Moderated Iron sun with Aether batteries...

Status
Not open for further replies.
Why don't photons melt iron?

Why doesnt this lamp melt??
Pay attention to the conversation. I have already answered that question in another context. See my earlier post Iron Surface Thermodynamically Impossible VI (14 July 2010):
So, why does the mirror on TRACE not melt in the face of melting photons in the 192/5Å passband? It's all about intensity. The TRACE mirror has to deal with a few photons. One at a time, we don't necessarily expect the photons to ionize or melt anything (although the coatings are intended in part to prevent degradation of the primary mirror). But when photons gang up on a surface, they can and will provide enough thermal energy to melt & vaporize that surface, and then ionize the resulting vapor. Here at Earth, where we find TRACE, the incident solar EUV flux will be about 2 erg cm-2 sec-1, whereas at the sun we are looking at roughly 600,000 erg cm-2 sec-1 (which will be much higher near active regions). And do note this is EUV flux only, the bolometric flux at the photosphere is about 60,000,000,000 erg cm-2 sec-1. That's a lot of photons, and we cannot simply pretend that any solid surface is immune to the effect of that kind of photon bath.
Remember that the energy of an individual photon is just Planck's constant x frequency, and that energy can easily be converted to a temperature, where temperature = (energy / Boltzmann's constant). Nobody argues that a single high temperature photon will melt much of anything, but then nobody (?) can deny that a few zillion high temperature photons are likely to melt whatever they encounter, given a sufficient number of photons (that's what intensity is), and barring the effect of outside agents (like refrigerators).
 
Photons and aether theory

It is the view of aetherometric theory that solar radiation does not consist of photons, but of the massfree electrical charges that compose the scalar electrical field [http://aetherometry.com/abs-AS2v2B.html#abstractAS2-17A]. Moreover, it is also the view of aetherometric theory that photons are 'punctual' and local productions, that they do not travel through space but rather occupy a globular space where they are created and extinguished.
...
Aetherometry contends that what travels through space and transmits the light impulse is electrical radiation composed of massfree charges and their associated longitudinal waves (the true phase waves), not electromagnetic radiation composed of photons and their transverse waves. The wave transmission of all electromagnetic signals depends on the transmission of nonelectromagnetic energy, specifically the transmission of electric massfree charges (the propagation of Òthe fieldÓ). "
This fancy looking explanation leaves me with unanswered questions. Here are a few for your consideration.

First question: What laboratory experiment or natural observation can we perform, the result of which will allow us to differentiate between our existing standard scientific theories and the aether ("orgone"?) theory you present here?

Second question: We know that charged particles couple with both electric & magnetic fields, such that their state of motion is radically altered by the presence of such fields, as compared to the absence of such fields, and we know how to precisely predict the effect of the fields. We also know as a result of observation that photons do not couple to these fields as would charged particles, leading to the obvious conclusion that photons do not carry any net electric charge. How does the hypothesis that photons are "massfree charges" reconcile with the observation that photons are not only "mass free", but also "charge free"?

Third question(s): We are now quite adept at detecting individual photons. CCD detectors, and similar solid state technologies, are extensively used in astronomy, and in other branches of science, for the explicit detection of photons (which can be individually counted). So, if there are no photons propagating, say from the sun to Earth, then where do the photons that we do detect come from? Where along the sun-Earth path are they created? And what are they created from? How do we observationally detect the parent entities from which photons are created?
 
von Richenbach is quoted in support of the discovery of the aether, which took place over many years and was the result of the work of many scientists.
[/url]

And subsequently proven not to exist by e.g. the MM experiments. Aether is not necessary, it has no properties apart from "allowing EM waves to travel through vacuum," but as light is also a particle such a medium is superfluous. However, you are naturally allowed to stay in the 19th century, maybe you will discover flogiston in the Sun.

The spherical iron sun acts like an antenna transforming aether into electricity similar to a photon receiving antenna. when you examine this idea in the context of Aetherometrys conceptualization of the photon, its really photons

So, what exactly is aether then? And why don't we pick up that "electricity" here on Earth and use it to solve the energy problem?

"Basic differences between the conventional and aetherometric conceptions of the photon

1. On the nature of photons
1.1. Currently, it is held that solar radiation consists of photons. Implied in this is the notion that photons travel through space, like fibers of light, with analogy to ballistic models for the projection of material particles - as if the photons were hurled across space.

It is the view of aetherometric theory that solar radiation does not consist of photons, but of the massfree electrical charges that compose the scalar electrical field [http://aetherometry.com/abs-AS2v2B.html#abstractAS2-17A]. Moreover, it is also the view of aetherometric theory that photons are 'punctual' and local productions, that they do not travel through space but rather occupy a globular space where they are created and extinguished.

What "massfree electrical charges" why have we not measure these magical electrical charges? And what scalar electric field? Why have we not measured such a electric field? And the bold part is just word salad, "occupy a globular space"????

Looking at the first part of the page you link to, it is clear that the authors have no comprehension of electrodynamics. If you want to read something, then read Eugene Parker's Conversations on Electric and Magnetic Fields in the Cosmos. Point 1.2 is just the same claim with further nonsense.

How is current driven in a radio receiver? Basically you amplify the existing current that shows up on the antenna. It is a resonance phenomena.
At this level the leakage current is great enough to sustain the glow mode operation of the sun.
[/url]

How is the sun receiving this "aether stuff" and what is resonating and where is the energy coming from, what is energizing this "aether" that it emits this "radiation" that the sun can pick up and "amplify." And why is there a leakage current? These magical massfree electric charges or what? Why have we never measured these charges?

As long as the surrounding area is at a lower potential than the sun current will flow out of the sun into space.
Its possible that electrons disintegrate back into aether or that space is expanding requiring more electrons.

And what exactly is creating this potential drop?
Electrons CANNOT disintegrate into the aether as according to your own link the aether produces massfree electrical charges. Maybe you should read the junk that you link to first before you incorporate it into your electric iron sun model.

High voltage doesnt appear to generate much of a magnetic field where as high current does.

But there has to be a great current if these magical massfree electric charges flow from the sun to the whaterver it flows to, and thus creates a magnetic field. A radial current from the sun, however, would not generate the magnetic field that we measure in the interplanetary space. But hey, why bother about actual observations?

There is no doubt that there are polar plumes and electron beam that emit x-rays. This means high voltage.

That is no answer to my question, but as you are changing the electric iron sun model as you go, I cannot be bothered. And no, the electron beams that "emit x-rays" do not immediately mean high voltage, it means strong EMF or induction, which generates high energy electrons which impact e.g. the footpoints of a magnetic loop and generates X-rays through bremsstrahlung.

If you are asking what is the exact physical process that makes electrons out of aether, I dont know exactly. It probably the same problem the Arp and Narlikar were working on. It could be from a pinch process as outlined here

So, you have nothing but a link with junk science. I don't think Arp ever debated an electric sun.

Cosmic ray spectrum above 1015 eV (a new approach)
A.A. Petrukhin
Moscow Engineering Physics Institute, Moscow 115409, Russia
Presenter: A.A. Petrukhin (petruhin@nevod.mephi.ru), rus-petrukhin-AA-abs1-og12-oral

From the conclusions: Of course, some contradictions with modern theoretical conceptions and interpretation of existing experimental data remain, and their re-analysis is required. This only works if "a new kind of matter is generated", sure.


Here Aetherometry says they have detected the process.


"AS2-17C The cosmic background microwave radiation as evidence
for cosmological creation of electrons with minimum kinetic energy
and for a minimum of cosmic ambipolar massfree energy"


Correa PN, Correa AN
Exp Aetherom, Series 2, Vol. 2B, 17C:1-61 (April 2002)

I am sorry, but really ORgone? I don't think this "journal" should be taken seriously.
 
It doesnt matter what you want to call it its still the basic energy of the universe. Again nobody has explained why there is a sidereal signal in data. Why are laser gyros locked to the stars on sidereal time??
i.e. Why do the fringes move in response to a frame of reference that is not the earth, and IS the stars?

It does matter what you call it and “the basic energy of the universe” is just nonsense. What makes one form of energy more “basic” than another? Zreo point enegy has a specific meaning it is the point at which no further energy can be extracted from the system. It also has specific and testable implications. Orgone energy (or “the basic energy of the universe) has no specific meaning or testable implications. If you think otherwise please present such test data verifying “Orgone energy (or “the basic energy of the universe).

If you have some specific reference for the “sidereal signal in data” you are referring to that might help.


It was orginally discovered by Karl Reichenbach (Freiherr von), probably someone noticed it before that but Karl wrote down the most complete description. Reich came after Karl. Tesla knew about Von Richenbach's work as well. Crooke (of x-ray tube fame) also was investigating the dark space in connection with this energy. The latest in a long line of research into this energy is Aetherometry.


So think of the sun as an geometric antenna receiving aether and the energy is coming out as electrons. Just like a regular antenna converts photons to electric current.

“receiving aether” from where? Please show any reproducible tests confirming the existence of “aether” let alone that ““receiving aether” produces energy or even just electrons? What are the specific physical properties of “aether”? What reproducible tests have confirmed these properties?



Researches on magnetism, electricity, heat, light, crystallization, and chemical attraction: in their relations to the vital force
http://books.google.com/books?id=KukRAAAAYAAJ&dq=Karl+Reichenbach




"Luminous World" Baron Karl von Reichenbach
One chapter in forgotten science history introduces one of the greatest researchers of all time, whose investigation of basic life-related energies stands paramount in the history of qualitative science. His name forgotten and ignored by modernists, the life and work of Baron Karl von Reichenbach stands as a monument. He is a true scientific legend, a giant, a reminder that the world is more marvelous than we are led to believe by those who misalign our perceptions and misdirect our views. It is for this reason that I have chosen to begin the LOST SCIENCE series with his biography.

Edited by Gaspode: 
Edited for rule 4.


http://www.hbci.com/~wenonah/history/odenergy.htm

From that link.

Somnambulism, night cramp, night fears, and emotional hysteria were remarkably incomprehensible maladies. Each such illness was utterly fascinating to him. They seemed to affect only certain "sensitive" or "nervous" individuals. The mystical nature of these ailments, especially that of "sleepwalking", provoked fear among all classes of people during this time period. No class, ethnic, or religious group lacked victims of the conditions, which seemed to carelessly select its helpless victims. But beneath the surface of these extraordinary maladies Reichenbach suspected the extraordinary.

Oh no, don’t open The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari, you might wake the Somnambulist!!! However, your unlikely to reawaken the notion of the Luminiferous aether as it died a long time ago. Though evidently some people are still walking around with its bones like some Weekend at Bernies and while they must be sleepwalking it certainly isn’t (unless you can actually put some meat back on them bones).
 
Is this what you are referring to brantc?


http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/physics/pdf/0406/0406156v1.pdf

In an Earth-fixed reference system, such as that of a ring laser fixed to the Earth’s surface, the forced retrograde diurnal polar motion is best viewed as a principal mode – the so-called “tilt-over mode” (K1) – with the period of exactly one sidereal day (23.93447 hours), whose amplitude is modified as the angles and distances between the Earth, Moon and Sun vary over the course of their orbits.
 
Why do you ask such a silly question?

Because your statements suggest to me that you don't know the answer.

It seems that if the source is bright enough, you can see it at almost all wavelengths due to the thinness of the glow layer above the surface.

That doesn't answer my question. What do you think white light is?
 
Published, where and when?
Results replicated, when?

Replicated every day when a measurement is taken from a laser gyro system.
LTN-92 Ring Laser Gyro Inertial Navigation System

The LTN-92 Inertial Navigation System (INS) is the world's leading laser gyro replacement for the mechanical INSs used on many military transport and commercial aircraft, including "classic" B747s, DC-10s and L-1011s. The LTN-92 uses three ring laser gyros, force rebalanced accelerometers, and three high-speed digital microprocessors to provide an advanced technology, all-attitude, worldwide navigation system offering up to five times the reliability of mechanical inertial navigation systems. The system’s ability to manage internal navigation bulk data storage allows for comprehensive worldwide flight planning.
http://www.es.northropgrumman.com/solutions/ltn92/index.html

Siderial period of fringe effects used by GPS how?

All interferometers use sidereal time. GPS is not sensative enought to know that so they call it the Sagnac Effect. If you can pick out a sidereal signal, then you can measure sidereal time.

Direct measurement of diurnal polar motion by ring laser gyroscopes
http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2004/2003JB002803.shtml


Canterbury are the experts in ring laser gyros.

Large Laser Gyroscopes for Monitoring Earth Rotation
Objectives


Today, Earth rotation parameters are routinely obtained using the geodetic space techniques VLBI (Very Long Baseline Interferometry), SLR (Satellite Laser Ranging), GPS (Global Positioning System) und DORIS (Doppler Orbitography by Radiopositioning Integrated on Satellite). Technical progress over the last decades resulted in a precision of recently 0.01 milliseconds in length of day and 0.1 milliarcseconds in pole coordinates. The common principle is the relative measurement of rotation by observing reference points, stars or satellites, outside the rotating Earth. All these techniques require global networks and structures for the observation and data handling, which are coordinated by the international services IVS, ILRS, IGS and IDS.

The absolute measurement of rotation using inertial rotation sensors is a completely different approach. Mechanical gyros measuring the coriolis force are by far not sensitive enough to detect Earth rotation variations. Instruments measuring the centrifugal acceleration as a part of the total gravity vector, gravimeters and tiltmeters, are basically sensitive to Earth rotation variations, but even the excellent resolution of superconducting gravimeters of 10-11 g is not sufficient to resolve short-period Earth rotation variations. In contrast, laser gyroscopes use the Sagnac effect, whereas the small wavelength of the laser light allows an extreme high resolution. An adequate sensitive laser gyroscope attached to the Earth gives us instantaneous access to the spin of the Earth and the orientation of its axis. For the determination of the complete rotation vector, three linear independent laser gyroscopes are required.

The basic goals of laser gyroscopes for Earth rotation monitoring are:

* Detection of short-term spin fluctuations with a resolution of 10-9
* Detection of short-term polar motions with a resolution of 0.2 mas or 6 mm
* Near real time acquisition with a temporal resolution of 1 hour or less

It is not expected that laser gyroscopes will ever reach the excellent long-term stability of the geodetic space techniques. However, the increasing interesting short-time range is poorly covered by these techniques. Furthermore ring laser measurements are continuous, while VLBI and SLR usually have a resolution of one day, with gaps of some days.
http://www.wettzell.ifag.de/LKREISEL/G/LaserGyros.html

Alleged attribution of aether, where in the paper?

Not in a paper. But what would you call it?? I call it the background of the universe since it is NOT in the earth frame.. And it affects light. Typically one would call that the aether.


1991 - Over a six-month period, Roland DeWitte finds, over a 1.5 km underground coaxial cable, a cyclic component in the phase drift between higher-precision cesium-beam clocks on more-or-less the same meridian; the period equals the sidereal day [1][2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_luminiferous_aether
 
Pay attention to the conversation. I have already answered that question in another context. See my earlier post Iron Surface Thermodynamically Impossible VI (14 July 2010):

Remember that the energy of an individual photon is just Planck's constant x frequency, and that energy can easily be converted to a temperature, where temperature = (energy / Boltzmann's constant). Nobody argues that a single high temperature photon will melt much of anything, but then nobody (?) can deny that a few zillion high temperature photons are likely to melt whatever they encounter, given a sufficient number of photons (that's what intensity is), and barring the effect of outside agents (like refrigerators).

The iron surface will reflect. Even if it is being sublimated. It will not absorb 100%. There is no material that absorbs 100%.

The flux of photons is from a material that is at least 1 million time less dense than the iron. So the UV photon flux is a million time less at least that if it was from a solid material. So the iron is not being sublimated that quickly.

I can make a fake spectrum that is any temperature that I want it to be. And you could not tell what the source was.
 
von Richenbach is quoted in support of the discovery of the aether, which took place over many years and was the result of the work of many scientists.

And subsequently proven not to exist by e.g. the MM experiments. Aether is not necessary, it has no properties apart from "allowing EM waves to travel through vacuum," but as light is also a particle such a medium is superfluous. However, you are naturally allowed to stay in the 19th century, maybe you will discover flogiston in the Sun.

The MM experiments were a drop in the bucket of such experiments. Especially compared to people like Dayton Miller. If you read all of the experimental conditions you see that there are better chances under certain conditions.
If you want to believe that experiment from 100 years ago proves the aether doesnt exist, thats fine.
But MM says nothing about any other theories or more recent interferometry experiments with better accuracy.

It certainty says nothing about the more recent experiments with large ring laser gyros.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
You tell me (a hint - it is not the Sun, there is not roughly black body spectrum).

