Looking for Skeptics - Continuation (Cassidy's EVP/diamond damage claim)

Daylightstar said:

It is quite possible that she sent the JREF 'something', but most likely something which provides no reason to engage with it or provides specific reason to not engage with it.

She'll probably be functionally ignored.

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I sent an application form via land mail, claiming and outlining my ability. Coupled with a copy of media coverage and a letter from a GP.

I was contacted by email to confirm that my application was complete. The email spelled out that I was responsible for all costs and did I have a protocol in mind.

I forwarded a "suggested" protocol, very straight-forward. Equipment required, how it needs to be delivered, and how I can demonstrate paranormal activity. If the JREF see fit to alter those suggestions I've yet to know about it.
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The exact equipment is:

1 PERSONAL PC (Standard Samsung)
1 AFFECTED PC (Affected = signal has transferred successfully)
1 NEW PC (Possibly 2)
(To be delivered direct to a JREF representative here in the UK)

1 SET OF PC SPEAKERS.
1 DRUM.
1 ELASTIC BAND.
1 PRINCESS-CUT DIAMOND TRILOGY RING (APPROX 0.40/0.50ct)
(To be delivered direct to a JREF representative here in the UK)

1 JEWELLERS LOUP
===============

Cassidy said:

I don't really see the difficulty in proving the transference of spirit activity into a PC, and then have them alter a diamond.

If the equipment is inspected beforehand, and is then inspected after the test, and if the results are that all the equipment ends up a pile of noisy worthless junk (simply by touching) it's a pass surely?

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So, if I am reading your post and claim correctly, the spirit enters one or all of your three PC's, turns a Diamond into something else, and then the equipment (the PC's) become a pile of worthless junk? Why is changing a diamond relevant to this claim? What happens to the drum and the rubber band?

And if you have ever read the older JREF MDC threads, you might have discovered that members were more than willing to help members develop a protocol to assist them in applying for the challenge.

Norm

Cassidy said:

I forwarded a "suggested" protocol, very straight-forward.

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Well, just post it here. Simple!

Norm

Mojo said:

I don't see the difficulty in posting your suggested protocol.

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It was short and clear. It's not difficult to post it no. I just don't care for the complicated replies. It's a simple procedure. I take the equipment and use it in the usual manner. I'll communicate with "noise" coming from nowhere, transfer the noise into the other PC's, whilst checking the diamond. It's not difficult to demonstrate this given the chance.

Cassidy said:

I was contacted by email to confirm that my application was complete. The email spelled out that I was responsible for all costs and did I have a protocol in mind.

I forwarded a "suggested" protocol, very straight-forward. Equipment required, how it needs to be delivered, and how I can demonstrate paranormal activity. If the JREF see fit to alter those suggestions I've yet to know about it.

Click to expand...

This is the bit we're interested in.

Cassidy said:

It was short and clear. It's not difficult to post it no. I just don't care for the complicated replies. It's a simple procedure. I take the equipment and use it in the usual manner. I'll communicate with "noise" coming from nowhere, transfer the noise into the other PC's, whilst checking the diamond. It's not difficult to demonstrate this given the chance.

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If this is what you sent the JREF, they are probably still waiting for your suggested protocol.

fromdownunder said:

So, if I am reading your post and claim correctly, the spirit enters one or all of your three PC's, turns a Diamond into something else, and then the equipment (the PC's) become a pile of worthless junk? Why is changing a diamond relevant to this claim? What happens to the drum and the rubber band?

And if you have ever read the older JREF MDC threads, you might have discovered that members were more than willing to help members develop a protocol to assist them in applying for the challenge.

Norm

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I hear you and I've outlined my ability. I haven't found much help at all from here. I only have to say hello and I'm met with ridicule, amateur medical diagnosis's and blind speculation. After that it's difficult to hold much conversation. I really only wish to know how long it takes for the JREF to reply to emails. I've waited over 3 months for a reply and I'm becoming slightly suspicious by it.

Lost half the reply there sorry: The voice that emits and transfers, is considered pareidolia. So if he breaks a diamond, it can't be considered anything but paranormal.

The drum is used for vibration, and so is the elastic band.

If you post up your suggested protocol, I predict that people will become very helpful and will be keen to work out a good protocol with you.

ETA it is possible that the lack of properly laid out protocol is part of the reason why you have not heard back from JREF, but if you email them to ask what the hold up is, I hope someone will reply to you.

