Merged Electric Sun Theory (Split from: CME's, active regions and high energy flares)

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Behold, you never read my discussion with PS when I said it was probably MORE appropriate to simply say NO lines reach X to begin with, the PRESSURE keeps them from actually crossing.

Oh I've read it and I've also read this...


NOTHING BEGINS OR ENDS THERE! Your dishonesty is showing. Just as many LINES EXIT there as ENTER there, but none of them BEGIN there! OMG. Gauss's law is satisfied EVERYWHERE, not JUST IN THE NULL. A B line HAS NO SOURCE OR SINK, so it can't "begin" or "end" anywhere. They simply pass through the NULL with a zero field strength.

So which is it "NO lines reach X to begin with..." or "Just as many LINES EXIT there as ENTER there..." and "They simply pass through the NULL with a zero field strength"?

Again this exemplifies your typically dishonest approach to the discussion as you will not only attempt to ascribe your own useless and deliberately flawed positions to others but will take directly conflicting positions yourself simply to perpetuate your own personal distain for the accurately descriptive phrase magnetic reconnection. Waste as much time as you like, contradict yourself as much as you like, ascribe to others whatever fallacious position you want as much as you like, you won't change the phrase magnetic reconnection from being accurately descriptive of the specific type of field reconfiguration it refers to. In the end your problem is simply and entirely one of language, though English and not mathematics in this case. So waste as much time on it as you want, use whatever dishonest tactic that suits your fancy at that time, even delude yourself into thinking such tactics are not obvious and futile, but just don't hold your breath.
 
Oh I've read it and I've also read this...




So which is it "NO lines reach X to begin with..." or "Just as many LINES EXIT there as ENTER there..." and "They simply pass through the NULL with a zero field strength"?

Again this exemplifies your typically dishonest approach to the discussion as you will not only attempt to ascribe your own useless and deliberately flawed positions to others but will take directly conflicting positions yourself simply to perpetuate your own personal distain for the accurately descriptive phrase magnetic reconnection.

IMO it's "dishonest" of you to turn a scientific discussion into a PERSONAL attack. I've been VERY upfront about the fact that I personally believe that *CLINGER'S* (not my) claim that all lines CROSS in the middle is BS. I think it's MORE LIKELY NONE of the B lines actually get there, or "cross" there. It's a NULL *BECAUSE* no lines go through it. The process is most likely an INTERFERENCE issue that begins along the outer ring "brighter ring", and few and few loops go through any area as we move closer the X. By the time we get to X, NOTHING is crossing!

You folks are the ones *INSISTING* that every freshman physics textbook on the planet is *WRONG*, not me. How HONEST is that behavior considering the fact that NONE of you have produced a PUBLISHED, PEER REVIEWED WORK to support any of your *MANY* fallacious claims?

From a *PURELY MATHEMATICAL* perspective, yes, you might *THINK* of a bunch of lines crossing at ZERO, but even in basic EM theory, they make it clear the NO B LINES CROSS! Clinger has made ONE FRESHMAN MISTAKE AFTER ANOTHER AFTER ANOTHER.
 
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Clinger demonstrated that one can construct a scenario where B lines do begin and end. He then explained that the statement about B lines that you are fixated on is usually true and provides a general understanding of the difference between B and E lines, but is not true in every configuration -- as his demonstration clearly shows.

His example "clearly shows' nothing of the sort PS. It clearly shows that NOTHING could ever begin at Origin the big fact NOTHING! He only demonstrated that *EVEN AT A NULL*, Gauss's laws are satisfied, not only at points *WITH* energy, but at points *WITHOUT* any energy too. So what? Oy Vey.

You people are arguing EXACTLY like creationists. You personally handwaved some pretty pictures at me that you *STILL* don't understand and claim it's an example of 'reconnection'. I carefully explained to you that you misread the website where you found those images. The website only claims that those magnetic lines BEND AND TWIST. It said *ABSOLUTELY* nothing about 'reconnecting B lines' as you claimed.

Clinger has been handwaving nothing but mathematical NONSENSE at me based on a SERIES of freshman *THEORETICAL* mistakes about BASIC EM theory. Nothing could ever 'begin' at Origin the NOTHING. His fancy looking equations amount to 0+0=0 in the absence of plasma.

None of your arguments have been "peer reviewed". None of them have ever been "published' anywhere before *THIS* conversation. The whole conversation is surreal. I hand you more than a dozen published papers that all claim that B lines do not begin, end, have sources or sinks. You have provided NOTHING to demonstrate otherwise, yet you continue to attack the individual on a daily basis. Yep, it's *EXACTLY* like arguing with FUNDY CREATIONISTS. Your personal "faith based" belief systems are "threatened' so you personally go all postal on the individual. Yep, haters are all alike.
 
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Once again, as I never claimed it was "just in the NULL", the "handwaving" and obviously futile strawman are still simply just yours (maybe you should have had a different entrée as the dinner doesn't seem to have helped you much).

Though as noted by Tim Thompson before, you agree, and explicitly state above, that "Guass's law is satisfied in the NULL".

So what? Gauss's law is satisfied *EVERYWHERE*, not ONLY in NULLS! What a LAME argument!
 
You've still got a very long way to go Michael Mozina before you can demonstrate you have the ability to just understand the topics you want to discuss. Attempting to substitute your own "monopolistic world" and obviously futile strawman for the positions of others in such a discussion not only demonstrates your lack of understanding but also exemplifies your dishonest approach to such a discussion.

Excuse me? It's *DISHONEST AS HELL* of you to try to claim that B lines can "begin" in the absence of a monopole. It is dishonest to argue with nothing more than HANDWAVES rather than published works. It's DISHONEST to claim that it's "super-significant' that Gauss's laws are satisfied in ONE point when they are in fact satisfied *EVERYWHERE*! This whole conversation is dishonest because your side has presented no science. It simply attacks the individual repetitiously and loudly and tosses in PERSONAL HANDWAVES by the bucket load. Those are purely dishonest debate tactics from start to end. Do not even *THINK* about lecturing me about "honesty".
 