This does not change the facts for the surface of the Sun:
  1. The measured temperature of the whole Sun is ~5777 K.
  2. No place on the Sun has a measured temperature less than the melting point of iron.
  3. The melting point of iron is 1811 K.
  4. Thus there can be no solid iron surface on the Sun.
You have the idea that the Sun's temperature is only measured as an average. That is wrong, e.g. the temperature of sunspots are also measured to be greater than the melting point of iron.
And then you come up with a very misunderstod bit of physics - arcs melting points in an iron plate. Your mistakes were
  • Your arcs are shining on the iron surface. Whatever light we detect is also being absorbed to some extent by your WHOLE iron surface. That surface melts.
  • At the start the WHOLE surface of your hypothetical iron surface is not boiling - just areas. That destroys the suraface in that area and other areas start to boil. Over time all areas on the surface boil and there is no more surface!
    Basically what your arcs are doing is destroying your surface.
  • The third point that you do not understand is that no point on the Sun has a measured temperature less than the melting point of iron..
You ignored the question wrt that last point so I will ask it again
First asked 4 September 2010
brantc,
But I may be wrong. I am sure that you can cite hundreds of papers measuring areas the surface of Sun being less than 1811 K.
Please cite the many papers measuring areas the surface of Sun being less than 1811 K


Cathode Arc spot.
Sunspots are looking down onto a loop footprint.
Solar moss provides a wide spread elevated temperature.

A mixture of plasma can provide a spectrum similar to a black body but the total heat output is less than a solid surface of an equivalent temperature.

The solid body of the sun re radiates this excess heat as IR.
 
How long does it take for your solid iron surface to sublimate

Cathode Arc spot.
...
The solid body of the sun re radiates this excess heat as IR.
What has this got to do with the physical measurments of the temperature of the Sun?
  1. The measured temperature of the whole Sun is ~5777 K.
  2. No place on the Sun has a measured temperature less than the melting point of iron.
  3. The melting point of iron is 1811 K.
  4. Thus there can be no solid iron surface on the Sun.
Even if you could come up with some way to create your physically impossible, invisible solid iron surface about 5 billion years ago (the age of the Sun) then it will sublimate in a short time frame. Of course I expect that you will claim that it is replaced by magic iron from the aether :)

Actually that raises yet another question about your debunked idea, brantc.
Assume that the entire mass of the Sun is in your physically impossible solid iron surface. Heat it to 3000 K which is the lowest temperature measured on the Sun.
How long does it take for your solid iron surface to sublimate?

As an expert in solar physics you should be able to answer this easily :rolleyes:.
 
1991 - Over a six-month period, Roland DeWitte finds, over a 1.5 km underground coaxial cable, a cyclic component in the phase drift between higher-precision cesium-beam clocks on more-or-less the same meridian; the period equals the sidereal day [1][2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_luminiferous_aether
Thank you pointing out this Wikipedia page that shows that the luminiferous aether can be treated as not existing.

You cherry picked the 1991 experiment to quote so here is one of the many that show that the luminiferous aether has no effect:
Timeline of luminiferous aether
2003 - Holger Mueller and Achim Peters carry out a Modern Michelson-Morley Experiment using Cryogenic Optical Resonators at Humboldt University, Berlin. They find no shifting in 10^-15.

Another point is that you are quoting experiments about the luminiferous aether which has nothing to do with your "aether" whatever that is.
 
This fancy looking explanation leaves me with unanswered questions. Here are a few for your consideration.

First question: What laboratory experiment or natural observation can we perform, the result of which will allow us to differentiate between our existing standard scientific theories and the aether ("orgone"?) theory you present here?

Von Richenbach describes many observations in his work. Unfortunately they are under difficult conditions. Dan Davidson describes some experiments with a magnetometer that he did. These are what I'm trying to replicate right now.
Aetherometry has performed a whole series of experiments.

Here is something that is over looked in the lit.

A history of Anomalous (longitudinal) reaction forces in plasma
discharges.


"Anomalous cathode reaction forces varying in proportion to the square of the input current were first identified separately by Tanberg and Kobel, in 1930, during studies of cathode vaporization in "vacuum"-arc discharges (VADs) and stationary cathode spots (1,2)"

"In the 1940's, little work was done on the North-American continent on the presence of longitudinal forces in plasma discharges. The notable exceptions may have been the self-funded research of W. Reich and of T.H. Moray."

"Admission of longitudinal interactions has always been problematic for the relativistic law of Lorentz (11), as well as for the Bio-Savart treatments of Ampere's Law (12). Quantum treatments of (high) field-emission, such as the Fowler-Nordheim law (strong fields pull out electrons with low energies, ie Fermi electrons) (13), also did not take these interactions into account."

"Subsequent research in the 1950's concentrated mainly on the study of cathode and anode spots, as well as on cathode erosion by crater formation (14-15)."

"By the 1960's, it had become apparent that the presence of tremendous electrodynamic forces acting longitudinally in the direction of the discharge could not be accounted for by the Lorentz/Bio-Savart Law. Moreover, as Plyutto et al remarked, the Tanberg vaporization hypothesis also could not explain the observed dependence of cathode reaction forces on gas pressure, nor the high velocity plasma streams emerging from the cathode (18)." Remark: Sound familiar? Like some solar phenomena??

"Since the 1980's, Aspden's theoretical framework has received recognition (49-53) and direct or indirect experimental confirmation (49-50, 54-55). In the mid-eighties, Prof. P. Graneau and his group showed that electrodynamic explosions induced by kilovolt pulsed ion discharges in pure water were greater by three to four orders of magnitude than expected by established theory (54-55)"

"In 1977, Aspden would file a British patent application (24) utilizing thermal conversion of the high anomalous acceleration of cathode-directed ions by electrons in VAD plasmas (25), but his circumstances did not permit him to pursue the work experimentally (26)."

In the 90's
"the emission-triggered Pulsed Abnormal Glow Discharge, or autogenous PAGD for short. The PAGD regime is an homeostatic structure (a fluctuating order) of cyclically recurring discontinuities"
"The autogenous PAGD regime deploys extraordinarily large cathode reaction forces, associated with the rebound of anomalously accelerated ions striking the cathode and the anomalous ion counterflow (vaporized cathode metal and gas ions) being swept forward by the emitted electronic flux."
(Sound like our sun?)

http://www.aetherometry.com/Labofex_Plasma_Physics/Archive/PwrfromAEemissions.html

Cold fusion now know as Low Energy Nuclear Reactions.

Steorn and their magnetic asymmetry anomaly.

There are many examples in the world around you and in the literature over the years. They just get ignored or explained away as an outlier.

Second question: We know that charged particles couple with both electric & magnetic fields, such that their state of motion is radically altered by the presence of such fields, as compared to the absence of such fields, and we know how to precisely predict the effect of the fields. We also know as a result of observation that photons do not couple to these fields as would charged particles, leading to the obvious conclusion that photons do not carry any net electric charge. How does the hypothesis that photons are "massfree charges" reconcile with the observation that photons are not only "mass free", but also "charge free"?

The photons are not mass free charges. They are emitted locally from a "globular space" around the electron/atom during an energy transfer process.

From Aetherometry.
<snip>
1.3. There are two types of photons: ionizing and nonionizing (blackbody). Aetherometry recognizes this accepted distinction, but suggests that it is a distinction still more profound than accepted physics itself holds, in that the two spectra are different as to the very conditions necessary for the production of one or the other type of photons. Specifically, Aetherometry claims that nonionizing or blackbody photons are locally generated whenever material particles that act as charge-carriers decelerate. Thus photons mark the trail of deceleration of massbound particles. This punctual generation of photons that marks the trails of decelerating massbound charges, combined with the decay in the kinetic energy of these charges, their release and scattered reabsorption by other adjacent massbound charges (thus causing so called conversion of electromagnetic energy into longer wavelength radiation), is what accounts for (1) the dispersion of energy through conversion into electromagnetic radiation (and Tesla's persistent claim that his power transmitters were not transmitters of electromagnetic radiation) and for (2) the approximate suitability of the stochastic model for the dispersion of a ray and the scatter of light.
<snip>
Furthermore, these new algebraic physical functions led aetherometric theory to claim that, likewise, the photon relation (E = m0 c2 = hυ) proposed by de Broglie has an equivalent that can be written as (E = λ0 c2 = hυ). This serves to highlight that, whereas the structure of electronic matter at a nanometric scale is electrical and forms a recognizable geometric object, a torus, the structure of a photon is what takes on the generic form of inertia, as per (λ0 c2 = hυ). Photons are the particles constituted by the structure c2, not elements of matter or electrons. The latter are only perceived as having an equivalent wave structure c2 when they are seized in their rest frame or their electromagnetic frame, or transformed into ionizing photons. But the structure of elements of matter while they remain such is electrical, described by the wave-product (Wk Wv), rather than c2. Hence, Aetherometry contends, the finite geometry of photons is globular, forming a quasi-sphere, and composed of two identical waves, whereas the finite geometry of electrons is toroidal and composed of two different waves, one truly electrical and the other truly magnetic. Accordingly, the waves of photons are only geometric product equivalents of the real electric and magnetic waves which compose either the rest mass of a material particle, or its kinetic energy. Therefore Aetherometry argues that photons do indeed possess two transverse fields, but the two fields or their vectors are organized such as to describe a local globularizing vortex, each relating a sine wave, and each wave being described by c in the fundamental derived or resultant relationship (E = m0 c2 = hυ).