Cassidy said:

The voice that emits and transfers, is considered pareidolia. So if he breaks a diamond, it can't be considered anything but paranormal.

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Only if you can produce a protocol that eliminates all non-paranormal causes, and (for the purposes of the challenge) has sufficient statistical power and a clear "yes/no" criterion for establishing the effect.

You haven't established that he exists, so you are begging the question here.

It sounds like Cassidy's proposed protocol is something like:

1. Adjudicator, claimant and required equipment assemble in a room, with several observers
2. Adjudicator examines PC and diamond ring and records detailed description/takes photos of ring
3. Claimant puts on the diamond ring
4. Claimant somehow induces spirits to infest the PC
5. Claimant somehow induces the spirits in the PC to make changes to one or more of the diamonds
6. At some point (but no more than several hours) later claimant removes the diamond ring
7. Adjudicator examines diamond ring and states whether changes to it have occurred
8. Participants leave room

I can see a few problems with it.

I'm assuming the drum and rubber band are Cassidy's idea of a joke.

Cassidy said:

I haven't found much help at all from here. I only have to say hello and I'm met with ridicule, amateur medical diagnosis'

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Well, perhaps it is simply because you have not told us what your proposed draft protocol is. As long as you ignore trying to tell people what you can actually do, and you can provide evidence for your claim, then you don't even have a claim. Don't you even understand this?

Norm

I remember this. The talking past each other part.

The strategy is simple. What she submitted to the JREF is just as vague as what she posted here. Words strung together conveying little to nothing. JREF will make a few attempts to make her commit to a claim and then give up.

Then there will be the "JREF is to frightened to test me!" claim.

Wondering whether I should adopt the penname of a dear friend's dad...Cynic.

Cassidy said:

...I forwarded a "suggested" protocol, very straight-forward. Equipment required, how it needs to be delivered, and how I can demonstrate paranormal activity. If the JREF see fit to alter those suggestions I've yet to know about it.
=====================

The exact equipment is:

1 PERSONAL PC (Standard Samsung)
1 AFFECTED PC (Affected = signal has transferred successfully)
1 NEW PC (Possibly 2)
(To be delivered direct to a JREF representative here in the UK)

1 SET OF PC SPEAKERS.
1 DRUM.
1 ELASTIC BAND.
1 PRINCESS-CUT DIAMOND TRILOGY RING (APPROX 0.40/0.50ct)
(To be delivered direct to a JREF representative here in the UK)

1 JEWELLERS LOUP
===============

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If I was the JREF liason for this, I'd have a few questions about the equipment - such as how can the claimant demonstrate that the PCs have not been tampered with (e.g. set up to behave abnormally) in advance, how has the 'affected' PC been changed and how can she demonstrate it, and I would be extremely wary of allowing the claimant to provide the ring containing the stones that were supposed to break.

I would want all the PCs apart from the 'affected' PC to be bought or loaned from an independent source, and inspected by an independent computer expert; I would want a demonstration (handled by an independent computer expert under instruction by the claimant) of the unique properties of the affected PC (surely a claim in it's own right?); I would want the diamond(s) to be bought or loaned from an independent source (a jeweller with an eye for publicity, perhaps?); I would want at least one, preferably two, independent and certified diamond graders to be present to perform the before test and after test examinations - providing a written report of the unique identifying features of each diamond for secure storage - and to officially certify the diamonds examined after the test were the same diamonds and that their properties had or had not changed, and how they'd changed if they had. I would want the claimant to touch only what had been agreed as essential to the execution of the claim, and to remain under supervision at all times, particularly if wearing the diamonds. If there was an apparent success (e.g. a damaged diamond), I'd want a confirmatory repeat of the whole procedure; and so-on.

To stake a million dollars, you need to be very sure that you're not being fooled...

This is after a just a cursory look at the vague claim and equipment, and without seeing the suggested protocol. Even this would be a very expensive challenge to run, and I'd expect there to be more requirements in an agreed protocol.

I think Susheel has it right. She will fail to agree a protocol with JREF and claim they were afraid they'd lose their money.

Perhaps I am missing something, but were I the JREF liaison I would set aside the claims about the PCs. She could provide all the equipment she likes -- so long as there are safeguards preventing them somehow being used in a manipulation of the diamonds.

Cassidy is in effect making two claims here: Spirit-infested PCS and spirit-damaged diamonds. The spirit-infested PCs are her mechanism; the spirit-damaged diamonds are her result. But who cares about the mechanism? Show the result.