Originally Posted by Perpetual Student
Clinger demonstrated that one can construct a scenario where B lines do begin and end. He then explained that the statement about B lines that you are fixated on is usually true and provides a general understanding of the difference between B and E lines, but is not true in every configuration -- as his demonstration clearly shows.

Originally Posted by Michael Mozina
His example "clearly shows' nothing of the sort PS. It clearly shows that NOTHING could ever begin at Origin the big fact NOTHING! He only demonstrated that *EVEN AT A NULL*, Gauss's laws are satisfied, not only at points *WITH* energy, but at points *WITHOUT* any energy too. So what? Oy Vey.
The above ranting response to my post conveniently left out my concluding comment, shown below:
Whether you like it or not, the neutral point in his demonstration is a place where B lines begin and end. Posting the same links over and over and repeatedly making the same statements (like the one above) over and over will not change that. His demonstration is consistent with Gauss's law and is a clear counterexample to your B line doctrine. If you want to make a meaningful counter-argument then do so with a mathematical demonstration proving your point. If you can't do that, accept his conclusion and move on. That's how science is done!
So, the way to refute Clinger's demonstration is to produce one of your own with an accompanying mathematical analysis or show where Clinger's mathematics is wrong. Another rant will simply provide further evidence that you don't have a clue about this subject. So, let's have it -- a science based response.
 
The above ranting response to my post conveniently left out my concluding comment, shown below:

So, the way to refute Clinger's demonstration is to produce one of your own with an accompanying mathematical analysis or show where Clinger's mathematics is wrong. Another rant will simply provide further evidence that you don't have a clue about this subject. So, let's have it -- a science based response.

I already gave you a "science" based response. You FALLACIOUSLY believe that all errors/truths are MATHEMATICAL in nature. That's ridiculous. In this case his error isn't MATHEMATICAL at all. It's CONCEPTUAL in nature. CONCEPTUALLY, B lines *DO NOT* begin, end, have a source or a sink. That is a CONCEPTUAL understanding of how our universe functions that *MUST* be applied to all discussions related to particle and plasma physics.

So long as you VIOLATE that basic CONCEPTUAL understanding of the PHYSICAL NATURE of B lines, what else can I say? You're in pure denial of how THIS PHYSICAL UNIVERSE OPERATES at a FUNDAMENTAL level, rather than the function of some mythical monopole universe. At a fundamental level, B lines *DO NOT* begin, end, have a source or a sink. Only E fields can do that. All B lines are a result of the MOVEMENT OF CURRENT, and they from as continuous loops as that A diagram I posted earlier demonstrates.

Gauss's laws isn't *ONLY* preserved in Origin the Dud, it's preserved *EVERYWHERE IN THE EXPERIMENT* PS! Origin isn't unique. Get off your knees already.
 
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Magnetic Reconnection In Vacuo V

Mozina asked for a "peer reviewed" publication to support the claim that magnetic reconnection takes place in a vacuum. In response, on 1 December 2011 at 2:58 PM (in whatever timezone the JREF clock ticks), I posted the following ...

Do a search on books.google.com on "vacuum reconnection" and you will find a paper by Priest, a paper by Priest and Schrijver (here section 5 even has software to do your own vacuum reconnection) and there is a paper by Pritchett, where he specifically lets the density go to zero in his modelling. I think that were the first three links (did this yesterday evening) and there I stopped.

The simple fact that Somov's currents are just two wires carrying an electric current (otherwise you cannot maintain a vacuum) seems to be lost on MM.

And no, vacuum reconnection does not mean that the vacuum itself is reconnecting!
Is there a PARTICULAR ONE that tickles your fancy that I can take a look at?
Yes, this paper: Aspects of Three-Dimensional Magnetic Reconnection - (Invited Review); Priest & Schrijver, Solar Physics 190(1/2): 1-24, December 1999.
Abstract: In this review paper we discuss several aspects of magnetic reconnection theory, focusing on the field-line motions that are associated with reconnection. A new exact solution of the nonlinear MHD equations for reconnective annihilation is presented which represents a two-fold generalization of the previous solutions. Magnetic reconnection at null points by several mechanisms is summarized, including spine reconnection, fan reconnection and separator reconnection, where it is pointed out that two common features of separator reconnection are the rapid flipping of magnetic field lines and the collapse of the separator to a current sheet. In addition, a formula for the rate of reconnection between two flux tubes is derived. The magnetic field of the corona is highly complex, since the magnetic carpet consists of a multitude of sources in the photosphere. Progress in understanding this complexity may, however, be made by constructing the skeleton of the field and developing a theory for the local and global bifurcations between the different topologies. The eruption of flux from the Sun may even sometimes be due to a change of topology caused by emerging flux break-out. A CD-ROM attached to this paper presents the results of a toy model of vacuum reconnection, which suggests that rapid flipping of field lines in fan and separator reconnection is an essential ingredient also in real non-vacuum conditions. In addition, it gives an example of binary reconnection between a pair of unbalanced sources as they move around, which may contribute significantly to coronal heating. Finally, we present examples in TRACE movies of geometrical changes of the coronal magnetic field that are a likely result of large-scale magnetic reconnection.

You can download the PDF from the Solar Physics website without logging in (it worked for me). See section 5, "Toy Model for Vacuum Reconnection" (pages 17-19).

Also recall the abstract already referenced by Reality Check: Magnetic reconnection on the sun by E.R. Priest, from the book "Basic Plasma Processes on the Sun", Kluwer 1990, pages 271-288 (abstract truncated on ADS webpage - see paper for full abstract). Here we find the beginning of the 2nd paragraph of the introduction: In a vacuum, reconnection is a trivial process, but, in a plasma atmosphere such as the Sun's, normally the plasma is attached very effectively to the magnetic field. It is only where the magnetic gradients are, say, a million times stronger than normal that the magnetic field can slip through the plasma and reconnect (Figure 1). There are three important effects of such a process. Firstly, the global topology of the magnetic field may be changed since the connectivity of the field lines may be altered. For example, initially in Figure 1 the point A is joined to point B and finally it is connected to point C. This may affect heat and the flow of particles which tend to travel along field lines. Secondly, inflowing stored magnetic energy is converted into heat, bulk kinetic energy and fast particle energy. Thirdly, reconnection creates large electric currents, electric fields, shock waves, filamentation, each of which may be involved in the acceleration of charged particles."

