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Old 27th June 2012, 05:05 AM   #1
DaveThomasNMSR
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4th Richard Gage-Dave Thomas Debate, June 28th 2012

I'll be debating Richard Gage on WMNF 88.5 FM in Tampa, Florida, at 10:00 AM EDT.



You can listen live here . It will be archived as well.

Ideas? Suggestions? Where did Bill Smith go?
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Old 27th June 2012, 05:57 AM   #2
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You did a great job debating over the 9/11 weekend. You showed respect for your listeners and talked with obvious awareness of them without getting entangled with Richard Gage. The latest data on Millette is in your hands, and is much more current than the stuff Gage says. And BTW he states incorrect information on that study. Be sure everyone knows the results were: NO THERMITE. He says UNKNOWN MYSTERY PRODUCT MILLETTE CAN'T IDENTIFY, which is technically true but misses the main point.

Ask him about the chris mohr YouTube rebuttals. He actually speaks somewhat highly of them and they may be a way to get Gage's blessings on one of his critics' work. I'll see if I can tune in!
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Old 27th June 2012, 07:08 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by chrismohr View Post
You did a great job debating over the 9/11 weekend. You showed respect for your listeners and talked with obvious awareness of them without getting entangled with Richard Gage. The latest data on Millette is in your hands, and is much more current than the stuff Gage says. And BTW he states incorrect information on that study. Be sure everyone knows the results were: NO THERMITE. He says UNKNOWN MYSTERY PRODUCT MILLETTE CAN'T IDENTIFY, which is technically true but misses the main point.

Ask him about the chris mohr YouTube rebuttals. He actually speaks somewhat highly of them and they may be a way to get Gage's blessings on one of his critics' work. I'll see if I can tune in!
Thanks Chris!

FWIW, here are links to the previous debates we've had:Cheers, Dave
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Old 27th June 2012, 07:25 AM   #4
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listening for debate, can't find it. Other subjects are being talked about...
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Old 27th June 2012, 07:41 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by chrismohr View Post
listening for debate, can't find it. Other subjects are being talked about...
That's because it is to happen tomorrow, Thursday, June 28th, 10:00 AM EDT.

Sorry 'bout that!
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Old 27th June 2012, 08:48 AM   #6
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Cool. I'll see if I can tune in.
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Old 27th June 2012, 01:37 PM   #7
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duh - wrong thread for me -- I'll dial in for call as well, good luck!
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Old 27th June 2012, 01:39 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Trojan View Post
duh - wrong thread for me -- I'll dial in for call as well, good luck!
Alrighty then!
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Old 27th June 2012, 01:47 PM   #9
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I have to wonder, Why give Gage the attention?

By "debating" him you imply his arguement has some sort of credibility. Do you think this is true?

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Old 27th June 2012, 01:58 PM   #10
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As a side note.

In Gages last series of shows he had two gigs scheduled at AIA facilities. As we all know they did not endorse these shows.

The first show in Washington was attended by no Architects. The second show was cancelled with no explanation.

You might want to ask him why he uses the "AIA" after his name when it's clear he has no support of the organisation.

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Old 27th June 2012, 02:38 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by DaveThomasNMSR View Post
I'll be debating Richard Gage on WMNF 88.5 FM in Tampa, Florida, at 10:00 AM EDT.

http://donationsstatic.ebay.com/exte...os/MF31426.jpg

You can listen live here . It will be archived as well.

Ideas? Suggestions? Where did Bill Smith go?
Cool Dave

Be sure to attack him on the iron-rich sphere canard, in terms of the depressed melting points of various metal mixtures, and the fact that the spheres mostly contain a lot of other stuff like Si... and of course that you can make them at home with a Bic lighter.

I also think one of the weakest points of the nanothermite claim is the sheer fact that Harrit's own XEDS show a relatively tiny amount of either Al or Fe, I think in red chip sample D there's more Si than Fe; and about 70% organic binder. So isn't it chemically impossible for a thermitic reaction to occur?

Ask him why no other thermite on the planet could work this way, but theirs magically does? have they suspended the laws of chemistry?

Also ask him why he keeps evading the fact that the collapse of WTC 7 took much longer than his videos claim, and why AE911Truth avoids talking about the descent of the E mechanical penthouse, since this is directly relevant to the reasons of collapse.

And while you're at it, make sure to ask him how an explosive demolition could occur without any explosions as the building falls. It has never happened like that before, challenge his followers to find a youtube video which can demonstrate this occurrence.
Ask him why FDNY personnel are on record stating that they felt 7 was likely to collapse, and pulled the search and rescue efforts (which is a really big deal) by about 2pm on 9/11. Does he think FDNY are part of some conspiracy, or maybe is his theory wrong?

You might also mention that Femr2 has analyzed the video data and determined that the building facade (not the entire building, of course) may have fallen FASTER than freefall for up to 1 second. Ask him how explosives could make something fall faster than freefall! I'd like to hear him run away from that one... would be fun.

Make sure to point out that real CD's don't usually fall at freefall anyway, and neither did WTC 1 or 2, so it is a meaningless assertion to use it as some kind of 'proof'. Ask him if the scientific literature or industry literature on demolitions supports his claim, and ask him to cite such a paper in support of his claims.

That's all I got. Good luck and have fun. Keep on kicking the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight!
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Old 27th June 2012, 07:31 PM   #12
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Here's a question that I'd like you to ask him.

No serious researcher, NONE, NOT ONE:

1. presents his/her case on YouTube or the internet or on radio talk shows.

2. just asks questions, and draws no conclusions.

3. asks the public to decide for themselves.


What they do is:

1. prepare their arguments very, very carefully, consult with experts in the pertinent fields & then submit them to peer-reviewed publications. Then they bring their results to panels of experts within the field.

Why hasn't Gage presented to the MOST prestigious panel of structural engineers that he can find, rather than college campuses and public meetings?

Is the answer that he cannot get in front of any prestigious panel of structural engineers because those experts know what a load of crock he is selling?
(Answer: absolutely. Ask the AIA.)

2. Serious researchers draw conclusions. As many as they can. If they have no conclusions to present, they keep quiet until they can present conclusions.

3. Why would a serious researcher ask amateurs (the public) what they think? Would he bring discussions of high energy physics or cutting edge medical treatments to the public & ask what they think? Or would he/she bring them to the American Physical Society & JAMA?
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Old 27th June 2012, 08:51 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by tfk View Post
Here's a question that I'd like you to ask him.

No serious researcher, NONE, NOT ONE:

1. presents his/her case on YouTube or the internet or on radio talk shows.

2. just asks questions, and draws no conclusions.

3. asks the public to decide for themselves.


What they do is:

1. prepare their arguments very, very carefully, consult with experts in the pertinent fields & then submit them to peer-reviewed publications. Then they bring their results to panels of experts within the field.

Why hasn't Gage presented to the MOST prestigious panel of structural engineers that he can find, rather than college campuses and public meetings?

Is the answer that he cannot get in front of any prestigious panel of structural engineers because those experts know what a load of crock he is selling?
(Answer: absolutely. Ask the AIA.)

2. Serious researchers draw conclusions. As many as they can. If they have no conclusions to present, they keep quiet until they can present conclusions.

3. Why would a serious researcher ask amateurs (the public) what they think? Would he bring discussions of high energy physics or cutting edge medical treatments to the public & ask what they think? Or would he/she bring them to the American Physical Society & JAMA?
And then there are serious besmirchers who use psuedonyms and post nonsense on forums trying to defend a clearly discredited theory for how the WTC buildings collapsed.

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Old 27th June 2012, 10:15 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Tony Szamboti View Post
And then there are serious besmirchers who use psuedonyms and post nonsense on forums trying to defend a clearly discredited theory for how the WTC buildings collapsed.
In what peer reviewed journal will your "missing jolt" "paper" show up? When will it be published and where can I get a copy?

How about ANY truther "paper"? When will one get into a real (read not vanity journal which will publish your laundry list for $700)
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Old 27th June 2012, 11:18 PM   #15
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10am, thats like 4am my time.. i'll try and listen..
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Old 28th June 2012, 12:22 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by DaveThomasNMSR View Post
I'll be debating Richard Gage on WMNF 88.5 FM in Tampa, Florida, at 10:00 AM EDT.

http://donationsstatic.ebay.com/exte...os/MF31426.jpg

You can listen live here . It will be archived as well.

Ideas? Suggestions? Where did Bill Smith go?
Good luck, Dave.

Could you please ask him when his petition, which is addressed to the US Congress, will be presented to the US Congress?
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Old 28th June 2012, 03:45 AM   #17
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While I applaud your bravery, at this point I think any attempt to engage the Truther folk is a waste of life. But if you find it fun, why not? And either way, best of luck.

What I'd like to know is what Gage thinks about the future of his organization. It's clear now that they are not attracting the kind of construction professionals that have a larger professional voice in this matter. It is clear from the growth of AE9/11T that all the recruitment of new names on the list is being done by Gage and not through even a small number of convicted professional recruiting new names. It's clear that the idea of a demolition on 9/11 has not made a deeper impact on professional knowledge among construction professionals. In fact, of all the names on the AE9/11T list, only Gage and his inner circle appear involved in recruitment and production of knowledge about the so-called 9/11 demolition. So even the larger number of names on his petition has made no larger professional impact.

What's he going to do next? Does he even have a plan now that it's clear he's made no noticeable professional impact?
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Old 28th June 2012, 05:19 AM   #18
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There's a promo page.

