have named.

Ok, so your response to Jays initial point that no other shooter has come forward, his secondary point about lack of concensus, yout fallacious claim that I and others deny that any other shooter has confessed, andyour subsequent post stating that when a murderer confesses the Police take action (that responded DIRECTLY to a post about Hunt) are all irrelevant?

Your post also seems to concede a lack of concensus. Well done.
 
Ok, so your response to Jays initial point that no other shooter has come forward, his secondary point about lack of concensus, yout fallacious claim that I and others deny that any other shooter has confessed, andyour subsequent post stating that when a murderer confesses the Police take action (that responded DIRECTLY to a post about Hunt) are all irrelevant?

Your post also seems to concede a lack of concensus. Well done.

False. False and False.
 
False. False and False.

Very well. If all those are false statements feel free to reconcile your seemingly mutual posts. Start with an easy one. What relevance is a man you have never claimed to be a shooter to the point Jay made about shooters confessing and why did you then comment to me about murderers confessing (and what if any police action resulted from the non-shootwer confession)?
 
Originally Posted by Robert Prey
A consensus of opinion is probably the most irrational challenge you've made thus far.

Nope. We routinely test the strength of evidence for some affirmative claim by requiring the consensus upon it .

In doing so, you double down on the egregious fallacy of Argument ad Populum, (popular appeal or appeal to the majority): "The fallacy of attempting to win popular assent to a conclusion by arousing the feeling and enthusiasms of the multitude."

This has nothing to do with the truth, unless you now concede that the earth really is flat, and that since the overwhelming majority of Americans believe JFK was murdered as the result of a conspiracy, then that is also the truth, in which case you are invited to surrender this wholly fallacious line of reasoning.
 
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