In light of Priest's hilighted comment, remember my own comments in October:

See my post Magnetic Reconnection In Vacuo where I outline the clear evidence that magnetic field lines, and not field aligned currents, topologically reconnect to change the energy state of the Magnetic field. To reinforce my demonstration, I now also suggest Magnets in Motion, where you can access animated gif images of the magnetic field lines reconnecting as magnets move. The magnetic fields are derived from solutions of Maxwell's equations. The author of the page, Rick Hoadley, has a Master's Degree in Electrical Engineering from Cornell University, so it is fair to assert that he is an authority on electricity and magnetism.

There is no arguing with the physics, that this definitely represents the breaking & reconnecting of magnetic field lines, no current of any kind involved. This is not found in textbooks & published papers for the simple reason that is is both obvious & trivial. Contrary to the ill-informed opinion of some, it is actually not true that literally everything is found within the covers of a book or on the pages of a scholarly paper. These are the same people who think that every question has an answer in the "solutions manual", if you can find it; thinking not required, just look it all up. It is just one more example of appeal too authority rather than an independent examination of the actual physics involved.


There simply is no justification for the claim that the reconnection of magnetic field lines cannot happen in a vacuum.


That certainly satisfies the request. At this time I will add a second exhibit from the relevant literature to support the reality of magnetic reconnection in a vacuum. In this case my source is the textbook Fundamentals of Plasma Physics by Paul M. Bellan; Cambridge University Press, 2006. Chapter 12 is entitled "Magnetic reconnection"; see section 12.7, "Assignments", page 432, problem number 1. Emphasis is in the original.

Bellan said:
Sweet-Parker type reconnection (Sweet 1958, Parker 1957, Trintchouk, Yamada, Ji, Kulsrud and Carter 2003). Consider the two identical flux conserving current loops shown in Fig. 12.6(a). Because the system is axisymmetric, the magnetic field can be expressed as
[latex]
[/latex]
where psi is the poloidal flux.
{ ... }
(b) Define private flux to be a poloidal flux surface that links only one of the current loops (examples are the flux surfaces labeled 1 and 2 in Fig. 12.6(a)). Define public flux to be a flux surface that links both current loops (examples are flux surfaces 3, 4, 5 in Fig. 12.6(a)). Define the X-point to be the location in the z=0 plane where there is a field null as shown in Fig. 12.6(a); let r0 be the radius of the X-point. Show by sketching that as the two current loops approach each other in vacuum, a private flux surface above the midplane will merge with a private flux surface below to form a public flux surface.


This is literally a textbook exercise for the student in vacuum magnetic reconnection. It is in essence a textbook version of the very same X-point reconnection found in Clinger's proof that Mozina has so loudly (but so wrongly) condemned. I realize it is hard to follow without seeing figure 12.6(a), but that really is not the point (go find the book if you like, and as they say in popular English, "knock yourself out").

The real point is this: We have now at our disposal the original and valid proof from Clinger, a peer-reviewed review paper from Priest & Schrijver, and a textbook exercise for the student, all of which assert the validity of the reconnection of magnetic field lines of force in a vacuum. Lest anyone be tempted to take these efforts too lightly, I would like to point out who we are dealing with here. W.D. Clinger is an Associate Professor in the College of Computer and Information Science at Northeastern University; his PhD (in computer science I presume) was earned at M.I.T. Carolus "Karel" Schrijver earned his PhD from the University of Utrecht, Netherlands in 1986 (thesis title "Stellar Magnetic Activity: Complementing Conclusions based on Solar and Stellar Observations"). He is currently the Principal Investigator for the Atmospheric imaging Assembly (AIA) on the Solar Dynamics Observatory. Eric Priest received his PhD from the University of Leeds in 1969 under T.G. Cowling, thesis title "Magnetohydrodynamic Neutral Point Theory". He was James Gregory Professor of Mathematics at St. Andrews University in Scotland, but retired in 2010 and is now Professor Emeritus. He was made a Fellow of the Royal Society and received the Hale Prize from the American Astronomical Society in 2002; received the Gold Medal of the Royal Astronomical Society and the Payne-Gaposchkin Medal & Prize of the Institute of Physics in 2009. And note that in my comments above I recommend animations of vacuum magnetic reconnection that are made by Rick Hoadley, who has a Master's Degree in Electrical Engineering from Cornell University. Finally, for what it's worth, I have B.S. & M.S. degrees in physics from California State University at Los Angeles and am retired from a 28 year career in astronomy & astrophysics. The list of qualifications should not be construed as an assertion that none of these people are capable of being wrong; I have yet to meet the infallible mortal. However, it should be construed as an assertion that everyone in the list has, shall we say, "been around the block" once or twice in the science & technology fields. I think it fair to assert that they are, collectively & individually unlikely to make serious mistakes when it comes to serious efforts involving the basic fundamentals of their respective fields of specialty, or in fields they make a serious effort to study.

As for Mozina ...
Discussing a poster's credentials is usually off-topic, but Michael Mozina is arguing from his own personal authority. Because Michael Mozina has chosen to cite his credentials as evidence for his personal authority, and because that alleged authority is the foundation of his argument, we cannot discuss his argument without examining his credentials.
See the entire post for the full discussion.

Now, in response to my original post quoted above, an interesting conversation ensues which it is worth reviewing here. All of the highlighting has been added by me.

The way in which the field lines reconnect by changing from being open to closed and back to open can be seen clearly.
Um, it would appear (without having reviewed the actual software and code yet) that in the "toy model" that they are talking about, the "way it works" is by breaking the laws of physics. :) There are no "open" magnetic lines. They may close at infinity, but they always form closed loops.


So once more you show your ignorance of mainstream plasmaphysical terminology. Well, who is surprised?
After reading soooooooooooooooo many books and papers you still do not know about the terminology of open and closed field lines?
Apparently, you have not read as much or as well as you claim.


