Miracle of the Shroud V - Blood and Limestone

MRC_Hans

Penultimate Amazing
Joined
Aug 28, 2002
Messages
24,967
Add to all this that the shroud, as a fake, is NOT your average medieval painting. It is an artefact deliberately produced to create the illusion of the burial shroud of Jesus. Thus, even if we knew of no other example of blood in paintings, it would still be plausible that the artist used blood to represent ... blood stains.

Hans

Posted By: zooterkin
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Add to all this that the shroud, as a fake, is NOT your average medieval painting. It is an artefact deliberately produced to create the illusion of the burial shroud of Jesus. Thus, even if we knew of no other example of blood in paintings, it would still be plausible that the artist used blood to represent ... blood stains.

Hans

I still want to know how Jabba can rule out the possibility that the shroud is actually just a burial cloth from the 13th century.

As I've said, I know what I would use to rule that out, but I want to hear Jabba's answer.
 
I've asked this before and was answered. But I can't find the answer.
So apologies for re-asking but could someone link to the site where Jabba reports his 'successes' in debating the meanie skeptics please.


Sent from my iNsomniPad using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:
Slowvehicle,
- I haven't been able to find any painting of a crucifixion, or any pre-15th century painting at all, that used real blood. Consequently, finding real blood being used for blood stains on a 14th century painting should be extremely unexpected -- whereas, finding real blood stains on the authentic shroud of Jesus would be quite expected.

Why would you not expect to find blood stains on a fraudulent shroud?
 
My Dear Mr. Savge:

In your mind, do a "few web searches" settle the issue for you?

Curiously yours, &ct.
Slowvehicle,
- Do you accept my underlying claim that if bloodstains are more likely given authenticity than they are given inauthenticity, the finding of bloodstains would support authenticity rather than inauthenticity?
- If you don't, that's the issue I need to address first.
 
Slowvehicle,
- Do you accept my underlying claim that if bloodstains are more likely given authenticity than they are given inauthenticity, the finding of bloodstains would support authenticity rather than inauthenticity?
- If you don't, that's the issue I need to address first.


Jabba,
- At a rough estimate, how many pieces of cloth with blood on them do you think there have ever been?
 
Slowvehicle,
- Do you accept my underlying claim that if bloodstains are more likely given authenticity than they are given inauthenticity,.

I don't accept your premise.

You have been asked why you'd expect bloodstains if the body is buried according to Jewish burial customs. You haven't answered.
 
Do you accept my underlying claim that if bloodstains are more likely given authenticity than they are given inauthenticity, the finding of bloodstains would support authenticity rather than inauthenticity?

NO.

Which is to say, I can see you've spent some time trying to figure out how to phrase your circular reasoning so that it (a) hides the out-of-thin-air guess you're making, and (b) sounds like something you can misuse Bayes again to make seem plausible.

Everyone sees right through your circular argument, including your erstwhile ally, so stop trying to find a different way of saying it. As many times as you've tried and failed to get a circular claim past your critics, it's just insulting now for you to keep trying. You know we'll catch you every time, so I assume you're just now deliberately wasting people's attention on you.

As I've said several times: drop Bayesian analysis. It doesn't do what you insinuate it does, and you can't demonstrate a working understanding of it. At this point your continued allusion to it can only be a deliberate attempt at obfuscation.

Your Bayesesque word salad hides your unproven claim: You have said it's more likely that an authentic shroud would have blood on it than an artificial one. You have provided zero argument in favor of that claim. You have instead tried to foist a burden of proof onto your critics, which they nevertheless undertook and satisfied, and which you now simply refuse to acknowledge. Without proof of your priors, Bayes cannot help you. So get to it.

And finally, quit trying to get your critics to agree with you just by virtue of you asking. You've raised question-begging to a high art form. Your tortured phrasing above is undoubtedly intended to get people to agree that, in the abstract Bayesian sense, one thing would follow from another. But then you will, as you have so many times before, equivocate that into a maxim shorn of its Bayesian roots -- that blood is probative of authenticity in an objective, unpredisposed sense. This is extremely shameful of you Jabba, because it's absolutely clear you know exactly what you're doing. I can't imagine how you think these very transparent rhetorical ploys constitute "effective debate." If you knew anything at all about Bayes, including what I've attempted to teach you, you would realize that any such conclusion would hold only insofar as the prior estimates of conditional likelihood -- which you admit you just make up. Seriously, it's disgraceful the way you are deliberately twisting and warping useful sciences to support your delusion.

If you don't, that's the issue I need to address first.

No. First you need to prove the stains are human blood. If you can't do that, none of what you're doing now matters even a little bit.

Is it clear now what your next step should be?
 
Last edited:
You have been asked why you'd expect bloodstains if the body is buried according to Jewish burial customs. You haven't answered.

Nor did he answer the question put to him in the quoted post. He simply launched another motte-and-bailey attempt. Such reprehensible behavior from someone claiming to want "effective debate."

The question still stands. Is the failure of one biased person to find pertinent information from a cursory Internet search sufficient to settle the matter?
 
Slowvehicle,
- Do you accept my underlying claim that if bloodstains are more likely given authenticity than they are given inauthenticity, the finding of bloodstains would support authenticity rather than inauthenticity?
- If you don't, that's the issue I need to address first.
- Does anyone accept my claim? Hans? Wollery? Agatha?
 
- Does anyone accept my claim? Hans? Wollery? Agatha?

You got caught attempting yet another ham-fisted equivocation. Quit trying to get people to buy into it. It's insulting.

Regardless of anyone's answer to your latest motte-and-bailey straw man, you have yet to prove the stains are human blood. None of what you're trying to do now means a single thing unless and until you are able to prove the identity of the stain.

Kindly stop pussy-footing around and supply the requested proof.
 
Here are the most recent pending questions or requests for production outstanding against you, Jabba. Instead of all the premise-foisting you're doing as a distraction, please answer each of the following or explain in each case why you will not.

1. Why do you think it's reasonable to say an authentic shroud would be more likely to have bloodstains on it?

2. Does "a few web searches" objectively settle the question whether blood has been used historically as paint? Does it settle any question?

3. What do you think proves that the stains on the cloth are blood?

4. What evidence supports the expectation that the body of Jesus would produce the visible stains, as blood, when enshrouded? (Alternatively, what evidence supports the contention that an authentic burial shroud would exhibit the stains as seen in the Turin cloth?)

5. Is the amount of direct evidence you say you have for authenticity "little" or "none?" [choose one]

Your attention to these neglected questions is appreciated.
 

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom