Continuation Part 10: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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anglolawyer

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As the thread has become lengthy once again, this is a continuation from Part 9. For further reference, see also Part 8, Part 7, Part 6, Part 5, Part 4, Part 3, Part 2, and Part 1.
Posted By: LashL


An axiom is an axiom, not a contention.
I am saying your deduction was patently false and illogical. On the other hand, what I say does not fall into the dicothomies of your "logic".
And I am saying precisely what I am saying - and have always said btw -that is DNA itself, taken alone, is not evidence (and in fact a discussion about alleles and DNA quality should be of Limited interest). Evidence is a logical concept not a physical finding. A date can be attributed to DNA finding, indeed; but it cannot be deduced by the finding of DNA material itself.
You need information of other kind. Might include crossing with other findings but I guess that in order to deduce a date you need information from other parameters of reality.

Obviously the bra clasp finding is not just DNA material, like any DNA evidence it's something that entails much more information than just the identity of the profile. The piece of information is tightly bound to a context. We know a lot about this subject, who he is, how many times she entered the room on what dates how many traces he left the tapistry of other evidence etc. The information connected to this piece is huge. And the most important is the absence of a plausible contamination path within it, the lack of an alternative probable explanation.

Part of the surrounding information is that we have only the word of an incompetent liar that there ever was anything on the clasp in the first place. Stefanoni claimed to have conducted an unrepeatable test knowing that in due course all traces of her deceit would be erased. You yourself explained that, Mschiavelli, when you told us all data arising from such tests must be destroyed by law. The discussion of exhibits 36B and 165B is unreal IMO. There is no evidence that either bore any relevant forensic traces.
 
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Sorry acbytesla, I recalled a determination but I could be wrong, and not my business of course, but part of the rich tapestry of the case is to have some sociological profile of those who would deprive people of liberty, to do so is an act of the greatest aggression.
Amazons?

You may be right Samson, no need to apologize..Now I'm confused about Griffin's sex. Or probably was. Griffin seems more like a male name to me..but it really doesn't have to be I guess.

Take it easy.
 
Chris_Halkides said:
On p. 85 of Honor Bound it says that he was in solitary after the Matteini ruling. He was in solitary for several months. At one point he was keeping a diary but he gave it to one of his lawyers. Some prison employees seized it. The lawyer complained and got it back, but apparently not before someone photocopied a few pages, including the knife story, and leaked it (pp. 107-108). Strange how PG commenters never tell this part of the story.

Thank you Chris, better elucidation than I expected. I have read no books (yet), many of my questions would be unnecessary. Griffinmill and others should do some thought experiments.
ETA, it occurs to me that I should read both books now, as I would expect them to be extremely accurate.

This whole, "they're liars" theme is one giant distraction. Guilters spend an inordinate amount of time and keystrokes claiming that innocent misstatements are lies, that statements based on someone else's misinformation are lies.... etc., etc.

My view is that this is a sign that there isn't really much else there. Both Peter Quennell back in the summer of 2011 and Machiavelli recently have been claiming that the DNA stuff (bra-clasp, kitchen knife) is now not that important, that there is "all the other evidence" that they claim points to their guilt.

And as far as I can tell, "all the other evidence" is a list of lies.... sometimes statements literally ripped from private diaries never meant to mislead anyone, really. A muse in a diary meant only for self-consumption years later suddenly for the likes of griffinmill become perjury as if blurted out under cross examination......

...... and is an element of "all the other evidence."

What I would really like to know is if in his recounting of the conspiracy to free Knox and Sollecito, a conspiracy where Machiavelli knows the exact amount of Euros it took Judge Hellmann to render an unjust verdict.....

Is Wladimiro De Nunzio a criminal? After all, he's the one Machiavelli says manipulated the system in "Machiavellian fashion" to put Hellmann in as judge in the first place.
 
Thank you, the only European institution that moves slower than the Italian justice system.

I think they need to hire some more help. I don't know why they don't start tapping into the constant stream of income that arises from penalties assessed for treaty violations.

Did you know that over 2012 and 2013, the ECtHR levied over 300,000,000 euros of "fines" against nations for human rights violations? Incredibly, 190,000,000 of this total was levied against one nation: Italy. See pp. 56-57 of this: http://www.coe.int/t/dghl/monitoring/execution/Source/Publications/CM_annreport2013_en.pdf

They need to just start charging individual countries additional court fees to help unclog the court system from all of their violations.
 
Part of the surrounding information is that we have only the word of an incompetent liar that there ever was anything on the clasp in the first place. Stefanoni claimed to have conducted an unrepeatable test knowing that in due course all traces of her deceit would be erased. You yourself explained that, Mschiavelli, when you told us all data arising from such tests must be destroyed by law. The discussion of exhibits 36B and 165B is unreal IMO. There is no evidence that either bore any relevant forensic traces.

..... in relation 36B, Stefanoni claimed she found Meredith's trace in a groove in the knife, a groove no one else can see on the knife.

The intrepid investigators over at PMF say they have a photo which clearly shows the striation. Yet what is included in the Massei motivations report is that the striation could NOT be seen in a photo, which is why Stefanoni had to say that it was only seen if one moved the knife back and forth under a strong light.

In any other court in any other land 36b would not be allowed in as evidence. At the very least, this would have saved Patrizia Stefanoni from perjuring herself at trial.

What has happened since is no less than the Italian injustice system protecting its internal officers from external review.

There simply is not a single external DNA expert who validates Stefanoni's work.
 
Everyone should congratulate Anglo for surviving the food and mean streets of Seattle.

It is a pity that Raf didn't write in his private diary that proper LCN DNA protocol wasn't followed and that the lab wasn't certified for that type of analysis. Of course, that would be interpreted as an admission of guilt because everyone knows that contamination is only used by guilty desperate people. Better yet he could have written in his private diary that Meredith needed help with her bra because the clasp was bent and when he had returned home he went straight for the knife and rubbed his finger on it. Novelli would cheer and accept the above as proof of contamination and ask for the next case.

Amanda's appeal has some interesting aspects. At the opening they ask for the case to be dismissed for the reason it has taken too long and yet at the end ask for a new trial.

They seem to accept that the footprints are Amanda's but just not in blood. I find it odd in that the pictures I've seen do not look like they could be matched to anyone.

In general it seems that the lawyers have been reading here ;) and have become a little more direct. They actually mention the slaps to Amanda during the interrogation. They finally seem to realize the importance of the Calunnia conviction.

Does anyone know if the panel at the ISC has been chosen.?
 
Stefanoni, acc. to Judge Massei, admits that the cardboard box in which the knife was kept was not sterile:

Massei p. 224 said:
She further specified that she received that knife, Exhibit 36, in a
cardboard box and that it was delivered to the laboratory where it was
photographed and analysed. It did not appear to her that the container of the knife
was sterile; she specified however that ‚not even samples *reperti] are sterile ... we
take samples from floors, from objects ... sterile is something which does not have
micro-organisms; we do not have anything that is sterile, not even the gloves, the
gloves are in a package‛​

Whether this non-sterile environment is important is not for me to decide, But in relating to the actual lies Stefanoni told, these were Stefanoni's lies which Judge Massei accepted as truth at the 2009 trial:

Massei p. 225 said:
She
reaffirmed that on the blade of knife Exhibit 36 a striation was visible but ‚placing
the exhibit under a source of illumination < like the conventional sort that has a
Reprovit, which is the instrument we use for photography; it was possible to observe
it only by placing it under a strong spotlight and by changing the angle at which the
light hit the blade, it was only in this way that these striations became visible to the naked eye < photos were attempted but it was too reflective < only white spots of
light came out‛​

So the PMF photo which claims to show so much is complete bullocks, even acc. to the people they claim to be defending.

Further, the test for blood could not be done because the sample Stefanoni claimed was there was too small. That test would destroy the sample, meaning that no further test for "ownership" could be done. So Stefanoni decided to go straight to the (similarly destructive) DNA test which would establish ownership.

Yet, the issue of the phantom groove/striation in which this was allegedly found would not go away, not even in the Massei report!!!

On this, Massei at least has the decency to include the opposing point of view about 36b.

On page 308, Massei record that even the expert appointed by the preliminary hearing judge, Professor Cingolani, could see the scratches.

In short, no scratches/grooves/striations.... no Sample 36B.

There is no one who saw/found 36B in the face of the world than Stefanoni.
 
Everyone should congratulate Anglo for surviving the food and mean streets of Seattle.

It is a pity that Raf didn't write in his private diary that proper LCN DNA protocol wasn't followed and that the lab wasn't certified for that type of analysis. Of course, that would be interpreted as an admission of guilt because everyone knows that contamination is only used by guilty desperate people. Better yet he could have written in his private diary that Meredith needed help with her bra because the clasp was bent and when he had returned home he went straight for the knife and rubbed his finger on it. Novelli would cheer and accept the above as proof of contamination and ask for the next case.

Amanda's appeal has some interesting aspects. At the opening they ask for the case to be dismissed for the reason it has taken too long and yet at the end ask for a new trial.

They seem to accept that the footprints are Amanda's but just not in blood. I find it odd in that the pictures I've seen do not look like they could be matched to anyone.

In general it seems that the lawyers have been reading here ;) and have become a little more direct. They actually mention the slaps to Amanda during the interrogation. They finally seem to realize the importance of the Calunnia conviction.

Does anyone know if the panel at the ISC has been chosen.?

Welcome back Grinder! You have been sorely missed.
 
I only just noticed these text messages have surfaced (at PMF apparently). It comes as no surprise to me to find a bunch of undeleted incoming SMSs on her phone. The story that she deleted Patrick's message was always bull ****. The cops did that. That phone should be examined (assuming it's not destroyed first) to see exactly when that message was erased. That will prove the cops were destroying and fabricating evidence long before the Rudy-for-Patrick swap hove into view.
 
Everyone should congratulate Anglo for surviving the food and mean streets of Seattle.
I went to personally research the whole toilet-flushing thing. I will publish my ground-breaking findings anon.

It is a pity that Raf didn't write in his private diary that proper LCN DNA protocol wasn't followed and that the lab wasn't certified for that type of analysis. Of course, that would be interpreted as an admission of guilt because everyone knows that contamination is only used by guilty desperate people. Better yet he could have written in his private diary that Meredith needed help with her bra because the clasp was bent and when he had returned home he went straight for the knife and rubbed his finger on it. Novelli would cheer and accept the above as proof of contamination and ask for the next case.

Amanda's appeal has some interesting aspects. At the opening they ask for the case to be dismissed for the reason it has taken too long and yet at the end ask for a new trial.

They seem to accept that the footprints are Amanda's but just not in blood. I find it odd in that the pictures I've seen do not look like they could be matched to anyone.

In general it seems that the lawyers have been reading here ;) and have become a little more direct. They actually mention the slaps to Amanda during the interrogation. They finally seem to realize the importance of the Calunnia conviction.

Does anyone know if the panel at the ISC has been chosen.?
Grinder! How the heck are ya? Good to see you back again. Also great that the Mariners are now on an unstoppable roll!
 
I only just noticed these text messages have surfaced (at PMF apparently). It comes as no surprise to me to find a bunch of undeleted incoming SMSs on her phone. The story that she deleted Patrick's message was always bull ****. The cops did that. That phone should be examined (assuming it's not destroyed first) to see exactly when that message was erased. That will prove the cops were destroying and fabricating evidence long before the Rudy-for-Patrick swap hove into view.
Were you thinking of this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZcpbsoeDZ0
 
I only just noticed these text messages have surfaced (at PMF apparently). It comes as no surprise to me to find a bunch of undeleted incoming SMSs on her phone. The story that she deleted Patrick's message was always bull ****. The cops did that. That phone should be examined (assuming it's not destroyed first) to see exactly when that message was erased. That will prove the cops were destroying and fabricating evidence long before the Rudy-for-Patrick swap hove into view.

The cunning Seattleite preemptively erased Lumumba's incoming SMS text well before the interrogation, leaving the mysterious "See you later" so that hapless Ficara would fall into her trap. Knox even duped Anna Donino to provide the false translation, all as a devious plot to...... well, I'm not sure what, but the starting place is assuming guilt and going from there.

Knox had probably planned this all out when she realized back in Seattle that she could talk her way into a simple noise citation, when it was really an urban riot.
 
Maybe you should be more familiar with the case material. Laura testified that Raffaele cooked for Meredith at the cottage. Amanda and Raffaele both stated long before this knife story that they were at the cottage that morning and Raffaele was cooking pasta when Meredith came throughout the kitchen to check her laundry. There is no indication that any part of Raffaele's story is a lie except the parts that the guilters alter saying that the event occurred at Rafaele's flat or that Meredith's hand was pricked.

Well, maybe I should, but I'll never catch up with you. :D

Curious how you think the incident you refer to relates to what griffinmill was insinuating -- that RS's mention in his prison diary/letters to family about pricking Meredith is an obvious lie told to explain how her DNA got on the knife that belonged to him.

Raffaele's diary Nov 18: The fact that there is Meredithʹs DNA on the kitchen knife is because on one occasion, while we were cooking together, I, while moving around at home [and] handling the knife,pricked her hand, and I apologized at once but she was not hurt [lei non si era fatta niente]. So the only real explanation for that kitchen knife is this one.

The incident you refer to was at the cottage, not at his flat. This is what he wrote two days earlier, when after 11 days in prison he learned from the television in his cell that there was a "double-DNA knife" found in his kitchen drawer:

Raffaele, Nov 16: I saw on TV yesterday evening that the knife that I had at home (the one from the kitchen) has traces of Meredith and Amanda (latent)… I was breathless [mi è salito in cuore in gola] and I also got into a total panic because I thought that Amanda had killed Meredith or that she had at least helped someone kill her [nell’impresa]. But I saw Tiziano today who calmed me down: he told me that the knife could not have been the murder weapon, according to the medical examiner [medico legale], and that it has nothing to do with anything because Amanda could have taken it and carried it from my house to her house since the girls didnʹt have a knife like that one [così], they are causing a commotion for nothing… I feel as if I were living in a nightmare reality show.

So, he did cook at the cottage the day before the murder, and he may or may not have touched MK with one of the cottage knives. And he did write an impossible explanation for something that was, in fact, impossible! I can't fault him much for that, since, as others have pointed out, it's what human beings do when confronted with things that make no sense.
 
I only just noticed these text messages have surfaced (at PMF apparently). It comes as no surprise to me to find a bunch of undeleted incoming SMSs on her phone. The story that she deleted Patrick's message was always bull ****. The cops did that. That phone should be examined (assuming it's not destroyed first) to see exactly when that message was erased. That will prove the cops were destroying and fabricating evidence long before the Rudy-for-Patrick swap hove into view.

If I remember rightly, the phone expert pointed out that some messages had definetly been deleted and that it wasn't possible to exclude the possiblity that the police had deleted them.

Thankfully, he had Comodi on hand to declare that she excludes the possibility, and therefore it was all sorted.

Such a shame that she didn't have Mach on hand to tell her that you cannot make such suppositions on the basis of zero evidence, and that all such suppositions require an expert report.

It's amazing how many suppositions and assumptions people like Mach allow the prosecution to get away with, when reasonable inferences for the defence somehow magically require an stupendous and arbitary amount of consultation with outside experts. It's almost as if such a requirement doesn't actually exist and he/she/they have been making it up all along.
 
Maybe one of our Italian speakers can help with translating this letter from a "whistle blower" in Stefanoni's lab. It makes mention of wearing gloves until they fall off from use - to avoid using new ones - samples kept in the same refrigerator as staff lunches, as well as the protective protocols being reserved for when lawyers or cameras were visiting the lab. Enjoy!

AL PRESIDENTE DEL TRIBUNALE DI PERUGIA
AI PERITI DEL TRIBUNALE DI PERUGIA DOTT.SSA VECCHIOTTI E DOTT. CONTI
AI CONSULENTI DELLE PARTI AL CORRIERE DELL’UMBRIA 20/09/2011
No Protocolli??? Ahi, ahi, ahi ...
In relazione alla lettera a firma del Direttore della Polizia Scientifica e del modo di lavoro usato da loro in tutta Italia, potrebbe interessargli sapere che:
1. La lettera indirizzata alla Corte di Perugia è stata forse tratta dagli atti del convegno a
cui ha partecipato lo stesso autore ad Urbino nel Maggio 2011? Già li dice che “si potrebbe arrivare ad ottenere un profilo di DNA nei casi più complessi dove ancora oggi l’esito dell’analisi è negativo” si, in maniera da ingarbugliarli ancora di più.
2. I numeri di sopralluoghi (“4500”) non possono essere riferiti alla polizia scientifica di Roma (sono troppi), ma nemmeno a tutta la scientifica italiana (sono troppo pochi) e quindi non si capisce a cosa siano riferiti. Ciò non stupisce perché non esistono i programmi informatici per la raccolta ed il conteggio dei dati su tutto il territorio. La raccolta dei dati infatti non è uniforme, manca di un protocollo operativo, e nessuno verifica i dati che arrivano da tutta Italia.
3. Non ci sono modalità uniformi e restrittive nemmeno per la raccolta e la conservazione delle tracce più semplici. Non esistono check list di alcun tipo. Non vengono fatti i controlli incrociati su medesimi campioni, così da verificare l’attendibilità del dato fornito da un laboratorio rispetto a un altro. Su nessun tipo di analisi, non solo per il DNA.
4. Nella missiva il direttore del servizio di Polizia Scientifica ha dichiarato come i laboratori e gli uffici siano dotati di certificati di qualità, sottolineando a testimonianza la presenza di “252 documenti prescrittivi e audit condotti da società specializzate esterne anche di livello Europeo”. Il Direttore forse dimentica (o non sa) che i documenti prescrittivi contengono delle prescrizioni, cioè delle correzioni da fare per avere la certificazione richiesta, perché nelle procedure c’è qualcosa che non va.
5. “La scientifica - ha scritto ancora nella lettera Angeloni - è dotata di un sistema informatico di tracciabilità dei reperti, le apparecchiature tecniche sono all’avanguardia ed il personale ha esperienza pluriennale”. Questa è un’affermazione senza significato, per due motivi: a) i reperti sono tracciati solo quando arrivano a Roma e prima non si sa nulla di loro, nemmeno se sono stati chiusi quando raccolti, o poco prima di essere ricevuti (visto che se aperti non vengono accettati, per non sapere cosa succede prima e scaricarsi ogni responsabilità). Quando sui reperti devono essere fatti più esami (es. residui dello sparo, balistici, biologici, impronte, ecc.) è prassi che si aprano le scatole o i contenitori in cui tutto il materiale è stato confezionato e si proceda, prima che venga fissata la data di inizio delle operazioni, allo “smaltimento casalingo” dei reperti, come se si riferissero a casi diversi. In questo modo è altissima la possibilità di perdere importanti informazioni su reperti che magari qualcuno decide autonomamente di destinare alla analisi balistica piuttosto che ai residui dello sparo.
6. Poi dice “Mai in passato sono stati avanzati rilievi di tale natura, che in questa sede investono l’operato della polizia scientifica”, ma anche questo non è vero. I problemi ci sono sempre quando c’è un confronto, quando ci sono dei consulenti coi quali bisogna confrontarsi anche sul piano scientifico. Infatti quando si inventano delle analisi non standardizzate a livello internazionale (come ad esempio l’analisi col carbonio 14 sui
pizzini più famosi d’Italia), magari valide ma prive di qualunque controllo scientifico, è
chiaro che si può dire quello che si vuole!
7. La Polizia Scientifica della periferia non è dotata di apparecchiature a norma. Basta
pensare al frigo/congelatori in uso: sono quelli alimentari! Gli stessi dispositivi di protezione e di sicurezza non vengono acquistati per mancanza di fondi. Le tute? Si usano solo quando ci sono le telecamere. Le mascherine e le cuffie? Si indossano solo se ci sono periti ed avvocati! I guanti? Non bisogna sprecarli e le raccomandazioni sono di usarli fino a che non si rompono!!
8. La catena di custodia dei reperti (di qualunque genere, si pensi a cosa è successo col caso di unabomber) non è garantita. In più non ci sono buste di sicurezza a sufficienza e scatole per contenere il materiale che si raccoglie quando si fa un sopralluogo. Chiunque può mettere mano ai reperti.
9. La refrigerazione dei reperti non è assicurata, nè tracciata. Spesso infatti, la disorganizzazione e le cattive informazioni che gli specialisti (ma quali??) dispensano col contagocce a chi opera su strada, rendono non corretta la raccolta del reperto stesso che finisce con l’ammuffire. In più i reperti, quando prelevati dalla polizia, sono portati via sempre aperti e poi asciugati in locali non idonei. Non esistono infatti in dotazione ai vari uffici apparecchiature certificate per l’asciugatura dei reperti, che vengono fatti asciugare gli uni vicino agli altri su degli stendini casalinghi nei locali di lavoro.
10.La pulizia di strumenti e superfici per il DNA viene di norma effettuata soltanto con alcool e mai verificata con i bianchi di controllo. I bianchi mancano anche ogni qualvolta si prelevi un campione di DNA ... e non solo.
11.Quando il risultato biologico non è quello sperato, l’amplificazione della traccia (??) viene spinta oltre ogni ragionevole indicazione scientifica e si procede fino a quando non si trova qualcosa (??). Sarà anche per questo che il risultato è sempre la presenza di misti incogniti?
12.Il consulente della procura, durante le operazioni dei periti rileva che il ciclatore non è posto sotto cappa, al contrario di come è nel laboratorio della polizia. Questo non è il posto giusto, perché è altissima la probabilità che ci sia contaminazione se messo sotto una cappa qualsiasi.
13.La strumentazione definita così “altamente specialistica” dal direttore Angeloni è in molti casi priva di qualsiasi contratto di assistenza e, in caso guasto, rimane ferma per mesi e mesi.
14.Il prelievo biologico viene sempre distrutto completamente, senza garantire la ripetibilità dell’accertamento, il più delle volte possibile, come invece avviene in tutti i paesi civili del mondo.
15.Va di moda risolvere i casi freddi. E’ facile attribuendo i profili a persone decedute o facendo diventare utili delle impronte che al momento del fatto erano giudicate non utili.
16.La polizia che si dice scientifica non è dotata di biblioteca adeguata e non fornisce a quanti operano nei diversi settori, la possibilità di informarsi su riviste scientifiche internazionali. Basta vedere quale è la formazione del direttore Angeloni. E’ forse uno scienziato? E’ forse un ricercatore? E’ forse uno specialista nel settore?
17.In definitiva, su nessun argomento esistono direttive chiare che fanno riferimento a modalità di lavoro riconosciute da tutti gli investigatori scientifici a livello mondiale.
Ciliegina sulla torta ... la polizia cosa fa? Premia investigatori e scienziati (che “hanno risolto” a modo loro il caso Kercher con encomi e lodi! Proprio Bravi!!!!)​
 
I think they need to hire some more help. I don't know why they don't start tapping into the constant stream of income that arises from penalties assessed for treaty violations.

Did you know that over 2012 and 2013, the ECtHR levied over 300,000,000 euros of "fines" against nations for human rights violations? Incredibly, 190,000,000 of this total was levied against one nation: Italy. See pp. 56-57 of this: http://www.coe.int/t/dghl/monitoring/execution/Source/Publications/CM_annreport2013_en.pdf

They need to just start charging individual countries additional court fees to help unclog the court system from all of their violations.

Somebody given a tour of the ECtHR and the ecort states, "And this is the Italian section which deals exclusively with rights violations in Italy"
 
Maybe one of our Italian speakers can help with translating this letter from a "whistle blower" in Stefanoni's lab. It makes mention of wearing gloves until they fall off from use - to avoid using new ones - samples kept in the same refrigerator as staff lunches, as well as the protective protocols being reserved for when lawyers or cameras were visiting the lab. Enjoy!


I predict that we will be told our Google translation is all wrong while not being told exactly what the translation is. Wish I knew somebody who spoke Italian.

Of note, I do know a native Dutch speaker and my sister can speak German so I could likely get something in either language translated. Don't expect a whole item translated but a few sentences likely could get translated.
 
Maybe one of our Italian speakers can help with translating this letter from a "whistle blower" in Stefanoni's lab. It makes mention of wearing gloves until they fall off from use - to avoid using new ones - samples kept in the same refrigerator as staff lunches, as well as the protective protocols being reserved for when lawyers or cameras were visiting the lab. Enjoy!


Bill

This letter had been translated and discussed here. Don't ask me to find the translation.
 
The cunning Seattleite preemptively erased Lumumba's incoming SMS text well before the interrogation, leaving the mysterious "See you later" so that hapless Ficara would fall into her trap. Knox even duped Anna Donino to provide the false translation, all as a devious plot to...... well, I'm not sure what, but the starting place is assuming guilt and going from there.

Knox had probably planned this all out when she realized back in Seattle that she could talk her way into a simple noise citation, when it was really an urban riot.
You jest but my stalker, Jackie, actually suggested this in all seriousness in one of those exchanges which explains why he discusses the facts of the case so rarely.
 
Translation.

TO THE PRESIDENT OF THE COURT OF PERUGIA
TO THE EXPERTS OF THE COURT OF PERUGIA DR.VECCHIOTTI AND DR.CONTI
TO THE CONSULTANTS OF THE PARTIES
TO THE CORRIERE DELL'UMBRIA 20/09/2011
No Protocols?? Ouch, ouch, ouch ...
With reference to the letter signed by the Director of the Scientific Police and to the way of working used by them throughout Italy, it may be of interest to you [more meaningful, there is probably a mistake in the original] to know that:
1. The letter addressed to the Court of Perugia was perhaps taken from the proceedings of the conference attended by the author himself in Urbino in May 2011? Already there [in that conference] he says "this could lead to obtain a DNA profile in more complex cases in which still to this day the outcome is negative" yeah right, in such a way as to **** them up even more.
2. The numbers of surrveys ("4500") cannot be referred to the scientific police in Rome (too many), but also not to the entire Italian Scientific Police (too few) and hence you do not understand what they are referred to. This is not surprising because there are no IT programs for the collection and counting of the data on the whole territory. The collection of data is not uniform in fact, it lacks an operational protocol, and no verification of the data arriving from all over Italy is done.
3. There are no uniform and mandatory procedures, not even for the collection and preservation of the most basic traces. There is no checklist of any kind. Cross-checkings are not made on the same samples, so as to verify the reliability of the data provided by a laboratory with respect to another. On any kind of analysis, not just for DNA.
4. In the letter, the Director of the Scientific Police affirmed that laboratories and offices are provided with certificates of quality, pointing out as evidence the presence of "252 regulatory documents and audits conducted by external specialist firms, [some] even of European level." The Director perhaps forgets (or does not know) that the documents contain prescriptive requirements, i.e. the corrections to be made to have the requested certification, because in the [current] procedures there is something wrong.
5. "The scientific [police]- also wrote Angeloni in the letter- is equipped with a computerized traceability of the exhibits, the technical equipment is cutting-edge and the staff has many years of experience." This statement is meaningless, for two reasons: a) the exhibits are traced only when they arrive in Rome and before that you know nothing about them, not even if they were sealed when collected, or [if they were sealed] shortly before being received (because if opened [not sealed] they are not accepted, in order not to know what happens before and discharge all liability). When on the exhibits more than one test must be made (e.g. residues of the shot, ballistic, biological, fingerprints, etc.) it is practice that the boxes or containers in which all the material was packaged are opened and, before the date for beginning the operations is established, one goes on with the "household disposal" [not clear what it is, probably jargon] of the exhibits, as though they were relative to different cases. In this way it is very high the possibility of losing important information about exhibits that maybe someone decides arbitrarily to allocate to the ballistics analysis rather than to that of the residues of the shot.
6. Then he says, "Never in the past remarks of this kind have been raised, which herein attack the work of the scientific police," but even that is not true. The problems are always there when there is a confrontation [contrast], when there are consultants with whom one has to vie also in the scientific domain. In fact, when they [the scientific police] invent analysis not internationally standardized (as for example the analysis with carbon-14 on the most famous pizzini in Italy [pizzini=messages on pieces of paper, probably the author is referring to those of Mafia don Bernardo Provenzano]), perhaps valid but lacking any scientific scrutiny, it is clear that you can say what you want!
7. The Scientific Police of the periphery is not equipped with standardized equipment. Just think of the fridge/freezers in use: they are those used for food! The protective and safety equipments themselves and are not bought for lack of funds. The suits? They are used only when there are TV cameras around. Masks and hoods? You wear them only if there are consultants and lawyers around! The gloves? One must not waste them and the recommendations are of using them until they break up!
8. The chain of custody of evidence (of any kind, think of what happened with the case of Unabomber [the Italian one, unknown to this day]) is not guaranteed. Moreover there are not enough security envelopes and boxes to contain the material that is collected when you make a site visit. Anyone can play around with the exhibits.
9. The refrigeration of the exhibits is not assured, nor traced. Often, indeed, the disorganization and the bad information that the specialists (but what specialists??) trickle down to those who work on the field, make wrong the collection [procedure] of the exhibit itself that ends up moldy. Moreover the exhibits, when picked up by the police, are always taken away open and then dried in unsuitable premises. Indeed certified equipment for drying the exhibits is not supplied to the various bureaux [offices], so they [the exhibits] are allowed to dry near each other on drying racks of the household type in working rooms [practically in the offices].
10.The cleaning of tools and surfaces for DNA [against contamination] is normally carried out only with alcohol and never checked with the white [blank?] control. The white [controls or blank controls] lack even whenever you fetch a DNA sample ... and not just that.
11.When the biological result is not as hoped, the amplification of the trace (??[what trace??]) is pushed beyond any reasonable scientific recommendation and will go on until something (??[what??]) is found. May this be the reason why the result is always the presence of mixed unknown subjects?
12.The consultant of the prosecution [Stefanoni], during the operations of the [independent] experts points out that the cycler is not under the extractor fan, as opposed to how it is in the police lab. This [the one in the police lab] is not the right place, because the probability is very high that there is contamination if [the cycler] is placed under an extractor fan whatsoever [e.g. not specialistic].
13.The instrumentation defined as "highly specialized" by the director Angeloni is in many cases without any service contract and, in case of failure, left idle for months and months.
14.The biological sample is always completely destroyed, without ensuring the repeatability of the test, which would be possible most of the times, as it is the case in all civilized countries of the world.
15.It is fashionable to solve cold cases. It is easy [to do that by] assigning [DNA] profiles to deceased people or by classifying as useful fingerprints that had been judged useless at the time of the fact [crime].
16.The police which qualify itself as scientific is not equipped with an adequate library and does not provide for those who work in the various sectors, the possibility of obtaining information on international scientific journals. Just look at what is the formation of the Director Angeloni. Is he perhaps a scientist? Is he perhaps a researcher? Is he perhaps a specialist of the sector?
17.In short, on no topic there are clear guidelines which take as reference the working methods recognized by all scientific investigators worldwide.
The icing on the cake ... What does the police do? They give awards to the investigators and scientists (who have "solved" in their own way the Kercher case) with accolades and praises! Just Bravi!! [parentheses repositioned to what probably is the correct position]
roteoctober

Posts: 1927
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:01 pm
Location: Turin - Italy
 
Translation.

TO THE PRESIDENT OF THE COURT OF PERUGIA
TO THE EXPERTS OF THE COURT OF PERUGIA DR.VECCHIOTTI AND DR.CONTI
TO THE CONSULTANTS OF THE PARTIES
TO THE CORRIERE DELL'UMBRIA 20/09/2011
No Protocols?? Ouch, ouch, ouch ...
With reference to the letter signed by the Director of the Scientific Police and to the way of working used by them throughout Italy, it may be of interest to you [more meaningful, there is probably a mistake in the original] to know that:
1. The letter addressed to the Court of Perugia was perhaps taken from the proceedings of the conference attended by the author himself in Urbino in May 2011? Already there [in that conference] he says "this could lead to obtain a DNA profile in more complex cases in which still to this day the outcome is negative" yeah right, in such a way as to **** them up even more.
2. The numbers of surrveys ("4500") cannot be referred to the scientific police in Rome (too many), but also not to the entire Italian Scientific Police (too few) and hence you do not understand what they are referred to. This is not surprising because there are no IT programs for the collection and counting of the data on the whole territory. The collection of data is not uniform in fact, it lacks an operational protocol, and no verification of the data arriving from all over Italy is done.
3. There are no uniform and mandatory procedures, not even for the collection and preservation of the most basic traces. There is no checklist of any kind. Cross-checkings are not made on the same samples, so as to verify the reliability of the data provided by a laboratory with respect to another. On any kind of analysis, not just for DNA.
4. In the letter, the Director of the Scientific Police affirmed that laboratories and offices are provided with certificates of quality, pointing out as evidence the presence of "252 regulatory documents and audits conducted by external specialist firms, [some] even of European level." The Director perhaps forgets (or does not know) that the documents contain prescriptive requirements, i.e. the corrections to be made to have the requested certification, because in the [current] procedures there is something wrong.
5. "The scientific [police]- also wrote Angeloni in the letter- is equipped with a computerized traceability of the exhibits, the technical equipment is cutting-edge and the staff has many years of experience." This statement is meaningless, for two reasons: a) the exhibits are traced only when they arrive in Rome and before that you know nothing about them, not even if they were sealed when collected, or [if they were sealed] shortly before being received (because if opened [not sealed] they are not accepted, in order not to know what happens before and discharge all liability). When on the exhibits more than one test must be made (e.g. residues of the shot, ballistic, biological, fingerprints, etc.) it is practice that the boxes or containers in which all the material was packaged are opened and, before the date for beginning the operations is established, one goes on with the "household disposal" [not clear what it is, probably jargon] of the exhibits, as though they were relative to different cases. In this way it is very high the possibility of losing important information about exhibits that maybe someone decides arbitrarily to allocate to the ballistics analysis rather than to that of the residues of the shot.
6. Then he says, "Never in the past remarks of this kind have been raised, which herein attack the work of the scientific police," but even that is not true. The problems are always there when there is a confrontation [contrast], when there are consultants with whom one has to vie also in the scientific domain. In fact, when they [the scientific police] invent analysis not internationally standardized (as for example the analysis with carbon-14 on the most famous pizzini in Italy [pizzini=messages on pieces of paper, probably the author is referring to those of Mafia don Bernardo Provenzano]), perhaps valid but lacking any scientific scrutiny, it is clear that you can say what you want!
7. The Scientific Police of the periphery is not equipped with standardized equipment. Just think of the fridge/freezers in use: they are those used for food! The protective and safety equipments themselves and are not bought for lack of funds. The suits? They are used only when there are TV cameras around. Masks and hoods? You wear them only if there are consultants and lawyers around! The gloves? One must not waste them and the recommendations are of using them until they break up!
8. The chain of custody of evidence (of any kind, think of what happened with the case of Unabomber [the Italian one, unknown to this day]) is not guaranteed. Moreover there are not enough security envelopes and boxes to contain the material that is collected when you make a site visit. Anyone can play around with the exhibits.
9. The refrigeration of the exhibits is not assured, nor traced. Often, indeed, the disorganization and the bad information that the specialists (but what specialists??) trickle down to those who work on the field, make wrong the collection [procedure] of the exhibit itself that ends up moldy. Moreover the exhibits, when picked up by the police, are always taken away open and then dried in unsuitable premises. Indeed certified equipment for drying the exhibits is not supplied to the various bureaux [offices], so they [the exhibits] are allowed to dry near each other on drying racks of the household type in working rooms [practically in the offices].
10.The cleaning of tools and surfaces for DNA [against contamination] is normally carried out only with alcohol and never checked with the white [blank?] control. The white [controls or blank controls] lack even whenever you fetch a DNA sample ... and not just that.
11.When the biological result is not as hoped, the amplification of the trace (??[what trace??]) is pushed beyond any reasonable scientific recommendation and will go on until something (??[what??]) is found. May this be the reason why the result is always the presence of mixed unknown subjects?
12.The consultant of the prosecution [Stefanoni], during the operations of the [independent] experts points out that the cycler is not under the extractor fan, as opposed to how it is in the police lab. This [the one in the police lab] is not the right place, because the probability is very high that there is contamination if [the cycler] is placed under an extractor fan whatsoever [e.g. not specialistic].
13.The instrumentation defined as "highly specialized" by the director Angeloni is in many cases without any service contract and, in case of failure, left idle for months and months.
14.The biological sample is always completely destroyed, without ensuring the repeatability of the test, which would be possible most of the times, as it is the case in all civilized countries of the world.
15.It is fashionable to solve cold cases. It is easy [to do that by] assigning [DNA] profiles to deceased people or by classifying as useful fingerprints that had been judged useless at the time of the fact [crime].
16.The police which qualify itself as scientific is not equipped with an adequate library and does not provide for those who work in the various sectors, the possibility of obtaining information on international scientific journals. Just look at what is the formation of the Director Angeloni. Is he perhaps a scientist? Is he perhaps a researcher? Is he perhaps a specialist of the sector?
17.In short, on no topic there are clear guidelines which take as reference the working methods recognized by all scientific investigators worldwide.
The icing on the cake ... What does the police do? They give awards to the investigators and scientists (who have "solved" in their own way the Kercher case) with accolades and praises! Just Bravi!! [parentheses repositioned to what probably is the correct position]
roteoctober

Posts: 1927
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:01 pm
Location: Turin - Italy

Thank you for the translation. . . . .Reminds me of the hunt for the Phantom of Heilbronn
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_of_Heilbronn
I think the two arguments can be used together
 
anglolawyer said:
I only just noticed these text messages have surfaced (at PMF apparently). It comes as no surprise to me to find a bunch of undeleted incoming SMSs on her phone. The story that she deleted Patrick's message was always bull ****. The cops did that. That phone should be examined (assuming it's not destroyed first) to see exactly when that message was erased. That will prove the cops were destroying and fabricating evidence long before the Rudy-for-Patrick swap hove into view.

Anglo - I've printed out the link and tried to line up outgoing and incoming texts. I quick look shows that there are days where incoming messages seem not to be deleted and then gaps where there are none. From 10.14.07 to 10.20 there are about 25 but none from 10.20 to 10.31 when there is one. Then done until 11.6 when a message comes in from West Seattle. The outgoing messages do not show similar gaps.

Perhaps someone can explain why some messages were found on the SIM while most were in the phone memory. Also, why is it Raffael/Jason?

Is the drug dealer there?
 
WOW, I can't believe we are now on part 10. Is this the longest thread on JREF???
 
Anglo - I've printed out the link and tried to line up outgoing and incoming texts. I quick look shows that there are days where incoming messages seem not to be deleted and then gaps where there are none. From 10.14.07 to 10.20 there are about 25 but none from 10.20 to 10.31 when there is one. Then done until 11.6 when a message comes in from West Seattle. The outgoing messages do not show similar gaps.

Perhaps someone can explain why some messages were found on the SIM while most were in the phone memory. Also, why is it Raffael/Jason?

Is the drug dealer there?

These pages need to be matchec up with the carriers records to see whether there is a bunch of deleted texts. Lumumba's text to her shows up in those records but not on the phone. How unusual is that?
 
These pages need to be matchec up with the carriers records to see whether there is a bunch of deleted texts. Lumumba's text to her shows up in those records but not on the phone. How unusual is that?

I really don't believe you will ever be able to prove this point Anglo even though your argument is reasonable. I'm pretty sure that messages can be deleted out of order and selectively. Not unless the phone kept track exactly when the text messages were deleted would you be able to prove it.
 
Anglo - I've printed out the link and tried to line up outgoing and incoming texts. I quick look shows that there are days where incoming messages seem not to be deleted and then gaps where there are none. From 10.14.07 to 10.20 there are about 25 but none from 10.20 to 10.31 when there is one. Then done until 11.6 when a message comes in from West Seattle. The outgoing messages do not show similar gaps.

Perhaps someone can explain why some messages were found on the SIM while most were in the phone memory. Also, why is it Raffael/Jason?

Is the drug dealer there?

We haven't been able to find the so called drug dealer. There are only a couple of unidentified calls and people have been trying to fill in the holes.
 
Raffaele, Nov 16: I saw on TV yesterday evening that the knife that I had at home (the one from the kitchen) has traces of Meredith and Amanda (latent)… I was breathless [mi è salito in cuore in gola] and I also got into a total panic because I thought that Amanda had killed Meredith or that she had at least helped someone kill her [nell’impresa]. But I saw Tiziano today who calmed me down: he told me that the knife could not have been the murder weapon, according to the medical examiner [medico legale], and that it has nothing to do with anything because Amanda could have taken it and carried it from my house to her house since the girls didnʹt have a knife like that one [così], they are causing a commotion for nothing… I feel as if I were living in a nightmare reality show.

So, he did cook at the cottage the day before the murder, and he may or may not have touched MK with one of the cottage knives. And he did write an impossible explanation for something that was, in fact, impossible! I can't fault him much for that, since, as others have pointed out, it's what human beings do when confronted with things that make no sense.

It's the hilited part that makes better sense of it, that was from Raffaele's previous entry. He's sitting in solitary with nothing better to think of than just how Meredith's DNA could have gotten on his kitchen knife and his first thought was maybe Amanda was involved but Tiziano suggested to him that perhaps the knife had been borrowed and was at the cottage. Having cooked with Meredith there shortly before the murder it would seem that 'must' be the explanation, that he'd picked up that knife while cooking and brushed her with it. It's not that unreasonable a scenario.
 
It's the hilited part that makes better sense of it, that was from Raffaele's previous entry. He's sitting in solitary with nothing better to think of than just how Meredith's DNA could have gotten on his kitchen knife and his first thought was maybe Amanda was involved but Tiziano suggested to him that perhaps the knife had been borrowed and was at the cottage. Having cooked with Meredith there shortly before the murder it would seem that 'must' be the explanation, that he'd picked up that knife while cooking and brushed her with it. It's not that unreasonable a scenario.

Assuming though that the Italian police had followed proper procedures and the DNA was really there, most likely would be second hand from Amanda to the knife. That actually was my first thought when I heard about the knife evidence.
 
Assuming though that the Italian police had followed proper procedures and the DNA was really there, most likely would be second hand from Amanda to the knife. That actually was my first thought when I heard about the knife evidence.

I agree, but Raffaele has no reason to know about secondary transfer.

Also it has been entirely lost by some that when Raffaele was doing his speculating it was under the impression the knife couldn't have been used in the murder like Tiziano told him--as any rational being would realize from the fact it tested negative for blood and not only didn't match the wounds it couldn't have made one of them according to the prosecution foresnics expert himself, Professor Bacci, who also said he understood why others would eliminate the other puncture wound as a possibility as well but he still thought there was maybe some way if it was at the perfect angle or they were moving just right or somesuch:

Massei PMF 120-1 said:
He also addressed the question of the kind of knife that could have caused the injuries observed and, given that it would have to have been a sharp instrument with a cutting edge, he answered questions concerning the compatibility with the knife that was seized and shown as Exhibit 36 in the following terms:

This knife was a kitchen knife with a very voluminous blade. In relation to the biggest wound the compatibility was deemed to exist on the grounds that although he was aware of the arguments against such an assessment, it was not possible to be certain in terms of attribution or exclusion "because the lesività [wounding phenomenon+ is dependent on too many factors: the moment < in which the events takes place, the force that the sharp/cutting object has, movements of the victim, of the perpetrators, their physical positions"(page 12, transcripts). On this specific point, he concluded substantial compatibility.

He ruled out that the knife (Exhibit 36) could have caused the wound on the opposite side (still inflicted on the neck but on the right side) because of the size of the wound (1 cm and a half with a depth of 4 cm) and the fact that at 4 cm from the tip the width of the blade of the knife is about 3 cm and therefore much larger than the width of the wound (as indicated, 1.5cm).


However not ever finding the actual murder knife or any real physical evidence of Amanda and Raffaele being involved they took the knife into court anyway and pretended it was the murder weapon. These diary entries are from the very beginning of the case, the first month or so of his incarceration and the knife was just one more item in a string of false evidence the police were telling the press and courts about like the Harry Potter book being at the cottage (there was another one at Raffaele just like Amanda said--she had more than one), the 'clear cut CCTV camera shot' and Amanda's sweatshirt not being found (it was on her bed as could be seen in the crime scene videos) as well as all the nonsense about the washing machine, Argentinians etc ad absurdum.
 
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He is lucky that he is NOT suggestible. If he was then he very well might have come to believe that he and/or Amanda did commit the murder. One can be easily convinced and create false memories in their mind.

I don't think people who say that they are abducted by aliens are necessarily lying. Many really believe it.
 
However not ever finding the actual murder knife or any real physical evidence of Amanda and Raffaele being involved they took the knife into court anyway and pretended it was the murder weapon. These diary entries are from the very beginning of the case, the first month or so of his incarceration and the knife was just one more item in a string of false evidence the police were telling the press and courts about like the Harry Potter book being at the cottage (there was another one at Raffaele just like Amanda said--she had more than one), the 'clear cut CCTV camera shot' and Amanda's sweatshirt not being found (it was on her bed as could be seen in the crime scene videos) as well as all the nonsense about the washing machine, Argentinians etc ad absurdum.

The impression left with this, "all the other evidence," is what matters, not the factuality of it. Witness the latest cocaine-factoid....

Amanda once smoked a joint with someone who knew someone who stabbed someone else. Add this to Machiavelli's, "it's compatible with," meaning that suggesting that women who are friendly with cocaine dealers sleep with the dealer.... well, maybe not, but the suggestion that this might happen is "compatible with" what they are alleging happened to Knox....

..... one's head spins.

But the issue is this - what's important is the impression left; especially the impression that there is, "all the other evidence."

Machiavelli claims to know for sure that a drug dealer was found in Amanda's contacts list on her mobile, and instead of showing us the list or telling us who this might be, Machiavelli maintains that all this is consistent with a party-girl who trades sex for drugs.....

...... okay, my head's spinning again.

Now that the SMS-text messages are in public view, cannot ANYONE point to ANYTHING which satisfies the word "evidence", as in "all the other evidence"?

I guess it's the impression left that is important.
 
I think they need to hire some more help. I don't know why they don't start tapping into the constant stream of income that arises from penalties assessed for treaty violations.

Did you know that over 2012 and 2013, the ECtHR levied over 300,000,000 euros of "fines" against nations for human rights violations? Incredibly, 190,000,000 of this total was levied against one nation: Italy. See pp. 56-57 of this: http://www.coe.int/t/dghl/monitoring/execution/Source/Publications/CM_annreport2013_en.pdf

They need to just start charging individual countries additional court fees to help unclog the court system from all of their violations.
I know most member countries are critical of the ECHR for varying reason, one of those criticism is the backlog of cases, I believe ECHR recently got their backlog of cases down to 100K which is interesting given one of the main criticism of the Italian judicial system is the length of time it takes to process cases.

That being said, as you indicated Amanda’s appeal submission rightly in my opinion has remained private although your predictions of its possible contents appear consistent with what has been stated over the years; for sure this is not the first of its kind to be raised against Italy, I wonder what the percentage of (like) cases have been won against Italy.

I do believe over time ECHR will be reformed, not sure how.
 
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He is lucky that he is NOT suggestible. If he was then he very well might have come to believe that he and/or Amanda did commit the murder. One can be easily convinced and create false memories in their mind.

I don't think people who say that they are abducted by aliens are necessarily lying. Many really believe it.

Yes to the highlighted sentence. As has been discussed here many times (even in the short while since I showed up) it's a simple thing to plant a false memory.

Ironic that some of the original research in this field was done right here at the University of Washington, where Amanda just earned a degree.

Research is beginning to give us an understanding of how false memories of complete, emotional and self-participatory experiences are created in adults. First, there are social demands on individuals to remember; for instance, researchers exert some pressure on participants in a study to come up with memories. Second, memory construction by imagining events can be explicitly encouraged when people are having trouble remembering. And, finally, individuals can be encouraged not to think about whether their constructions are real or not.
That was published in 1997.

Sounds like a certain interrogation in Perugia to me.
 
So, he did cook at the cottage the day before the murder, and he may or may not have touched MK with one of the cottage knives. And he did write an impossible explanation for something that was, in fact, impossible! I can't fault him much for that, since, as others have pointed out, it's what human beings do when confronted with things that make no sense.



You cannot distinguish the difference between the statement that is purported to be a lie and what I propose is a fact by looking only at the nuances of the translated text. The last time I looked at this in detail I compared the phrases in the original Italian and looked for similar usage patterns in other writings. But there is a much easier way to look at this: Raffaele has the choice of saying that this event occured at the cottage or in his own home. One refers to a real event that was witnessed. The other is possibly provably a lie. So, why would Raffaele when essentially writing to himself choose the lie.
 
Looking at the text message fax I notice it's only 7 of 35 pages transmitted to Profazio. I also see what look to me like trial file page numbers 2888-2894 applied by the sort of stamping machine I use when preparing court bundles. It would be nice to have the trial file index, the complete trial file itself and the rest of the fax which should not be assumed to be a complete record of what turned up on her phone.
 
If I remember rightly, the phone expert pointed out that some messages had definetly been deleted and that it wasn't possible to exclude the possiblity that the police had deleted them.

Thankfully, he had Comodi on hand to declare that she excludes the possibility, and therefore it was all sorted.

Such a shame that she didn't have Mach on hand to tell her that you cannot make such suppositions on the basis of zero evidence, and that all such suppositions require an expert report.

It's amazing how many suppositions and assumptions people like Mach allow the prosecution to get away with, when reasonable inferences for the defence somehow magically require an stupendous and arbitary amount of consultation with outside experts. It's almost as if such a requirement doesn't actually exist and he/she/they have been making it up all along.

You just need to learn a bit of the rules, Skind. This applies to all your "logical" argumentations, including the last one where you were attributing to me strange statements and drawing out some strange inference.
You just need to understand "accusation versus defence" is not the only principle of a trial. There is a set of principles, or rules and a procedure, the players know in advance, and their moves are in function of this pre-existing set; like in a sport game the meaning of each "move" (or "lack" of move) is to be read through the lenses of the principles and rules of what you are playing. The rules and techniques determine what a player is supposed to do, what needs to do if he aims to a certain goal or follow a certain strategy. You need to understand a little of the rules if you want to understand when a player is having a weak game or a strong one.
 
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