I give up for now. Without seeing the Movie and without reviewing the code that appears to violate the laws of physics, I really have no idea how their "magic" works. All I can see so far is that they are INTENT on claiming that B field lines SWITCH from being closed, to "open". AFAIK, that's bogus nonsense. Unless they have a monopole up their sleeve, or some "magic monopole code" in that "toy" software, it's never going to happen. All magnetic lines form as closed directional loops.


So once more you show your ignorance of mainstream plasmaphysical terminology. Well, who is surprised?
After reading soooooooooooooooo many books and papers you still do not know about the terminology of open and closed field lines?
Apparently, you have not read as much or as well as you claim.
Oh, I know the terminology well enough. Apparently I don't believe the claim, nor do I believe everything I read.


Oh, I know the terminology well enough. Apparently I don't believe the claim, nor do I believe everything I read.
Apparently you don't know it, othewise you would not have made the silly comment.

Just for the general public, closed field lines are lines that (in this case) start at the Sun and return to the Sun. Open field lines are lines that start at the Sun but do not return. This does not mean that the end of open field lines is just flapping somewhere in the solar wind, but it will be connected somewhere far away to some other magnetic object.


Apparently you don't know it, othewise you would not have made the silly comment.

Just for the general public, closed field lines are lines that (in this case) start at the Sun and return to the Sun. Open field lines are lines that start at the Sun but do not return. This does not mean that the end of open field lines is just flapping somewhere in the solar wind, but it will be connected somewhere far away to some other magnetic object.
IMO its silly to be talking about B LINES being open. It's just more "confusion factor" IMO.


IMO its silly to be talking about B LINES being open. It's just more "confusion factor" IMO.
Yes, and it is also strange to give electron holes negative mass in semi conductors and still it's done.

It is strange to say the electron has spin, when it is not rotating.

And so one can go on. Sometimes professional jargon is strange to the uninitiated.

Nobody is confused about the open/closed usage, when it is explained how it is used and why. But you are the exception to the rule, now does that not make you feel special?


Yes, and it is also strange to give electron holes negative mass in semi conductors and still it's done.

It is strange to say the electron has spin, when it is not rotating.

And so one can go on. Sometimes professional jargon is strange to the uninitiated.

Nobody is confused about the open/closed usage, when it is explained how it is used and why. But you are the exception to the rule, now does that not make you feel special?
I'm not personally confused. It's an unnecessarily confusing term that is mostly related to the mainstream's aversion to any sort of CIRCUIT/CURRENT flow orientation to events in space. You dumb everything down to the B orientation even though it's the electric horse that does all the actual work, including "opening" those lines of (PLASMA) force.


At the beginning of this conversation, Mozina assumes that Priest & Schrijver are allowing magnetic field lines to simply "flap in the breeze" (the "open" lines), correctly pointing out that this violates the laws of physics. When chastised by Tusenfem for his misunderstanding, he insists that he "knows the terminology quite well" and ends up by saying that he is "not personally confused". This does raise the obvious question. If he knows the terminology so well, and if he is not personally confused, then why did he make that mistake in the first place? This is just one small example in a sea of opportunities that the unwary have available too them for misunderstanding of technical writing. Remember, specialist journal research papers (the Priest & Schrijver paper appeared in Solar Physics are not written for general readers; they are written by specialists with the intention of communicating with other specialists, and are commonly packed with technical jargon, and common words used in the fashion of jargon peculiar to that specialty. So when Mozina complains that the use of "open lines" is just a "confusion factor", what's the real point? It's not at all confusing to the intended audience, all of whom know exactly & at once what the words "open lines" mean. Anyone who cannot follow the jargon has no business making assertions about the meaning of the papers. This certainly includes Mozina but it also includes well educated scientists from some unrelated discipline; there is no reason to assume that someone with a PhD in pure mathematics, for instance, will immediately understand all of the jargon in a plasma physics paper, without making an effort to learn that jargon.

Later, Mozina posts evidence that he has actually read the paper.

You're right Tim, I could download the paper for free. Unfortunately, only the CD must contain the "toy reconnection" code that they are talking about. It's also extremely difficult to know exactly what they mean by the term "vacuum", or a "Toy Model" for that matter. The "toy model" in the paper includes nothing more than a couple of diagrams.
5. Toy Model for Vacuum Reconnection
We have constructed a simple toy model for vacuum reconnection driven by the motion of photospheric sources and have presented the results in the accompanying CD-ROM.


:confused: As far as I can tell, they are still talking about PLASMA physics, in this case a LOW DENSITY plasma like the corona. :confused:

I guess I need to see the code and the CD.


Although previously "not personally confused" by the jargon (although this appears to be a self-serving falsehood given the conversation reproduced above), now Mozina admits to being confused by what seems to me fairly ordinary English.

Priest & Schrijver said:
We have constructed a simple toy model for vacuum reconnection driven by the motion of photospheric sources and have presented the results in the accompanying CD-ROM. We calculate the potential magnetic field due to two, three or four sources in the solar surface and then extend it to a many-source case in which the surrounding fields limit the motion to much smaller amplitudes than in the few-source case. The sources are slowly moved around and we assume that the field remains potential. Although this is an oversimplified model, the resulting motion of the field lines is instructive and it is a useful preliminary for a resistive MHD numerical model that we are planning to undertake.


I don't see why Mozina cannot figure this out. The reconnection in a vacuum is driven by the motions of photospheric sources, meaning that the motions of the sources for the vacuum magnetic reconnection are the same as one sees for photospheric sources. It seems obvious enough to me.


I give up for now.

Got a copy of his computer code by any chance? That's likely to be the EASIEST way to falsify the concept.


The computer code no, but the CD yes. One can download a 99.2 MByte zip archive that expands into a 105 MByte folder (on my Mac) from the solar physics webpage for the paper: http://www.springerlink.com/content/l702082772n234t2/fulltext.html (which does not show the full text). Select the "Electronic Supplementary Material" link. There are two movies in the folder "epriest"; "movingloops.mov" is a movie of real solar coronal loops, while "potentialfields.mov" is the vacuum reconnection movie. Clinger's is far better looking, but the moving sources in the Priest & Schrijver movie makes it computationally more complicated.

The Bottom Line:
The bottom line at the moment is that we have a serious collection of serious scientists seriously expounding on the reconnection of the lines of force of magnetic fields in a vacuum, with no plasma involved. It is not enough to insist they must all be wrong simply because one does not like the idea of magnetic reconnection. Rather, it is necessary to be just as serious in opposition as the proponents are serious. I assert, for the record, that this is a criterion that Mozina has failed to meet.
 
Magnetic field lines end at null points VII

Excuse me? It's *DISHONEST AS HELL* of you to try to claim that B lines can "begin" in the absence of a monopole. It is dishonest to argue with nothing more than HANDWAVES rather than published works. It's DISHONEST to claim that it's "super-significant' that Gauss's laws are satisfied in ONE point when they are in fact satisfied *EVERYWHERE*! This whole conversation is dishonest because your side has presented no science. It simply attacks the individual repetitiously and loudly and tosses in PERSONAL HANDWAVES by the bucket load. Those are purely dishonest debate tactics from start to end. Do not even *THINK* about lecturing me about "honesty".


Consider this ...

Preface: What is a "Field Line"?

Magnetic field lines are mathematical devices for describing and analyzing magnetic fields. They are not physically real objects. I have pointed this out before.

From 26 January 2010
I want to take another crack at the concept of field lines. One of the complaints leveled at the idea of magnetic reconnection is that the field lines are not physically real, which I think is an irrelevant point. So it does not hurt to consider for a moment exactly what a "field line" is supposed to be in some detail.

What is a "field line"?

"In electric and magnetic phenomena, the magnitude and direction of the resultant force at any point is the main subject of investigation. Suppose that the direction of the force at any point is known, then, if we draw a line so that in every part of its course it coincides with the direction of the force at that point, this line may be called a line of force, since it indicates the direction of the force in every part of its course.
By drawing a sufficient number of lines of force, we may indicate the direction of the force in every part of the space in which it acts.
Thus if we strew iron filings on paper near a magnet, each filing will be magnetized by induction, and the consecutive filings will unite by their opposite poles, so as to form fibres, and those fibres will indicate the direction of the lines of force. The beautiful illustration of the presence of magnetic force afforded by this experiment, naturally tends to make us think of the lines of force as something real, and as indicating something more than the mere resultant of two forces, whose seat of action is at a distance, and which do not exist there at all until a magnet is placed in that part of the field. We are dissatisfied with the explanation founded on the hypothesis of attractive and repellant forces directed towards the magnetic poles, even though we may have satisfied ourselves that the phenomenon is in strict accordance with that hypothesis, and we cannot help thinking that in every place where we find these lines of force, some physical state or action must exist in sufficient energy to produce the actual phenomena."

From the paper "On Physical Lines of Force" by James Clerk Maxwell, originally published in The Philosophical Magazine, vol. XXI (1861)
See The Scientific Papers of James Clark Maxwell, volume I; Dover publications, 2003, pages 451-452 (a republication of the 1965 Dover reprint of the original, published in 1890 by Cambridge University Press). Emphasis in the quote is from the original.
The concept for "lines of magnetic force" comes from Michael Faraday and was adopted by Maxwell (see On Faraday's Lines of Force; page 155 in the same volume I of Maxwell's collected papers; read Dec 10, 1855 and Feb 11, 1856). He later generalized the concept and used it to literally invent the theory of electromagnetic fields, and really the general topic of field theory (see A Dynamical Theory of the Electromagnetic Field; page 526 in the same volume I of Maxwell's collected papers; read Dec 8, 1864; and see the subsection On Lines of Magnetic Force, page 551 and On Magnetic Equipotential Surfaces, page 553). In the passage above, where Maxwell begins "We are dissatisfied ...", he is expressing his dissatisfaction with the notion of "action at a distance" (an idea Newton did not like either), and his belief that some "physical state or action" must permeate the space around the magnet. That "physical state or action" of 1861 became Maxwell's electromagnetic field of 1864.


Just in case Maxwell is not good enough, here is another, more recent definition for a field line:

"If we join end-to-end infinitesimal vectors representing E, we get a curve in space - called a line of force - that is everywhere normal to the equipotential surfaces. The vector E is everywhere tangent to a line of forces"
From Electromagnetic Fields and Waves, Lorrain & Corson, W.H. Freeman & Co., 1970 (2nd edition), page 46 [this was my undergrad textbook]. This definition for an electric field line works just fine for a magnetic field, just replace E with B and you have the definition for a magnetic field line; the definition is general, so just substitute your favorite letter for your favorite field and you've got it.

By now it should be obvious that the field line cannot exist unless the vector that defines the field line exists. This is a crucial point as we shall see.


I repeat: the field line cannot exist unless the vector that defines the field line exists. This is a logically necessary consequence of the definition of a field line of force. The definitions provided by Maxwell himself, or by Lorrain & Corson, are equivalent and both absolutely require that the field line cannot exist where the vector does not exist. At a null point the vector does not exist, and therefore the field line of force cannot exist. This should all be made obvious by the question asked by The Man: In what direction do your field lines "pass through the NULL with a zero field strength?" Vectors have both magnitude and direction. So how does one unambiguously determine the direction for a vector of zero magnitude?


Please explain what is is about an appeal directly to the definition of a "line of force", as given by Maxwell himself, as well as the equivalent from Lorrain & Corson, which qualifies in your mind as being both "DISHONEST AS HELL" and "HANDWAVES".
 
It's not even clear to me what they mean by the term "vacuum", since they seem to use it interchangeably with the term "corona" as well. They also describe "flux tubes" which clearly require "plasma". Without the source code, there's no way to see how the magic was done.
 
Please explain what is is about an appeal directly to the definition of a "line of force", as given by Maxwell himself, as well as the equivalent from Lorrain & Corson, which qualifies in your mind as being both "DISHONEST AS HELL" and "HANDWAVES".

What LINES OF FORCE? You don't even have any evidence that any actual *LINES OF FORCE* go through X in the first place!
 
I already gave you a "science" based response. You FALLACIOUSLY believe that all errors/truths are MATHEMATICAL in nature. That's ridiculous. In this case his error isn't MATHEMATICAL at all. It's CONCEPTUAL in nature. CONCEPTUALLY, B lines *DO NOT* begin, end, have a source or a sink. That is a CONCEPTUAL understanding of how our universe functions that *MUST* be applied to all discussions related to particle and plasma physics.

So long as you VIOLATE that basic CONCEPTUAL understanding of the PHYSICAL NATURE of B lines, what else can I say? You're in pure denial of how THIS PHYSICAL UNIVERSE OPERATES at a FUNDAMENTAL level, rather than the function of some mythical monopole universe. At a fundamental level, B lines *DO NOT* begin, end, have a source or a sink. Only E fields can do that. All B lines are a result of the MOVEMENT OF CURRENT, and they from as continuous loops as that A diagram I posted earlier demonstrates.

Gauss's laws isn't *ONLY* preserved in Origin the Dud, it's preserved *EVERYWHERE IN THE EXPERIMENT* PS! Origin isn't unique. Get off your knees already.

The saddest thing of all is that you actually do believe the above is a science based response to Clinger's demonstration.
 
The saddest thing of all is that you actually do believe the above is a science based response to Clinger's demonstration.

No, the saddest part is that you still think Clinger made some fantastic discovery about some UNIQUE point. :( Every point MUST AND DOES satisfy Gauss's law of magnetism, but NO POINT is the "beginning" of any line.
 
The real point is this: We have now at our disposal the original and valid proof from Clinger, a peer-reviewed review paper from Priest & Schrijver, and a textbook exercise for the student, all of which assert the validity of the reconnection of magnetic field lines of force in a vacuum.

Woah! Hold your horses. Round up the SOURCE CODE that was used for us *BEFORE* you make any claims about this "vacuum" they discuss. They switch back and forth between the terms "corona" and 'toy' reconnection. I want to see how this "toy" process works at the level of source code. If the source code is based on MHD theory, Clinger is SOL! He left out the HYDRO.
 
Originally Posted by Bellan, Fundamentals of Plasma Physics, page 432
Sweet-Parker type reconnection (Sweet 1958, Parker 1957, Trintchouk, Yamada, Ji, Kulsrud and Carter 2003). Consider the two identical flux conserving current loops shown in Fig. 12.6(a). Because the system is axisymmetric, the magnetic field can be expressed as
<br />
where psi is the poloidal flux.
{ ... }
(b) Define private flux to be a poloidal flux surface that links only one of the current loops (examples are the flux surfaces labeled 1 and 2 in Fig. 12.6(a)). Define public flux to be a flux surface that links both current loops (examples are flux surfaces 3, 4, 5 in Fig. 12.6(a)). Define the X-point to be the location in the z=0 plane where there is a field null as shown in Fig. 12.6(a); let r0 be the radius of the X-point. Show by sketching that as the two current loops approach each other in vacuum, a private flux surface above the midplane will merge with a private flux surface below to form a public flux surface.

Sorry Tim, that is M*H*D theory. Did you miss those CURRENTS?
 
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No, the saddest part is that you still think Clinger made some fantastic discovery about some UNIQUE point. :( Every point MUST AND DOES satisfy Gauss's law of magnetism, but NO POINT is the "beginning" of any line.

This is really much simpler than you think. Take the real line and eliminate the point (0,0). Now consider the positive real numbers in ascending order. We can say they begin at (0,0) even though that point does not exist in our set. It's just a way of describing what we have. That 's all there is to this -- it's more logic than it is physics.
 
Clinger's is far better looking, but the moving sources in the Priest & Schrijver movie makes it computationally more complicated.

Then the PRIMARY DIFFERENCE is Priest and Schriver must use PLASMA and MHD theory to get that movement, leaving Clinger still swinging in the breeze without a plasma particle to his name.
 
This is really much simpler than you think. Take the real line and eliminate the point (0,0). Now consider the positive real numbers in ascending order. We can say they begin at (0,0) even though that point does not exist in our set. It's just a way of describing what we have. That 's all there is to this -- it's more logic than it is physics.

It's physically WRONG however. Every line created by every pole is continuous, without beginning and without ending. No point is "special" or unique. Every POINT conforms to Gauss's law of magnetism that assures us no B lines begin or end! It really is that simple.

Mathematically speaking, Clinger's example only applies in monopolism. Only if monopoles exist can B lines have "beginnings" and "endings". In our "real" universe, all the loops simply AVOID the actual X point. Nothing "begins" there, and nothing ends there. It's just another ordinary point in spacetime that conforms with Gauss's laws.
 
That's easy...we wait to see what you think, that way, we will know the opposite to be the truth.

It's the only way to be sure.

Without source code, and based on the fact the source points MOVE, I'd have to assume it's based on MHD theory, leaving Clinger stuck in a vacuum without a plasma particle to his name. :)
 
It's physically WRONG however. Every line created by every pole is continuous, without beginning and without ending. No point is "special" or unique. Every POINT conforms to Gauss's law of magnetism that assures us no B lines begin or end! It really is that simple.
Yes, no point is special. The neutral point is simply a point that has no magnetic energy. So, we can say lines end and/or begin there. It has already been shown that this is consistent with ∇⋅ B = 0 -- everywhere -- including the neutral point.

Mathematically speaking, Clinger's example only applies in monopolism. Only if monopoles exist can B lines have "beginnings" and "endings". In our "real" universe, all the loops simply AVOID the actual X point. Nothing "begins" there, and nothing ends there. It's just another ordinary point in spacetime that conforms with Gauss's laws.

You keep saying that again and again but provide no evidence in the form of a mathematically based argument. Show why monopoles are required and how "all the loops simply AVOID the actual X point" with a real scientifically and mathematically based demonstration -- or stop saying it over and over like some religious chant.
 
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Yes, no point is special. The neutral point is simply a point that has no magnetic energy. So, we can say lines end and/or begin there.

NO! You can only say that *NO* (as in zero) lines BEGIN *OR* END there, just as no lines begin or end anywhere else. In fact no lines even necessarily pass through there! That's your *CONCEPTUAL* problem in a nutshell.
 
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W.D. Clinger is an Associate Professor in the College of Computer and Information Science at Northeastern University; his PhD (in computer science I presume) was earned at M.I.T.
My PhD is actually in mathematics. I was admitted to and completed my PhD in MIT's pure math program.

It would also be correct to say my PhD is in both mathematics and computer science, because my PhD dissertation was interdisciplinary. My dissertation advisor, Professor Carl Hewitt of MIT's EE&CS department, completed his own PhD through MIT's pure math program.

Anyone who cannot follow the jargon has no business making assertions about the meaning of the papers. This certainly includes Mozina but it also includes well educated scientists from some unrelated discipline; there is no reason to assume that someone with a PhD in pure mathematics, for instance, will immediately understand all of the jargon in a plasma physics paper, without making an effort to learn that jargon.
Although I had enough background in physics and applied math to be familiar with some of the jargon (such as "open" versus "closed" field lines), I still had to make an effort to understand the jargon of plasma physics, and I still don't understand very much of it.

In particular, it took some effort to understand the main results of Dungey's 1958 paper, partly because that paper contains some minor errors, partly because it's a response to a paper I haven't read, but mainly because it concerns the subject of plasma physics. On the other hand, the magnetic fields shown in figures 1 and 2 of Dungey's paper are the obvious keys to that paper. Because I took a good freshman-level course in electromagnetism (using Volume 2 of the Berkeley Physics Course, Purcell's Electricity and Magnetism), it was obvious to me that those magnetic fields can be reproduced in a vacuum, without plasma.

Michael Mozina is still in denial about that.
 
My PhD is actually in mathematics. I was admitted to and completed my PhD in MIT's pure math program.

The two of you need to stop erroneously using appeals to authority fallacies rather than real scientific arguments. I already provided you with a published work from MIT that REFUTES your claims! Since Tim's last paper is based on MHD theory, you're still stuck in a vacuum without a plasma particle to your name. If you don't have a published reference that claims reconnection occurs in the absence of plasma, when can I expect you to submit your UTTER NONSENSE for peer review?
 
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Although I had enough background in physics and applied math to be familiar with some of the jargon (such as "open" versus "closed" field lines), I still had to make an effort to understand the jargon of plasma physics, and I still don't understand very much of it.

That much is very clear. When you finally understand that electrical discharges can and do occur in plasmas and solar flares, and the "reconnection" process is *NOT* "plasma optional", then you will finally "understand" the plasma physics term "reconnection".
 
The two of you need to stop erroneously using appeals to authority fallacies rather than real scientific arguments. I already provided you with a published work from MIT that REFUTES your claims!
Yet Michael Mozina wonders why his irony meters keep exploding.

Michael Mozina has cited course notes that repeat a white lie that's often told to freshmen.

Since Tim's last paper is based on MHD theory, you're still stuck in a vacuum without a plasma particle to your name. If you don't have a published reference that claims reconnection occurs in the absence of plasma, when can I expect you to submit your UTTER NONSENSE for peer review?
In reality, which Michael Mozina takes such great pains to avoid, Tim Thompson just posted several references that do exactly what Michael Mozina says we have not done. Those citations include
Michael Mozina is also ignoring Somov's section 4.4.2 on "Magnetic Reconnection in a Vacuum".
 
Michael Mozina has cited course notes that repeat a white lie that's often told to freshmen.

*IF* that were true (and it's not), then you should be able to show me some PUBLISHED references that explain the fact it's a 'little white lie'. You're just telling another WHOPPER of a lie, which is why you won't produce anything *PUBLISHED* to support that claim either.

I didn't TWIST YOUR ARM to make you LEAVE OUT PLASMA and cut yourself off from MHD theory in the process. You chose to do that all on your own. It was your fatal mistake.
 
In reality, which Michael Mozina takes such great pains to avoid, Tim Thompson just posted several references that do exactly what Michael Mozina says we have not done. Those citations include
Michael Mozina is also ignoring Somov's section 4.4.2 on "Magnetic Reconnection in a Vacuum".

In reality I have gone though each of those references and noted where they either USE CURRENT, or MHD theory, leaving you utterly stranded in a vacuum without a single reference, or legitimate scientific support for *YOUR PERSONAL* claims. Stop trying to ride everyone ELSE's PLASMA PHYSICS coattails. You specifically claimed you could create reconnection *WITHOUT* plasma.
 
Perpetual Student
Yes, no point is special. The neutral point is simply a point that has no magnetic energy. So, we can say lines end and/or begin there. It has already been shown that this is consistent with ∇⋅ B = 0 -- everywhere -- including the neutral point.



Originally Posted by Perpetual Student
Yes, no point is special. The neutral point is simply a point that has no magnetic energy. So, we can say lines end and/or begin there.


NO! You can only say that *NO* (as in zero) lines BEGIN *OR* END there, just as no lines begin or end anywhere else. In fact no lines even necessarily pass through there! That's your *CONCEPTUAL* problem in a nutshell.


Mozina, what do you think magnetic lines are? They are mathematical abstractions that successfully model the behavior of the real world. There are no "real lines"! Gauss, Faraday and Maxwell, etc. created a model that reliably reflects the behavior of electromagnetic phenomena. If the model shows that the lines begin and end, they do; that's how physics works! There is no other physics outside of the model.
 
Mozina, what do you think magnetic lines are? They are mathematical abstractions that successfully model the behavior of the real world. There are no "real lines"!

You're right of course, they are entire *FIELDS*.

Gauss, Faraday and Maxwell, etc. created a model that reliably reflects the behavior of electromagnetic phenomena.

Sure, but that is all done *WITHOUT* claiming that B lines begin and end in EM theory.

If the model shows that the lines begin and end, they do; that's how physics works! There is no other physics outside of the model.

The *MODEL* that Clinger describes is a MONOPOLE UNIVERSE MODEL, not the universe we live in. In *THIS* universe that we live in, B lines do not begin at *ANY* point, even though Gauss's laws are satisfied at *EVERY* point. In this universe no B lines begin ANYWHERE, even though Gauss's laws are satisfied *EVERYWHERE*.
 
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You're right of course, they are entire *FIELDS*.
The concept of "field" is also a mathematical model.

Sure, but that is all done *WITHOUT* claiming that B lines begin and end in EM theory.
Show me how and where, using Maxwell's equations, the above is demonstrated

The *MODEL* that Clinger describes is a MONOPOLE UNIVERSE MODEL, not the universe we live in. In *THIS* universe that we live in, B lines do not begin at *ANY* point, even though Gauss's laws are satisfied at *EVERY* point. In this universe no B lines begin ANYWHERE, even though Gauss's laws are satisfied *EVERYWHERE*.
Perhaps you do not know what is meant by a mathematical model. Clinger is not describing a model. He is using a universally accepted model to demonstrate something that is true within that model.
 
The concept of "field" is also a mathematical model.

Ya, but it's a more "wholistic" concept that more correctly describes the continuity of the WHOLE CONTINUOUS THING.

Show me how and where ,using Maxwell's equations, the above is demonstrated

Pick up an freshman physics textbook that describes an ordinary quadrapole (electro)magnet experiment. Clinger already admitted his freshman textbook doesn't even once mention the term "reconnection" at all.

Perhaps you do not know what is meant by a mathematical model. Clinger is not describing a model. He is using a universally accepted model to demonstrate something that is true within that model.

I hate to burst your bubble, but not every mathematical abstraction is "true" any more than "epicycles" are true today.

His mathematical model is fine in monopoleverse. In this universe however, B lines have no source, no sink, no beginning and no end.
 
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LOL!
...
I just LOVE how you DON'T CARE that Priests MONOPOLE DEVICE is a CURRENT. :) Wow!
LOL
I just LOVE how you DON'T CARE TO UNDERSTAND that Priests MONOPOLE DEVICE is a MATHEMATICAL TECHNIQUE. :) Wow

I just love how you persist with your delusions about the paper, e.g. that equation 17 is derived from equation 16 and that there are actual MONOPOLES in the paper when they explicitly say there are no actual MONOPOLES!

Michael Mozina's delusions about the Demoulin & Priest 1992 paper V
 
MM: 1000's of references for MR = field lines breaking and reconnecting III

do I understand math *AND* physics, I pointed out YOUR error for you.
You are lying, MM.
You have not pointed out any error in W.D. Clinger's math from any of Michael Mozina claims to have "studied Calculus formally for years".

All you have been doing is screaming your ignorance of physics and the inability to learn:
MM: The definition of magnetic field lines = no lines at a neutral point II

We have to wonder about what you think about the scentists who state the B lines break and reconnect (MM: 1000's of references for MR = field lines breaking and reconnecting II).
Are they all stupid MM? Maybe it is a great big conspiracy MM? Or something else, MM?

Michael Mozina
Why are these scientists who know more about the math and physics involved than you (and me!) all wrong when they state that B lines break and reconnect?

A hint - it would be stupid to cite undergraduate physics where 'lies to children' are stated about B lines never ending.
 
MM: Explain your "0+0=0 and NOTHING begins there" statement

Been there, done that for a year now. 0+0=0 and NOTHING begins there.


And for a year now you have been regurgitating this gibberish.
  • What is the first zero?
  • What is the second zero?
  • What is the operation of addition being used to add these 'zeros'?
  • What is the resulting third zero?
  • What is the NOTHING?
 
Those neutral points are pretty unusual, hence interesting. Their rarity is the reason the popular myth about magnetic field lines neither beginning nor ending is a reasonable white lie for professors to tell freshmen.
There are a few of these white lies (I prefer lies to children) that professors tell undergraduates.
The one I remember best is how physicists first get introduced to tensors. They start as neat ways to summarize systems of equations as matrices!
It is not until later you are introduced to their more fundemental nature, e.g. a way to express the laws of physics independently of coordinate transformations.

And one example from my previous area of expertise. To an undergraduate a crystal is a periodic, ordered structure. But later on you learn about quasicrystals which are ordered but not perioidic!
 
You keep handwaving about the fact that Guass's law is satisfied in the NULL. So what? That same law is satisfied EVERYWHERE, not just in the NULL. The same number of lines that enter ANY region, exit that same region. That is fundamental TRUTH of basic EM theory.
...snipped rant...
That is fundamental TRUTH of basic EM theory. The same number of lines that enter ANY region, exit that same region (Gauss's law of magnetism).
Thus a field line that crosses a null point obeys Gauss's law of magnetism.

What you have been ignoring is that the definition of a field line means that there can be no field line at the null point.
MM: The definition of magnetic field lines = no lines at a neutral point II
The result is that the field line has to end before the null point and start after the null point. The line has broken.
 
You remain ignorant that you are the only one here claiming that monopoles are needed for magnetic reconnection. Citing the lies to children that professors tell undergraduates and are repeated on web sites it stupid.
You need to learn more advanced physics. If you are too lazy to do so or just cannot do so (or there is some reason you cannot understand this physics) then you need to trust people who are not lazy and have learned the phsyics, e.g. the scientists who work with magnetic reconnection.
MM: 1000's of references for MR = field lines breaking and reconnecting III

Or even the other people in this thread :eye-poppi !
 
Then the PRIMARY DIFFERENCE is Priest and Schriver must use PLASMA and MHD theory to get that movement, leaving Clinger still swinging in the breeze without a plasma particle to his name.
The primary difference is that you think that Priest and Schriver is the basis of W.D. Clinger's simple derivation of magnetic reconnection.
It is not. They have a "toy model of vacuum reconnection". To anyone who can read English this is a toy model of magnetic reconnection in vacuum. The toy model is different from W.D. Clinger's simple derivation of magnetic reconnection.

W.D. Clinger's simple derivation of magnetic reconnection is undergraduate science. To understand it all you need is freshman math - something that you claim to know - and undergraduate physics (maybe 2nd year rather than freshman), which you are totally ignorant of given your rants about B field lines, e.g. MM: Explain your "0+0=0 and NOTHING begins there" statement and you bit about pressure somehow excluding magnetic field lines from a null point.

That MR happens in vacuum is supported by the scientific literature:


MM: 1000's of references for MR = field lines breaking and reconnecting II includes:
Then you have your delusions bout Somov:
Michael Mozina's delusions about Somov's 'Reconnection in a Vacuum' section VI
 
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