Quote:
Radioactivity: Live Call-In (Thursday) Jun 28 2012 10:00AM Add to Calendar

This Thursday (June 28th) at 10:06AM EDT WMNF presents a one hour debate between 9/11 "Truther" Richard Gage and skeptic Dave Thomas on the theory that the Twin Towers at the World Trade Center were brought down by deliberately placed explosives on 9/11/01.
They allow comments!
HINT-HINT
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Old 28th June 2012, 05:20 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by DaveThomasNMSR View Post
Ideas? Suggestions? Where did Bill Smith go?


Here's mine from a thread a couple of weeks ago:


Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Originally Posted by tntruther View Post
I'd like people from this forum to offer scientific questions for Richard Gage that I can present to him in Nashville on July 3rd.


Here's a serious question I'd like to hear him answer, from a thread I started last year:


Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
I notice that none of this is actually related to Gage's work as an architect. It's all pretty much just "raising awareness". Can anyone point to any aspect of Gage's presentations that are directly attributable to Richard Gage's professional work as an architect? I don't believe I've ever seen him do or say anything that wasn't copied from someone else's work.

The "evidence" that Richard Gage presents is, so far as I can tell, taken entirely from other peoples' work. Those other people are not architects or engineers. So I'd like to know what Dickie Gage has actually done.

This question really has two sides*:

1) What new evidence or analysis has Gage produced? Has he pointed out any aspects of the events of 9/11 that support the CD hypothesis, which no one before him ever pointed out?

2) Has he ever specifically refuted any evidence or analysis from earlier, untrained people? That is, has he ever said to a layman, "Sure, you might think that Feature X was important, but based on my experience, I can tell you that it's not a feature that could distinguish a CD from a fire-induced collapse"?

As it stands now, no one has ever been able to point out any new work Gage has done that directly relates to the science or engineering of the collapses. This leads us to the unlikely situation that untrained laypeople did two amazing things: 1) They spotted all the relevant evidence, and conducted all the relevant analyses, so that there was nothing new for Gage to do; and 2) In doing the above, they made no mistakes at all; they went down no blind alleys, they found no red herrings, they made no calculation errors.

If that was possible, then why do we need A&E9/11 at all? If laypeople can do all the needed work, flawlessly, then why should the endorsement of A&E9/11 carry any weight?




*It's interesting to note that, in the case of the NIST reports, we can say "Yes" to both these questions.
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Old 28th June 2012, 06:19 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by DaveThomasNMSR View Post
They allow comments!
HINT-HINT
From the comments:

Quote:
The bottom 2/3s of WTC 1&2 were undamaged and it is inconceivable that the steel beams would not have put up enough resistance to slow the collapse or cause the toppling over of the top 1/3, as opposed to the demolition-style near-perfect collapse that occurred in less than 15 seconds, right before everyone's eyes.
[Obligatory Princess Bride reference.]
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Old 28th June 2012, 06:27 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Tony Szamboti View Post
And then there are serious besmirchers who use psuedonyms and post nonsense on forums trying to defend a clearly discredited theory for how the WTC buildings collapsed.
My name is Steve Donovan.

You people are idiots.

Happy?


As to the OP - what do you hope to gain by doing this, Dave? Clearly the crazy ship has sailed and is now meandering the waters of loneliness. Let him be. He's a complete and total idiot, devoid of any compassion. He's a snake oil salesman and doesn't deserve to get the time of day, much less an audience with someone with their head screwed on straight. (That'd be you)

Why bother?

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Old 28th June 2012, 06:46 AM   #22
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Early motion...

WTC7...



What caused early motion at the very lastest around the 160s mark, ~15s before descent of the East penthouse ?


WTC1...



What caused early motion >9s prior to release ? (from frame ~850)
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Old 28th June 2012, 06:50 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Tony Szamboti View Post
And then there are serious besmirchers who use psuedonyms and post nonsense on forums trying to defend a clearly discredited theory for how the WTC buildings collapsed.
True, but then you started using your real name.

Dave
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Old 28th June 2012, 06:52 AM   #24
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Quote:
What caused early motion >9s prior to release ? (from frame ~850)

I know I'm going to get the "incorrect" response, but what the hell. Why not....

The exterior of the building reacting to the interior collapsing?
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Old 28th June 2012, 06:53 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
I know I'm going to get the "incorrect" response, but what the hell. Why not....
Because it's a couple of questions for your mate Gage

If Gage thinks explosion-leading immediately to-descent...what was causing the buildings to move ?

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Old 28th June 2012, 06:57 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by femr2 View Post
If Gage thinks explosion-leading immediately to-descent...what was causing the buildings to move ?
Thermite, weakening the main structural members prior to the initiation of collapse by the kicker charges used to move those structural members out of the way to allow the building to fall. The redistribution of load caused barely perceptible movements of the structure.

I wonder if he's clever enough to come up with that one.

Dave
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Old 28th June 2012, 07:01 AM   #27
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Have I got the time wrong? I'm listening to it now, not a mention about any debate..

Edit: Disregard, it's starting
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Old 28th June 2012, 07:03 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post

I wonder if he's clever enough to come up with that one.

Dave
He reads this forum fairly regularly. We are after all his only opposition (no one else is paying any attention).

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Old 28th June 2012, 07:37 AM   #29
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Listening now.

It's clear the moderator is not buying it. Gage is coming off like presenting a well rehearsed sales speech.

ETA: Dave just asked my question about no AIA members showing up at their own house. Gage panics.

Nice job Dave, I thought he was going to trip over his tongue trying to spin his response.

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Old 28th June 2012, 07:39 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by femr2 View Post
Because it's a couple of questions for your mate Gage
If Gage thinks explosion-leading immediately to-descent...what was causing the buildings to move ?
Ah ha....
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Old 28th June 2012, 08:00 AM   #31
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Can't believe he made those personal attack against Dave and his affiliations. What a cock. I emailed a question, but it never got asked

Quote:
I have a question for Gage. If as you claim fire cannot cause a 'symmetrical' collapse, how do you find it logical that the uneven and uncontrollable burning of an incendiary could produce a 'symmetrical free-fall' collapse?
Would love to have heard him try and answer that.
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Old 28th June 2012, 08:14 AM   #32
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While you are fact checking Dave, you might like to reveal where the NIST published an observation that the transit placed on WTC7 actually showed the building to be leaning?

You did say you were only interested in the truth, or did you actually mean your goal was to misinform in order to support your chosen belief?

MM
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Old 28th June 2012, 08:20 AM   #33
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Someone's projecting again....
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Old 28th June 2012, 08:28 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
My name is Steve Donovan.

You people are idiots.

Happy?


As to the OP - what do you hope to gain by doing this, Dave? Clearly the crazy ship has sailed and is now meandering the waters of loneliness. Let him be. He's a complete and total idiot, devoid of any compassion. He's a snake oil salesman and doesn't deserve to get the time of day, much less an audience with someone with their head screwed on straight. (That'd be you)

Why bother?
I wouldn't worry too much about Tony pretending he thinks the name you use is so important. He'd make up anything to try and sound more convincing....he does that already and it doesn't work.

Besides, we all know the way to get at you is through Pearl. And if we know it, the NWO must know it.
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Old 28th June 2012, 08:35 AM   #35
DaveThomasNMSR
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Originally Posted by Miragememories View Post
While you are fact checking Dave, you might like to reveal where the NIST published an observation that the transit placed on WTC7 actually showed the building to be leaning?

You did say you were only interested in the truth, or did you actually mean your goal was to misinform in order to support your chosen belief?

MM
So, if NIST doesn't publish something, it isn't true? First I've heard that. Who said NIST published it, anyway? I was referring to firemen, on the scene:

Quote:
Deputy Chief Peter Hayden
Division 1 - 33 years

...also we were pretty sure that 7 World Trade Center would collapse. Early on, we saw a bulge in the southwest corner between floors 10 and 13, and we had put a transit on that and we were pretty sure she was going to collapse. You actually could see there was a visible bulge, it ran up about three floors. It came down about 5 o’clock in the afternoon, but by about 2 o’clock in the afternoon we realized this thing was going to collapse.

Firehouse: Was there heavy fire in there right away?
Hayden: No, not right away, and that’s probably why it stood for so long because it took a while for that fire to develop. It was a heavy body of fire in there and then we didn’t make any attempt to fight it. That was just one of those wars we were just going to lose. We were concerned about the collapse of a 47-story building there. We were worried about additional collapse there of what was remaining standing of the towers and the Marriott, so we started pulling the people back after a couple of hours of surface removal and searches along the surface of the debris. We started to pull guys back because we were concerned for their safety.
http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/9...gz/hayden.html
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Old 28th June 2012, 08:47 AM   #36
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Archive is up

Here's the Link.

Cheers, Dave
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Old 28th June 2012, 08:49 AM   #37
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Dave:
For me the best part was when you called him on his accusing Ace Elevator of being "in on it".

He really does sound desperate when he speculates on others motives for not believing what he preaches.
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Old 28th June 2012, 09:54 AM   #38
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I don't understand how anyone with an open mind could listen to Gage and not realize that he was intentionally misleading on his answers -- a direct question to him is like a crucifx to a vampire.
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Old 28th June 2012, 11:05 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by DaveThomasNMSR View Post
Here's the Link.

Cheers, Dave
Sweet! Will listen today for sure. Like the opening music too
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Old 28th June 2012, 01:20 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by alienentity View Post
Sweet! Will listen today for sure. Like the opening music too
Gage's first six minutes, no facts just innuendo, political posturing and a pitch for another meeting.
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