Accordingly, Aetherometry explicitly argues that photons do not really have electrical or magnetic fields; this is in accordance with the fact that photons do not present electrical charge and that thus one does not mistake them for electrons! What possesses electrical and magnetic fields are charges, whether massfree or massbound. The latter, furthermore, possess such fields as are associated with their rest energy and also with the energy of their motion.

2.2. In accordance with the preceding, Aetherometry claims that solar radiation is electrical, not because it is composed of photons, but because it consists of propagating massfree charges. Unlike massbound charges, massfree charges have no fixed spin orientation with respect to forward propagation. They can be thought of as net spin 0 charges. But at any time, they may have an effective spin that is either -1/2 or +1/2 (actually, -1 and +1, as spin, in Aetherometry, is a number property of angular momentum, not of the number of 'hyperdimensions' attributed to states of polarization, as it is in Quantum Electrodynamics). They also have transverse, or near-transverse, electrical and magnetic fields, waves and field wave-vectors. But whereas the waves composing a photon are analogous to the transverse waves that propagate in water and limited to circularized motion, the waves composing a massfree charge are analogous to the longitudinal pressure waves responsible for the forward propagation of sound. Massfree charges cannot be described as occupying or forming a globular space, or even a toroidal one, but as occupying or forming a forward-moving cycloidal helix.

Third question(s): We are now quite adept at detecting individual photons. CCD detectors, and similar solid state technologies, are extensively used in astronomy, and in other branches of science, for the explicit detection of photons (which can be individually counted). So, if there are no photons propagating, say from the sun to Earth, then where do the photons that we do detect come from? Where along the sun-Earth path are they created? And what are they created from? How do we observationally detect the parent entities from which photons are created?

Think of it as the same energy that the "field" imparts to things. Aetherometry has identified just what the "field" is. Not virtual photons or whatever. Massfree charges. The lowest form of energy in Aetherometry is massfree energy. No charge, no inertia.

The field transmits the energy causing the particle to move and the particle responds by emitting a photon that is generated in the particle(locally) from the energy imparted by the field.

From Aetherometry.
"claims that solar radiation is electrical, not because it is composed of photons, but because it consists of propagating massfree charges. Unlike massbound charges, massfree charges have no fixed spin orientation with respect to forward propagation."
 
Iron Sun Surface Thermodynamically Impossible VII

The flux of photons is from a material that is at least 1 million time less dense than the iron. So the UV photon flux is a million time less at least that if it was from a solid material. So the iron is not being sublimated that quickly.
None of this has anything to do with the physics of sublimating the iron surface. You don't have to ionize the iron, you only have to break the Fe-Fe bond in the solid state (and in any case, you would not need to ionize the iron atoms, just overcome the photoelectric work function, 4.5 electron volts (7.2x10-16 Joules or 7.2x10-9 ergs) to drive an electron out of the conducting band). In easier to handle numbers, the enthalpy of atomization for solid iron is 414.2 KJ/mole and the molar volume is 7.09 cm3. A cube of that volume will measure 1.921 cm on a side, and the area of one face of that cube will be 1.9212 = 3.690 cm2. Now, let us recall ...
Here at Earth, where we find TRACE, the incident solar EUV flux will be about 2 erg cm-2 sec-1, whereas at the sun we are looking at roughly 600,000 erg cm-2 sec-1 (which will be much higher near active regions). And do note this is EUV flux only, the bolometric flux at the photosphere is about 60,000,000,000 erg cm-2 sec-1. That's a lot of photons, and we cannot simply pretend that any solid surface is immune to the effect of that kind of photon bath.
The relevant number here is the bolometric flux, since we only need to overcome the weak Fe-Fe bond, and that is what the enthalpy of atomization represents, the total binding energy of one mole or 7.09 cm3 of iron. That's 414.2 KJ/mole = 4.142x105 J/mole. Now, at about 6x1010 erg cm-2 sec-1 x 3.690 cm2 we get 2.214x1011 erg sec-1 = 2.214x104 Joules sec-1 deposited on the one exposed face of a molar volume at the surface. So it will take only 18.7 seconds to present enough energy to that exposed molar cube face to vaporize the entire molar cube. The actual time it takes to vaporize it depends on the efficiency with which the energy is absorbed, but that will certainly be very high; the optical reflectivity of iron is 65% at room temperature, but will drop fast with a non-specular surface, so the absorption must be nearly 100%. But even if we give you every benefit of chance and pretend the reflectivity is 65%, and absorption therefore 35%, then the vaporization of that mole of iron will take about 53.4 seconds.

So if you have an iron crust 100 km thick (that's 107 cm) and we get rid of 1.921 cm every 53.4 seconds, then all 100 km will be gone in 2.780x108 seconds. Now, with 3.1557600x107 seconds in one year, you can see that in just under 10 years your entire iron edifice will be destroyed. Make the layer 1000 km thick, and it takes just under a century. So even if you could dream up some way to get the iron there in the first place, you would then have to dream up a way to keep it from vanishing altogether in a really short time (which in fact we seriously over-estimate here because we are assuming an unrealistic 65% reflectivity, when the real reflectivity will br far less than that; double the absorption efficiency and you cut the iron layer lifetime in half).

Physics indicates that an iron surface for the sun is not thermodynamically acceptable.
 
Noticed the question your ignored in the last post so here is a fuller response and the question yet again.
Cathode Arc spot.
Nothing to do with the Sun or the question.
  1. The lowest temperature on the Sun is ~3000 K which is greater than the melting point of iron. So there is no cathode.
  2. If this is the debunked electric sun idea then we should merge this thread with the Electric universe theories here. thread.
But it is more likely to be random words from you.

Sunspots are looking down onto a loop footprint.
Wrong. Sunspots are under the coronal loops. They do not "look down" onto them.

Solar moss provides a wide spread elevated temperature.
Solar moss
Solar moss does not "provide" a wide spread elevated temperature. It is plasma at a temperature of ~2,000,000 K.

A mixture of plasma can provide a spectrum similar to a black body but the total heat output is less than a solid surface of an equivalent temperature.
Doubly wrong.
  1. A solid surface at an equivalent temperature of a solar plasma is a plasma because it is above the boiling point of the solid in general and certainly for iron.
  2. Stefan–Boltzmann law (black bodies at the same temperature radiate the same total energy per unit surface area).
You ignored the question wrt that last point so I will ask it for the thrid time
First asked 4 September 2010
brantc,
But I may be wrong. I am sure that you can cite hundreds of papers measuring areas the surface of Sun being less than 1811 K.
Please cite the many papers measuring areas the surface of Sun being less than 1811 K
 
Replicated every day when a measurement is taken from a laser gyro system.
LTN-92 Ring Laser Gyro Inertial Navigation System

The LTN-92 Inertial Navigation System (INS) is the world's leading laser gyro replacement for the mechanical INSs used on many military transport and commercial aircraft, including "classic" B747s, DC-10s and L-1011s. The LTN-92 uses three ring laser gyros, force rebalanced accelerometers, and three high-speed digital microprocessors to provide an advanced technology, all-attitude, worldwide navigation system offering up to five times the reliability of mechanical inertial navigation systems. The system’s ability to manage internal navigation bulk data storage allows for comprehensive worldwide flight planning.
http://www.es.northropgrumman.com/solutions/ltn92/index.html



All interferometers use sidereal time. GPS is not sensative enought to know that so they call it the Sagnac Effect. If you can pick out a sidereal signal, then you can measure sidereal time.

Direct measurement of diurnal polar motion by ring laser gyroscopes
http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2004/2003JB002803.shtml


So you are referring to the “measurement of diurnal polar motion by ring laser gyroscopes” of the Earth and the paper I linked?

What does this have to do with your “aether“? Please try to be specific.

Canterbury are the experts in ring laser gyros.

Large Laser Gyroscopes for Monitoring Earth Rotation
Objectives


Today, Earth rotation parameters are routinely obtained using the geodetic space techniques VLBI (Very Long Baseline Interferometry), SLR (Satellite Laser Ranging), GPS (Global Positioning System) und DORIS (Doppler Orbitography by Radiopositioning Integrated on Satellite). Technical progress over the last decades resulted in a precision of recently 0.01 milliseconds in length of day and 0.1 milliarcseconds in pole coordinates. The common principle is the relative measurement of rotation by observing reference points, stars or satellites, outside the rotating Earth. All these techniques require global networks and structures for the observation and data handling, which are coordinated by the international services IVS, ILRS, IGS and IDS.

The absolute measurement of rotation using inertial rotation sensors is a completely different approach. Mechanical gyros measuring the coriolis force are by far not sensitive enough to detect Earth rotation variations. Instruments measuring the centrifugal acceleration as a part of the total gravity vector, gravimeters and tiltmeters, are basically sensitive to Earth rotation variations, but even the excellent resolution of superconducting gravimeters of 10-11 g is not sufficient to resolve short-period Earth rotation variations. In contrast, laser gyroscopes use the Sagnac effect, whereas the small wavelength of the laser light allows an extreme high resolution. An adequate sensitive laser gyroscope attached to the Earth gives us instantaneous access to the spin of the Earth and the orientation of its axis. For the determination of the complete rotation vector, three linear independent laser gyroscopes are required.

The basic goals of laser gyroscopes for Earth rotation monitoring are:

* Detection of short-term spin fluctuations with a resolution of 10-9
* Detection of short-term polar motions with a resolution of 0.2 mas or 6 mm
* Near real time acquisition with a temporal resolution of 1 hour or less

It is not expected that laser gyroscopes will ever reach the excellent long-term stability of the geodetic space techniques. However, the increasing interesting short-time range is poorly covered by these techniques. Furthermore ring laser measurements are continuous, while VLBI and SLR usually have a resolution of one day, with gaps of some days.
http://www.wettzell.ifag.de/LKREISEL/G/LaserGyros.html



Not in a paper. But what would you call it??

How about what they called it in the paper I linked and you referenced “the forced retrograde diurnal polar motion” of the Earth. In basic terms the Earth has a bit of a daily wobble.


I call it the background of the universe since it is NOT in the earth frame.. And it affects light. Typically one would call that the aether.

What “is NOT in the earth frame”? How does “the forced retrograde diurnal polar motion” of the Earth affect light?

1991 - Over a six-month period, Roland DeWitte finds, over a 1.5 km underground coaxial cable, a cyclic component in the phase drift between higher-precision cesium-beam clocks on more-or-less the same meridian; the period equals the sidereal day [1][2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_luminiferous_aether

Oh a phase drift, like what, the Sagnac effect?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagnac_effect#Synchronization_procedures


“on more-or-less the same meridian;”?


The assertion of an aether looks far more wobbly than the Earth.
 
What has this got to do with the physical measurments of the temperature of the Sun?
[*]The measured temperature of the whole Sun is ~5777 K.
[*]No place on the Sun has a measured temperature less than the melting point of iron.

Can you show me a spot measurement of the solar surface temperature?

I have showed you.
 
So, what exactly is aether then? And why don't we pick up that "electricity" here on Earth and use it to solve the energy problem?

What exactly is a quark and why dont we use it for energy here on earth?

1987: Only 14% +- 23% of proton’s spin carried by quarks’ spins!

The Proton Spin Crisis begins!!

Looking at the first part of the page you link to, it is clear that the authors have no comprehension of electrodynamics. If you want to read something, then read Eugene Parker's Conversations on Electric and Magnetic Fields in the Cosmos. Point 1.2 is just the same claim with further nonsense.


Originally Posted by brantc View Post
There is no doubt that there are polar plumes and electron beam that emit x-rays. This means high voltage.
That is no answer to my question, but as you are changing the electric iron sun model as you go, I cannot be bothered. And no, the electron beams that "emit x-rays" do not immediately mean high voltage, it means strong EMF or induction, which generates high energy electrons which impact e.g. the footpoints of a magnetic loop and generates X-rays through bremsstrahlung.

From Hyperphysics;
"When a voltage is generated by a battery, or by the magnetic force according to Faraday's Law, this generated voltage has been traditionally called an "electromotive force" or emf. The emf represents energy per unit charge (voltage) which has been made available by the generating mechanism and is not a "force"."
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/elevol.html


Strong EMF. High voltage. Maybe you should read the stuff I'm giving you since the stuff you are reading has obviously confused you.

And I dont know how you get x-rays from induction unless you are say the high voltage from the induced EMF will generate x-rays.
 
Can you show me a spot measurement of the solar surface temperature?

I have showed you.
How big a spot?
But do not be lazy brantc - do your own research, don't trust my small knowledge of solar physics. Please cite the many papers measuring areas of the surface of Sun being less than 1811 K(5th September 2010).

We have showed you.
  1. The measured temperature of the whole Sun is ~5777 K.
  2. No place on the Sun has a measured temperature less than the melting point of iron.
  3. The melting point of iron is 1811 K.
  4. Thus there can be no solid iron surface on the Sun.
There are many other reasons that this physically impossible soild iron surface on the Sun is wrong as I pointed out before on 5th September 2010.

P.S.
How long does it take for your solid iron surface to sublimate?
8th September 2010
 
What exactly is a quark

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quark

and why dont we use it for energy here on earth?

Because they're not a source of energy.

1987: Only 14% +- 23% of proton’s spin carried by quarks’ spins!

Nope. Quarks are spin-1/2 particles. Three such particles can in principle either produce a total quantized spin of 1/2 or of 3/2. In the case of a proton, it's three quarks forming a spin-1/2 total. There's no missing spin anywhere.
 
1987: Only 14% +- 23% of proton’s spin carried by quarks’ spins!

The Proton Spin Crisis begins!!
Ziggurat, brantc is doing the usual crank techniques of
  • ignoring the fact that science progresses (what is correct in 1987 is not true in 2010!)
  • cherry picking information
  • not citing his sources
  • and bringing up something that has nothing to do with the topic
However this is interesting in its own right and since the topic of this thread is defunct (the Sun's surface has temperatures greater than the meilting point of iron as well as numerous other problems with brantc's idea), we may as well explore it.

A quick Google reveals that he got this from a PowerPoint presentation done by Christine Aidala in 2008: Solving the Proton Spin Crisis.
The problem is that it is not as simple as just adding up the spin of quarks to get the proton spin. This is because gluons also have spin and there are also virtual quark–antiquark pairs known assea quarks in the proton.
This is what the inital 1987 experimental results showed, more experiments (experiments done in 2004 cited) have not solved this but the RHIC is expected to reveal more about the situation by investigatin gluon spins. The 2008 RHIC data though does not solve the proton spin crisis.
 
Nope. Quarks are spin-1/2 particles. Three such particles can in principle either produce a total quantized spin of 1/2 or of 3/2. In the case of a proton, it's three quarks forming a spin-1/2 total. There's no missing spin anywhere.

Naively that looks fine; if it were that simple, you'd expect to be able to do polarized e-p scattering, zoom in on the sort of scattering events that probe the usual three valence quarks, and see this structure---scattering off of a +polarized proton should look like scattering off of two +quarks and one -quark. It doesn't, it looks a lot more like unpolarized-proton scattering. (We call this "deep inelastic scattering" or DIS and the HERA and CEBAF accelerators got very good at it.)

Don't forget that the proton is, in fact, a rather messy QCD slopbucket with a bunch of sea quarks and gluons, whose spins also contribute to the proton net angular momentum. You need to do very different scattering experiments to see the sea quarks (low-x) and gluons (via, say, polarized pp collisions, only possible at RHIC).

So perhaps instead of viewing the proton as three quarks, you should view it as five---three valence quarks, let's call them abc, and (say) one q-qbar pair in the sea, let's call them d and e. Your "naive" p+ would could get its spin from a+b+c-. But let's include the sea quarks; suppose that a p+ is actually an admixture of (a+b+c-d-)e+ and (a+b-c-d+)e+. The valence quarks are "unpolarized" (50%+, 50%-), even though the proton has a consistent + net spin.

Throw in the gluons and things are even more complicated; the complication, of course, is simply that the valence quarks are easier to experiment on than the sea quarks, and much easier than the gluons. So any spin that's not carried by the valence quarks appears "missing". What's the answer? Where IS the missing spin? Ten years ago I would have said "probably in the gluons" but I'm not conversant enough with recent RHIC results to know whether that's still a fair answer; there was also something about whether translation from DIS-asymmetry to target-particle-spin was complicated by the dense QCD environment.

But yeah, this is of no possible relevance to anything Brantc could have been talking about.
 
What is the basis for this belief? If there were a solid iron surface, wouldn't spectographic absorption (spelling and/or term may be wrong there) lines indicate this, given a surface of this nature would block any light from underneath it? Is this seen? If not, why would it not, in accordance with this bizarre model?

I suppose the simplest way to answer that question is to say that 20 years of satellite image analysis was the original source of information that caught my attention, along with the SERTS data and of course Birkeland's work (eventually). You'll find plenty of spectral evidence of iron, nickel and other heavy elements in the solar spectrum. Keep in mind that this is *NOT* a "mixed plasma" model, where iron supposedly stays "mixed" with hydrogen and helium. The spectral data can be "interpreted" in a variety of ways, and this is a "plasma separated" solar model.

171surfaceshotsmall.JPG

http://trace.lmsal.com/POD/movies/T171_000828.avi

tsunami1.JPG

http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com/images/vquake1.avi
 
Last edited:
What exactly is a quark and why dont we use it for energy here on earth?

1987: Only 14% +- 23% of proton’s spin carried by quarks’ spins!

The Proton Spin Crisis begins!!

Well, at least we have observed quarks and we do used them here on Earth, maybe not for energy, but the simplest example is Beta-decay, where a neutron turns into a proton and an electron and a neutrino, whereas your magical aether has not been shown anywhere on Earth.

So instead of coming up with obviously wrong information, why not show evidence of electron creation by the aether.

From Hyperphysics;
"When a voltage is generated by a battery, or by the magnetic force according to Faraday's Law, this generated voltage has been traditionally called an "electromotive force" or emf. The emf represents energy per unit charge (voltage) which has been made available by the generating mechanism and is not a "force"."
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/elevol.html
Yeah, but there IS no battery on ... through discharges or something of that ilk.
 
So any spin that's not carried by the valence quarks appears "missing". What's the answer? Where IS the missing spin? Ten years ago I would have said "probably in the gluons" but I'm not conversant enough with recent RHIC results to know whether that's still a fair answer; there was also something about whether translation from DIS-asymmetry to target-particle-spin was complicated by the dense QCD environment.

As far as I understand (which is barely at all), it is thought that it is a sum of quark spin, gluon spin, quark orbital angular momentum and gluon oam. But at least one of these (gluon oam IIRC) is very difficult to measure. But I could be talking nonesense.
 
Coronal Heating & Solar Wind III

This is an edited copy of post #3953 on page 99 of the unmoderated thread "Lambda-CDM Theory - Woo or not?", which has been marching along now since 10 February 2009. Obviously, the material below has nothing at all to do with that thread, a not unusual derail these days. I submit it to this thread as it is relevant and a reminder of points not yet effectively answered by those of an "alternative" frame of mind.

Zeuzz says: The coronal heating anomaly where the inverse square law of radiation is explicity violated is dually thermodynamically impossible if using the standard solar model. Still no theory has been backed up by adequate data to explain coronal heating, and coronal acceleration for that matter.

1 "The coronal heating anomaly where the inverse square law of radiation is explicity violated is dually thermodynamically impossible if using the standard solar model." That statement is factually false, there is no inverse square law violation of radiation. Evidently Zeuzzz does not understand the difference between radiant energy and particle kinetic energy, which is a pretty severe mistake for somebody who claims some expertise in physics. The kinetic temperature of the particles that make up the solar corona is on the order of 1,000,000 Kelvins, whereas the kinetic temperature of the particles that make up the solar photosphere, which lies below the corona, is roughly 5800 Kelvins. Since the spontaneous flow of heat energy is in all cases from higher temperature to lower temperature, and never the other way around (second law of thermodynamics), one might naively assume that this is an example a well established law of physics being violated. This is the "anomaly" to which Zeuzzz refers, and it has nothing at all to do with the inverse square law for radiation. It is also not an "anomaly" of any kind, although some who style themselves as alternative thinkers, but are actually rather careless thinkers, would like you to believe it is.

A moment of non-careless thinking will quickly reveal that a refrigerator prominently displays the transfer of heat from lower temperature regions inside the refrigerator to the higher temperature regions outside the refrigerator, in obvious violation of the fabled second law. Yet nobody seems upset about that, so what's the deal with these physics violating refrigerator things? The deal is that in a refrigerator, the transfer of heat is not spontaneous. I draw your attention to the critical presence of the word "not". Left to its own devices, water will always flow downhill, but we all know that it can be pumped uphill. Likewise, heat energy can be pumped "uphill", in the direction cold -> hot, as opposed to the natural direction hot -> cold. A refrigerator is simply a heat pump, which does work and expends energy and results in the pumping of heat "uphill". All one needs is a pumping mechanism and the "anomaly" of the corona becomes an interesting problem in physics, but violates no law of physics. So Zeuzzz is wrong on both counts: There is no "anomaly" at all, unless Zeuzzz is prepared to prove from first principles that any and all pumping mechanisms are impossible in this physical context, and since radiation is not involved, there is clearly no violation of the inverse square law for the decrease in radiation intensity.

And this leads us into the next topic ...

2 "Still no theory has been backed up by adequate data to explain coronal heating, and coronal acceleration for that matter." Not only is that statement factually incorrect, it is the exact opposite of the truth. There are in fact so many viable pumping mechanisms to choose from that the real scientific debate centers on which mechanisms are responsible for what fraction of the pumping, and whether or not there are still more pumping mechanisms that we have yet to elucidate. This is easy to determine with a cursory glance at the scientific literature. We should expect someone who claims knowledge & expertise in any field of science to at least have a minimal grasp of the published literature in that field.

These are all points I have made before: Coronal Heating & Solar Wind I (17 April 2010). This matter of the alleged impossibility of the solar corona temperature compared to the photospheric temperature has never yet been properly addressed by those who have alternative models for solar physics. I just thought I would drop by and remind you all of this fact.
 
I suppose the simplest way to answer that question is to say that 20 years of satellite image analysis was the original source of information that caught my attention, along with the SERTS data and of course Birkeland's work (eventually). You'll find plenty of spectral evidence of iron, nickel and other heavy elements in the solar spectrum. Keep in mind that this is *NOT* a "mixed plasma" model, where iron supposedly stays "mixed" with hydrogen and helium. The spectral data can be "interpreted" in a variety of ways, and this is a "plasma separated" solar model.

http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com/images/171surfaceshotsmall.JPG
http://trace.lmsal.com/POD/movies/T171_000828.avi

http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com/images/tsunami1.JPG
http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com/images/vquake1.avi
Mister Earl
These 2 images are examples of what we have been calling "bunnies in the clouds" logic. Note that Michael Mozina has just shown the images, not cited the sources or described what is in them. This should tell you that they are at least dubious support for his idea.

The first image is a great running difference movie from the TRACE spacecraft. It was constructed by taking the difference beween 2 images in a series of images of a coronal mass ejection event.
  • This is in the 171A passband of the instrument. It is recording light from plasma at a temperature of 160,000 K to 2,000,000 K. There is nothing solid there.
  • It is of activity in the corona not the photosphere.
  • The dark areas are where the temperature is decreasing, the light where it is decreasing. These areas happen to be next to each other (actually on either side of flares if you look at the original images). This gives the illusion of "mountain ranges".
The second image is a an example of a bit of honesty from MM. He asked the author about it and placed the reply on MM's web site.
MM's optical illusion of "rigid features" are actually areas of constant change happening in one location. As Dr Kosovichev has told him
The consistent structures in the movie are caused by stationary flows in magnetic structures, sunspots and active regions.
We know this from the simultaneous measurements of solar magnetic field, made by SOHO. These are not solid structures which would not have mass flows that we see.
These images are Doppler shift of the spectral line Ni 6768A.
The Doppler shift measures the velocity of mass motions along the line of sight. The darker areas show the motions towards us, and light areas show flows from us. These are not cliffs or anything like this. The movie frames are the running differences of the Doppler shift. For the illustration purpose, the sunquake signal is enhanced by increasing its amplitude by a factor 4.
(my emphasis added)

In both cases optical illusions created by the processing of the images have fooled Michael Mozina. This has been pointed oiut to him many timed over a period of 5 or more years.
 
I suppose the simplest way to answer that question is to say that 20 years of satellite image analysis was the original source of information that caught my attention, along with the SERTS data and of course Birkeland's work (eventually). You'll find plenty of spectral evidence of iron, nickel and other heavy elements in the solar spectrum. Keep in mind that this is *NOT* a "mixed plasma" model, where iron supposedly stays "mixed" with hydrogen and helium. The spectral data can be "interpreted" in a variety of ways, and this is a "plasma separated" solar model.

[qimg]http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com/images/171surfaceshotsmall.JPG[/qimg]
http://trace.lmsal.com/POD/movies/T171_000828.avi

[qimg]http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com/images/tsunami1.JPG[/qimg]
http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com/images/vquake1.avi


Okay, Michael, now that you've decided to rejoin this discussion, how are you coming on the evidence that you were so certain you'd get from the data sent back from the SDO program? Remember way back before you temporarily abandoned the thread you were saying stuff like this for many, many days...

The RD images at 171A and probably FEXX wavelengths will show opaque edges that are 4800Km inside the chromosphere.


How's that coming? Where are the running difference images you said you'd make which would show us all beyond any doubt that the Sun does indeed have a solid iron surface? As I recall you were even trying to get everyone to take your bet. Is that still on, or have you abandoned that, too?
 
I suppose the simplest way to answer that question is to say that 20 years of satellite image analysis was the original source of information that caught my attention, along with the SERTS data and of course Birkeland's work (eventually). You'll find plenty of spectral evidence of iron, nickel and other heavy elements in the solar spectrum. Keep in mind that this is *NOT* a "mixed plasma" model, where iron supposedly stays "mixed" with hydrogen and helium. The spectral data can be "interpreted" in a variety of ways, and this is a "plasma separated" solar model.

*Snipped images*

Since Brantc never awnsered my post, perhaps you will.
Your model for the sun implies that iron has physical properties vastly different from what current physics ascribes to it.
Ie. you believe it to be far stronger and/or differently affected by gravity than the mainstream models propose, as a hollow iron shell the size of the sun, according to the current model, would collapse in on itself.
The easiest way to prove this would be to show that iron can actually handle far more pressure than we currently apply to it in buildings and the like and can easily lead to massive improvement across the board for humanity.
How far are you along with proving this?
 
Since Brantc never awnsered my post, perhaps you will.
Your model for the sun implies that iron has physical properties vastly different from what current physics ascribes to it.

Well, that isn't *MY* belief. I assume it's just a standard crust and I'm not suggesting the crust is entirely composed of iron, it just has lots of iron in it.

you believe it to be far stronger and/or differently affected by gravity than the mainstream models propose, as a hollow iron shell the size of the sun, according to the current model, would collapse in on itself.

You're oversimplifying it IMO. It's not "hollow". It has pressurized plasma inside. Surface tension and internal pressure can have that effect on objects in space.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Iax3wNqktA

Why doesn't that water shell collapse in on the central bubble?

The easiest way to prove this would be to show that iron can actually handle far more pressure than we currently apply to it in buildings and the like and can easily lead to massive improvement across the board for humanity.
How far are you along with proving this?

I'd say "not very" because I'm not suggesting that the shell is "solid iron". That's not what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting it's a standard crust and floats on magma with core of superheated plasma. There is a lot of iron in a sun IMO, but it doesn't all have to be located in the crust.
 
A moment of non-careless thinking will quickly reveal that a refrigerator prominently displays the transfer of heat from lower temperature regions inside the refrigerator to the higher temperature regions outside the refrigerator, in obvious violation of the fabled second law. Yet nobody seems upset about that, so what's the deal with these physics violating refrigerator things? The deal is that in a refrigerator, the transfer of heat is not spontaneous.

Actually, I think this description of the problem confuses the issue. I'm sure you already understand what I'm going to say, but others might not. Heat isn't transferred from cold to hot at all, even in a refrigerator. Energy is transferred from cold to hot, and the temperature of the refrigerant is changed by means other than the flow of heat. But at each point in the refrigerator, heat always and only travels from hot to cold, never the reverse.

Let me give a simpler example which is, I think a little more relevant to the issue of the corona. Suppose I have a see-saw. On one end of the see-saw, I place a 1 kg block of hot iron. That end of the see-saw is now down on the ground. Now, what happens if I place a 2 kg block of cold iron on the other end of the see-saw? Well, the 2kg end will drop, and the 1 kg end will rise. And in the process, energy will be transferred from the 2kg mass to the 1 kg mass. Note what happened: energy flowed spontaneously from cold to hot. But energy is not synonymous with heat. No heat flowed from cold to hot.

And we can take this process a step further. Suppose I stuck a vertical board in the ground next to the see-saw, and coated the side in sand paper. Now, when the 1 kg mass moves, it scrapes against the sand paper. I repeat the process from the start: begin with the 1 kg hot iron on the ground, put the 2 kg cold iron on the other end, and let go. The cold iron drops, the hot iron rises, but now, as it rises, it scrapes along the sand paper and heats up. So we can heat up a hot object using a cold object. But not by the transfer of heat, but by the transfer of energy which is then converted into heat.

So what does this have to do with the corona? Simple: we can transfer energy (not heat) from the sun to the corona even though the corona is hotter. And this transferred energy can turn into heat. But we can't transfer heat to the corona. Because heat never flows from cold to hot.
 
You're oversimplifying it IMO. It's not "hollow". It has pressurized plasma inside.

What's the pressure of this plasma, Michael? And what's the corresponding density and temperature?

Surface tension and internal pressure can have that effect on objects in space.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Iax3wNqktA

Why doesn't that water shell collapse in on the central bubble?

We've been through this before, Michael.

Here I calculate the pressure inside an iron shell, finding that it's far too large for any known material to withstand:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5797482#post5797482
Here I point out that solids don't have surface tension, and that it doesn't scale in liquids:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5802412#post5802412
And here you even conceded that it wasn't surface tension:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5802470#post5802470

So in the only cases where I can ever recall seeing you concede a mistake and learn something, you've actually managed to go and unlearn it.

But you never did figure out the gravitational self-attraction of that water bubble you keep referring to. You're so keen on claiming that plasma physics "scales" (though it's unclear you even know what that means), so let's see if you can figure this out.

For your water bubble, gravitational self-attraction is miniscule, and the force it produces is far weaker than surface tension for that bubble. Gravity is an irrelevant perturbation. But surface tension doesn't scale: when we increase the size of our water bubble, the surface tension remains the same. But gravitational self-attraction DOES scale: it gets bigger as we make our water bubble bigger. So at some point, gravity will produce stronger forces than surface tension. And if we keep going, then surface tension will become the irrelevant perturbation, and gravity will dominate. And that point will happen long before we get to anything the size of the sun. In fact, the sun is so massive that, as I showed in that first link above, even the bulk stresses that solids can withstand (which are far stronger than any liquid surface tension) are orders of magnitude weaker than the force of gravity.

I'd say "not very" because I'm not suggesting that the shell is "solid iron". That's not what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting it's a standard crust and floats on magma with core of superheated plasma

That inner magma would fall inwards. Or, if you prefer, that inner plasma would bubble up. You've made the problem worse by adding a magma layer, not better.
 
Okay, Michael, now that you've decided to rejoin this discussion, how are you coming on the evidence that you were so certain you'd get from the data sent back from the SDO program? Remember way back before you temporarily abandoned the thread you were saying stuff like this for many, many days...

[...]

How's that coming? Where are the running difference images you said you'd make which would show us all beyond any doubt that the Sun does indeed have a solid iron surface? As I recall you were even trying to get everyone to take your bet. Is that still on, or have you abandoned that, too?


Okay, Michael, we're going to stay on this, because many months ago, for several days, tens of pages of this thread, you were absolutely certain that everyone else was wrong and you were right about the running difference images you could make from the SDO data. You declared without any ambiguity that the results of your creation of those running difference images would be the proof that you were looking for, the evidence that would convince us all that your conjecture is correct, or it would be the nail in the coffin, the evidence that would demonstrate the failure of your entire claim.

You seemed to abandon this thread, I'd suggest by no coincidence, at the point where the necessary data was becoming available. But now you've decided to get involved in the discussion again. You claim to be a legitimate scientist with every bit as much interest in falsifying your conjecture as proving it. So when can we expect you to post those running difference images?

Either way it turns out will be good for you. If you are correct, it will mean getting the attention of the entire world of astrophysical scientists. You'll get the assistance you need with your weaknesses like math, physics, image analysis, and communication. And with all that help from professionals, real scientists, you'll be able to flesh out your conjecture so it becomes a subject of legitimate science.

And if it turns out you're wrong, it will mean you're finally off the hook after all these years with the work of keeping up your claim. You'll be out from under all the ridicule that has been directed at your conjecture by pretty much every person who has heard of it. You'll be able to take down your web site, spend more time with your friends and family, and dedicate your attention to your other interests, hobbies, and your life. Are you prepared to finally show us what you've got and get this whole issue resolved?
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quark
Because they're not a source of energy.

Nope. Quarks are spin-1/2 particles. Three such particles can in principle either produce a total quantized spin of 1/2 or of 3/2. In the case of a proton, it's three quarks forming a spin-1/2 total. There's no missing spin anywhere.

Oh. My mistake. I didnt realize the Proton Spin Crisis had been solved!!
 
Ziggurat, brantc is doing the usual crank techniques of
  • ignoring the fact that science progresses (what is correct in 1987 is not true in 2010!)
  • cherry picking information
  • not citing his sources
  • and bringing up something that has nothing to do with the topic
However this is interesting in its own right and since the topic of this thread is defunct (the Sun's surface has temperatures greater than the meilting point of iron as well as numerous other problems with brantc's idea), we may as well explore it.
Stop calling me names.

And the proton crisis has not been solved by your admission so there is nothing wrong with bringing up a problem to show how long it has been a problem. There are many things that still valid after many years.:eye-poppi

This is also to bring light that the aether is not out of the realm of possibility. That the standard model has a few problems that may be solved by the judicious application of an alternate theory..
 
Naively that looks fine; if it were that simple, you'd expect to be able to do polarized e-p scattering, zoom in on the sort of scattering events that probe the usual three valence quarks, and see this structure---scattering off of a +polarized proton should look like scattering off of two +quarks and one -quark. It doesn't, it looks a lot more like unpolarized-proton scattering. (We call this "deep inelastic scattering" or DIS and the HERA and CEBAF accelerators got very good at it.)

Don't forget that the proton is, in fact, a rather messy QCD slopbucket with a bunch of sea quarks and gluons, whose spins also contribute to the proton net angular momentum. You need to do very different scattering experiments to see the sea quarks (low-x) and gluons (via, say, polarized pp collisions, only possible at RHIC).

So perhaps instead of viewing the proton as three quarks, you should view it as five---three valence quarks, let's call them abc, and (say) one q-qbar pair in the sea, let's call them d and e. Your "naive" p+ would could get its spin from a+b+c-. But let's include the sea quarks; suppose that a p+ is actually an admixture of (a+b+c-d-)e+ and (a+b-c-d+)e+. The valence quarks are "unpolarized" (50%+, 50%-), even though the proton has a consistent + net spin.

Throw in the gluons and things are even more complicated; the complication, of course, is simply that the valence quarks are easier to experiment on than the sea quarks, and much easier than the gluons. So any spin that's not carried by the valence quarks appears "missing". What's the answer? Where IS the missing spin? Ten years ago I would have said "probably in the gluons" but I'm not conversant enough with recent RHIC results to know whether that's still a fair answer; there was also something about whether translation from DIS-asymmetry to target-particle-spin was complicated by the dense QCD environment.

But yeah, this is of no possible relevance to anything Brantc could have been talking about.

Your assuming that we know what the deepest structure of the universe is.
We do not.
Particles that "glue" other particles together doesnt make sense.
How do you get attraction from a sphere(quark, gluon, etc)?? It still requires some force that emanates from the particle.

If you have something like wave structures that make up particles, that go into resonance, as the waves over lap you can have "attraction". Particles are made of Aether waves...per se.

If you were to read some of the Aetherometry stuff I posted, it goes a little bit into atomic structure. I think this has a bearing on how the sun operates.
 
  • This is in the 171A passband of the instrument. It is recording light from plasma at a temperature of 160,000 K to 2,000,000 K. There is nothing solid there.
  • It is of activity in the corona not the photosphere.
  • The dark areas are where the temperature is decreasing, the light where it is decreasing. These areas happen to be next to each other (actually on either side of flares if you look at the original images). This gives the illusion of "mountain ranges".

Again. If I take my 15000K spectrum light, or my 6500K lamp, I can take pictures with this lamp because the light reflects. I can take pictures with x-rays.
The temperature of the human body is not 220,000,000K for a 20kEv x-ray.
I can take pictures of objects that are cooler than 1 million degrees with light at 171nm...

So the idea that you cant see objects that are NOT at the emission temperature of the light with said light is not correct.
 
Well, at least we have observed quarks and we do used them here on Earth, maybe not for energy, but the simplest example is Beta-decay, where a neutron turns into a proton and an electron and a neutrino, whereas your magical aether has not been shown anywhere on Earth.

So instead of coming up with obviously wrong information, why not show evidence of electron creation by the aether.

I posted some stuff from aetherometry about this a page ago.

Yeah, but there IS no battery on the Sun, the electron beams that you want to have emit X-rays are generated by the change in magnetic field.

Thats what this whole thread is about.

From a previous post. The iron sun acts like an antenna. Antennas take EM(photons) and transform them into electricity.

So the sun takes the "aether" and transforms it into electricity. The leakage current is large enough to generate the effects that we see.

Oh I am not confused, only confused about your "model" of the iron sun with aether electrons and other nonsense stuff.

See above. The output of the sun is high voltage. Thats why there is not the corresponding high current magnetic field.

Yes, it is easy to talk about EMF when a magnetic field is changing because that describes in a way what is happening, however, it all comes back to Faraday's law that says that the change of the magnetic field over time in a current loop will generate an electric field. However, at the same time this electric field will generate electric currents. So basically all the energy through the changing magnetic field is pumped into the motion of the charged particles in the loop, and naturally most of it in the electrons. Thus we have highly energetic electrons that flow along the loop and hit the photosphere and there light up the footpoints in X-rays through bremsstrahlung. However, I think you would most likely like to generate the X-rays through discharges or something of that ilk.

Yes, that is true. But you have to have a starting point. I think that starting point is the kinetic energy of the electrons from the iron surface. That kinetic energy is imparted by the aether/antenna(the field) configuration. Geometry is important. Just look at antenna design theory.

I dont think its the mechanical motion of the sun changing the magnetic field as a driver. I also think that the Aether may be the driver for the suns rotation.
 
Well, that isn't *MY* belief. I assume it's just a standard crust and I'm not suggesting the crust is entirely composed of iron, it just has lots of iron in it.


But that just means that you consider a certain mixture of materials, containing iron, to have an amount of tensile strength far greater than modern physics currently ascribes to it. If this is true, then this particular mix would have the strength to seriously alter modern day building techniques.

You're oversimplifying it IMO. It's not "hollow". It has pressurized plasma inside. Surface tension and internal pressure can have that effect on objects in space.


But pressurized plasma and/or magma would add a considerable amount of mass.
The sun's mass is calculated pretty well. Given that your shell is not hydrogen, most of the currently known mass of the sun would be in there making it effectively hollow. The only way to produce enough outward pressure with some internal plasma would be to make this plasma so intensly hot it would instantly vaporize any known material. So in your model either this plasma/magma would have some from of anti-mass or anti-gravity to account for the sun's current known mass, or the shell is capable of maintaining its coherence in extreme temperatures.
Again, demonstrating either of these three properties should be possible on earth and would immediatly validate your theory AND gain immense prestige as practical applications of each would be immense. Surely that is the best way to convince people rather than try to point at solar pictures that can also be interpreted using current physics without the need for a solid shell?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Iax3wNqktA

Why doesn't that water shell collapse in on the central bubble?


See Ziggurats excellent post on why a small water bubble is not a good model for a giant hollow sphere in space



I'd say "not very" because I'm not suggesting that the shell is "solid iron". That's not what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting it's a standard crust and floats on magma with core of superheated plasma. There is a lot of iron in a sun IMO, but it doesn't all have to be located in the crust.

Again, what happens to the mass of the sun, and why is this iron/crust material not found in similar abundancy in the gas giants, the rest of the solar system or (super)nova remnants?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom