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#1 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 7,854
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Testing for Absurdity, or The Gravy Line
This idea is an outgrowth of the "Skepticism vs. Cynicism" thread, in which we attempted to clarify the difference between the two. I first floated this idea in this post, and it seemed to resonate with some readers. This also follows my previous efforts to treat Conspiracy Theories in the abstract, such as my Inflationary Theory and its limiting case.
Introduction In evaluating alternate theories, and conspiracy theories in particular, one often desires to distinguish whether a theory is plausible, if unlikely, or whether a theory is absurd. This distinction is important to a skeptic, because a skeptic should always respond logically and rationally to a plausible theory, even if it contradicts previous theories and especially if it contradicts poorly supported belief and conjecture. An absurd theory, on the other hand, may and in many cases should be simply dismissed. No amount of logical analysis can salvage an inherently illogical proposition. Unfortunately, the question of how to identify an absurd theory remains open. The problem of evaluation is in many respects parallel to determining the burden of proof, in the sense that the more plausible theories have a lower burden of proof, or conversely that an argument partially or wholly satisfying its burden of proof is inherently more plausible. This consideration, however, does not give us any actionable formula, since burden of proof is also subjective. While some attempts to quantify burden of proof exist, primarily in the field of trial law, this standard is not directly applicable to philosophy or science. In the absence of a clear standard, perceptions of bias are inevitable, as effort is spent debunking some theories that are entirely without merit, whereas other competing ideas may be judged and rejected prematurely. We will attempt to rectify this situation through a general process. Description Sorting the plausible from the absurd is inherently a subjective process, and no truly abstract quantification is possible. However, we can look to methods of estimation present in the engineering sciences for inspiration. In particular, I will draw upon the process of Probabilistic Risk Assessment, or PRA. Risk management through PRA is an attempt to quantify individual risks in a given process, project, or product according to likelihood, potential impact, and possible mitigation. In a PRA exercise, these quantities are often gathered from the strictly subjective opinions of experts, supported with more focused studies or historical statistics where possible and needed, and propagates these quantities in order to arrive at an aggregate risk estimate. This process is similar to ours in that the inputs are inherently subjective, a large number of individual factors affect an overall conclusion, and we desire a quantfied result with enough fidelity to make a decision. Using this as a guide, we will model a skeptic evaluating a Conspiracy Theory as a simple engineering process, with characteristics of the Theory and the ensuing discussion as contributors or mitigations to overall risk. The risk itself in this case is the risk that a Conspiracy Theory is in fact absurd, leading to an ultimately fruitless discussion with no grounding in reality. Method All quantities in the following discussion are subjective. Users of this method may adjust the numerical parameters as they see fit. Baseline We begin our approach by assessing the type of argument offered. This is broken into three categories. We assign a numerical score according to the best classification of the argument, hereafter referred to as the plausibility score, as follows: 1. Complete Theory (Score = 1.0): An argument that is complete and self-consistent, allowing examination of a single coherent hypothesis.The three categories are separated by a factor of 0.5 -- one step from Complete Theory to Partial Theory, and another step from Partial Theory to Anomaly or Artifact. This multiplicative approach and valuation is consistent with the following steps, as we adjust the plausibility score according to specifics of the argument. Adjustments We will model adjustments to the plausibility score as either positive or negative, and either major or minor, as follows: 1. Major positives: Attributes or events that significantly improve the quality, plausibility, and verifiability of the argument. Examples include presentation of repeatable and verifiable calculations, predictions that are made and confirmed, and adaptation of the argument to new evidence that strengthens the argument through discussion with non-advocates.Each incidence of an adjustment should be noted and classified. One by one, each adjustment has a multiplicative effect on the cumulative plausibility score as follows: Major postive: Multiply by 2 (i.e. divide by 0.5)Following the method above, the higher quality an argument has, the higher its plausibility score will be. The score will change over time, as discussion either reveals or corrects flaws in the argument, and new evidence permits a more accurate assessment. This may cause a previously plausible argument to be revealed as absurd, and in rare cases, an absurd theory may be salvaged. In like fashion, a Partial Theory without flaws has an equivalent score to a Complete Theory with one major flaw, etc. Decision Threshold Much as individual project managers have different tolerances for risk, individual posters may have different tolerances for a hopeless argument. The author recommends a threshold value of 0.05, signifying an approximate confidence level of 95%. Any argument with a plausibility score below this value may be said to be "absurd," and unworthy of further contemplation, until it is significantly improved. This process also captures why the argument fails the test, and further provides an estimate as to how much reworking is needed for it to become a useful point of discussion. This threshold is referred to as the "Gravy Line." In sporting terms, this is reminiscent of the "Mendoza Line," a threshold of futility below which performance can be considered not up to professional standards. Why the "Gravy Line?" The plausibility threshold resembles a "water mark" in that it attempts to classify a wide range of arguments against a single limit. Gravy, like water, seeks its own level, but unlike water is opaque, and also viscous, with arguments falling below the Line unlikely to ever resurface or to be seen again. Arguments that fail this test can be said to have been debunked by Gravy. Examples We close with two brief case studies to illustrate the process. 1. With Pakistani Intelligence serving as a link, the CIA supported the September 11th attacks. (thread) Given that the premise accepts the other features of the attacks as reported, only adding this important detail, this can be viewed as a complete theory. Its initial plausibility score is 1.0.2. Analysis of television news footage proves that, instead of jetliners hitting the World Trade Center as was widely reported, the event was hoaxed using digital video editing techniques and special effects. (thread) The theory presented is not complete, because it does not describe how the attacks really were carried out (and leaves no readily apparent candidate), who did this, or why. We must treat this as an Anomaly or Artifact, and assign an initial plausibility score of 0.25.Disclaimers All effort in this whitepaper was conducted using my own materials on my own time. All opinions are strictly my own. I do not represent any agency, public or private. The method outlined above is only the barest approximation of a true PRA approach. Use at your own risk. The discussion above contains no export-controlled technology or schematics. Enjoy. |
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#2 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 26,103
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This sounds like an El Segundo paper.
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#3 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,671
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Brilliant!
Someone should write up a program to more easily calculate the Gravy Line, and store arguments for future reference and adjustment. |
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#4 |
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 13,796
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So the "Gravy Line" is all theories within 2 standard deviations of the Normal Population. Which makes perfect sense since the other 5% of theories and those that support them are not part of the normal population
![]() Well done Mackey. |
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#5 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 7,854
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For beachnut, aero guy to aero guy, off-topic, it may interest you to know that there is now a winery called Six Sigma, makers of a particularly crisp if pricey Sauvignon Blanc. The founder is among the developers of the PRA tool by the same name.
Cheers. |
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#6 |
Nasty Brutish and Tall
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Canberra
Posts: 17,473
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Excellent work as usual Mr Mackey.
Is it possible to group theories below the Gravy line into sub-categories? Just barely below the line might be considered to be part of a group of theories designated "Rodrigan" or "Averyan". While those deeper in the Gravy might be "Bakered" or "Half-Bakered" perhaps... |
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#7 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,685
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Nice post Mackey, that was good reading. Most of the truther theories require numerous negative adjustments. I wonder how much is left to debate if all necessary adjustments are made
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9/11 Guide homepage Conspiracy theories abound and I believe firmly that all of them are without merit. - Chief Daniel Nigro |
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#9 |
Misanthrope of the Mountains
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 24,124
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Awesome. Well reasoned. I'd love to see Truthers try anything like this.
Now we just need to get a database going. ETA: No, a spreadsheet, Truthers love spreadsheets! |
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"Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com
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#10 |
Writer of Nothingnesses
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 11,156
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Mackey: I think your post itself is absurd, if you don't mind my saying. It's a lot of fancy postulates and formulas and estimates, all held together with stuff one pours over smashed taters. And for all that: It says nothing, and solves zip.
This is a joke, right? Your tongue was firmly buried in your cheek whilst you pounded out this gem? |
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#11 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 26,103
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That sounds familiar, thanks.
OK, who saw me pick up my futures and pack the Honda with cases Sunday? Your scoring method is okay. Why score the 9/11 truthers, you would use it to identify targets worth move investigation. Tools are used with less method, and much more madness. |
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#12 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,671
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#13 |
Writer of Nothingnesses
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 11,156
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I suppose. However, sure as ten dimes buys a buck - I'll never apply it. Something (woman's intuition) tells me neither will James Randi.
I develop software as an engineer. I guess I could come up with a good program model for debunking that would make as much sense. THAT'S IT!!!111one!! I'll subroutine the twoofer pukes into an endless loop!!!1111eleventy!1111 |
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#14 |
Downsitting Citizen
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 17,078
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Two boats up!
![]() Despite coming from an engineer – and one who is known for his "spacey" thinking, no less – I think this system has great promise. It could be an excellent educational tool for truthers and debunkers. I'll need to test it for a while before it replaces my current method, which is to drop a claim in a mug of beer and if it sinks it's plausible; if it floats it's absurd. I propose calling this boundary of Bozotude the "Mackey Mark" or the "Demackation."* *'Cause I sure as hell won't have it named after me! |
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"Please, keep your chops cool and don’t overblow.” –Freddie Hubbard |
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#15 |
Downsitting Citizen
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 17,078
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"Please, keep your chops cool and don’t overblow.” –Freddie Hubbard |
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#16 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,672
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Very nice, but at the moment I'm pursuing a different tack - I'm trying to determine a way to "bound" the stupidity of conspiracy theories. Is there a maximum level of stupidity that even the most stupifying theory cannot exceed? Thoughts on this are appreciated.
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#17 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,685
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9/11 Guide homepage Conspiracy theories abound and I believe firmly that all of them are without merit. - Chief Daniel Nigro |
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#18 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 11,286
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The opening post was like . . . really long.
Is there a version done in comic strip form, since those are the only threads I read any more? |
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#19 |
Curing Stupidity
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,158
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I can make a program for calculating this. It'd actually be rather easy, seeing as the maths and options are simple.
Let me know if you think it's a good idea. |
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#20 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 7,682
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#21 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,685
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9/11 Guide homepage Conspiracy theories abound and I believe firmly that all of them are without merit. - Chief Daniel Nigro |
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#22 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,795
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I'm all for this "Gravy Line", but the bigger question is, what happened to the "Gravy Train"?
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#23 |
Game Warden
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,321
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I would have thought the scientific method would have been good enough.
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"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into." --Jonathan Swift Blog - Corrected By Reality. My debunking videos, and philosophy on YouTube Totovader's 9/11 Conspiracy Challenge Still unanswered! |
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#24 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,542
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The problem with this metric is it's too difficult to calculate in your head. I shall help! The good news is it can be faithfully described in log space as an additive metric instead of a multiplicative metric! Aren't you excited!?
I propose an alternate metric, A, which is a transformed version of the original metric, M. My metric faithfully represents all the properties of the original but with the added benefit of being incredibly easy to calculate in your head. I'll save you all the derivation but... Every initial theory starts off at 0. A partial theory counts as a major negative. An 'artifact' counts as an additional major negative. Major negatives are -1.0 Minor negatives are -0.333 (or -1/3) Minor positives are +0.333 (or 1/3) Major positives are +1.0 In this revised system, you add, not multiply (which should be fairly easy to do mentally). And the Mackey Line (M=0.05) corresponds to an A=-4.333... or negative 4 and 1/3. In case you care, my metric is merely a transform of Mackeys, where M = 2^A, where M is the original metric, and A is the anti-sophist metric! Since mine is an exponent, multiplying Ms is actually adding As. Voila! |
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A witty saying proves nothing. -Voltaire |
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#25 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,154
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#26 |
The Clarity Is Devastating
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Betwixt
Posts: 19,784
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I have a horrible suspicion that R.Mackey copied this from the character creation section of GURPS: Troother.
Respectfully, Myriad |
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A zømbie once bit my sister... |
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#27 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,154
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#28 |
Merchant of Doom
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not in Hell, but I can see it from here on a clear day...
Posts: 15,037
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History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it just yells "Can't you remember anything I told you?" and lets fly with a club. - John w. Campbell |
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#29 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,672
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#30 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,293
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#31 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 11,097
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Perhaps it should be submitted to the Journal of Irreproducible Results.
Although, since the calculations are reproducible, it may not qualify. |
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#32 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 19,568
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I like the concept although of course it gets a bit slippery when one tries to decide whether something requires a major negative adjustment and of course you are actually analyzing the claim in order to determine whether it is worth analyzing, which seems a bit circular to me.
However, I do think all debunkers have a mental Gravy Line beyond which they will not bother. For example, Killtown often begs me to try debunking his claim that Val McClatchey's photo was faked. I've never quite felt inclined to bother for the simple reason that it means nothing. You could argue that it amounts to an anomaly or artifact, but scoring it at .25 seems quite a bit generous. For me the key becomes more "If true, what does this imply?" And in the case of Val's photo, the answer is "not much". Indeed, it does nothing for the "Inside Job" theory. It's just one of those shiny objects that the Deniers seem to collect like packrats. It's much like this ridiculous fascination with the BBC's announcement that WTC 7 had collapsed before it actually did. |
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My new blog: Recent Reads. 1960s Comic Book Nostalgia Visit the Screw Loose Change blog. |
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#33 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,448
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I like it! I think it would be particularly useful for comparative purposes. I'd love to see a plausibilometer graph of Truther arguments.
It does seem to apply particularly well to a discussion, such as keeping score of a theory in a forum thread. You should cross-post this in the General Skepticism forum and see what they think. |
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#34 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 310
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Plausibilometer. I like it. Can we make it so that if you input an absurd theory a spring launches a boxing glove into yer kisser?
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#35 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 7,682
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I know a guy that tried to argue that since his char was a dwarf, he would be able to survive a fall off a skyscraper if he aimed his PAC at the ground and started shooting. He thought the recoil would be sufficient to slow his descent.
Did I mention I was once a Tourney GM for Shadowrun at Gencon and serveral of the developers are friends of mine? |
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#36 |
Salted Sith Cynic
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 38,527
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__________________
Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis |
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#37 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 307
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-"Only by following the trail that civilization and the human spirit have gone along to reach a higher stage of development is it possible to know and understand one's fellow man".- E.C. Van Leersum, 1862-1938, prof. Medical History, University of Leiden, The Netherlands. |
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#38 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,050
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Interesting Idea...
I would also suggest proofing the math through a historical example. For example take a subject that at one point was a conspiracy theory, but later after the release of documents, further evidence, etc. the conspiracy theory becomes a conspiracy fact.
If the math shows the particular conspiracy theory to be absurd, when in fact the conspiracy theory at the time was actually a conspiracy fact, what does that say about the formula? Is it a junk formula? Send the whole thing through a case example and see how it plays out. |
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#39 |
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,756
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Mr. Mackey, sir, when you resort to such overt falsehoods, so often, you reveal the weakness of your own position. Below is your "no planes" example, with errors explained.
Mackey, your approach is correct. If you could just be honest, you would see that the no planes theory survives your test, and sits comfortably above the gravy line. |
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#40 |
Muse
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 571
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"Killtown, your brain is like the four headed, man-eating haddock fish beast of Aberdeen." - Fr Ted @ LCF |
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