Moderated Iron sun with Aether batteries...

Status
Not open for further replies.
Partially? How exactly do you figure an EM field and gravity well of *that magnitude* aren't going to COMPLETELY unmix the iron from the hydrogen?

An EM field of what magnitude, Michael? You've never indicated what you think the EM field is, either in terms of strength or configuration.

You point to a bit of convection on the surface of an *INCREDIBLY* light surface and claim that process is going to keep them mixed together in spite of the sun's strong magnetic fields?

Wow. It's like you've suddenly discovered the standard model explanation for why sunspots are cold.

Gravity alone would cause the lead to separate from the hydrogen.

Would it? Crunch the numbers, Michael.

Oh, that's right, you can't.

I now understand a lot more about the Achilles heel of the SSM.

No, Michael, you really don't. You'd need to understand physics first, and you just aren't at that stage yet. And you aren't even moving in that direction.

Sooner or later that "truth" will prevail and your mathematical oversimplifications will be seen for what they are.

This is hilarious. A mathematical model is an oversimplification. But a model with no math is... what, exactly?

I'm not sure exactly when that's going to happen, but with SDO, that time is certainly close IMO.

You have been promoting your delusions for years. I have little doubt that years from now, after SDO has helped refine the standard model, you will still be promoting your delusions. The fact that SDO won't actually support those delusions will have been forgotten, or excuses for its inadequacy will be invented.

Sooner or later that will begin to change, and IMO that time is now.

Repent, sinners, for doomsday is nigh!

It's not going to happen, Michael. And just like any cultist, you'll find excuses for why the promised day never arrived.

SDO represents a unique opportunity to test every facet of the SSM, and it's not going to pass the observational test IMO.

Your opinion on matters of physics is pretty reliably wrong.
 
Catching up again, I see that:

a) You're still busily looking at limb images without having thought about the geometry. You still don't know the difference between looking at a cross-section-slice and looking along a limb. I gave you the world's easiest-to-use diagram and you ignored it entirely. Amazing.

I did not ignore it Ben.

b) You're still busily interpreting limb images as though "3000 km (actually 80,000km) of transparent Si/Ne plasma" was a sensible option---and you dropped any pretense of being interested in whether this is physically possible. Unbelievable.

I don't even understand how you get these ideas. I am certainly still interested, and I explained *WHY* it was more transparent than you realize, specifically the ionization states involved. Once you decided to judge the opacity based on thermodynamic aspects I could not yet answer, there wasn't much more to say. You certainly did help me clarify exact ionization states, if only for my own benefit. That 94A issue isn't dead yet, and I'm still trying to figure out a way to use that information to help me come up with something more useful to work with, but I'm "guessing" at this point, and IMO Birkeland's a better "guesser" when it comes to the electrical parameters of his own cathode solar model.

c) You've still devoted exactly zero attention, in 30 pages, to the most basic known-for-400-years facts about the Sun: that its visible light spectrum is that of a 6000K blackbody with atomic and molecular absorption lines. Bizarre.

Again, I didn't ever deny that the sun has BB characteristics with absorption lines and emission lines (like we see in SERTS). You simply expect me to buy the idea you can oversimplify a physics problem by making up some concept about how all the elements will stay mixed to some light convecting surface. That's simply not tenable IMO. Sure the sun has *LOTS* of lines ben, but not all of them of consistent with a 6000K single surface. Those iron line emissions for instance have nothing at all to do with your 6000K photosphere. You've just grossly oversimplified the physics of the sun to make it easier to work with mathematically. I understand that need to quantify, but you can't do that at the expense of physics! Elements will tend to mass separate in these conditions and a little convection in "lighter than air" plasma isn't going to stop that separation process.

d) You went from "I've won, the SDO green stripe proves it" to "the data is confusing because I don't know how to scale and overlay wavelengths" to "forget about the raw data,

No, actually I looked at all the raw data I could personaly find too, but there aren't any FITS files to play with at the moment.

the only thing that matters is difference images"

The only thing that matters to "ME" at this point are the RD images. That is pretty much the next step in my own solar falsification process, and that is something which could falsify at least major parts the solar model on my website, although it wouldn't falsify a cathode solar model entirely, nor even a solid surface model. It would however tell me a lot about what I'm looking at in terms of whether I have personally and accurately interpreted that data correctly. I need to know.

---and you did so without a hint of awareness or contrition. Would it kill you to say "sorry I was so abusive to everyone who disputed my initial SDO interpretation, I learned something and I want to do it better next time"? Shameless.

Um ben, who exactly would you say I was 'abusive" to other than GM? I admit I've lost my patience with him, but I honestly don't think I've been 'abusive" to anyone else in particular. If anything I may have come across abusive to the SSM, but it's certainly not personal IMO.

I have not tried to hide from the fact that my interpretations are open to scrutiny and are based upon assumptions I cannot yet support. I don't know of any scientific theory that doesn't rely upon some assumptions, including your assumption that elements stay mixed.

About all I can say ben is I hear you, I simply do not agree with you. I've followed too many mass flow patterns up and through the surface of the photosphere. I've seen too much evidence suggesting that your "photosphere" is not actually "opaque".

What I need to know next is whether the iron lines are visible under or only above the surface of the photosphere. The SSM disallows any iron lines to exist under about 3.5 meters. You don't have even a single pixel to work with under the surface of the photosphere in these wavelengths. If I can pull off even a couple of pixels under that point, your whole opacity claim is falsified, but I need an RD image to find out if that will work to falsify your theory, and to find out which parts of my theory hold up to scrutiny. It's a next logical step, but it's not the only logical one.
 
Last edited:
Partially? How exactly do you figure an EM field and gravity well of *that magnitude* aren't going to COMPLETELY unmix the iron from the hydrogen? You point to a bit of convection on the surface of an *INCREDIBLY* light surface and claim that process is going to keep them mixed together in spite of the sun's strong magnetic fields? Gravity alone would cause the lead to separate from the hydrogen.

Did you read my post? Read it again. I don't "figure", I calculate. You are welcome to find an error in the mainstream calculations. "I don't believe it because it sounds wrong and when I run an intuitive model in my head it gets a different answer" does not count as an error. It's a diffusion situation, not a bricks-sinking-in-the-ocean situation, and the diffusion rates are small. Go to Hansen & Kawaler and find the mistake in their diffusion-rate calculations---if you're can't do that, you're just guessing. I can't argue with guesswork, it's a waste of time.

Magnetic field? Magnetic fields suppress diffusion, Michael, they don't enhance it. Adding in the magnetic field, if it has any effect at all, slows down any demixing.
 
I did not ignore it Ben.

Sure you did; I still see you claiming that the Standard Solar Model can't possibly produce limb features X, Y, or Z---claims of exactly the same sort you would have known were wrong if you'd thought about the geometry. You know how you could convince me that you've thought about the geometry? MAKE A DIAGRAM.

I don't even understand how you get these ideas. I am certainly still interested, and I explained *WHY* it was more transparent than you realize, specifically the ionization states involved.

Sure, you invented a form of unobtanium where the ionization states are exactly what you want them to be. Then you guess (without calculation) that this ionization state distribution is actually transparent. (Remember, we had already proven that low-ionization-states are highly absorbing, we never got as far as evaluating the high ionization states, because you never knew any details about them.) Then you guess that this state distribution is possible at all (i.e. obeys thermodynamics). Then you guess (without calculation) that these are in fact the conditions that hold in uppermost 3000 km of the Sun. That's exactly where we were thirty pages ago.

I don't see any progress since then, please point me to the post with the calculations in it if I missed it. Don't point me to more posts where you assert that the Sun's transparency is sufficient evidence for the unobtanium state---I got plenty of those earlier. What's new on the actual laws-of-physics-applied-to-neon front?

Those iron line emissions for instance have nothing at all to do with your 6000K photosphere.

I agree; in the SSM, they're coming from above it. In your model, there's a 2000K iron layer---definitely not emitting 6000K blackbody light---then a 2,000,000K (?) Ne/Si unobtanium layer---definitely not emitting 6000K blackbody light---then a tenuous, hot chromosphere and corona, also not emitting 6000K blackbody light. Where's the 6000K blackbody emission coming from, Michael?
 
Zig, I"m *NOT* brushing it under the rug. The only published thing I"m attached to is the term "rigid", not "solid". I can't be sure that the thermodynamics will work out in favor of a "solid' surface.

I'm still trying to pin down a depth of the "rigid features" I see in the MDI images, and other types of imagery.

To be honest Zig, those GIF's were very interesting and I appreciated you pointing them out for me. I'm personally willing to accept them as calibrated or uncalibrated images because either way, they falsify *your* solar model. :)
Perhaps you could help clear things up for the lurkers if you could provide a quote from Birkeland where he says the sun has a rigid surface or layer. A sentence or paragraph ought to do it, I don't want to attempt to infer it from reading a whole book.
 
Michael, when you call a 200000km deep convection zone a "light convecting surface", which definition of "light" are you using?
 
Perhaps you could help clear things up for the lurkers if you could provide a quote from Birkeland where he says the sun has a rigid surface or layer. A sentence or paragraph ought to do it, I don't want to attempt to infer it from reading a whole book.


He will not. He might tell you to read a book. He might link a picture of a little hollow brass ball. But he will not provide anything that shows where Kristian Birkeland proposed a solar model with a solid/rigid iron/metal surface. Michael is making that up from scratch, then in the most dishonest and despicable way, blaming Birkeland for his own lack of qualification to understand science at any level. When he claims he is presenting Birkeland's model, it is a lie.
 
This is hilarious. A mathematical model is an oversimplification. But a model with no math is... what, exactly?

MM chopping up the tennis ball with scissors, dropping it over the net, and claiming a point?

Sorry. In a frivolous mood :boxedin:
 
[...]
Michael Mozina said:
Sooner or later that "truth" will prevail and your mathematical oversimplifications will be seen for what they are.
This is hilarious. A mathematical model is an oversimplification. But a model with no math is... what, exactly?

[...]
A. An empirical observation

B. An "empirical" observation

C. An empirical "observation"

D. An "empirical observation"

E. Obviously correct (just look at the flying stuff green band in the data image!)

F. Proven by visual inspection of non-science images

G. (roll your own)
 
Where do you get that idea? The is no violation of anything. There is simply kinetic energy being turned into electrical current by means of induction, electrical current released by fission/fusion processes and neutron decay processes. How is that a violation of conservation of energy?

Huh?
"Electrical current released by fission/fusion processes and neutron decay processes"?
And
Fission processes? What exactly do you think is fissioning? How is this consistent with the first law of thermodynamics (let alone the second)? And where are the associated antineutrinos?
 
Perhaps you could help clear things up for the lurkers if you could provide a quote from Birkeland where he says the sun has a rigid surface or layer. A sentence or paragraph ought to do it, I don't want to attempt to infer it from reading a whole book.

http://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/docs/00/25/55/64/PDF/ajp-jp4199707C408.pdf

The lurkers should understand that a Birkeland solar model is not dependent upon a solid surface, rather it is an electrically oriented solar model where the sun acts as a "cathode" in space, and discharges to the heliosphere. A Birkeland solar model is not limited to either a solid or a plasma cathode. It could be applied to either a solid surface model, or a plasma cathode model. What makes the solar model on my website a "Birkeland solar model" is not the idea it has a solid crust, but rather it is due to the theory that the sun acts a cathode in an electrical process with the heliosphere. It's not about the sun being a solid or a plasma, it's about "current flow" and the sun discharging to the heliosphere. It's the "Electric Universe" aspect his solar theory that makes it a "Birkeland solar model", not the solid surface idea.
 
Last edited:
He will not. He might tell you to read a book. He might link a picture of a little hollow brass ball. But he will not provide anything that shows where Kristian Birkeland proposed a solar model with a solid/rigid iron/metal surface. Michael is making that up from scratch, then in the most dishonest and despicable way, blaming Birkeland for his own lack of qualification to understand science at any level. When he claims he is presenting Birkeland's model, it is a lie.

How many times have you called me a liar now oh defender of civil discourse? It is a "lie" that a Birkeland solar model is limited to a solid surface solar model. *ANY* "cathode in space" solar model would technically be a "Birkeland solar model."

I love how you pretend to defend his good name in this post, but you called him a "Bozo" just yesterday. So is he a clueless Bozo, or someone you're actually defending?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5918853&postcount=3186
 
Last edited:
How many times have you called me a liar now oh defender of civil discourse? It is a "lie" that a Birkeland solar model is limited to a solid surface solar model. *ANY* "cathode in space" solar model would technically be a "Birkeland solar model."

I love how you pretend to defend his good name in this post, but you called him a "Bozo" just yesterday. So is he a Bozo, or someone you're defending?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5918853&postcount=3186


Your argument that you're presenting Birkeland's solar model is a lie. Reminding you and the other readers when you're doing it is not uncivil. You've been asked to point out his solar model and in all these years you've never been able to do it. I've tried to find his solar model. Tim Thompson tried a few pages ago in this thread. None of us has ever found his solar model. And no, putting a brass ball on a stick and shoving an electromagnet inside does not constitute a solar model. It looks like I can add "solar model" to the list of terms you don't understand.

And yes, he was a Bozo in some regards. As much as you want to make him out to be a hero, he had some notions about astrophysics that have turned out to be very silly. Saturn's rings aren't glowing electrons. And the Sun doesn't spew electrons into space which coalesce into planets.

The terms Michael uses, the definitions of which he clearly does not understand include, but are not limited to:

  • photosphere
  • chromosphere
  • opaque
  • limb darkening
  • idiosyncratic
  • empirical
  • solar model
We know if of Michael's arguments contain any of these terms, we can accept them as meaningless gibberish, because although lord knows how hard we've tried to help him understand this stuff, it has been a near futile effort.

Michael, please narrow your arguments to eliminate the use of those words and phrases. And as we find more terms which you don't understand, we can add them to the list and you can cease using them. It will make this whole communication thing much better for everyone if we prune the parts of your arguments that are causing confusion.​

Now if you're done with your hissy fit, maybe you can get around to this...

Now that I finally understand how to go about destroying mainstream theory, I'll start working on it. I think *THAT* little project might even motivate me to do a little math.

:dl:
 
Your argument that you're presenting Birkeland's solar model is a lie.

Your claim that *ANY* cathode solar model is *NOT* a Birkeland solar model is a lie. Your claim to defend his good name is a lie. The only reason you mention him is so you can call me a liar. You are the single "least civil" individual in the whole of cyberspace. Birkeland's solar model relates to a "cathode in space". It is not related to the nature of the cathode.
 
Your claim that *ANY* cathode solar model is *NOT* a Birkeland solar model is a lie. Your claim to defend his good name is a lie. The only reason you mention him is so you can call me a liar. You are the single "least civil" individual in the whole of cyberspace. Birkeland's solar model relates to a "cathode in space". It is not related to the nature of the cathode.


Now if you're done with your tantrum, maybe you can get around to this...

Now that I finally understand how to go about destroying mainstream theory, I'll start working on it. I think *THAT* little project might even motivate me to do a little math.

:dl:
 
Now if you're done with your tantrum,

Eh? My tantrum? You are the one that can't post a single post that doesn't include the term liar, crackpot, fraud or crank or include that stupid laughing dog. You haven't stopped throwing a tantrum yet. You've been nothing but tantrum. You're also a complete hypocrite and deceitful as can be. Birkeland's solar model is *NOT* limited to a solid surface cathode model. What makes it a "Birkeland solar model" are the electrical aspects of his theories, not the existence of a crust. You've done nothing but distort the truth since you and I began conversing and you've been anything *BUT* civil oh defender of civility.
 
Last edited:
http://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/docs/00/25/55/64/PDF/ajp-jp4199707C408.pdf

The lurkers should understand that a Birkeland solar model is not dependent upon a solid surface, rather it is an electrically oriented solar model where the sun acts as a "cathode" in space, and discharges to the heliosphere. A Birkeland solar model is not limited to either a solid or a plasma cathode. It could be applied to either a solid surface model, or a plasma cathode model. What makes the solar model on my website a "Birkeland solar model" is not the idea it has a solid crust, but rather it is due to the theory that the sun acts a cathode in an electrical process with the heliosphere. It's not about the sun being a solid or a plasma, it's about "current flow" and the sun discharging to the heliosphere. It's the "Electric Universe" aspect his solar theory that makes it a "Birkeland solar model", not the solid surface idea.

This is all irrelevant. How could you seriously accept a solar model that does not include all the developments in physics and astronomy (including your passion -- modern solar imaging) of the last hundred years? Think man! Most of our knowledge about the structure of matter, quantum theory, nuclear physics, relativity and the size and structure of the universe was in its infancy when he did his work. Any solar model of Birkelend (assuming he had one) might be marginally closer to reality than the model of Anaxagoras, who reasoned that the sun was a giant flaming ball of metal "even larger than the Peloponnese."
Is this some kind of Mozina hoax that enables your playing silly games with all the people here for your amusement? No intelligent adult could actually believe this kind of crap! Hey, maybe that's ... the answer...(?)
 
Last edited:
This is all irrelevant.

PS, the difference between an "electric universe" and a sterile "magnetic" one is not "irrelevant". It's *huge*.

Birkeland's whole concept was based on 'current flow" and "electricity" and "anodes" and "cathodes". These are the core components of a "Birkeland solar model". With them he created "aurora" around "planets". He created a constant flow of both positive and negatively charged particles. He is the grandfather of the "electric sun" model. It's not an insignificant issue, it's a matter of scientific accuracy. This solar model is simply a "subset" of those specifications. My papers actually describe a different "subset" of a Birkeland solar model that has a "rigid" surface not a "solid" surface. It does not matter which of those models you choose, they are both "Birkeland solar models". This is an issue of historical accuracy.

How could you seriously accept a solar model that does not include all the developments in physics and astronomy (including your passion -- modern solar imaging) of the last hundred years?

The same way I could toss out all those beautiful epicycles related to the movements of planets around the Earth. If the math isn't all that useful, what's the point of clinging to it?

Think man! Most of our knowledge about the structure of matter, quantum theory, nuclear physics, relativity and the size and structure of the universe was in its infancy when he did his work.

You really should do yourself a favor PS and actually read his work sometime. It was totally first class, and it more fully explains his methods and his results better than I could ever hope to do.

Any solar model of Birkelend (assuming he had one)

Did you read the NY times article I posted earlier? I can round it up again for you if you like? What do you mean "if he had one"? Talk about pure denial.

might be marginally closer to reality than the model of Anaxagoras, who reasoned that the sun was a giant flaming ball of metal "even larger than the Peloponnese."

So if I'm right, Anaxagoras should get the historical credit on the "solid surface" concept, and Birkeland should get the credit for the cathode in space part, right? Why should *I* personally get credit for either idea?

Is this some kind of Mozina hoax that enables your playing silly games with all the people here for your amusement? Nobody could actually believe this kind of crap!

No PS, this is a matter of historical accuracy and historical reality. Birkeland certainly had a "solar model". I posted the NY times article for you didn't I? It wasn't limited to a "solid surface" concept, it was related to an "electric universe" concept. I'm personally willing to go with "solid" or "rigid". I'm completely and utterly "flexible". Both of those solar models however are "subsets" of a "Birkeland solar model". We could apply a Birkland solar model to a Anaxagoras type sphere. We could also apply it to a plasma layered and "rigid" type surface too. There are a million different possible ways we might try to express a "cathode solar model" but if there is current flow from the sun to the heliosphere, then they are all "Birkeland solar models"!
 
Last edited:
Im sorry to butt in but what is your definition of the difference between "solid" and "rigid", MM?

Also, I can find information on Birkelands work on aurora but I can't find where he describes the sun as a "solid" or a "rigid" object. If thats the NY times article would you repost the link?

Thanks,
Lurker
 
Im sorry to butt in but what is your definition of the difference between "solid" and "rigid", MM?

A solid surface model is simply a solid surface model, volcanoes and everything. A "rigid" solar model is a plasma layered solar model, with more dense and "rigid" plasma under the surface of the neon layer you call a photosphere, but it may not have a "solid" surface.

Also, I can find information on Birkelands work on aurora but I can't find where he describes the sun as a "solid" or a "rigid" object. If thats the NY times article would you repost the link?

Thanks,
Lurker

To my knowledge Birkeland never committed himself to either a solid surface or a plasma type environment. He understood the behaviors of plasma and it's not clear to me that he "wrote off' any idea. All his physical experiments were based on a metallic sphere, so there is a an "element" of assumption that one tends to come to. In other words he does tend to imply it's probably a metallic iron sphere, but like any good scientist, he left all options on the table. He was far more interested in promoting the electrical aspects (cathode aspects) of his solar theory, not necessarily trying to limit the concept to a solid surface solar model.
 
A solid surface model is simply a solid surface model, volcanoes and everything. A "rigid" solar model is a plasma layered solar model, with more dense and "rigid" plasma under the surface of the neon layer you call a photosphere, but it may not have a "solid" surface.

Oh! So now the neon is meant to be the photosphere? The famous 2x10^30 watts worth of visible-wavelength radiation, whose spectrum is that of a 6000K blackbody with absorption lines---you say that's coming from the neon layer? Please confirm.

Also: after defining "rigid", please cite a known law of physics that says that a dense plasma is "rigid". (You can't---you're making it up. Rigid my foot.)
 
Oh! So now the neon is meant to be the photosphere? The famous 2x10^30 watts worth of visible-wavelength radiation, whose spectrum is that of a 6000K blackbody with absorption lines---you say that's coming from the neon layer? Please confirm.

The "spectrum" comes from all the plasma layers ben, not just one layer as in your model. It's simply the sum total of all the light from the sun.

Also: after defining "rigid", please cite a known law of physics that says that a dense plasma is "rigid". (You can't---you're making it up. Rigid my foot.)

Compared to something like a wispy light hydrogen plasma in the corona radiating at a million degrees, a 5800K dense iron plasma might be a lot more "rigid" in terms of the longevity of the structures seen in that plasma. The "longevity" of the "structures" we see might be very different.
 
I am not sure I understand how a layered plasma can be considered rigid nor do I understand how you can say Birkeland implies the sun is a metalic iron sphere other than he used a metalic sphere in his lab. But I'll just shut up and listen. I should be honest though and say I don't see how your model improves on current solar science. Is this about removing dark matter and dark energy from astrophysics or about something else? (No need to answer, I don't have the education or experience to make any judgements on this issue.)
 
Michael Mozina said:
The lurkers should understand that a Birkeland solar model is not dependent upon a solid surface, rather it is an electrically oriented solar model where the sun acts as a "cathode" in space, and discharges to the heliosphere. A Birkeland solar model is not limited to either a solid or a plasma cathode. It could be applied to either a solid surface model, or a plasma cathode model. What makes the solar model on my website a "Birkeland solar model" is not the idea it has a solid crust, but rather it is due to the theory that the sun acts a cathode in an electrical process with the heliosphere. It's not about the sun being a solid or a plasma, it's about "current flow" and the sun discharging to the heliosphere. It's the "Electric Universe" aspect his solar theory that makes it a "Birkeland solar model", not the solid surface idea.
This is all irrelevant. How could you seriously accept a solar model that does not include all the developments in physics and astronomy (including your passion -- modern solar imaging) of the last hundred years? Think man! Most of our knowledge about the structure of matter, quantum theory, nuclear physics, relativity and the size and structure of the universe was in its infancy when he did his work. Any solar model of Birkelend (assuming he had one) might be marginally closer to reality than the model of Anaxagoras, who reasoned that the sun was a giant flaming ball of metal "even larger than the Peloponnese."
Is this some kind of Mozina hoax that enables your playing silly games with all the people here for your amusement? No intelligent adult could actually believe this kind of crap! Hey, maybe that's ... the answer...(?)
I have a suggestion.

Whenever you read something by MM, here in the Science (etc) section of JREF, work out what you think the key terms and phrases are.

Then ask him what he means by each of them.

For example:

* what do you mean by "model"? (recall Zig's question "A mathematical model is an oversimplification. But a model with no math is... what, exactly?" I don't think MM answered this, so I doubt that anyone (except perhaps MM) knows what he means by "model")

* what does "acts as a "cathode" in space" mean? Specifically, what is a ""cathode""? (MM uses words in unconventional ways, so whenever you read one that is enclosed in double quotes, you can be 99.9% certain it has a special meaning)

* what does "discharges to the heliosphere" mean? (as with "photosphere" - where most of us *ASSUMED* it was the surface of the Sun, where the white light we see is emitted (or, perhaps, where the optical depth is ~1, in the optical waveband continuum), but we learned, dozens of pages later, that MM means something completely different - so too with "heliosphere" and "discharge"?)

* what is a "plasma cathode model"? (even if "model" is something MM cannot define, as a general term, perhaps he can say what this is)

* What do you mean by "theory", as in "the theory that the sun acts a cathode in an electrical process with the heliosphere"? Specifically, where is such a theory published?

* What are "electrical processes"?

I think the key to understanding the ideas MM posts lies in understanding what he actually means, and how the words which look like ones from the pages of standard physics textbooks are related to their meanings there.

Without at least this common basis of understanding, I suggest that no meaningful dialogue can take place.
 
Last edited:
Humanzee I am not sure I understand how a layered plasma can be considered rigid nor do I understand how you can say Birkeland implies the sun is a metalic iron sphere other than he used a metalic sphere in his lab. But I'll just shut up and listen. I should be honest though and say I don't see how your model improves on current solar science. Is this about removing dark matter and dark energy from astrophysics or about something else? (No need to answer, I don't have the education or experience to make any judgements on this issue.)

That's okay, you're probably several orders of magnitude closer in your understanding of solar physics than Michael. Hell, I know school children with a more sophisticated understanding of the complete and utter impossibility of this "solar model" whatever it is that he's proposing.

Never mind the fact that he dodges every available question which would discount his idea, never mind that there are no tests that can possibly prove this model as true, never mind that it defies several laws of the universe that we have known and understood for centuries. Just take it on Faith that Mr Mozina knows what he's talking about.

I see Mr Mozina constantly deride mathematical descriptions of the physics as "math bunnies". Michael, physics IS mathematics. Without maths you have no physics or predictions which can possibly be verified. So long as you ignore the herd of elephants in the phone booth you won't be getting far with this idea. Considering it's been going for several years now though it would appear that this doesn't matter much.
 
I am not sure I understand how a layered plasma can be considered rigid

Think in terms of "change/time". The structures we see in the convecting layer tend to come and go in roughly 8 minute intervals, whereas the "structures" seen in deeper layers tend to be more 'persistent' over time.
tsunami1.JPG

http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com/images/vquake1.avi

Watch the wave pass over the area I circled. That "persistence' of the structure I circled is unlike the 8 minute persistence of the structures of the surface of the photosphere.

nor do I understand how you can say Birkeland implies the sun is a metalic iron sphere other than he used a metalic sphere in his lab. But I'll just shut up and listen.

Well, you shouldn't simply assume it applies to one or the other. He seemed to go to great lengths to *NOT* insist it had to be one way or the other.


I should be honest though and say I don't see how your model improves on current solar science. Is this about removing dark matter and dark energy from astrophysics or about something else? (No need to answer, I don't have the education or experience to make any judgements on this issue.)

It explains solar wind acceleration and IMO it explains coronal loop activity a lot more elegantly than standard theory. It's a an 'empirical' sort of theory so it can all be "lab tested' and has in fact been "lab tested" to a great degree. The notion that we live inside of an electric universe might indeed "do away with" many of the enigma's of space that we now attribute to "dark" things. IMO that would also be a huge step forward in terms of empirical physics.
 
That's okay, you're probably several orders of magnitude closer in your understanding of solar physics than Michael. Hell, I know school children with a more sophisticated understanding of the complete and utter impossibility of this "solar model" whatever it is that he's proposing.

Never mind the fact that he dodges every available question which would discount his idea, never mind that there are no tests that can possibly prove this model as true, never mind that it defies several laws of the universe that we have known and understood for centuries. Just take it on Faith that Mr Mozina knows what he's talking about.

I see Mr Mozina constantly deride mathematical descriptions of the physics as "math bunnies". Michael, physics IS mathematics. Without maths you have no physics or predictions which can possibly be verified. So long as you ignore the herd of elephants in the phone booth you won't be getting far with this idea. Considering it's been going for several years now though it would appear that this doesn't matter much.
This is pretty insightful.

Without any math, with nearly all important questions unanswered, and with so many words having idiosyncratic meanings, readers have no choice but to take what MM writes on faith.

And without the quantifications that MM so strongly spurns (or denounces, I think he's a bit uncertain), discussions (if they can be called that) degenerate rapidly into a fuzzy mess at best (and incoherent gibberish at worst) - almost all the key words MM uses have meaning only in reference to numbers, quantities, formulae, equations, and so on.

What I find particularly ironic is MM's insistence on "empirical observation" (or some such); most of the square arrays of triplets that he posts so often (i.e. RBG images), on which his ideas depend, can be understood only by accepting the dozens of person-years of math-based work that went into their creation!
 
Quote:
How could you seriously accept a solar model that does not include all the developments in physics and astronomy (including your passion -- modern solar imaging) of the last hundred years?
The same way I could toss out all those beautiful epicycles related to the movements of planets around the Earth. If the math isn't all that useful, what's the point of clinging to it?

Please stop using this preposterous analogy. Even you must know that the epicycles model has been thoroughly falsified! What aspects of the developments in physics and astronomy of the last hundred years have you falsified? What "math isn't all that useful" and how have you demonstrated that? Your lack of quantitative skills reveal you to be an impostor. These kinds of comments undermine any sliver of credibility you imagine you might have and make you look downright silly!
No one is going to forget this (now infamous) hollow threat:
Originally Posted by Michael Mozina
Now that I finally understand how to go about destroying mainstream theory, I'll start working on it. I think *THAT* little project might even motivate me to do a little math.
Wake up, look in the mirror and be honest with yourself: You have been exposed!
 
Delusional "Science"

If I want to win over the long haul, I cannot afford to foolishly play into your mathematical strengths. I need you to eventually play into my strengths, specifically the power of “pure observation” in satellite imagery. This particular crew seems to have forgotten all about the need for observation and the role of observation in science. SDO has provided me with a truly golden opportunity to test my theory for real and to make my case, and I intend to “seize the day” to the best of my abilities.

I think perhaps this paragraph illustrates how seriously delusional is Mozina's approach to what he, and he alone, calls "science".

To begin with, there is no way that what Mozina is doing can be considered as "observation" in any serious sense of the word. He is not looking at images, he is looking at press release pictures, created by artists for visual impact. The pictures he is looking at are devoid of science data. No serious scientist would ever do what Mozina is doing, and no serious scientist has ever done what Mozina is doing. As many have already pointed out ad nauseam, Mozina cannot even tell the difference between a real 3 dimensional object and a flat 2 dimensional picture of same. One suspects he even adds Euclid to the long list of rejected "math bunnies" (see, e.g., Math Bunnies & Image Bunnies, Science by Pretty Picture Fails Again II and a ream of posts from other users). It's bad enough when you think that literally everything in a science image is physically real (hint: it's not necessarily so), but when you actually believe that a press release image has no artifacts in it at all, then you are really "out to lunch".

Second, his comment that "This particular crew seems to have forgotten all about the need for observation and the role of observation in science" is directly falsified by the many references to real observation contained in posts in this and other threads. Indeed, it is Mozina who in fact rejects observation and its role in science. Mozina rejects direct observations of the X-ray limb of the sun which prove that the transition zone & chromosphere are unambiguously located above the photosphere (see, e.g., The Solar EUV Radius, The Solar EUV Radius II). Mozina rejects direct observations which allow for the reconstruction of the photosphere & transition region temperature profiles, proving that the temperature increases with depth (see, e.g., Iron Sun Surface Thermodynamically Impossible, The Transition Region). In another thread, Mozina rejected controlled laboratory observations of magnetic reconnection in laboratory plasma (see, e.g., Comments on Magnetic Reconnection, Comments on Magnetic Reconnection III, Magnetic Reconnection Redux X). He does not examine or consider the content of the experiments or observations is any way. He rejects them at once, for the sole & single reason that they do not support his own subjective preconception. That is neither science by any stretch, nor is it even particularly intelligent.

Thirdly, we simply note in passing that Mozina rejects all things mathematical, which is an instantly fatal blunder to any allegedly scientific argument (see, e.g., Math Bunnies & Image Bunnies).

Finally, let us combine Mozina's pathological fear of mathematics with the intriguing concept introduced here of "pure observation". This may be shocking news for some of you, but there is no such thing as a pure observation. Set aside for the moment that what Mozina does with his pretty pictures is not "observation" at all, pure or otherwise. Images returned from any spacecraft are not like pictures from the glory days of film, nor are they quite like the pictures that come out of your digital camera. This is especially the case for X-ray images, such as the SDO images Mozina uses, because the kind of direct optics and CCD systems that work for optical and infrared cameras don't work for beans with X-rays. X-ray telescopes require grazing incidence optics. The pixels and images made from them have to be assembled based on a mathematical model of the observing instrument. The instrument actually measures currents induced by the incident photons. The currents are fit to a model that tells you what input energy will generate the kind of current you measure, which depends on calibration measurements and energy dependent amplification in the instrument. So even if you have a real live science data image, it was still created using math, it's not a simple point and shoot image.

The bottom line is that it is Mozina, and not "this particular crew" who explicitly rejects observation and its role in science. He always rejects observations contrary to his prejudice, and what he does definitely is not observation in any serious sense. It's a good thing Mozina likes to look at images, because unfettered imagination is the only thing he has to offer.
 
The "spectrum" comes from all the plasma layers ben, not just one layer as in your model. It's simply the sum total of all the light from the sun.

Hey, you said that the neon was the photosphere. The photosphere is the thing that emits 6000K visible light. Get your terminology straight.

I can tell you right now what the "sum of all light" from 2000K iron under 200,000K neon looks like. It looks like a bunch of hard-UV neon emission lines on top of a 2000K (i.e. IR-dominated) blackbody. It does not look like a 6000K blackbody. You are guessing---as usual---that some laws of physics you don't even know will magically work out to make your model work. Why?

Compared to something like a wispy light hydrogen plasma in the corona radiating at a million degrees, a 5800K dense iron plasma might be a lot more "rigid" in terms of the longevity of the structures seen in that plasma. The "longevity" of the "structures" we see might be very different.

Nonsense; what does longevity have to do with rigidity? Hurricane Katrina maintained a distinctive structure for two weeks; was it rigid? When Comet Shoemaker-Levy struck Jupiter, its "blotches" were visible in the cloud tops for months; the blotches remained measurably warm for weeks. Is this what your whole model is based on, Michael? "When I see something that doesn't dissipate instantly, I just assume it's a solid"?
 
Please stop using this preposterous analogy. Even you must know that the epicycles model has been thoroughly falsified!

Ya, and IMO, that is about to happen to the SSM in SDO images.

What aspects of the developments in physics and astronomy of the last hundred years have you falsified?

Me personally? None. How many BB theories have I seen bite the dust in my day? When did they stuff DE in there again? That's at least twice now including Guth's kludge.

What "math isn't all that useful" and how have you demonstrated that?

I can't say I have yet. I'm looking forward to that opportunity however in full sphere high resolution.

Your lack of quantitative skills reveal you to be an impostor.

PS, there simply hasn't been the opportunity to quantify a lot of this theory based on present technology. I'm still trying to pin down the distance to that rigid feature in Kosovichev's video. I"m not trying to change the world by myself overnight. When my math skill *and the images* will produce something really powerful, I'll be happy to work on it. It's not my most important goal in life however. :) I haven't ever claimed to be anything other than an amateur astronomers, so I fail to see why you believe I could ever be an impostor. :)


These kinds of comments undermine any sliver of credibility you imagine you might have and make you look downright silly!
No one is going to forget this (now infamous) hollow threat:

Wake up, look in the mirror and be honest with yourself: You have been exposed!

I must say that the SDO images (and life) got me side tracked, but there must be more than a few ways to falsify that "opacity" claim, and I will figure out a way to do it. I guess you guys expect me to move at an entirely different pace with something I might publish than what the mainstream might try to achieve. When did I even finally even recognize how vulnerable the SSM was in that respect? Give it time PS, give it time.
 
The terms Michael uses, the definitions of which he clearly does not understand include, but are not limited to:

  • photosphere
  • chromosphere
  • opaque
  • limb darkening
  • idiosyncratic
  • empirical
  • solar model

Blackbody, and any terms or phrases including blackbody.
 
Where in Birkeland's book does he state that the Sun is a metal globe

Perhaps you could help clear things up for the lurkers if you could provide a quote from Birkeland where he says the sun has a rigid surface or layer. A sentence or paragraph ought to do it, I don't want to attempt to infer it from reading a whole book.
FYI Marcus,
Michael Mozina has been lying about the contents of Birkeland's book for many months on this forum (and perhaps years on other forums).

If anyone is interested, the full text of his book "Norwegian Aurora Polaris Expedition, 1901-1902" Volumes I and II is available for free. It is a 158 MB PDF file.
The stupidity of lying about the contents of a book that is freely available is obvious.

The pertinent questions about his lies and misinterpretations about Birkeland's book from Micheal Mozina's iron crust has been debunked! are
He will of course ignore this question as well and continue to lie about the contents of Birkeland's book:

First asked 12 May 2010
Michael Mozina,
Where in Birkeland's book does he state that the Sun is a metal globe?
Where is your iron crust fantasy* in his book?
Where is your mass separation fantasy* in his book?

* Micheal Mozina's iron crust has been debunked!
The fact that it fails many other observations (an iron crust at a temperature of > 9400 K :jaw-dropp ) and predicts absolutely nothing just makes it a joke. See the over 60 questions that Michael Mozina is incapable of answering.
 
http://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/docs/00/25/55/64/PDF/ajp-jp4199707C408.pdf

The lurkers should understand that a Birkeland solar model is not dependent upon a solid surface, rather it is an electrically oriented solar model where the sun acts as a "cathode" in space, and discharges to the heliosphere. A Birkeland solar model is not limited to either a solid or a plasma cathode. It could be applied to either a solid surface model, or a plasma cathode model. What makes the solar model on my website a "Birkeland solar model" is not the idea it has a solid crust, but rather it is due to the theory that the sun acts a cathode in an electrical process with the heliosphere. It's not about the sun being a solid or a plasma, it's about "current flow" and the sun discharging to the heliosphere. It's the "Electric Universe" aspect his solar theory that makes it a "Birkeland solar model", not the solid surface idea.
Okay, so you're not claiming that Birkeland believed in your iron sun, and therefore not defaming him as being clueless about thermodynamics. Fair enough. The only problem is, I could have sworn you invoked his name as believing in the iron sun before.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom