Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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Kaosium

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Once again, the thread has become quite lengthy, so here is another new continuation thread. This continues from Part Six. For further reference, see also Part Five, Part Four, Part Three, Part Two, and Part One.
Posted By: LashL


It's one, Kaosium, only one mitigation. The mitigation is from life to 24 years.
It was applied only once, and only on Guede's appeal; not on the first instance.
On his first instance he got life, which became 30 years for fast track reduction. If you read Micheli's report you might get it.

The second cut is not a mitigation, it's a reduction. It cuts down sentencing to 30 years when the penalty is life, and it cuts it down t 16 years if it's 24 years. It's the automatic reduction caused by the fast track option. it was applied only once (but the final effect changes depending on the original application of sentencing and mitigation).

Only one mitigation is what he got on appeal, from life (first instance) to 24 (second instance). Exactly the same of what Knox and Solelcito got.

Whether they're called mitigations (which amount to reductions) or reductions outright and which step of the abbreviated process they're officially applied doesn't really matter. What does matter is that the way Mignini prosecuted it led to a huge reduction in sentence for Rudy Guede, making true Barbie Nadeau's report of eating with Biscotti, Rudy's lawyer, and him getting a call saying he got a deal for Rudy.

Now, why wasn't there any appeal to the mitigations or advancing of aggravations in the Rudy Guede case?

And no way he could be found guilty of theft on appeal, he was charged and Micheli found him innocent.

And that's the proof of it all, Mignini didn't try to prosecute Rudy for the theft, in defiance of the evidence showing that even if Raffaele and Amanda were involved in the murder, Rudy was the one who ended up with the cash.

They weren't involved in the murder though, the whole case against Raffaele and Amanda is just more demented theorizing in defiance of the evidence.
 
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Lo, clouds

The reported reason was security of handling the item. The lab is in Rome, the item needed to be transported. But it was a cutting and pointed knife and the procedure for these items includes concern that the blade could cut or poke the bag. So it was unpacked and transferred into a rigid box.

Actually he never entered Meredith's room.

Gubbiotti testified he put on a pair of new gloves.
The search at the cottage occurred previously in the morning. The unpackaging and packaging of the knife occurred hours later.
SNIP
Unfortunately for your theory, I think it will be deemed unrealistic.
That could be taken into consideration as a hypotheses, let's say realistic, in statystical terms, if Gubbiotti was wearing a shirt spattered with the victim's blood while he was handling the knife. Or if he unpacked the knife while inside Meredith's bloody room.

Very, very weak. Really worrying for the defence if these are their arguments.
Assuming that there is even one scintilla of truth in what you say, then the problem was the way that it was packaged first, which was incompetent.

Do you have a citation for what Gubbiotti did and did not do?

You missed the point about the gloves. If he put on a new pair and touched his clothing, he could transfer DNA onto the gloves at that point.

Another weak argument from personal incredulity. The trouble is that the CSC would not listen to reason with respect to proper versus improper handling and analysis of DNA if Jesus Christ came down with clouds descending to tell them the truth about Adventitious DNA from wishful thinking.
 
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Actually I have spoken about sexual encounter between Knox and Guede.
The concept of "trade of sex for drugs" is reported by the police as the activity that the drug dealer was used to do with female students.
This is reported. But it is totally secondary and irrelevant to the scenario. I was actually not interested in the reason why Knox and Guede had a sexual meeting.

Before reflecting on your disinterest in why they had a sexual meeting, you are going to have to establish they had a sexual meeting, and your claim certainly cannot be based on anything the police "reported," unless you can also document that.

You instead picked up the mention of "sex for drugs" deal and you reported it as if it was the core of my reasoning. While instead it is absolutely irrelevant, it is there just because it belongs to the record about this particular drug dealer that used to have contacts with Knox.
It is reasonable to infer that his contacts with Knox had to do with sex (because this is what the police found out), or with drug exchange, or with both. But actually, this is alos irrelevant, because the only thing that logically matters is that there is evidence that Knox had repeated phone contacts with people of the very same environment to which also Rudy Guede belongs.

Oh, now she had repeated contacts? I thought she just had the number of a drug dealer in her phone. Can you provide the records to support your claim?

No no, that's false, the truth is I vehemently denied it. I denied it actually even implicitly, before you attempted to make such interpretation; because even in the most extreme scenario, that is the biggest implication that you could draw out from a "sex trade in exchange of drugs" scenario is that Guede at best could have been Knox's client.
But a client cannot be the pimp.

But you just swept away what I actually said, and you jumped head down into your attribution of "pimp" scenario.
Which is just obviously incompatible with what I had just said.<snip>

I also vehemently specified that Knox was not a prostitute, because she did that for fun and not for money or utility; so it would be unlikely and improper to even think tha Guede was a client. He was likely just a sexual partner like Daniel, Juve, Federico, Sollecito.

You claim Amanda had sex with Rudy, and you imply Amanda got drugs from Rudy, but you deny suggesting an exchange of sex for drugs. So you are saying Amanda and Rudy had basically the same type of relationship as Meredith and Giacomo, is that right?
 
dietrologia

Could someone be kind enough to explain what this word means? I can't find it on any online dictionary and Wikipedia redirects to "conspiracy theory" without any further reference or explanation. I would be interested if any website can be linked to which discusses uses of the word. Thanks!
Douglas Preston and Mario Spezi's book may be where I saw this term defined. The Economist wrote about this term, "The idea is that many Italians believe that the surface or official explanation for something can rarely be the real one. There's always something behind, or dietro, that surface. It's a great word."
 
Patrick Waring and investigative tunnel vision

I linked to the Patrick Waring case yesterday. Here is a terrific article about the Patrick Waring case in Australia (he was accused of rape), but it has more general relevance. The police were late in collecting evidence, and they ignored exculpatory evidence (the tunnel-vision effect) A defense expert, Robin Napper, was quoted: “Practices and procedures [in Australia] are years out of date. The police simply refuse to change.

Forensic science should be totally independent [but in Western Australia] the DPP, PathWest and the police are very much part of the same prosecutorial team …

[In Europe and the UK] the crime scene belongs to the scientists and the investigation belongs to the police.

[In Australia] police are missing key forensic evidence in every crime. The evidence is far too complex for police to collect.”
 
Mary H and katy-did, it is most interesting to read your posts. Rudy had a very tough upbringing although I am glad to see that a number of good people in Perugia came forward and tried to help him - teachers, basketball coach, and the wealthy family who took him in.

I would like to ask and encourage you to please share your thoughts on Mignini, Stefanoni, Comodi, Judge Massei. Also, the police who conducted the interrogation of Amanda and Raffaele and withhold what reaally occurred that night. Also, what do you think of the individuals who deliberately failed to record the interrogation or destroyed the recording?

Good question, Strozzi. When I use my standard of judging how unethical an act is according to how powerful the actor is, I have no problem arguing that the behavior of the people you mentioned is more unethical than Rudy's, who seems to have acted impulsively. But some will argue that the end result of Rudy's actions amounted to a greater evil than the end result of PLE's actions. And who am I to say that the rest of these schmoes have not acted impulsively?

It's probably most useful to leave judgments and a discussion of evil out of it altogether, and just look at the facts. Rudy did "this act," and when he did "that act," he caused "this harm." It would be in everyone's best interests, including his own, for him to be honest and try to make amends to the extent it is possible.

The same with PLE. They did "these acts," and when they did "those acts," they caused "these harms." It would be in everyone's best interests, including their own, for them to be honest and try to make amends to the extent it is possible.

In my opinion, the prospect of being thought of as evil is often what prevents perpetrators from coming clean.
 
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Douglas Preston and Mario Spezi's book may be where I saw this term defined. The Economist wrote about this term, "The idea is that many Italians believe that the surface or official explanation for something can rarely be the real one. There's always something behind, or dietro, that surface. It's a great word."

This is the beginning of Chapter 40 in Preston & Spezi's Monster of Florence:

“Dietrologia,” said Count Niccolò. “That is the only Italian word you need to know to understand the Monster of Florence investigation.”
We were having our usual lunch at Il Bordino. I was eating baccalà, salt cod, while the Count enjoyed stuffed arista.
“Dietrologia?” I asked.
“Dietro—behind. Logia—the study of.” The count spoke grandly, as if still in the lecture hall, his plummy English accent echoing in the cavelike interior of the restaurant. “Dietrologia is the idea that the obvious thing cannot be the truth. There is always something hidden behind, dietro. It isn’t quite what you Americans call conspiracy theory. Conspiracy theory implies theory, something uncertain, a possibility. The dietrologist deals only in fact.”

Excerpt From: Preston, Douglas. “The Monster of Florence.” Grand Central Publishing, 2008-06-1
 
Douglas Preston and Mario Spezi's book may be where I saw this term defined. The Economist wrote about this term, "The idea is that many Italians believe that the surface or official explanation for something can rarely be the real one. There's always something behind, or dietro, that surface. It's a great word."

Et tu, halides1?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9696102&postcount=9959

ETA: I hope I haven't scared you away. You know I am just teasing you. I have called out a few others lately for "gliding over" my posts, and if I didn't mention yours, they would have accused me of bestowing special privileges. ;)
 
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I still don't have it (I might have it soon) but I have a transcript of Sep. 2011 hearing where quoting from it were read in court.

An total index doesn't exist, but the chancellery depositation documents of negative controls from 2008 were addrssed as being in the file and cited by Alessandro Crini on Nov. 25-26.

I think I have the Oct. 4. 2008 hearing transcript. I think I quoted it to show Vecchiotti was lying on several things, like for example when she claims Stefanoni never talked about laboratory cleaning procedures, about using alcohol etc. In the Oct. 4. Stefanoni's testimony flatly contradicts Vecchiotti's claim that she never heard of this kind of information.

But you wrote:
… the hearing transcript exist as well as the chancellery records of what was deposited that day.

The hearing transcript is the October 8, 2008 transcript (I believe) but more importantly it is the "chancellery records of what was deposited that day" that I want to see. I am not interested in testimonies of anyone who states the negative controls were in the case file. I am interested in the actual proof they were in there so we can put this whole issue to rest. It would be a feather in the cap for the PGP if they really were in the case file, but the only way to show this is through the official chancellery record, backed up by the 08/10/08 transcript.

It is obvious the prosecutors in Italy can casually assert something to be true, without it necessarily being so. This is why those chancellery records are crucial.
 
You will have better luck if you look up dietrologia, as it is distinctly Italian. For example:



Another one is here.

Dietrologia is the opposite of Occam's Razor. The "sex game gone wrong" theory is an example of dietrologia.

Thanks!
 
Douglas Preston and Mario Spezi's book may be where I saw this term defined. The Economist wrote about this term, "The idea is that many Italians believe that the surface or official explanation for something can rarely be the real one. There's always something behind, or dietro, that surface. It's a great word."

Thanks also. Glad I asked now.
 
Before reflecting on your disinterest in why they had a sexual meeting, you are going to have to establish they had a sexual meeting, and your claim certainly cannot be based on anything the police "reported," unless you can also document that.



Oh, now she had repeated contacts? I thought she just had the number of a drug dealer in her phone. Can you provide the records to support your claim?



You claim Amanda had sex with Rudy, and you imply Amanda got drugs from Rudy, but you deny suggesting an exchange of sex for drugs. So you are saying Amanda and Rudy had basically the same type of relationship as Meredith and Giacomo, is that right?

Machiavelli is now departing from dietorolgy to simply asserting completely unfounded factoids.

Much like the way Mignini conducted the case against RS and AK, Machiavelli is simply making things up.

It's as you say, Mary_H. Machiavelli used to be content with the (also) unproven "Knox had the number of a drug dealer in her phone," ramping up the factoidness of this to what he now goes on about.

The dietrology will be when he starts in on why he didn't actually say what he said. It's good to have both a Fastball and a good curve in your repertoire!
 
Assuming that there is even one scintilla of truth in what you say, then the problem was the way that it was packaged first, which was incompetent.

Well but that occurred in Sollecito apartment.

Do you have a citation for what Gubbiotti did and did not do?

Well there is Gubiotti's testimony:
SG = Stefano Gubbiotti
GM = Giuliano Mignini
GCM = Giancarlo Massei

SG:
No, l'ispettore Finzi mi ha consegnato la busta, dopodichè io avevo preparato il materiale per la repertazione, naturalmente ero con i guanti anche io.
GM:
I guanti che usò quella mattina, aspetti, erano quelli che aveva usato per andare in Via della Pergola o erano nuovi?
SG:
No no, guardi io in Via della Pergola credo di aver cambiato i guanti almeno due volte.
GM:
E quindi, aspetti, quando lei ha repertato quel coltello aveva i guanti nuovi, li aveva messi poco prima?
SG:
Certamente
GCM:
Magari facciamo solo le domande, ecco. Quindi erano guanti... Come erano questi guanti?
SG:
Sono i nostri guanti che usiamo sempre.
GCM:
Dove li aveva presi?
SG:
Ce li abbiamo in ufficio.
GCM:
Li aveva usati in altre occasioni?
SG:
No, è impossibile anche riusarli perché dal momento che li toglie è impossibile rimetterli. Sono guanti in lattice che non...
GM:
Quindi lei si è messo prima i guanti, prima di fare ogni altra cosa?
SG:
Certamente.

Gubbiotti also explained that he only searched Amanda's room, collecting a few items. He looked at Filomena's bathroom from outside the door, and he stationed a few minutes in the kitchen area whil Barbadori was searching, before exiting.

GB:
Lei ha detto per quello che mi riguarda io ho fatto solo quella stanza, gli altri soggetti oltre Barbadori che mi ha detto le risulta oltre la singola stanza se hanno fatto altre attività?
SG:
No. Soltanto quella della perquisizione.
GB:
Poi il corridoio camminavate sul corridoio oppure no, nel corridoio?
SG:
Al termine della perquisizione di Amanda sono rimasto in cucina.
GB:
Sì, come ha fatto, una specie di salto o ha attraversato corridoio?
SG:
Certo che ho attraversato il corridoio.
GB:
E gli altri camminavano in questo corridoio o no?
SG:
L'attività della perquisizione della stanza di Meredith credo che era ancora in atto, io sono uscito dalla stanza di Amanda e mi sono portato sulla cucina, dopodichè sono entrato, mi sono affacciato sul bagno grande e poi sono uscito.
GB:
Degli altri lei non è grado di riferire cosa hanno fatto?
SG:
No.

You missed the point about the gloves. If he put on a new pair and touched his clothing, he could transfer DNA onto the gloves at that point.

If he has something like abudant large stains of biologic liquids from Meredith's on his clothes. If he was wearing a shirt spattered with Meredith's blood, that scenario of transferring DNA after touching clothes becomes reasonable. Otherwise, there is a statistical fence still before you.

Another weak argument from personal incredulity. The trouble is that the CSC would not listen to reason with respect to proper versus improper handling and analysis of DNA if Jesus Christ came down with clouds descending to tell them the truth about Adventitious DNA from wishful thinking.

Certainly, the Cassazione would consider only an argument based on statistical probability. If you had an argument which is a factual element, a proof of a circumstance, that makes the scenario of transfer of Meredith's DNA become a probable event, that would be a good argument about this piece of evidence. But there is nothing such as this evidence. The SC considers an argument based on probable versus improbable, while won't consider an argument based on a dycothomy "best practice" versus "improper practice".

As for incredulity, well nobody is bond to just believe any unproven theory. If you have like scientific literature expressing the phenomenon of tertiary DNA transfer in terms of probability, we would have a datum. As for the present state of knowldge, we know that tertiary transfer from microscopic sources, without even contact with biological liquids but through "air", is an inherently improbable event, and we can appreciate there is a number of clues about such improbability. Maybe improbable to the point of never having been observed.
You call me "incredulous" because I refuse to acknowledge it as "the most probable scenario". But I don't see any reasonable ground why I should consider that as something probable.
 
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Certainly, the Cassazione would consider only an argument based on statistical probability. If you had an argument which is a factual element, a proof of a circumstance, that makes the scenario of transfer of Meredith's DNA become a probable event, that would be a good argument about this piece of evidence. But there is nothing such as this evidence. The SC considers an argument based on probable versus improbable, while won't consider an argument based on a dycothomy "best practice" versus "improper practice".

As for incredulity, well nobody is bond to just believe any unproven theory. If you have like scientific literature expressing the phenomenon of tertiary DNA transfer in terms of probability, we would have a datum. As for the present state of knowldge, we know that tertiary transfer from microscopic sources, without even contact with biological liquids but through "air", is an inherently improbable event, and we can appreciate there is a number of clues about such improbability. Maybe improbable to the point of never having been observed.
You call me "incredulous" because I refuse to acknowledge it as "the most probable scenario". But I don't see any reasonable ground why I should consider that as something probable.

This should be read again and again. The only thing worse that if this is complete bollocks, would be if Machiavelli is actually describing how the ISC works. It is Byzantine.
 
Before reflecting on your disinterest in why they had a sexual meeting, you are going to have to establish they had a sexual meeting, and your claim certainly cannot be based on anything the police "reported," unless you can also document that.

I don't have to establish anything actually. But I can well assume it is reasonable to believe a reporting by Il Corriere dell'Umbria which cites a police report, and it is reasonable on my part to believe my direct sources.
Knox had phone contacts with a a drug dealer who - incidentally - was also reported by the police as having the habit of giving cocaine to female stutents in exchange for sex.
I don't know how these elements are linked together. What I believe we may be all reasonably sure about is that Amanda Knox had contact with this person and with the environment of drug dealers hanging around in Piazza Grimana.

Oh, now she had repeated contacts? I thought she just had the number of a drug dealer in her phone. Can you provide the records to support your claim?

Yes they also had phone contacts. They also rang each other the day subsequent to the crime (that day they did not talk however).

You claim Amanda had sex with Rudy, and you imply Amanda got drugs from Rudy, but you deny suggesting an exchange of sex for drugs. So you are saying Amanda and Rudy had basically the same type of relationship as Meredith and Giacomo, is that right?

Well, actually Meredith had an exclusive relation, which tended to remain stable through many weeks, as for Knox and Guede I was thinking more to a casual episode rather similar to those Knox had with Daniel, Federico & Juve, or with the hypothetical encounter with the drug dealer. However I am not interested in judgeing what a "relation" is as opposed to an "episode". If Knox had a "relation" with Guede, I'd call that a relation "Knox-style" (Federico, Daniel, Juve etc.) rather than a "Meredith-style" relation.
 
I don't have to establish anything actually. But I can well assume it is reasonable to believe a reporting by Il Corriere dell'Umbria which cites a police report, and it is reasonable on my part to believe my direct sources.
Knox had phone contacts with a a drug dealer who - incidentally - was also reported by the police as having the habit of giving cocaine to female stutents in exchange for sex.


Ah, the old "reported by the police" nonsense again, huh?! The police also "reported" that a so-called "critical" sweater of Knox's was missing. Only it was lying on her bed in the cottage all along. Whoops! The police also "reported" that there was a receipt for bleach in Sollecito's house, dated after the murder. No such receipt ever existed - it was probably a pizza receipt. Whoops!

Most sceptical, logical people might therefore prefer not to believe anything "reported by the police" unless and until it is independently corroborated with tangible proof. Just sayin'....


I don't know how these elements are linked together. What I believe we may be all reasonably sure about is that Amanda Knox had contact with this person and with the environment of drug dealers hanging around in Piazza Grimana.


Ah, yes: confirmation bias rears its ugly head once again. What I believe sceptical, rational people can be "reasonably sure about" is that there is a suggestion (and nothing more than that) that Knox had telephone contact with someone who also dealt drugs. Was everyone who had Jimmy Savile's mobile number, and who communicated with him in that manner, involved in his illegal sex abuse activities? I think that sceptical, rational people who think clearly and objectively might see what I mean here. Others' mileage may vary......


Yes they also had phone contacts. They also rang each other the day subsequent to the crime (that day they did not talk however).


Ah yes, that's from the phone records that are in public evidence....... errrrm..... where, precisely? Or is this more stuff "reported by the police"? I imagine that they called each other the day after the murder so that Knox could boast to him about the crime, and to order up her repeat supply of Bolivian marching powder, eh? You know: the cocaine that did not show up in any blood or hair tests. The magic cocaine :D


Well, actually Meredith had an exclusive relation, which tended to remain stable through many weeks, as for Knox and Guede I was thinking more to a casual episode rather similar to those Knox had with Daniel, Federico & Juve, or with the hypothetical encounter with the drug dealer. However I am not interested in judgeing what a "relation" is as opposed to an "episode". If Knox had a "relation" with Guede, I'd call that a relation "Knox-style" (Federico, Daniel, Juve etc.) rather than a "Meredith-style" relation.


Yes: Knox probably had sex with a different man every day of every week she was in Perugia. Who cares that we have no evidence whatsoever that this was the case, nor that we have Knox's list - written in fear and confinement - of all of her sexual partners of her whole life. Who needs "evidence", eh?! Let's just go with what we feel, with what we want Knox to "be". That's good, rational, sceptical thinking, isn't it?! :rolleyes:
 
OK... Massei and "logically correct" cant be used in the same sentence... in any country of the world cept Italy. There anything goes... Ship captains steer 100 millions worth of ship and passengers into rocks that have been charted for centuries I expect....oh and then the Italian trips and falls into a lifeboat meanwhile 30 plus of his passengers are dying. Also the "logical" land of arresting scientists for failing to predict an earthquake. The double body swap and shrunken pants of a Mason which leads to the arrest and nightmare of a family and friends of a poor suicide victim...should we bother with Sara Scazzi's confessed killer who remains free while the innocent aunt and cousin are in jail? Or the whole village that joined the case and spit on...yes they spit on people in Italy...the cousin and aunt....well the heathens also slap girls while questioning them so I guess nothing should be a surprise...all from the ancestors that crucified Christ! More proof that evolution is a lie. Italy seems to be devolving.

Randy, does this mean you are backing out on your agreement to buy my time share in Italy? :D

Strozzi
 
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Ah, yes: confirmation bias rears its ugly head once again. What I believe sceptical, rational people can be "reasonably sure about" is that there is a suggestion (and nothing more than that) that Knox had telephone contact with someone who also dealt drugs. (...)

No, no. Just a moment, you are very wrong here. This is not a suggestion: it is a fact that the drug dealer had phone contacts with Knox. Because in fact, he was investigated and charge of drug dealing because of these phone contact. I mean the police found him and they investigated him because they found his number in Knox's phone traffic. That was the element on which they started an investigation which lead them to find out three drug dealers.
 
No, no. Just a moment, you are very wrong here. This is not a suggestion: it is a fact that the drug dealer had phone contacts with Knox. Because in fact, he was investigated and charge of drug dealing because of these phone contact. I mean the police found him and they investigated him because they found his number in Knox's phone traffic. That was the element on which they started an investigation which lead them to find out three drug dealers.
Apart from this possibly showing one of Amanda's phone acquaintances might have been a "drug dealer", as well as knowing Amanda, I can't see any relevance to any committed crime. Many here are likely to have children to whom this vague innuendo could be attached, but I realise this is a pure diversion from the murder case. Unless that number was Rudy's, zilch nada nil relevance.
 
Apart from this possibly showing one of Amanda's phone acquaintances might have been a "drug dealer", as well as knowing Amanda, I can't see any relevance to any committed crime. Many here are likely to have children to whom this vague innuendo could be attached, but I realise this is a pure diversion from the murder case. Unless that number was Rudy's, zilch nada nil relevance.

And, of course, zilch nada nil evidence. Just more assertion.
 
And, of course, zilch nada nil evidence. Just more assertion.


No no no! The police said it was true! You believe the Perugia police don't you?! After all, they've never been known to be liars, dissemblers and thugs before, have they?!
 
No no no! The police said it was true! You believe the Perugia police don't you?! After all, they've never been known to be liars, dissemblers and thugs before, have they?!

Actually, the newspaper said that the police said it was true. That makes it doubly reliable!
 
Whether they're called mitigations (which amount to reductions) or reductions outright and which step of the abbreviated process they're officially applied doesn't really matter. What does matter is that the way Mignini prosecuted it led to a huge reduction in sentence for Rudy Guede, making true Barbie Nadeau's report of eating with Biscotti, Rudy's lawyer, and him getting a call saying he got a deal for Rudy.

Kaosium, I think you understand that you lost all arguments. You say the logical steps in between how to come to the reduction don't matter; but actually they do matter a lot to your reasoning. They are your reasoning. And they are wrong.
Now, because you lost them, you want to leap across them to get to a conclusion directly, without any reasoning in between: basically your only assertion is that the Guede final reduction is evidence by itself, you believe it is evidence of a particular "way Mignini prosecuted Guede". Basically you admit you have no argument.
You don't have any evidence that Mignini prosecuted Guede in any different way. You only have evidence of the contrary. But you decide to leap across all the facts, and you kind of deduce the existence of an event "Mignini prosecuted Guede in a particular favourable way" by making it stem directly, and solely, from the simple existence of Guede's final reduced sentencing, and from nothing else.

Now, why wasn't there any appeal to the mitigations or advancing of aggravations in the Rudy Guede case?

Guede got 30 years in the first instance. Do you understand that? 30 years!
they won. You don't appeal something that you won. It would bee like shooting at your foot.
It means the prosecution won their case completely in terms of sentencing. They obtained the maximum. It's almost the maximum that any accused can possibly get in an anbbreviated trial. A life sentencing on abbreviated trial it's something so rare, almost unique, which would require some extreme aggravation, like a cold-minded premeditation by a professional with terrorist purposes, or killing a second person, something like that, something really extreme.
A common criminal doesn't get life on abbreviated trials. Not even a murderer. Normally, not even a terrorist. It's something very rare. And in this case, the scenario was that of a troubled young person who took part in committing a non premeditated murder together with other people, and who returned back to Italy by train to give himself up to the police. This is a common crime. He was not the mastermind and he was not even the person who gave the fatal blow, in the judges' minds.
How can you reasonably expect that he would get more than 30 years despite a short track trial?
Mignini and Comodi obviously did not appeal agaisnt a 30 years sentencing.
But even if they appealed to increase it to life, that wouldn't have changed anything in the reality of events. The Prosecutor General in fact demanded the Borsini Belardi court to confirm the first instance sentencing, 30 years. Had Mignin and Comodi appealed, they (Mignini and Comodi) could have proposed the judge to increase the sentencing to life, but the only difference would have been such phonetic exercise.
The fact is the prosecution general lost their argument for the 30 years sentencing. They lost it. They asked 30 years again (a request that could have been legally founded) and the judges decided otherwise. They lost it because the defence won, and they won partly because Knox and Sollecito got their mitigations too; the judges of Borsini-Belardi court opted for mitigation so the prosecution would have equally lost the argument for a life sentencing (whch would have been legally unfounded).

And that's the proof of it all, Mignini didn't try to prosecute Rudy for the theft, in defiance of the evidence showing that even if Raffaele and Amanda were involved in the murder, Rudy was the one who ended up with the cash.

But what are you talking about, since Mignini charged Guede with theft, and Micheli found him innocent for lack of proof?
And why do you think that a petty offence like theft (which is not theft but even pettier illicit appropriation, since you can't commit a theft in detriment of a dead person) would have been determinant? Guede would have got 30 years anyway, no more than that. Think about that Solelcito and Knox were found guilty of committing sexual violence, and then sidtrackings (staging, cleanup) and calunnia in continuance, and even illicit appropriation, and despite these aggravations they did not get life. And now Crini is requesting to remove generic mitigation, yet he is still not asking for life. And they are even in a regular, expensive and renewed process, not in a short track.
 
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<snip>Well, actually Meredith had an exclusive relation, which tended to remain stable through many weeks, as for Knox and Guede I was thinking more to a casual episode rather similar to those Knox had with Daniel, Federico & Juve, or with the hypothetical encounter with the drug dealer.

What you were thinking was obvious; that's why I asked the question.

However I am not interested in judgeing what a "relation" is as opposed to an "episode". If Knox had a "relation" with Guede, I'd call that a relation "Knox-style" (Federico, Daniel, Juve etc.) rather than a "Meredith-style" relation.

May I ask how you know Meredith had not had several sexual encounters during her first weeks in Perugia? Giacomo did not consider their relationship mutually exclusive; maybe Meredith didn't, either. She also may have had more boyfriends in England than Amanda had in Seattle.
 
Kaosium, I think you understand that you lost all arguments. You say the logical steps in between how to come to the reduction don't matter; but actually they do matter a lot to your reasoning. They are your reasoning. And they are wrong.
Now, because you lost them, you want to leap across them to get to a conclusion directly, without any reasoning in between: basically your only assertion is that the Guede final reduction is evidence by itself, you believe it is evidence of a particular "way Mignini prosecuted Guede". Basically you admit you have no argument.
You don't have any evidence that Mignini prosecuted Guede in any different way.

Kaosium has "lost the arguments" perhaps only in the Italian courts, which is the jurisdiction of record in declaring winners and losers.

What Kaosium is arguing, though, is not winning and losing, but right and wrong.
 
Machiavelli, I have several questions and ask for you insight how the Italian justice system works.

If Guede stated in priviliged discussions with his attorney that he alone committed the crime or that he was accompanied by another and it was not Knox and Sollecito - and the discussions were overheard by microphones in the room where they met - what could prison officials, police or Mignini do with the information?

The detectives could use it to make strategic decisions in their investigation. But the prosecutors could do nothing with the recording or testimony in court. It could not be entered and not be used by the judges in court.

If Guede stated to Mignini or the police that he alone committed the crime or that he was accompanied by another and it was not Knox or Sollecito, would Mignini or the police be obligated to disclose this a) to the court trying Guede? b) to the courts trying Knox and Sollecito?

As for a), they would be absolutely prevented by the law from doing this.
As for b), they could not inform the court about them, but the situation may change depending if the prosecutors are currently prosecuting Knox and Sollecito, or if they are no longer doing that. If they are still prosecuting them, they may take the elements in account in drawing their own arguments, based on their own professional ethics. If instead its another court now prosecuting them, they can't interfere.
 
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And in this case, the scenario was that of a troubled young person who took part in committing a non premeditated murder together with other people, and who returned back to Italy by train to give himself up to the police.


I had to draw out this little gem from Machiavelli's post.

Firstly, I'm lost as to why the suggestion that Guede was "troubled" should be of any relevance whatsoever to his sentencing. I'm hearing unpleasant resonances of "poor Rudy" I'm afraid....

Secondly, it's of course arrant nonsense that Guede "returned back to Italy by train to give himself up to the police". He was arrested by German police on November 20th for travelling without a ticket. I am guessing he was trying to return to Italy because he had run out of the money he stole from Meredith, and he was a fish out of water in Germany. Regardless, there's absolutely zero reason to believe that he was returning to give himself up to police (but of course ample reason why Guede might subsequently make this false claim).

Guede was held in custody in Germany once the Germans realised Guede was wanted in Italy for murder. He was extradited back to Italy on 6th December.

Lastly, even if Guede had been returning to give himself up (which he wasn't), I suggest that this would easily be offset by the twin facts that he went out dancing merely a couple of hours after murdering Meredith Kercher, and that he fled Perugia within 36 hours of the murder. In fact, given that there's zero credible evidence that he intended to "give himself up", his dancing and flight to Germany can clearly be added as aggravating factors.

Poor Rudy..............
 
I had to draw out this little gem from Machiavelli's post.

Firstly, I'm lost as to why the suggestion that Guede was "troubled" should be of any relevance whatsoever to his sentencing. I'm hearing unpleasant resonances of "poor Rudy" I'm afraid....

Secondly, it's of course arrant nonsense that Guede "returned back to Italy by train to give himself up to the police". He was arrested by German police on November 20th for travelling without a ticket. I am guessing he was trying to return to Italy because he had run out of the money he stole from Meredith, and he was a fish out of water in Germany. Regardless, there's absolutely zero reason to believe that he was returning to give himself up to police (but of course ample reason why Guede might subsequently make this false claim).

Guede was held in custody in Germany once the Germans realised Guede was wanted in Italy for murder. He was extradited back to Italy on 6th December.

Lastly, even if Guede had been returning to give himself up (which he wasn't), I suggest that this would easily be offset by the twin facts that he went out dancing merely a couple of hours after murdering Meredith Kercher, and that he fled Perugia within 36 hours of the murder. In fact, given that there's zero credible evidence that he intended to "give himself up", his dancing and flight to Germany can clearly be added as aggravating factors.

Poor Rudy..............

Rudy was acknowledged to be returning to Italy, he was in fact captured in Koblenz on a train to Milan. He could have opposed to his extradition to Italy, instead he accepted. He had said he was going to return to Italy to give himself up to the police, he said that on his Skype conversation to Benedetti, said he would take a train to Italy, and what he did is consistent with what he said. There is no evidence to believe the contrary, and in dubio pro reo.

Now, the things that you'd like to pin on him as "aggravating factors", might be seen as aggravation in some jurisdictions maybe, but once again here it appears you reveal a poor knowledge about the specifics of the Italian system.
Running away is not an aggravating factor.
The other factors that you dismiss (like being "troubled") are instead relevant.

These apparently small mitigating things are determinant for a judge, especially if it's about deciding on an extreme aggravation scenario such as one that would imply life on a short track trial.
 
(...)
May I ask how you know Meredith had not had several sexual encounters during her first weeks in Perugia? Giacomo did not consider their relationship mutually exclusive; maybe Meredith didn't, either. She also may have had more boyfriends in England than Amanda had in Seattle.

Look, these are examples of what I really don't appreciate about your approach to discussion, why I always see your arguments as not intellectually honest.
I don't know what Meredith did with other guys. But you asked about whether a casual sexual encoutner was the same thing as the Meredith-Giacomo relation. I answered, well, it is apparently not exactly the same thing, if we want to be pedantic. But it doesn't matter, and shouldn't matter, we are not judgemental about private behaviours.
Then you come back again on the topic of Meredith's private life - or better with speculations about what could be the unknown part of Meredith private life.
I don't think this line of discussion on your part makes any sense.
Are you contending that a scenario of a meeting between Knox and Guede is unreasonable? Because if you have something to say in terms of evidence that such scenario is unreasonable, that would be the only subject of relevance in a discussion about this point.
 
Look, these are examples of what I really don't appreciate about your approach to discussion, why I always see your arguments as not intellectually honest.
I don't know what Meredith did with other guys. But you asked about whether a casual sexual encoutner was the same thing as the Meredith-Giacomo relation. I answered, well, it is apparently not exactly the same thing, if we want to be pedantic. But it doesn't matter, and shouldn't matter, we are not judgemental about private behaviours.
Then you come back again on the topic of Meredith's private life - or better with speculations about what could be the unknown part of Meredith private life.
I don't think this line of discussion on your part makes any sense.
Are you contending that a scenario of a meeting between Knox and Guede is unreasonable? Because if you have something to say in terms of evidence that such scenario is unreasonable, that would be the only subject of relevance in a discussion about this point.

The point is, the case for guilt depends on rumor, gossip and hearsay, while the case for innocence demands rigorous adherence to facts and facts only. If you are not going to refrain from speculation about Amanda, then you should not refrain from speculation about Meredith.

There is nothing more intellectually dishonest than claiming not to be judgmental about private behaviors while simultaneously pointing out differences between Amanda and Meredith's sexual behaviors in a way that supports the prosecution's case that Amanda's sexual behavior is compatible with being a murderer while Meredith's sexual behavior is compatible with being a victim. That is the claim the original case relied on and that is the claim you continue to rely on, regardless of how many times you ask, "Who, me?"
 
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Rudy was acknowledged to be returning to Italy, he was in fact captured in Koblenz on a train to Milan. He could have opposed to his extradition to Italy, instead he accepted. He had said he was going to return to Italy to give himself up to the police, he said that on his Skype conversation to Benedetti, said he would take a train to Italy, and what he did is consistent with what he said. There is no evidence to believe the contrary, and in dubio pro reo.

Now, the things that you'd like to pin on him as "aggravating factors", might be seen as aggravation in some jurisdictions maybe, but once again here it appears you reveal a poor knowledge about the specifics of the Italian system.
Running away is not an aggravating factor.
The other factors that you dismiss (like being "troubled") are instead relevant.

These apparently small mitigating things are determinant for a judge, especially if it's about deciding on an extreme aggravation scenario such as one that would imply life on a short track trial.


Oh dear.

To me it's abundantly obvious that if Guede was returning to Italy when he was arrested aboard the train in Germany, it was because he had run out of money and decided to take his chances on his "home turf". Regardless, there is absolutely ZERO credible evidence to suggest that Guede was returning back to Perugia to give himself up to the police. It's somewhat astonishing that some people are too blind to see how it would be convenient for Guede to subsequently claim that this had been his intention.

I also find it astonishing that someone might see Guede's acquiescence with extradition as a "plus point": he would have had legal advice that his extradition was absolutely inevitable, and that a refusal to cooperate would only have meant a longer stay in a German prison and several court appearances, at the end of which he would without doubt have been extradited anyway.

And thanks for tutoring me in "Italian law". So it's not an aggravating factor to flee the country following a crime of which you are subsequently convicted? But yet apparently it is a mitigating factor if you claim you were returning from the country to which you had fled, in order to give yourself up (even when there's no credible evidence that this was your true motivation for returning to Italy)?

PS: Perhaps Machiavelli (or anyone else for that matter) would be so kind as to point me to the part of the transcript of Guede's Skype conversation with Benedetti in which Guede states that he is going to return to Italy to give himself up to the police.

You see, my problem is that the only relevant part of the conversation that I can currently find is this:

Benedetti:
But if you have nothing to do with it why don't you come back? I'll help you to find a good lawyer who can clear things up.

Guede:
I'm afraid. But I don't want to stay in Germany, I'm black and if the police catch me I don't know what they might do to me. I prefer Italian jails.


And that doesn't sound at all like Guede saying he's coming back to Italy to give himself up (unless the reader has no reasoning skills and an inbuilt bias of some sort....). But perhaps I'm missing another part of the Skype conversation in which Guede does explicitly say he is going to return to Italy to give himself up to the police. I don't know.


PPS: Machavelli's argument of "in dubio pro reo" is not relevant here, since Guede's claim is clearly a self-serving one. And ironically this same legal standard doesn't ever seem to be applied by Machiavelli (or pretty much any other pro-guilt commentator) to Knox or Sollecito. Funny, that.......
 
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I don't think this line of discussion on your part makes any sense.
Are you contending that a scenario of a meeting between Knox and Guede is unreasonable? Because if you have something to say in terms of evidence that such scenario is unreasonable, that would be the only subject of relevance in a discussion about this point.

This is where your reasoning makes no sense.

Yes, it IS unreasonable to continue to speculate about "a meeting between Knox and Guede." This is especially true in the context of a murder trial, where it is not required just to suggest that this is "reasonable", it is required to prove that there is any indication that it ever happened.

So far you have Guede being Knox's pimp..... er, oh, check that. You have it as Knox exchanging sex for drugs... er check that.

I'm actually now not interested in how to choose to characterize their non-existent "meeting." The prosecution should not be allowed to speculate that something is reasonable to assume, or rasonable to assert apart from any evidence there'd been a meeting - at least a meeting apart from the known chance encounters when they were with others and barely knew of each other's existence.

You have them consorting to commit murder. The point is there is NO evidence they ever consorted to commit murder, aside from the fact that they EVER "met" each other in the normal sense of that term - esp. in the sense you are using it.

It is not about asserting that there is evidene to find that their meeting is unreasonable - in normal judicial systems, it is up to a prosecutor to prove that they met - or else why even bother trying to coerce Curatolo into saying so?

Your reasoning in the context of a murder trial is completely unreasonable.
 
Can the mods explain why these three posts rated deletion?

This should be read again and again. The only thing worse that if this is complete bollocks, would be if Machiavelli is actually describing how the ISC works. It is Byzantine.

Kaosium has "lost the arguments" perhaps only in the Italian courts, which is the jurisdiction of record in declaring winners and losers. What Kaosium is arguing, though, is not winning and losing, but right and wrong.

Machiavelli is now departing from dietorolgy to simply asserting completely unfounded factoids. Much like the way Mignini conducted the case against RS and AK, Machiavelli is simply making things up. It's as you say, Mary_H. Machiavelli used to be content with the (also) unproven "Knox had the number of a drug dealer in her phone," ramping up the factoidness of this to what he now goes on about. The dietrology will be when he starts in on why he didn't actually say what he said. It's good to have both a Fastball and a good curve in your repertoire!
 
Can the mods explain why these three posts rated deletion?

This should be read again and again. The only thing worse that if this is complete bollocks, would be if Machiavelli is actually describing how the ISC works. It is Byzantine.

Kaosium has "lost the arguments" perhaps only in the Italian courts, which is the jurisdiction of record in declaring winners and losers. What Kaosium is arguing, though, is not winning and losing, but right and wrong.

Machiavelli is now departing from dietorolgy to simply asserting completely unfounded factoids. Much like the way Mignini conducted the case against RS and AK, Machiavelli is simply making things up. It's as you say, Mary_H. Machiavelli used to be content with the (also) unproven "Knox had the number of a drug dealer in her phone," ramping up the factoidness of this to what he now goes on about. The dietrology will be when he starts in on why he didn't actually say what he said. It's good to have both a Fastball and a good curve in your repertoire!

They weren't deleted; a new thread has been started and they were moved to it. Scroll up this page and you will see them. (I had the same thought when I saw my inbox).
 
Can the mods explain why these three posts rated deletion?

This should be read again and again. The only thing worse that if this is complete bollocks, would be if Machiavelli is actually describing how the ISC works. It is Byzantine.

Kaosium has "lost the arguments" perhaps only in the Italian courts, which is the jurisdiction of record in declaring winners and losers. What Kaosium is arguing, though, is not winning and losing, but right and wrong.

Machiavelli is now departing from dietorolgy to simply asserting completely unfounded factoids. Much like the way Mignini conducted the case against RS and AK, Machiavelli is simply making things up. It's as you say, Mary_H. Machiavelli used to be content with the (also) unproven "Knox had the number of a drug dealer in her phone," ramping up the factoidness of this to what he now goes on about. The dietrology will be when he starts in on why he didn't actually say what he said. It's good to have both a Fastball and a good curve in your repertoire!


Relax! Not deleted: just moved from the "part six" thread to the new "part seven" thread, in order to facilitate continuity of discussion on the new thread.

I got a similar - but brief - reaction when I saw that two of my posts had been moved, but quickly realised that they too had merely been transferred from the now-old thread to the shiny new one :)
 
Relax! Not deleted: just moved from the "part six" thread to the new "part seven" thread, in order to facilitate continuity of discussion on the new thread.

I got a similar - but brief - reaction when I saw that two of my posts had been moved, but quickly realised that they too had merely been transferred from the now-old thread to the shiny new one :)

My apologies to the mods!

My bad.

I am thanking the Lord Almighty I didn't type what I was thinking!

Again, apologies to the mods!
 
The point is, the case for guilt depends on rumor, gossip and hearsay, while the case for innocence demands rigorous adherence to facts and facts only. If you are not going to refrain from speculation about Amanda, then you should not refrain from speculation about Meredith.

There is nothing more intellectually dishonest than claiming not to be judgmental about private behaviors while simultaneously pointing out differences between Amanda and Meredith's sexual behaviors in a way that supports the prosecution's case that Amanda's sexual behavior is compatible with being a murderer while Meredith's sexual behavior is compatible with being a victim. That is the claim the original case relied on and that is the claim you continue to rely on, regardless of how many times you ask, "Who, me?"

Second all of that. If there had been a sexual relationship/encounter/episode of any sort between Amanda and Guede, it would be worth knowing about for its possible relevance to the case, imo. There wasn't. There is nothing anywhere in any record to suggest that such a thing ever happened, because it never did.

Since that's the case, her sexuality ought to be just as much off limits as that of Meredith. Instead Amanda's life is seen as fair game for the hunters. Somehow she's made some sort of peace with this, I suppose, but it's infuriating, sexist, and cruel.
 
Kaosium, I think you understand that you lost all arguments. You say the logical steps in between how to come to the reduction don't matter; but actually they do matter a lot to your reasoning. They are your reasoning. And they are wrong.
Now, because you lost them, you want to leap across them to get to a conclusion directly, without any reasoning in between: basically your only assertion is that the Guede final reduction is evidence by itself, you believe it is evidence of a particular "way Mignini prosecuted Guede". Basically you admit you have no argument.

Nah, it just means the Byzantine machinations of the Italian Court System don't really interest me and it doesn't matter much that I may have some terminology wrong. I do recognize when my argument is dodged and what I get back amounts to semantic quibbling however.

You don't have any evidence that Mignini prosecuted Guede in any different way. You only have evidence of the contrary. But you decide to leap across all the facts, and you kind of deduce the existence of an event "Mignini prosecuted Guede in a particular favourable way" by making it stem directly, and solely, from the simple existence of Guede's final reduced sentencing, and from nothing else.

Everything that happened afterward was based on the evidence Mignini presented in court in Rudy's trial. The result of the rest of his appeals process flowed from the case Mignini brought against him, and also ended up affecting Raffaele and Amanda's trial as well, including that they had to stand trial at all.

My evidence for this can be summed up quite simply from the fact that Rudy was cleared of the theft and Raffaele and Amanda were convicted of it despite the evidence. Again: Rudy left his DNA all over and around the owner of what was stolen, including her purse, and he was the one who really needed money and stuff to sell and they did not. Then there's the recent thefts Rudy was involved in that Mignini failed to prosecute, despite him piling charges on Raffaele and Amanda as well as their families on specious evidential grounds.


Guede got 30 years in the first instance. Do you understand that? 30 years!
they won. You don't appeal something that you won. It would bee like shooting at your foot.

It means the prosecution won their case completely in terms of sentencing. They obtained the maximum. It's almost the maximum that any accused can possibly get in an anbbreviated trial. A life sentencing on abbreviated trial it's something so rare, almost unique, which would require some extreme aggravation, like a cold-minded premeditation by a professional with terrorist purposes, or killing a second person, something like that, something really extreme.

A common criminal doesn't get life on abbreviated trials. Not even a murderer. Normally, not even a terrorist. It's something very rare. And in this case, the scenario was that of a troubled young person who took part in committing a non premeditated murder together with other people, and who returned back to Italy by train to give himself up to the police. This is a common crime. He was not the mastermind and he was not even the person who gave the fatal blow, in the judges' minds.

Because of the way Mignini prosecuted it! He was the one responsible for adducing the evidence in court and he did so in a way that excused Rudy Guede from participating much in the crime, despite all the evidence that would objectively place him in the forefront (being as he was the only one involved that would kinda figure) but even someone who wanted to include Raffaele and Amanda could have prosecuted the case against Rudy fairly, and Mignini most certainly did not do that.

How can you reasonably expect that he would get more than 30 years despite a short track trial?

If it is not possible that means expecting a (final) sentence against anyone that amounts to more than the 16 years Rudy got is basically impossible, and we both know that isn't true. Taking fast track cannot be a guarantee of a mere 16 year sentence.

Mignini and Comodi obviously did not appeal agaisnt a 30 years sentencing.
But even if they appealed to increase it to life, that wouldn't have changed anything in the reality of events. The Prosecutor General in fact demanded the Borsini Belardi court to confirm the first instance sentencing, 30 years. Had Mignin and Comodi appealed, they (Mignini and Comodi) could have proposed the judge to increase the sentencing to life, but the only difference would have been such phonetic exercise.

The fact is the prosecution general lost their argument for the 30 years sentencing. They lost it. They asked 30 years again (a request that could have been legally founded) and the judges decided otherwise. They lost it because the defence won, and they won partly because Knox and Sollecito got their mitigations too; the judges of Borsini-Belardi court opted for mitigation so the prosecution would have equally lost the argument for a life sentencing (whch would have been legally unfounded).

How about a more likely answer: they won because Mignini tanked the evidence against Rudy in his trial. What are the ones involved in the rest of the fast track process to rely on if the proper evidence is not adduced in the original trial?


But what are you talking about, since Mignini charged Guede with theft, and Micheli found him innocent for lack of proof?

Despite all the real evidence of it above, that's damned curious as is the fact Raffaele and Amanda were convicted of it despite no evidence (on that charge). None, Machiavelli, none.

What I meant by 'not prosecuting' was that he didn't try to get a conviction on the theft charge, but the way he did it effectively cleared him of ever being convicted of it, on that specific charge at least. Did he appeal that acquittal? ;)


And why do you think that a petty offence like theft (which is not theft but even pettier illicit appropriation, since you can't commit a theft in detriment of a dead person) would have been determinant? Guede would have got 30 years anyway, no more than that. Think about that Solelcito and Knox were found guilty of committing sexual violence, and then sidtrackings (staging, cleanup) and calunnia in continuance, and even illicit appropriation, and despite these aggravations they did not get life. And now Crini is requesting to remove generic mitigation, yet he is still not asking for life. And they are even in a regular, expensive and renewed process, not in a short track.

Yet Raffaele and Amanda both had charges piled upon them and Rudy Guede did not. He escaped scot-free of everything else, and had his murder conviction generously mitigated on dubious or ridiculous grounds.
 
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And in this case, the scenario was that of a troubled young person who took part in committing a non premeditated murder together with other people, and who returned back to Italy by train to give himself up to the police. This is a common crime.

What you describe is of course not what happened, which is already troubling - but what's really disturbing in that snip is the last sentence.

This is a common crime???

Troubled young people taking part in non-premeditated murder together with other people is a common crime?

Is that really the case in Perugia?
 
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