Sandstone

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Jan 13, 2007
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650
So Tricky , where do we go from here ?
Personally I believe that a picture is worth a thousand words and as a friend , who is in show biz once said " if you want to pitch a story do it in 50 words or less " , I would prefer to a series of short spiels with an accompaning pic .

Let me know if this is a suitable format and the correct place to do this .
 
So Tricky , where do we go from here ?
Personally I believe that a picture is worth a thousand words and as a friend , who is in show biz once said " if you want to pitch a story do it in 50 words or less " , I would prefer to a series of short spiels with an accompaning pic .

Let me know if this is a suitable format and the correct place to do this .
The place is fine. Now just tell us what you think these rocks mean, especially if you think they are of paranormal origin.

(For those wondering WTF, this thread was split, at my request from the Buzz Lightyear and the JREF Challenge thread. Look on the last couple of pages to get an idea of Buzz's geologic hypotheses.)
 
Wow, tricky, you gotta get this guy in with DJJ and this Dutch guy. They're naturals. I suspect, however, that the combination might be volatile and flammable. Perhaps they need their very own forum.
 
So Tricky , where do we go from here ?
Personally I believe that a picture is worth a thousand words and as a friend , who is in show biz once said " if you want to pitch a story do it in 50 words or less " , I would prefer to a series of short spiels with an accompaning pic .

Let me know if this is a suitable format and the correct place to do this .

As long as you operate within the Membership Agreement, you seem on track.

In the previous thread, you were unable to formulate one coherent claim for 12 freaking pages, but quite able to dance around, meander, weasel out and avoid straight inquiries. We should make gay inquiries, perhaps?
 
Wow, tricky, you gotta get this guy in with DJJ and this Dutch guy. They're naturals. I suspect, however, that the combination might be volatile and flammable. Perhaps they need their very own forum.

Nahh - waste of electrons. Just have them get a room so DJ can teach Dutch all about Jesus sex (see appropriate thread).
 
I never saw (or read or heard about) any evidence that any quartzite (or sandstone) cave was formed by some giant flying serpent...

Cave formation in quartzite and sandstone is a two-step phenomena. It starts with (i) Linear zones of increased porosity and permeability are created by chemical weathering along the intersection of fractures or fault zones with bedding or foliation planes. Rocks at these zones become friable (a proccess named sanding or arenisation), with its grains loosened. This stage usually takes place at a "stable" period, when the area is not suffering any major uplifit. This stage may take quite a long time. (ii) Groundwater flow is focused along these more permeable zones. Loose grains are removed mechanically by the water, creating small cyllindricall conduits (named pipes, hence the name piping for this process). Erosion continues to act, enlarging the conduits and eventually creating a cave. This stage may be linked to an uplifit period, when the base level is lowered and/or there is some regional tilting. The enlargening of the conduits may be relatively quick.

Step (i) involves the dissolution of small ammounts of quartz at the contacts between grains (specially at triple junctions between grains). Speleothems (cave formations such as stalactites, stalagmites, etc.) of silica may be formed by these silica-carrying waters, similar to what happens in limestone caves, but at a very smaller scale. Sandstone and quartzite cave formation seems to be more frequent at areas with intense rainfall (or areas that once had such climate) and a relatively lush vegetation. Streams with acid, tea-colored waters (due to the presence of tanine from decaying plants or peat) are common in areas with quartzite or sandstone caves.

Sorry, no rainbow serpent here. Move along.

And now, a shameless plug:
For more info on cave formation in general, try this book:
http://www.uis-karst.kiev.ua/uis_karst/SEKAcont.htm)
Chapter 7.3 deals with cave formation in quartzites and sandstones.
 
Well Tricky , my research to date has led me to believe that the Aboriginal " Rainbow serpent ' legends are based on actual events .
Their stories tell of how the land was a flat featureless plain until this mythical creature carved out the rivers and built up the mountains .

It seems that this creature had a body based on silicon and to fuel its metabolism it consumed the old sediment layers of the Narrabeen formation .
The excavation caused by its feeding carved out valleys in the landscape . Its wastes and byproducts then built up on the high spots where it roosted .
These wastes form what is now known as Hawkesbury sandstone .
The shapes that can be seen in this material are imprints the creature left as it sheltered in, and moved across its slowly drying discharge .

The most recognisable reptillian feature is the areas of discarded skin which form sections of this sandstone .
So for the time being it is probably best that I concentrate on these .
The attatched pic is the edge of one of these skins . As you can see each scale is a seperate plate overlapping the one underneath .
 
Buzz, I studied the geology of the Cumberland Basin for two years, and can probably get you a libraryfull of fully qualified and certified references to show how seriously WRONG and uninformed your ideas are.

So before you get your arse handed to you on a plate, do you REALLY want to go down that route, matey? Because believe me, it WILL happen if you do...

Of course, you could always just admit that you have been smoking a bit too much of the Byron good stuff lately. That would make far more sense.

Up to you!
 
You are absolutly right Zep .
I would rather not have my arse handed to me on a plate .

So lets all stick with the status quo .
We wouldn't want to start thinking that the Abbos actually knew anything .
We might have to start listening to them when they say that they dont want their lands mined . All that bloody " sacred site crap " .
 
You are absolutly right Zep .
I would rather not have my arse handed to me on a plate .

So lets all stick with the status quo .
We wouldn't want to start thinking that the Abbos actually knew anything .
We might have to start listening to them when they say that they dont want their lands mined . All that bloody " sacred site crap " .
No, that's not what I said. Read my post again and get back to me when you have a coherent response.

And the "abbos", as you so quaintly call them, don't need their dreamtime being perverted by you to pimp your silly notions. However I am tempted to ask what you did know of their legends and what they mean...care to enlighten us as to your depth of knowledge on this subject too?
 
The Aboriginal's stories tell that the land is a living entity . Every rock , tree , creature and human is a creation of the dreamtine entities that shaped this land .
They tell that nothing should be moved , mined , dug up or disturbed as it alters the energy that the ancestors imparted in the landscape .

They loved this land , as I do .
 
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The Aboriginal's stories tell that the land is a living entity . Every rock , tree , creature and human is a creation of the dreamtine entities that shaped this land .
They tell that nothing should be moved , mined , dug up or disturbed as it alters the energy that the ancestors imparted in the landscape.
That last bit is seriously wrong, right from the outset. I'd go do some more research, if I were you. Macquarie University has a whole section devoted to the extensive research and recording of Australian Aboriginal lore (as opposed to Australian law - that's the Law Department!).

And please don't draw inference from this that I'm a pro-mining pro-logging abos-are-bludgers run-the-bastards-over conservative. I'm not; quite far from it.

PS. I grew up with the Larrakeyah and the Tiwi in the NT. So I do know a little bit about the subject.
 
So tell me Zep , why did they demand that the devils marble, that was removed for John Flyns grave, be returned ,if it was just a rock ?
 
So tell me Zep , why did they demand that the devils marble, that was removed for John Flyns grave, be returned ,if it was just a rock ?
How would you feel if part of the Opera House roof was nicked and put over Arthur Phillip's grave in England?
 
So you consider that they did not think that it was a " sacred " object but merely a part of a collection .
Is that your answer to my question? You consider the Sydney Opera House to be "a collection"? If so, of what?
 
The opera house is just a pile of cement and steel , made by man .
One day it will just be landfill .
I do not think that it could be considered sacred .
 
Zep , I'm here for scientific feedback , not a fight .
I am pleased to be able to interact with people with geological knowledge and get their views . I thought this was a forum .
If it pleases you I will stay out of Aboriginal mythology and stick to the rocks .
 
Zep , I'm here for scientific feedback , not a fight .
I am pleased to be able to interact with people with geological knowledge and get their views . I thought this was a forum .
If it pleases you I will stay out of Aboriginal mythology and stick to the rocks .
Well, you brought it up, not me. But it is interesting to see you dodging that issue too. So I do hope you won't be resorting to aboriginal dreamtime legend and beliefs when it comes to the actual subject at hand. Yes?

So... On to geology!

So what exactly are your claims here about the sandstone around the Cumberland Basin sandstone strata? From the OP it would seem that you are indeed trying to make generic aboriginal legend (plus a lot of fanciful fairy-dust added on by you) as a basis for geological results around this region. Which we just agreed is not the subject of the thread.

So perhaps if you were more precise about it, laid your position out clearly for a change, we might make some progress. Do you agree?

Over to you now.
 
The opera house is just a pile of cement and steel , made by man .
One day it will just be landfill .
I do not think that it could be considered sacred .
One day the Devils Marbles will weather completely and be a pile of sand. In fact, they are well on the way now - that's how they got the shape they have now. They are, in fact, a reasonably recent geological formation. The rate of decay of steel and cement versus weathered sandstone suggests the Opera House will outlive them by a considerable margin.

Your point?

My question stands: How would you feel if part of the Opera House roof was nicked and put over Arthur Phillip's grave in England?
 
Well Tricky , my research to date has led me to believe that the Aboriginal " Rainbow serpent ' legends are based on actual events
What research, exactly, and why?


Their stories tell of how the land was a flat featureless plain until this mythical creature carved out the rivers and built up the mountains
You are, I presume, aware of the meaning of mythdict.


It seems that this creature had a body based on silicon and to fuel its metabolism it consumed the old sediment layers of the Narrabeen formation
What part of your research lead to this conclusion?


The excavation caused by its feeding carved out valleys in the landscape . Its wastes and byproducts then built up on the high spots where it roosted
What high spots, you said there was a flat featureless plain.


The shapes that can be seen in this material are imprints the creature left
Except some of your imprints are positive and should be negative.


The most recognisable reptillian feature is the areas of discarded skin which form sections of this sandstone
And how did this skin come to be filled with identical material?


So for the time being it is probably best that I concentrate on these
When they're explained will you try something easier like oxbow lakes or escarpments?
 
Everyone: Have you ever seen a high-octane sledgehammer dance with brittle sandstone?

(Zep, please just hand him his lunch. Let him keep his tuckus.)
 
Well Tricky , my research to date has led me to believe that the Aboriginal " Rainbow serpent ' legends are based on actual events .
Their stories tell of how the land was a flat featureless plain until this mythical creature carved out the rivers and built up the mountains .

It seems that this creature had a body based on silicon and to fuel its metabolism it consumed the old sediment layers of the Narrabeen formation .
First consider that no silicon-based serpents have ever been observed, nor have any serpents of that size been observed. That makes the whole scenario unlikely from the outset. Secondly, how exactly do silicates fuel anything? They are among the most stable of compounds and great energy must be added TO them in order to change them at all. As a fuel or food source, they would be useless.

The excavation caused by its feeding carved out valleys in the landscape . Its wastes and byproducts then built up on the high spots where it roosted .
These wastes form what is now known as Hawkesbury sandstone .
Polygonal poop? No, Buzz, we know what coprolite deposits look like. It is nothing like this. As the link I provided you earlier shows, the geologic history of the Hawkesbury sandstone can much more easily account for the geomorphology of the deposits than can the invocation of some never-before-seen creature.

Also, think that all you are seeing is the part of the Hawkesbury Sandstone that is exposed. There is much much more of it that is buried in layers somewhat concordant to the other formations of the area. This is exactly what you would expect if the layer were deposited by natural processes, like the braided stream deposits that most geologists think account for the H.S. If it were a "serpent", then it's poop would be scattered all over the place and at all levels, not in regular stratagraphic intervals.

The most recognisable reptillian feature is the areas of discarded skin which form sections of this sandstone .
So for the time being it is probably best that I concentrate on these .
The attatched pic is the edge of one of these skins . As you can see each scale is a seperate plate overlapping the one underneath .[URL="http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_1432345e2978169721.jpg"]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_1432345e2978169721.jpg[/URL]
There is a slight superficial resemblance to reptilian scales, but only a superficial resemblance. What you are looking are called "imbricate structures" and they are relatively common in geology. Note though that imbricate (overlapping) scales are not the kind of scales that serpents have. Snakes and lizards have scaly skin, but the scales are all joined together. They do not slide past each other, but rather they stretch. (Look closely at a snake skin to confirm this). Imbricate scales are more common on fish than reptiles.

Also note that when a snake sheds it's skin, the skin does not maintain its shape (because there is no longer a snake inside of it to hold it in shape) but collapses into a wrinkled and twisty heap. Also, it is hollow. Even if the empty skin got "filled in" it would not be filled with the same material that the skin was made of.

So in short, there is little evidence to support the "serpent" origin of the Hawkesbury sandstone and a vast amount of evidence against it. You can continue to believe (and you probably will) that it has an origin as described in centuries-old myths, but if you do, at least be aware that you are doing so against the evidence, not with it.
 
I have an idea:

make some (thick) pancake batter, pour it onto a pan on a cool heat,... wait and repeat on top of each other.

You could quite easily se patterns like that.

I understand that if this is sandstone that the mechanism would be different, but is so obviously the result of a natural (not supernatural) process.

Where I live in the peak district, the stones also form similar patterns.

Maybe they are actually evidence of ancient civilisations, when viewed under the sea ( I know Graham Hancock "is a really great researcher")

Jim
 
Thanks for your response jimbob .
I was hoping someone would say that they had seen similar formations .
Do you have any photographs of what you have seen and do you know the co-ordinates of the sites ?

And Zep , since you have studied the geology of this area, is it possible that you could give me your thoughts on how you believe the polygons formed .
While you are at it could you also let me know how you imagine the circular depression in the attatched pic was created .
 
This particular site is located adjacent the Elvina track at West Head .
The co-ordinates are : 33 deg 38' 41.55" south
151 deg 15' 45.81" east
 
I assume , Zep , since you didn't answer my querie as to the origin of the polygons and you requested their location , that you are going to have a look for yourself .
To find them is pretty simple , just turn off the West Head road into the Elvina track carpark . Head down the Elvina track for about 100 meters then turn right and go up a well worn path for another 100 meters to a set of Aboriginal engravings .
By then heading South for about another 50 meters you will be on the most interesting of the formations .
The Southern and Western edges will give you the best look at their structure .

While you are there head up the ridge to the East . Its a nice walk and you will see many examples of the polygons on the way . As you go you will see an interesting silhouette of the peak of the ridge ,as in the attatched pic .
From the top look down on the Southern slope .

The best time to do this is early morning or late afternoon as the shadows give better definition . It is probably at its best after a light shower of rain . If you take your lunch and have it under the Angophora's at West Head it is a great day out .
 
Yes, it is certainly possible for me to go see them for myself. And I will if I can get the time.

However I'll take a reasonable shot at what they are even before I go: They are simply a weathered sandstone layer.

The Cumberland Basin sandstones, including those in the Hawkesbury region, are the result of a coastal environment similar to what you find along the east of Cape York today: Coastal sand dunes and vegetation, the occasional sandy swamps and wetlands (a good example today is behind Jibbon Beach near Bundeena), litoral zones (including beaches), and shallow sandy water. This formed a very large and relatively flat basin of sandstones of various types formed from both dry dunes and wetter sand deposits. Occasionally there were different sedimentary rocks in layers between, including vegetation that later formed coal seams (at Bondi and Coalcliff, for example).

As the land rose in comparison to the sea level (at Bondi cliffs you can still see the evidence of the original sea-level some 30 metres above the current sea-level), runoff water from inland cut through the sandstones and made steep valleys. Some of these valleys near the coast have been flooded in recent (geological) times - Broken Bay, Sydney Harbour and Port Hacking. Botany Bay is literally a shallow swamp at a river outlet that has been flooded. Further inland, these valleys still exist - Megalong and Grose Valleys. Specific layers of sandstone can be tracked easily enough from the ocean right back over 100 kilometres to Mt Victoria.

Of course, this is all greatly simplified, but it will do for illustrative purposes.

To your sample: As a bed of sand and mud dries in a swamp or lake, they form these shapes but only for a shallow depth. We have pictures of these by the thousand every day as a result of the drought, as you know. Some time a long LONG time ago (tens of millions of years, let's say), this is what happened in that region - you can see the rock is made of finer material (mud) and sand. Then the dry lakebed was covered with dry sand from dunes, etc, and buried. Move forward some millions more years as the overlying sandstone is now weathered away, exposing the old dry lake bed. Viola - old polygons of stone. Some are missing, I would suggest, simply because someone picked them up and took them away for use as "bush rock" garden path pavers. There are people who do that, you know...
 
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Zep. Please stop pouring cold water. It erodes the sandstone.
This is far too funny to debunk.
 
To your sample: As a bed of sand and mud dries in a swamp or lake, they form these shapes but only for a shallow depth. We have pictures of these by the thousand every day as a result of the drought, as you know. Some time a long LONG time ago (tens of millions of years, let's say), this is what happened in that region - you can see the rock is made of finer material (mud) and sand. Then the dry lakebed was covered with dry sand from dunes, etc, and buried. Move forward some millions more years as the overlying sandstone is now weathered away, exposing the old dry lake bed. Viola - old polygons of stone. Some are missing, I would suggest, simply because someone picked them up and took them away for use as "bush rock" garden path pavers. There are people who do that, you know...
Yes, we have many examples of fossilized mud cracks, and that is one possible scenario. Based on my googleresearch though, these, however, do not appear to be an example of this. They are quartzite, which is a low-grade metamorphic rock that occurs when you subject sandstones to great heat and pressure either because of burial or high temperature gradients associated with volcanism. Essentially, it fuses the grains, making it much harder and less fissile than sandstone, although the gradation between sandstone and quartzite is wide.

Heat and pressure compress (and sometimes partially melt) the sandstone, so much that there if virtually no pore space between the grains. The rock and the cement become one continuous quartz matrix. (Think of how a package of hard candy looks and how they individual pieces stick together when left in a hot car)

But eventually, parts of the sandstone may get exposed by continued erosion. When this happens, the heat and pressure are removed. Cooling causes the rock to actually shrink, but decompression causes the formation (as a whole) to expand. When that happens, the rock fractures. Fractures now fill some of the volume previously occupied by the now shrinking rock. In some rocks, the fractures are very irregular. Most often, fractures occur along and perpendicular to bedding planes, which are natural planes of weakness. However, in extremely homogeneous rocks, most classically, basalt, but occasionally pure quartzites, there are no planes of weakness so the fractures occur almost like crystal cleavage. Fracture occur in very regular patterns. These fractures can go quite deep into the rock (like the columnar basalts at Devil's Tower and Devil's Postpile), or they may be more superficial. I'm not sure about the Hawkesbury Sandstone, but I suspect you would see those vertical fractures continue deep into the formation.

But the surface of the now-exposed formation is the part that is subject to erosion, so you will often see widening and smoothing of the cracks near the surface as the edges are worn off by time and the elements, just as you see the edges of the writing wear down on very old tombstones. So it may appear that the cracks are very shallow. You simply can't see the hairline fractures deep into the rocks.

This truly is a marvelous and rare geomorph, well worth oohing and ahhing over. I'd love to see it myself, and perhaps I'll make it a point when I finally get to Oz. But for all it's beauty and look of being "created" by some living hand, (or rectum) it is easily explainable by natural processes. Sometimes, really quite often, geoscientists disagree on the precise mechanism (just as Zep and I are doing here), but you can be pretty sure that they have plenty of ideas to test before they get desperate enough to throw up their hands and say, "Must be polygonal poop from a supersized silicate serpent."
 
Thank you Tricky and Zep for taking the time to reply with your informative and constuctive comments .

The flaw in Zep's hypothesis ,is as Tricky pointed out, the material that was erroded from the cracks would have had to have been very soft or water soluable to be so completly removed . None of which occurs in this area . Also the polygons are not missing , they are still there, but squashed .

And the problem with Tricky's ,is that the polygons are not semi-fused quartzite but quite easily broken sandstone .

Never the less , your information has given me useful points of reference to work with when I next visit the site . Hopefully I will be able to photograph situations that disprove both your theories .

Anyway, if you ever need a tour guide for an interesting trip over the sandstones drop me a line , I'm always looking for an excuse to venture down into that neck of the woods .
 
And the problem with Tricky's ,is that the polygons are not semi-fused quartzite but quite easily broken sandstone .
Then the information I googled on it was wrong. Although it is true that weathering can change the characteristics of any rock. If it is easily broken when weathered, then that might explain the large gaps between the polygons.

Never the less , your information has given me useful points of reference to work with when I next visit the site . Hopefully I will be able to photograph situations that disprove both your theories.
Do you see what you have written here? This is why it is unlikely you will find out the real story behind the formation. You have already decided that the two theories are wrong. This is why science is better than myth at finding truth.
 
Thank you Tricky and Zep for taking the time to reply with your informative and constuctive comments .

The flaw in Zep's hypothesis ,is as Tricky pointed out, the material that was erroded from the cracks would have had to have been very soft or water soluable to be so completly removed . None of which occurs in this area . Also the polygons are not missing , they are still there, but squashed .
Erm, no. Quite wrong there. The sand on top only has to be less cohesive, less compressed, more friable to be eroded away more readily, thus exposing the harder material underneath.

Not all sandstones have the same cohesiveness. I did mention that this formation was covered by drier sand (i.e. sand dunes), didn't I? Such sand, when compressed is indeed a lot easier to weather away - it can even be done with abrading wind. I'm sure you can find examples of local sandstones in Sydney that you can literally crumble in your hand, or break easily with a light hammer. That stuff was formed from dune sands. The reason you don't find it too often is that it has already been eroded away!

Not all sandstones are the same cohesiveness. Some do indeed form very solid and durable masses. Examples are from the sandstone quarries at Wondabyne, which have been used for decades in local housing. Others are more friable. Best examples are along most of our beaches - the sea caves on the cliffs and the beaches full of white weathered sand.

The polygons are not really "squashed" at all. They are simply the result of a fairly shallow lake or swamp region drying up, leaving a reasonably thin layer of cracked mud and sand.



And the problem with Tricky's ,is that the polygons are not semi-fused quartzite but quite easily broken sandstone .
See above.

Never the less , your information has given me useful points of reference to work with when I next visit the site . Hopefully I will be able to photograph situations that disprove both your theories .
How about, instead of trying to disprove theories, forget all about them and you go looking for actual facts instead?

[gil-grissom]
Then let the evidence lead you to the conclusions!
[/gil-grissom]

Anyway, if you ever need a tour guide for an interesting trip over the sandstones drop me a line , I'm always looking for an excuse to venture down into that neck of the woods .
Thanks, but you have already indicated where it is now. When I get the time, I'll go take a look myself.
 
I'd like to butt in and ask you guys if there are any websites with databases of interesting rock formations around because I like to look at them! Ta.
 
Ah. Here is one of the sources I was looking at. Looks like it might have been contact metamorphism, meaning proximity to very hot stuff (an igneous intrusion in this case) changed the characteristics of the rock. Not high pressures as I mentioned earlier.

Temperature does odd things to silicates. Sometimes you'll see a pane of glass (and not just safety glass) shatter into small polygons as a result of too-rapid cooling.
An outcrop of prismatised sandstone with a checkered surface occurs just north of De Burghs Bridge. The columned joining of the sandstone is the result of heating, probably by a nearby igneous intrusion, then cooling, shrinkage and polygonal cracking.


An outcrop of prismatised sandstone with a checkered surface occurs just north of De Burghs Bridge. The columned joining of the sandstone is the result of heating, probably by a nearby igneous intrusion, then cooling, shrinkage and polygonal cracking.
An outcrop of prismatised sandstone with a checkered surface occurs just north of De Burghs Bridge. The columned joining of the sandstone is the result of heating, probably by a nearby igneous intrusion, then cooling, shrinkage and polygonal cracking.
 

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