The protocols should be about safeguarding against trickery with the diamonds; she can put three truckloads of PCs in a nearby room, in her bedroom at home communicating via Skype, or on Randi's desk; it doesn't matter.

The protocol and the test should focus simply on the diamonds.

I also have feeling that the claim is based on the perception that diamonds are indestructible. Just how difficult would it be to damage an average ornamental diamond?

Garrette said:

Perhaps I am missing something, but were I the JREF liaison I would set aside the claims about the PCs. She could provide all the equipment she likes -- so long as there are safeguards preventing them somehow being used in a manipulation of the diamonds.

Cassidy is in effect making two claims here: Spirit-infested PCS and spirit-damaged diamonds. The spirit-infested PCs are her mechanism; the spirit-damaged diamonds are her result. But who cares about the mechanism? Show the result.

The protocols should be about safeguarding against trickery with the diamonds; she can put three truckloads of PCs in a nearby room, in her bedroom at home communicating via Skype, or on Randi's desk; it doesn't matter.

The protocol and the test should focus simply on the diamonds.

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Yes, you're quite right. The mechanism is (broadly) irrelevant.

Just incidentally, the newspaper article suggests the claim is the ability to damage diamonds with the mind alone, but my impression was that she claims that spirits do the damage, rather than her mind.

Susheel said:

I also have feeling that the claim is based on the perception that diamonds are indestructible. Just how difficult would it be to damage an average ornamental diamond?

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Not easy, but not as difficult as some think. They're susceptible to a blowtorch, for example, and can be chipped or split with appropriate tools; but if the claim is that the damage will be done by spirits or the mind alone, a sensible protocol would specify no physical contact.

dlorde said:

Not easy, but not as difficult as some think. They're susceptible to a blowtorch, for example, and can be chipped or split with appropriate tools; but if the claim is that the damage will be done by spirits or the mind alone, a sensible protocol would specify no physical contact.

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I agree. Diamonds are pretty hard and durable but yes, they can be damaged. The most common damage is from hitting a hard surface and chipping the edge of the diamond. Occasionally a diamond will fracture along an internal fault or cavity from a minor bump. But for the most part they're pretty hardy. Corrosive chemicals can damage the setting but not the diamond itself. It would be obvious if Cassidy attempted to assist the “spirits” process.

As for making sure Cassidy doesn't switch diamonds somehow during the test, that shouldn't be a problem, though I'm not a gemologist and can only speak from my own experience. I own two diamonds that are significant enough to have certified appraisals. Over the last 20+ years I've had one appraised three times and the other twice, by different GIA-certified jewelers.

I pulled out a couple of the appraisals and the information includes; shape and cut, dimensions, weight, proportions, finish, clarity grade and color grade. Also included is an inclusion plot which is a little map of flaws on top of and inside the diamond, along with a “key” to the markings for each type of flaw.

The jeweler used a loupe, microscope, diamondlight (whatever that is), color master set, uv light, millimeter gauge, leveridge gauge (not leverage), and diamond scale.

My point is that a qualified gemologist can identify and map out a diamond very precisely and would have no problem verifying that it's the original diamond and documenting changes such as “smashing.” And it need not be the same assessor – while one might spot some tiny flaw that the other missed, the overall inclusion map is consistent. FWIW, 10 years ago the cost was just over $60 for each GIA-certified appraisal.

I can't see why the diamond-breaking test would be all that difficult to set up but I'm not sure why any of the other equipment Cassidy lists is necessary for such a test. It seems like the additional items just complicates things.

Donn said:

I had a scoff because you are shameless in your wilful determination to remain deluded.

We have seen this movie before. Same story, different noise. Why should I, or anyone else here, engage you any further?

Is it going to be any different? Will you come to admit any impediment of your visual systems, of your mind? Will you admit of any error in your personality at all?

Or will you double-down and insist that you are right, all the time? Will you be so arrogant that all honest attempts to share what we know are rebuffed in a sociopathic monomania of repetition?

I think the last is more likely.



No, I will not give you an inch — for nonsense's damaging rule holds sway too far.

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How can I say I am right when it hasn't yet been investigated? How can anyone say they are right without investigation? All I can say is what is happening. I have a perfectly normal GP who also agrees it's worthy of investigation. Have you heard what emits this PC these days? I can only say "Yes that's a voice" I'm just not buying pareidolia as an answer.