9/11 - FEMA/NORAD vs Mineta testimony - timelines do not connect

T.A.M.

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So I am debating with Skeptosis over at Conspiracy Smasher, and we get on the topic of FEMA NORAD and Mineta...here is the problem.

According to the released FEMA/NORAD Recordings, noone became officially aware that AA77 was officially "lost" until 9:34 EDT.

But Mineta testified that he arrived at the bunker at 9:20 EDT, and 5-6 minutes after this, making it 9:25-9:26 EDT, he saw the young man come in and ask Cheney about the order.

If at 9:26, noone had heard that AA77 was missing...

9:34:01WASHINGTON CENTER: Now, let me tell you this. I—I'll—we've been looking. We're—also lost American 77—WATSON: American 77?DOOLEY: American 77's lost—WATSON: Where was it proposed to head, sir?WASHINGTON CENTER: Okay, he was going to L.A. also—WATSON: From where, sir?WASHINGTON CENTER: I think he was from Boston also. Now let me tell you this story here. Indianapolis Center was working this guy—WATSON: What guy?WASHINGTON CENTER: American 77, at flight level 3-5-0 [35,000 feet]. However, they lost radar with him. They lost contact with him. They lost everything. And they don't have any idea where he is or what happened.

What was the man who spoke to Cheney referring to? I initially thought, ok, perhaps it was the "Phantom" AA11, but then there is the whole "it is 50 miles out, it is 30 miles out", so if they are reporting a plane coming towards them, how can it be the Phantom AA11, which didn't even exist. Were they using a calculated/estimated trajectory and time of impact, or was it something more?
 
So I am debating with Skeptosis over at Conspiracy Smasher, and we get on the topic of FEMA NORAD and Mineta...here is the problem.

According to the released FEMA/NORAD Recordings, noone became officially aware that AA77 was officially "lost" until 9:34 EDT.

But Mineta testified that he arrived at the bunker at 9:20 EDT, and 5-6 minutes after this, making it 9:25-9:26 EDT, he saw the young man come in and ask Cheney about the order.

If at 9:26, noone had heard that AA77 was missing...

9:34:01WASHINGTON CENTER: Now, let me tell you this. I—I'll—we've been looking. We're—also lost American 77—WATSON: American 77?DOOLEY: American 77's lost—WATSON: Where was it proposed to head, sir?WASHINGTON CENTER: Okay, he was going to L.A. also—WATSON: From where, sir?WASHINGTON CENTER: I think he was from Boston also. Now let me tell you this story here. Indianapolis Center was working this guy—WATSON: What guy?WASHINGTON CENTER: American 77, at flight level 3-5-0 [35,000 feet]. However, they lost radar with him. They lost contact with him. They lost everything. And they don't have any idea where he is or what happened.

What was the man who spoke to Cheney referring to? I initially thought, ok, perhaps it was the "Phantom" AA11, but then there is the whole "it is 50 miles out, it is 30 miles out", so if they are reporting a plane coming towards them, how can it be the Phantom AA11, which didn't even exist. Were they using a calculated/estimated trajectory and time of impact, or was it something more?

Mineta was likely mistaken as to the time they got to the bunker, as to what the "young man" was talking about - who knows, but it wasnt AA77.
 
What was the man who spoke to Cheney referring to? I initially thought, ok, perhaps it was the "Phantom" AA11, but then there is the whole "it is 50 miles out, it is 30 miles out", so if they are reporting a plane coming towards them, how can it be the Phantom AA11, which didn't even exist. Were they using a calculated/estimated trajectory and time of impact, or was it something more?

I believe it to be UA93 that Mineta confused with AA77/11. Mineta's testimony can be easily proved to be wrong. I posted in another thread - give me a sec and I'll dig it up and re-post here.
 
My original post can be found in this thread, and is reproduced below. You have my (unsolicited) persmission to use it in whatever manner you see fit:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sec. Mineta's testimony in this regard is not reliable. Once you tease out the particulars, it's easy to show that his time-line if quite a bit off as illustrated by live media reports presented that day, other official testimony, subsequent statements by the participants of those events and physical evidence presented to the Commission.

For instance. in his testimony to the Commission, Sec. Mineta relates the time-line of events from his arrival at the White House:


MR. ROEMER: Nice to see you, Mr. Secretary, and nice to see you feeling better and getting around as well, too.

I want to follow up on what happened in the Presidential Emergency Operations Center and try to understand that day a little bit better. You said, if I understood you correctly, that you were not in the room; you were obviously coming from the Department of Transportation, where you had been busy in a meeting in official business, but you had not been in the room when the decision was made -- to what you inferred was a decision made to attempt to shoot down Flight 77 before it crashed into the Pentagon. Is that correct?

MR. MINETA: I didn't know about the order to shoot down. I arrived at the PEOC at about 9:20 a.m. And the president was in Florida, and I believe he was on his way to Louisiana at that point when the conversation that went on between the vice president and the president and the staff that the president had with him.

MR. ROEMER: So when you arrived at 9:20, how much longer was it before you overheard the conversation between the young man and the vice president saying, "Does the order still stand?"

MR. MINETA: Probably about five or six minutes.

According to the testimony provided above, Sec. Mineta claims the following events occurred between 0920 and 0926:

  • Sec. Mineta arrives at PEOC:
    This is disputed by the USSS alarm log presented the the Commission that shows the time as 0937 (Report pp. 39-40), by Secret Service agents Nelson Garabito,and Terry van Steenburgen who testified to the Commission that the VP had not yet evacuated at 0933 at the time time of the Reagan Nat'l Airport call to the White House Secret Service detail (Report p. 39), by Secret Service agent Rocco Delmonico who testified to the actual timing of the evacuation (Report pp. 39-40) among others.

  • President Bush departed for Barksdale, AFB:
    This is deputed by countless media reports (CNN, USSS shift log of Sept. 11, 2001 (Report p. 39) and by your (Mutton-Head's) own claims (Bush stayed in the classroom reading My Pet Goat until after 0915.)


    [*]Pres. Bush and VP Cheney concluded a phone call:
    This is disputed by Lynne Cheney's arrival time at the PEOC ("According to contemporaneous notes, at 9:55 the Vice President was still on the phone with the President advising that three planes were missing and one had hit the Pentagon." Report p. 40)


    [*]President Bush issued a shoot-down order through VP Cheney:
    This is disputed by VP Cheney, the PEOC Shelter Log, White House phone logs, AF-1 phone logs, and Ari Fleisher which place the call around 1010. (Report pp. 40 - 41.)


    [*]VP Cheney passed the order to the military:
    This is disputed by DoD Transcript for its Air Conference Call which placed the time that the order was disseminated at 1014. (Report p. 42)



[Edit for clarity: Note that I am not claiming these events did not occur - I am claiming that none of them occurred in the 0920-0926 timefarme as Sec. Mineta's testimony asserts.]

Actually, what Sec. Mineta witnessed being tracked is UA93:

At 10:02, the communicators in the shelter began receiving reports from the Secret Service of an inbound aircraft —presumably hijacked— heading toward Washington.That aircraft was United 93.The Secret Service was getting this information directly from the FAA.The FAA may have been tracking the progress of United 93 on a display that showed its projected path to Washington, not its actual radar return.Thus, the Secret Service was relying on projections and was not aware the plane was already down in Pennsylvania.217
At some time between 10:10 and 10:15, a military aide told the Vice President and others that the aircraft was 80 miles out. Vice President Cheney was asked for authority to engage the aircraft.218 His reaction was described by Scooter Libby as quick and decisive, “in about the time it takes a batter to decide to swing.” The Vice President authorized fighter aircraft to engage the inbound plane. He told us he based this authorization on his earlier conversation with the President.The military aide returned a few minutes later, probably between 10:12 and 10:18, and said the aircraft was 60 miles out. He again asked for authorization to engage.The Vice President again said yes. 219

The call-outs, the confirmation request... Sound familiar?

You simply cannot have Mineta's testimony a priori and the My Pet Goat story. One of them has to be wrong. Either he sat in the classroom and listened to the children read or he jumped into action and made phone calls.

Which is it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Most excellent. So Mineta was wrong, by quite a bit, time wise. Well that clears it up for me...I just wanted clarification, and that is it.
 
It should also be pointed at that NEADS were alerted to 10 hijackings in the first 90 minutes of the 9/11 attacks (beginning with the notification that AA11 had been hijacked).

Obviously these were not all real hijackings. Many of them were headed towards The Pentagon.

Lastly, Mineta himself states clearly in his testimony that he DIDN'T KNOW what was going on, and that the 9/11 commission should get that information from OTHER PEOPLE.

-Andrew

ETA. I have previously calculated that it is physically impossible for AA77 to have been the aircraft being reported.
 
It should also be pointed at that NEADS were alerted to 10 hijackings in the first 90 minutes of the 9/11 attacks (beginning with the notification that AA11 had been hijacked).

That's a good point as well. Do you have any evidence that any erroneous hijack reports made it up to the PEOC? I imagine most of these false reports ended up being aircraft that ventured off-course or missed a radio call, which would be fairly easy to sort out.
 
That's a good point as well. Do you have any evidence that any erroneous hijack reports made it up to the PEOC? I imagine most of these false reports ended up being aircraft that ventured off-course or missed a radio call, which would be fairly easy to sort out.


There's no indication in the NEADS tapes, so I don't know (presumably there was some sort of communication however)

The total of 11 incidents (one is not originally considered to be a hijacking) are:

1. 0837 - Boston Centre notifies NEADS of hijacking of AA11

2. 0851 - Boston Centre notifies NEADS that a plane has hit WTC1

3. 0903 - NEADS are notified of a second hijacking

4. 0921 - Boston Centre notifies NEADS of a hijacked aircraft headed for Washington DC

5. 0934 - NEADS learn (by accident) of the hijacking of AA77

6. 0935 - Boston Centre notify NEADS of another unidentified aircraft flying over Washington DC

7. 0940 - Boston Centre notifies NEADS that Delta 1989 has been hijacked

8. between 0904 and 1007 - NORAD Canada Region notify NEADS of a suspect hijack aircraft crossing over the border towards Washington

9. 1007 - Baltimore Centre becomes aware of an aircraft over the White House

10. 1007 - Cleveland Centre notifies NEADS that UA93 has been hijacked

11. 1015 - SEADS notify NEADS of a potential hijacking entering their airspace

-Andrew

ETA. It is worth noting many of these "hits" are double ups, but in the course of this time frame only one false alarm is confirmed as a false alarm - number 9 on the list which turns out to be NORAD fighter aircraft (they intercept their own aircraft). The above situation continues late into the afternoon with false alarm after false alarm after false alarm.
 
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Hrmm...

KAL 85 isn't on that list? That's the 747 that was diverted to Whitehorse.


That occured after 12PM from what I gather (pilots gave verbal confirmation of their 7500 Hijack Squawk Code at 1324). It also happened in NORAD Alaska Region - the ones I mentioned are only the hijacking reports received by North East Air Defense Sector (NEADS) of NORAD CONUS Region in the first 90-odd minutes.

IIRC the FAA initially notified NEADS of something like 60 aircraft they couldn't get a response from just in the NY area alone!

-Andrew
 
Woodybox created the "flight 93 landed in Cleveland" myth. I believe he lives in Germany. Kookadelic.
 
I believe that Mineta must be describing one of the phantom flights. Nothing else really fits. There were any number of these, including the DC police helicopter (which is featured prominently in 9-11 Eyewitness) and the phantom Flight 11 (many believed that morning that Flight 11 was not the plane that hit the North Tower, and that it was continuing on to Washington).
 
I believe that Mineta must be describing one of the phantom flights. Nothing else really fits. There were any number of these, including the DC police helicopter (which is featured prominently in 9-11 Eyewitness) and the phantom Flight 11 (many believed that morning that Flight 11 was not the plane that hit the North Tower, and that it was continuing on to Washington).



I still think the most likely contender is a projected UA93 flight path, some time after 10am - I'm willing to bed Mineta got his entire timeline wrong by an hour (something easy to do if, for example, he was wearing an analogue watch).

In other words the conversation occurred at 10:25, not 9:25.

This would place it after the evacuation from The White House, after The Pentagon was hit, and about the time UA93 was expected to have reached Washington DC. Most importantly, it puts it after the Shoot Down order was issued.

Having said that, I also suspect the shoot down order we're talking about is not the Presidential one.

Within minutes of American Airlines Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon on Sept. 11, Air National Guard F-16s took off from here [Andrews Air Force Base] in response to a plea from the White House to "Get in the air now!" Those fighters were flown by three pilots who had decided, on their own, to ram a hijacked airliner and force it to crash, if necessary. Such action almost certainly would have been fatal for them, but could have prevented another terrorism catastrophe in Washington.

...

Another call from the Secret Service commanded, "Get in the air now!" Almost simultaneously, a call from someone else in the White House declared the Washington area "a free-fire zone. That meant we were given authority to use force, if the situation required it, in defense of the nation's capital, its property and people," Sasseville said.

...

MINUTES LATER, Sasseville and Lucky were in the air, roughly 6 min. after they had reached their F-16s. "I was still turning things on after I got airborne. By that time, the [Norad alert] F-16s from Langley were overhead--but I didn't know they were there," Sasseville recalled. "We all realized we were looking for an airliner--a big airplane. That was [United] Flight 93; the track looked like it was headed toward D.C. at that time."

Source

These are fighters from the 121st Fighter Squadron based at Andrews Air Force Base. The evidence seems to suggest that they were launched under orders from The White House, with a shoot down order, specifically to intercept UA93. This, to me, at least, does a number of things:

1) Indicates UA93's progress was being projected, and the "system" was not aware of its crash at 1003.
2) Indicates someone at The White House gave a premature shoot-down order.

I suspect the conversation Mineta observed was a result of clarification from these 121st FS pilots, not from NORAD pilots. This would seem to indicate that Cheney gave this particular shootdown order, and that the White House was not aware UA93 had crashed.

-Gumboot
 
This whole issue of Mineta's account vs. Cheney's is really bizarre,
because the evidence appears to be all over the place.
IMHO, NONE of the stories are consistent!
Even the notion that UA93 can account for the discrepancy is a little far fetched:
How could anyone think the plane that hit the Pentagon was approaching at 10:15 ??
If NM arrived "5 or 6 minutes" before that time, where the hell was he for the previous 40 minutes (~9:25-10:05). (Richard Clarke said he sent NM to the PEOC bunker some time before 9:28).

Then there's the consideration that Richard Clarke's account is more in line with the Transportation Secretary's testimony.

Below is a fairly detailed summary that might be worth critiqueing and breaking apart for logical inconsistencies:

journalof911studies.com/letters/AdamMinetaClarkePaper.pdf

<<begin quote>>
...
From the September 14th, 2002 ABC News article “Moments of Crisis”, David Bohrer, a White House photographer, also explains that it was just after 9:00am when Cheney left for the PEOC. [ABC News:#52]

--- BEGIN ABC NEWS ACCOUNT
Just after 9 a.m. ET on Sept. 11, 2001, Vice President Dick Cheney
was in his West Wing office when two or three agents came in and
told him "Sir, you have to come with us," according to David Bohrer,
a White House photographer who was there.

One of the agents "put his hand on the back of my belt, grabbed me by the
shoulder and sort of propelled me down the hallway," Cheney said.
They took him into an underground bunker known as PEOC, the
President's Emergency Operations Center.

Transportation Secretary Norman Mineta already was in the bunker.
"Someone came in and said, 'Mr. Vice President, there's a plane out
50 miles,'" Mineta said.
Mineta conferred with Federal Aviation Administration Deputy Chief
Monte Belger.

"I said … 'Monte, what do you have?'" Mineta said. "He said, 'Well,
we're watching this target on the radar, but the transponder's been
turned off, so we have no identification.'"

As the plane got closer, air officials had picked up enough information to
believe the unidentified plane was headed toward Washington, perhaps
toward Ronald Reagan National Airport, near the Pentagon.

At 9:30 a.m. ET, at Langley Air Force Base in Virginia, F-16 fighter pilots
scrambled into the air 105 miles — or 12 minutes — south of Washington.

"Our supervisor picked up our line to the White House," said Danielle
O'Brien, an air traffic controller at an FAA facility near Washington's
Dulles Airport, "and started relaying to them the information: 'We have an
unidentified, very fast-moving aircraft inbound toward your vicinity, eight
miles west, seven miles west.' And it went, '6, 5, 4.'"

"Pretty soon, he said, 'Uh oh, we just lost the bogey,' meaning the target
went off the screen," Mineta said. "So I said, 'Well, where is it?' And he
said, 'Well, we're not really sure.'"

‘Bang, the Airplane Hits the Building’
--- END ABC NEWS STORY

This version of the official story, being presented as fact one year later, puts Cheney and Mineta in the PEOC before the Pentagon impact. These series of events are presented here in chronological order and clearly establish that the Secrete Service brought Cheney to the PEOC, where he was told the plane was “50 miles out,” before the impact on the Pentagon.

This article also articulates that Mineta conferred with Federal Aviation Administration Deputy Chief, Monte Belger, who said that they were tracking the plane on radar. Even though the article admits this plane was the plane that hit the Pentagon, this could not have been either Phantom AA 11 or United 93. Had Monte been referring to phantom AA 11, he would not have been able to track the plane on primary radar, since it did not exist. Had he been tracking United 93 on primary radar, he would have realized the plane
crashed when it was 125 miles out, which would also establish that the military was aware of United 93 before it crashed. There is no other possible plane that Monte could have been tracking on radar on its way to Washington. He must have been tracking the plane that hit the Pentagon. The article explains that this conversation between Mineta and Monte occurred after the plane was 50 miles out, but long before the plane reached Washington since “officials had picked up enough information to believe the unidentified plane was headed toward Washington”. This conversation therefore must have occurred before 9:34 when the military supposedly first learned that AA 77 was lost.

The story of Cheney’s actions on 9/11 described in 9/11 Commission Report are contradicted by earlier statements by the Vice President himself. When Cheney appeared on Meet The Press with Tim Russert on September 16th, 2001, he gave a completely different account of events. Inconsistencies exist with Cheney’s acknowledgement that they had “access to the FAA.” Cheney does not describe the Secret Service rushing him to the PEOC with last minute news of AA 77, but instead claims he headed down to the
PEOC after receiving word of a “credible threat to Air Force One.” However, the most glaring contraction is that Cheney himself admits to being in the PEOC shortly before the Pentagon was struck, making no reference to his current supposed whereabouts of being in the tunnel on the way to the PEOC.
[Meet The Press:#53]

--- BEGIN MEET THE PRESS EXCERPT
VICE PRES. CHENEY: …The president was on Air Force One. We
received a threat to Air Force One--came through the Secret Service...
MR. RUSSERT: A credible threat to Air Force One. You're convinced of
that.
VICE PRES. CHENEY: I'm convinced of that. Now, you know, it may
have been phoned in by a crank, but in the midst of what was going on,
there was no way to know that. I think it was a credible threat, enough for
the Secret Service to bring it to me. Once I left that immediate shelter,
after I talked to the president, urged him to stay away for now, well, I went
down into what's call a PEOC, the Presidential Emergency Operations
Center, and there, I had Norm Mineta...

MR. RUSSERT: Secretary of Transportation.

VICE PRES. CHENEY: ...secretary of Transportation, access to the FAA.
I had Condi Rice with me and several of my key staff people. We had
access, secured communications with Air Force One, with the secretary of
Defense over in the Pentagon. We had also the secure videoconference
that ties together the White House, CIA, State, Justice, Defense--a very
useful and valuable facility. We have the counterterrorism task force up on
that net. And so I was in a position to be able to see all the stuff coming in,
receive reports and then make decisions in terms of acting with it.
But when I arrived there within a short order, we had word the Pentagon's
been hit.

--- END MEET THE PRESS EXCERPT

It certainly seems strange that only five days after the attacks, Cheney would tell a completely different series of events than what was described in the 9/11 Commission Report and no explanation for the contradiction has ever been given.
...
<<end quote>>


It certainly seems strange that only five days after the attacks, Cheney would tell a completely different series of events than what was described in the 9/11 Commission Report and no explanation for the contradiction has ever been given.

...


#52 ABC News. Sept. 11’s Moments of Crisis, Part 2 – 9/11 Scrambling. By Charles Gibson. September 14th, 2002.
abcnews.go.com/onair/DailyNews/sept11_moments_2.html

#53 NBC. Meet the Press: The Vice President appears on Meet the Press with Tim Russert. Camp
David, Maryland. September 16th, 2001. whitehouse.gov/vicepresident/newsspeeches/speeches/vp20010916.html
 
This whole issue of Mineta's account vs. Cheney's is really bizarre,
because the evidence appears to be all over the place.
IMHO, NONE of the stories are consistent!
Even the notion that UA93 can account for the discrepancy is a little far fetched:
How could anyone think the plane that hit the Pentagon was approaching at 10:15 ??
If NM arrived "5 or 6 minutes" before that time, where the hell was he for the previous 40 minutes (~9:25-10:05). (Richard Clarke said he sent NM to the PEOC bunker some time before 9:28).

Then there's the consideration that Richard Clarke's account is more in line with the Transportation Secretary's testimony.

Below is a fairly detailed summary that might be worth critiqueing and breaking apart for logical inconsistencies:

journalof911studies.com/letters/AdamMinetaClarkePaper.pdf

<<begin quote>>
...
From the September 14th, 2002 ABC News article “Moments of Crisis”, David Bohrer, a White House photographer, also explains that it was just after 9:00am when Cheney left for the PEOC. [ABC News:#52]

--- BEGIN ABC NEWS ACCOUNT
Just after 9 a.m. ET on Sept. 11, 2001, Vice President Dick Cheney
was in his West Wing office when two or three agents came in and
told him "Sir, you have to come with us," according to David Bohrer,
a White House photographer who was there.

One of the agents "put his hand on the back of my belt, grabbed me by the
shoulder and sort of propelled me down the hallway," Cheney said.
They took him into an underground bunker known as PEOC, the
President's Emergency Operations Center.

Transportation Secretary Norman Mineta already was in the bunker.
"Someone came in and said, 'Mr. Vice President, there's a plane out
50 miles,'" Mineta said.
Mineta conferred with Federal Aviation Administration Deputy Chief
Monte Belger.

"I said … 'Monte, what do you have?'" Mineta said. "He said, 'Well,
we're watching this target on the radar, but the transponder's been
turned off, so we have no identification.'"

As the plane got closer, air officials had picked up enough information to
believe the unidentified plane was headed toward Washington, perhaps
toward Ronald Reagan National Airport, near the Pentagon.

At 9:30 a.m. ET, at Langley Air Force Base in Virginia, F-16 fighter pilots
scrambled into the air 105 miles — or 12 minutes — south of Washington.

"Our supervisor picked up our line to the White House," said Danielle
O'Brien, an air traffic controller at an FAA facility near Washington's
Dulles Airport, "and started relaying to them the information: 'We have an
unidentified, very fast-moving aircraft inbound toward your vicinity, eight
miles west, seven miles west.' And it went, '6, 5, 4.'"

"Pretty soon, he said, 'Uh oh, we just lost the bogey,' meaning the target
went off the screen," Mineta said. "So I said, 'Well, where is it?' And he
said, 'Well, we're not really sure.'"

‘Bang, the Airplane Hits the Building’
--- END ABC NEWS STORY

This version of the official story, being presented as fact one year later, puts Cheney and Mineta in the PEOC before the Pentagon impact. These series of events are presented here in chronological order and clearly establish that the Secrete Service brought Cheney to the PEOC, where he was told the plane was “50 miles out,” before the impact on the Pentagon.

This article also articulates that Mineta conferred with Federal Aviation Administration Deputy Chief, Monte Belger, who said that they were tracking the plane on radar. Even though the article admits this plane was the plane that hit the Pentagon, this could not have been either Phantom AA 11 or United 93. Had Monte been referring to phantom AA 11, he would not have been able to track the plane on primary radar, since it did not exist. Had he been tracking United 93 on primary radar, he would have realized the plane
crashed when it was 125 miles out, which would also establish that the military was aware of United 93 before it crashed. There is no other possible plane that Monte could have been tracking on radar on its way to Washington. He must have been tracking the plane that hit the Pentagon. The article explains that this conversation between Mineta and Monte occurred after the plane was 50 miles out, but long before the plane reached Washington since “officials had picked up enough information to believe the unidentified plane was headed toward Washington”. This conversation therefore must have occurred before 9:34 when the military supposedly first learned that AA 77 was lost.

The story of Cheney’s actions on 9/11 described in 9/11 Commission Report are contradicted by earlier statements by the Vice President himself. When Cheney appeared on Meet The Press with Tim Russert on September 16th, 2001, he gave a completely different account of events. Inconsistencies exist with Cheney’s acknowledgement that they had “access to the FAA.” Cheney does not describe the Secret Service rushing him to the PEOC with last minute news of AA 77, but instead claims he headed down to the
PEOC after receiving word of a “credible threat to Air Force One.” However, the most glaring contraction is that Cheney himself admits to being in the PEOC shortly before the Pentagon was struck, making no reference to his current supposed whereabouts of being in the tunnel on the way to the PEOC.
[Meet The Press:#53]

--- BEGIN MEET THE PRESS EXCERPT
VICE PRES. CHENEY: …The president was on Air Force One. We
received a threat to Air Force One--came through the Secret Service...
MR. RUSSERT: A credible threat to Air Force One. You're convinced of
that.
VICE PRES. CHENEY: I'm convinced of that. Now, you know, it may
have been phoned in by a crank, but in the midst of what was going on,
there was no way to know that. I think it was a credible threat, enough for
the Secret Service to bring it to me. Once I left that immediate shelter,
after I talked to the president, urged him to stay away for now, well, I went
down into what's call a PEOC, the Presidential Emergency Operations
Center, and there, I had Norm Mineta...

MR. RUSSERT: Secretary of Transportation.

VICE PRES. CHENEY: ...secretary of Transportation, access to the FAA.
I had Condi Rice with me and several of my key staff people. We had
access, secured communications with Air Force One, with the secretary of
Defense over in the Pentagon. We had also the secure videoconference
that ties together the White House, CIA, State, Justice, Defense--a very
useful and valuable facility. We have the counterterrorism task force up on
that net. And so I was in a position to be able to see all the stuff coming in,
receive reports and then make decisions in terms of acting with it.
But when I arrived there within a short order, we had word the Pentagon's
been hit.

--- END MEET THE PRESS EXCERPT

It certainly seems strange that only five days after the attacks, Cheney would tell a completely different series of events than what was described in the 9/11 Commission Report and no explanation for the contradiction has ever been given.
...
<<end quote>>


It certainly seems strange that only five days after the attacks, Cheney would tell a completely different series of events than what was described in the 9/11 Commission Report and no explanation for the contradiction has ever been given.

...

#52 ABC News. Sept. 11’s Moments of Crisis, Part 2 – 9/11 Scrambling. By Charles Gibson. September 14th, 2002.
abcnews.go.com/onair/DailyNews/sept11_moments_2.html

#53 NBC. Meet the Press: The Vice President appears on Meet the Press with Tim Russert. Camp
David, Maryland. September 16th, 2001. whitehouse.gov/vicepresident/newsspeeches/speeches/vp20010916.html
What is up with NORAD/Mineta? It does not mean anything. No one had a chance on 9/11 to do anything because this was not in our bag of tricks. 9/11 was over just as the fighters were getting in a position to do something. (it could mean they do not remember anything very well)

Who is the person who brings up fighters at Andrews AFB? There were no fighters on alert at Andrews on 9/11 before the attacks. If a plane is not on alert, it is not armed for combat. The guys who took off from Andrews did not have weapons! It takes time to arm a fighter.

Why is the Vice President important on 9/11? There were no plans to shoot down airliners at a moments notice before 9/11. No one on 9/11 was ready for the terrorists.

I think bringing up Mineta is a sure sign you must be a truther since I have not heard a single reason about what it means. What does it mean to the 9/11 truth movement? What CT is this about?

Has anyone come up with a story to point to a CT on 9/11 that this Mineta/Vice President/NORAD junk means anything?

BTW, any Air Force, Navy, Marine, or Army pilot on 9/11 if they had a clue could of and some would have taken off without permission to help. I am including commanders, pilots or anyone who, if they had a clue, would have launched to help out. Even unarmed as they did on 9/11, pilots were ready to take action if they had a chance. Let us hope they all make a positive ID before blasting a plane.

Again what is the big deal with Mineta/NORAD/Vice on 9/11, and how does it fit in to some perverted CT made up by the 9/11 truth movement?
 
Re: Mineta Account

First of all let me say I’m not a “truther”, but neither am I satisfied with the administration’s story. There are too many inconsistencies, omissions and apparent deceptions that involve the 911 Commission, CIA, DIA, DOJ, EPA, FBI, NIST, NTSB, NORAD, Bush administration, etc. that lead me to be generally skeptical of the government. Clearly the government lies to us for propagandistic reasons (Jessica Lynch, Pat Tilson, the “spontaneous uprising” to pull down Saddam Hussein’s statue, etc), so I am forced to take a skeptic’s view. Also, hiding behind the “state secrets privilege” and the demise of habeas corpus are big concerns of mine.

The 911 CT accounts are on the other hand rather fantastical, and defenders of them seem prone to mistakes and often employ partial facts in their zeal.

I’m more interested in establishing factual accounts and details - before trying to arrive at conclusions. AND, I hope that there’s someway to be skeptical without being labeled. Dissent and criticism are good things. Let’s just say I’m agnostic about 911.

As for this particular topic, which I thought was a legimate thread of inquiry (started by T.A.M.), I am simply pointing out that there are inconsistencies in all sides of the story. Now some responses, in topical order…


What is up with NORAD/Mineta?
It does not mean anything. No one had a chance on 9/11 to do anything because this was not in our bag of tricks. 9/11 was over just as the fighters were getting in a position to do something. (it could mean they do not remember anything very well).

Why is the Vice President important on 9/11? There were no plans to shoot down airliners at a moments notice before 9/11. No one on 9/11 was ready for the terrorists.

I think bringing up Mineta is a sure sign you must be a truther since I have not heard a single reason about what it means. What does it mean to the 9/11 truth movement? What CT is this about?

Has anyone come up with a story to point to a CT on 9/11 that this Mineta/Vice President/NORAD junk means anything?

Again what is the big deal with Mineta/NORAD/Vice on 9/11, and how does it fit in to some perverted CT made up by the 9/11 truth movement?

It’s hard to believe you’ve never encountered any discussion about the meaning of the Mineta testimony. If Mineta’s story is true (regarding incoming AA77 and certain “orders”) then VP Cheney was already in the PEOC, AND … giving shoot down orders as early as ~9:30 AM. If so, then shoot down orders would have been in effect well before 10:03 AM when UA93 came down. Therefore, a reasonable question is whether UA93 was in fact shot down! (The eyewitness and physical evidence at Shanksville is inconclusive about that, but it does not falsify that possibility either… ).

This Mineta issue (from a CT point of view) therefore dovetails into a reason why the administration would be resistant to a full investigation. Also why the Commission Report would tell a very different story than original accounts by: ie, re-adjusting timelines for Norad and for Cheney’s whereabouts - so we can’t question their culpability in shooting down 93. (Under the situation I think the American people would have found it forgiveable. But then who wants to tarnish the heroic story of the UA93 passengers?)

As for the evidence:
Cheney’s own statements (“But when I arrived there within a short order, we had word the Pentagon's been hit.”) implies he was in the PEOC before the Pentagon was hit. This is supported as well by the Mineta component of the ABC news story above.

The timeframe referred to in Mineta’s testimony is also consistent with Richard Clarke’s book (Against All Enemies).

And the wholly ignored Laura Brown FAA memo suggests Norad's not telling the truth.

BUT, the Commission Report contradicts (or is contradicted by) this information.

WHICH BRINGS ME TO ME MY MAIN POINT… THERE IS A CIRCULAR SET OF CONTRADICTORY ACCOUNTS THAT MAKE EITHER POINT OF VIEW INCONCLUSIVE.



Who is the person who brings up fighters at Andrews AFB? There were no fighters on alert at Andrews on 9/11 before the attacks. If a plane is not on alert, it is not armed for combat. The guys who took off from Andrews did not have weapons! It takes time to arm a fighter.

Lets not confuse the issue of “intercept” with the issue of planes being shot down. Prior to June 1, 2001 Norad dealt on average with ~70 intercepts of straying planes or emergencies every year. Norad never shot any of these down. Nor did they justify sending fighters on the basis that they must be armed first in case they have to shoot down an aircraft. (A popular example is the Payne Stewart incident).
So it seems reasonable that flights 77 and 93 should have at least been intercepted and escorted by some fighter jets (especially over DC air space), whether or not they were able to shoot them down.

Incidentally, Norad originally claimed they were not informed of ANY of the planes until each one had crashed. A week later they modified that assertion and issued a timeline that showed mostly FAA culpable in delaying contact with the military. Then 2-1/2 years the 911 Commission’s the Norad timeline changed again. The final timeline shows the FAA even more culpable/incompetent! Why did the Pentagon sit on the “facts” for 3 years?


BTW, any Air Force, Navy, Marine, or Army pilot on 9/11 if they had a clue could of and some would have taken off without permission to help. I am including commanders, pilots or anyone who, if they had a clue, would have launched to help out. Even unarmed as they did on 9/11, pilots were ready to take action if they had a chance. Let us hope they all make a positive ID before blasting a plane.

My point as well. A valiant pilot could have stopped UA93 even if he had to ram it. No need to necessarily arm interceptor jets. We also know that the jetliner made a broad circle around the Pentagon before hitting the west side, and was a sitting duck to be shot out of the sky. Are there no anti-aircraft batteries at the Pentagon? I just don’t get the overall picture of incompetence from the NMCC.
 
Criticalmind:

If I havent welcomed you, welcome to the forum. People here can be testy, but if you are just looking for facts, and not coming in with a promotional agenda, you will find MOST people here quite civil.

Gumboot is one of our local experts on NORAD/FAA/ issues re:9/11 in my opinion. If you wanna get the real facts, do a search under his name cross referenced with "NORAD" and/or "FAA" and or "Stand Down".

TAM:)
 
Therefore, a reasonable question is whether UA93 was in fact shot down! (The eyewitness and physical evidence at Shanksville is inconclusive about that, but it does not falsify that possibility either… ).
No, the eyewitness accounts (no one reported a smoke trail) and the physical evidence (all systems operating normally according to the FDR, no large debris field) are quite conclusive that it was not shot down.

Are there no anti-aircraft batteries at the Pentagon? I just don’t get the overall picture of incompetence from the NMCC.
No, there were no AA batteries at the Pentagon on 9/11.
 
Something to bear in mind...

All of the CT timelines for these events include one distinct similar trait - the people recounting events knew as soon as it happened that AA77 hit The Pentagon.

I find this difficult to believe. I've come across no evidence whatsoever that anyone except NORAD and immediate eyewitnesses knew an airliner had hit the Pentagon immediately after it happened.

Early reports were of either a helicopter crash, or a truck bomb. It was some time before the media were reporting that an airliner hit it.

Where was the White House getting its information? Not from NORAD. Not from eyewitnesses. So how did they know, straight away, that The Pentagon was hit by an airliner?

The obvious answer is they didn't. The people recounting events are reshuffling what they witnessed to fit with what they know happened. But what they don't know about is the confusion, the false hijacking alerts, the projected flight paths, and so forth.

If you hadn't heard the FAA and NORAD tapes, and you were Norman Mineta, you would have to conclude that the conversation you witnessed was about AA77. There's no other explanation.

Mineta made an assumption about what he was witnessing, based on incomplete information. Based on is information, it was the only explanation that made sense. But we have more information than he did.

The NORAD tapes have been released. The NTSB flight studies have been released. Books and countless interviews have been released.

I am almost certain, were you to discuss this matter at length with Mineta today, he would quickly recognise his mistake.

-Gumboot
 
There are too many inconsistencies, omissions and apparent deceptions that involve the 911 Commission, CIA, DIA, DOJ, EPA, FBI, NIST, NTSB, NORAD, Bush administration, etc. that lead me to be generally skeptical of the government. Clearly the government lies to us for propagandistic reasons (Jessica Lynch, Pat Tilson, the “spontaneous uprising” to pull down Saddam Hussein’s statue, etc), so I am forced to take a skeptic’s view.


You've generated a veritable mountain of accusations here. Care to back any of them up.



Therefore, a reasonable question is whether UA93 was in fact shot down! (The eyewitness and physical evidence at Shanksville is inconclusive about that, but it does not falsify that possibility either… ).

Regardless of shoot down orders, UA93 was not shot down.

Firstly, no one in the military was aware it was hijacked until after it had crashed.
Secondly, there were no military aircraft in a position to shoot it down at 1003 over PA.
Thirdly, eye witness testimony, debris recovery, the FDR, and the CVR all reinforce the assertion that the aircraft was not shot down.



Also why the Commission Report would tell a very different story than original accounts by: ie, re-adjusting timelines for Norad and for Cheney’s whereabouts - so we can’t question their culpability in shooting down 93. (Under the situation I think the American people would have found it forgiveable. But then who wants to tarnish the heroic story of the UA93 passengers?)

See above. Were Mineta's testimony entirely accurate, it does not change the fact that UA93 was not shot down.



As for the evidence:
Cheney’s own statements (“But when I arrived there within a short order, we had word the Pentagon's been hit.”) implies he was in the PEOC before the Pentagon was hit.


No, it implies he was in the PEOC before he was informed that the Pentagon was hit.



The timeframe referred to in Mineta’s testimony is also consistent with Richard Clarke’s book (Against All Enemies).


Richard Clarke's book has gaping problems with chronology of its own. It is worth pointing out that Clarke was at the opposite end of the White House to the PEOC, thus his assertions of when people entered the PEOC are somewhat worthless.



And the wholly ignored Laura Brown FAA memo suggests Norad's not telling the truth.


What are the details of Ms Brown's memo?



WHICH BRINGS ME TO ME MY MAIN POINT… THERE IS A CIRCULAR SET OF CONTRADICTORY ACCOUNTS THAT MAKE EITHER POINT OF VIEW INCONCLUSIVE.[/COLOR]


This would be true, if we only had personal accounts of events. But we do not. We also have written records, radar data, tape recordings, and other primary evidence. Thus it becomes a matter of determining which accounts most accurately reflect the physical evidence.




Lets not confuse the issue of “intercept” with the issue of planes being shot down. Prior to June 1, 2001 Norad dealt on average with ~70 intercepts of straying planes or emergencies every year. Norad never shot any of these down. Nor did they justify sending fighters on the basis that they must be armed first in case they have to shoot down an aircraft. (A popular example is the Payne Stewart incident).
So it seems reasonable that flights 77 and 93 should have at least been intercepted and escorted by some fighter jets (especially over DC air space), whether or not they were able to shoot them down.


Woah.... hold on there a moment.

Firstly, NORAD carried out much more than 70 intercepts a year. There were 67 just in the six months prior to 9/11.

Secondly, every single one of these successful intercepts was carried out by an armed NORAD alert fighter (indeed, these are the only aircraft under NORAD's control).

Thirdly, every single one of these intercepts involved an aircraft entering the Air Defense Identification Zone (ADIZ) from outside the United States.

Fourthly, the intercept of Payne Stewart's learjet is the only example of a military intercept over the continental United States in the decade prior to 9/11.

Fifthly, the initial intercept of said learjet was carried out by a test pilot from Eglin AFB, not by a NORAD fighter.

Sixthly, said intercept took 81 minutes. The longest hijack duration of any flight on 9/11 was 41 minutes.

Seventhly, until 9/11 NORAD did not, and never had, a mandate to intercept aircraft over the continental United States.



Incidentally, Norad originally claimed they were not informed of ANY of the planes until each one had crashed. A week later they modified that assertion and issued a timeline that showed mostly FAA culpable in delaying contact with the military. Then 2-1/2 years the 911 Commission’s the Norad timeline changed again. The final timeline shows the FAA even more culpable/incompetent! Why did the Pentagon sit on the “facts” for 3 years?


Please provide evidence for the above claims or withdraw them.

NORAD has only ever released one official timeline of their response to 9/11. It was released shortly after the attacks, and left the blame for failure to intercept squarely in NORAD's lap. In their timeline they were notified in ample time to respond to the attacks, and were in a position to shoot down UA93, had it reached Washington DC.

This version of events remained unchallenged until the 9/11 commission report investigated events. Upon review of NORAD's tape recordings of the day, they determined that NORAD's official timeline was completely wrong.

The facts indicated that NORAD had actually done extremely well, despite being hampered by delays in communication from the FAA (having said that, had the FAA not broken protocol these delays would have been even longer).

These are the only two versions of events. The official released NORAD one, and the actual one.

The Commission alleges that NORAD intentionally deceived, however I am sceptical of this. It may seem incredible that the commanders of NORAD did not review the tapes between 2001 and 2003, however throughout that time NORAD was undertaking Operation Noble Eagle - a task that stretched their resources to breaking point. Noble Eagle began on the afternoon of 9/11, and continues to this day (though down-graded now).

NORAD's priority was providing protection to the USA, not reviewing tapes of what happened on 9/11.




My point as well. A valiant pilot could have stopped UA93 even if he had to ram it. No need to necessarily arm interceptor jets. We also know that the jetliner made a broad circle around the Pentagon before hitting the west side, and was a sitting duck to be shot out of the sky. Are there no anti-aircraft batteries at the Pentagon? I just don’t get the overall picture of incompetence from the NMCC.

There are no anti aircraft defences of any kind at the Pentagon.

Regardless of what pilots could have done (pilots from the 121st Fighter Squadron at Andrews AFB considered ramming the airliner, but were not confident of the results) the evidence unanimously indicates UA93 was flown into the ground intentionally by the hijackers to prevent passengers seizing control.

-Gumboot
 
Thanks for the reply, Gumboot.
(TAM says you're the go to guy for this Norad stuff. )
Maybe I'll review your posts on this matter and get up to speed before I bother you with further questions and responses.

BTW, Who's got time to analyze all this stuff ??
Doesn't anybody here have a day job??
:-)
 
I personally work 40-50h per week, and I am a father of 2 and a husband. I also have other hobbies, but in all the rest of the spare time (lol) I read all I can on 9/11.

TAM:)
 
Hmmmm, I'm wondering if Woody's really put it all together for us. Mineta apparently was considered something of a hero after 9-11 for his supposed ordering of the national groundstop. But in fact he did not order it (it is attributed in the Slate article to Monte Belger, and elsewhere to Ben Sliney and Jane Garvey), and if you look at his subsequent claims as attempts to push the clock back so he can be the hero, things start to fit. For example, he makes an absurd claim in this interview:

You mean ground all the planes?

Norman Mineta: Ground all the planes. We already had a ground hold on planes going into New York. Any plane that was going to leave from Atlanta heading to New York, those planes were left on the ground in Atlanta. That happened maybe about 8:30 or 8:40 in the morning. Now this is about 9:27.

Mmmmkay, anybody care to confirm that they had a ground hold on planes headed to NYC prior to the crash of AA11? It's laughable, right? He also mentions people running out of the White House in a panic, but that did not happen (obviously) until the Pentagon strike.
 
On the matter of the ground stop, I think part of the confusion might be terms.

A ground stop is simply a hold on all departures. American and United initially initiated ground stops on their flights, then the FAA took the step fo making New York airspace ATC Zero - that is no more air traffic could enter their airspace.

Then the FAA ordered a full ground stop on the east coast, then a nation wide ground stop was ordered.

After AA77 hit the Pentagon, however, Mineta took a further step, and rather just banning departures, he ordered every single flight in the USA to land at the nearest airport immediately, and established ATC Zero across the entire US. That's substantially more than just a ground stop.

-Gumboot
 
Even the notion that UA93 can account for the discrepancy is a little far fetched:
How could anyone think the plane that hit the Pentagon was approaching at 10:15 ??
Actually, all the evidence fits neatly like a jigsaw puzzle, with two exceptions: that Mineta recalled going into the PEOC much earlier than all the other evidence indicates, and the fact that he associated the conversation with AA77.

However, when asked about it, he readily admitted that he did not know that, it was just his impression. The fact is, human memory is fallible, and it's fallible in exactly that kind of way. Our long-term recollection of events is not done like a video tape; when we recall an event, our brains re-interpret it, and then that re-interpretation is stored in long-term memory instead. If we assume that Mineta recalled the morning's events in the next several hours, and then associated the memory of that conversation with AA77, then his long-term memory got that version, all the other pieces fit nicely together. In fact, that's the only way that it all makes sense, that an old man erroneously associated the timing of events after the fact.
 
After AA77 hit the Pentagon, however, Mineta took a further step, and rather just banning departures, he ordered every single flight in the USA to land at the nearest airport immediately, and established ATC Zero across the entire US.
And that, of course, caused international flights heading to the U.S. to have to land elsewhere, with most of those landing in Canada.
 

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